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host 03-03-2007 01:16 PM

1992 Redux: Will "it's the economy, stupid", Be The Big Campaign Issue?
 
This was "the news" on thursday:
Quote:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...8EF19A722BA%7D
New Century upgraded at Bear Stearns

By Alistair Barr, MarketWatch
Last Update: 4:19 PM ET Mar 1, 2007

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- New Century Financial Corp. <b>was upgraded Thursday by analysts at Bear Stearns, saying the risk of the subprime lender's shares falling further is limited by the potential for an acquisition of the struggling business.</b>
Shares of New Century (NEW :

News , chart , profile , more
Last: 14.65-1.20-7.57%
4:03pm 03/02/2007
were lifted to peer perform from underperform by Scott Coren and Michael Nannizzi at Bear Stearns.
The shares climbed almost 3%to $15.78 during afternoon trading Thursday. They've still slumped almost 50% so far this year due to signs of a credit crunch in the subprime-mortgage industry.
Subprime mortgages are offered to home buyers who fail to meet the strictest lending standards. Companies like New Century that specialize in these types of loans have suffered as housing prices stopped rising and interest rates climbed from record lows. See full story. ....
....and yesterday.....just a day later:
Quote:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...t=MostReadHome
New Century says it faces criminal probe
Subprime-mortgage lender warns it will likely breach lending covenant

By John Letzing & Alistair Barr, MarketWatch
Last Update: 9:04 PM ET Mar 2, 2007

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- New Century Financial Corp. said late Friday that it's facing a federal criminal probe and will likely breach a major lending covenant with its financial backers, <b>bringing into question the survival of the second-largest U.S. subprime-mortgage lender.</b>
The U.S. Attorney's Office for the Central District of California is conducting a federal criminal inquiry into trading in New Century securities as well as accounting errors, the company wrote in a regulatory filing late Friday.
The Securities and Exchange Commission also is looking into the company, as is the regulatory arm of the New York Stock Exchange, New Century disclosed. The company added that it is complying with all three inquiries.
Shares of New Century (NEW :
new century financial corp m com
News , chart , profile , more
Last: 14.65-1.20-7.57%
4:03pm 03/02/2007

NEW14.65, -1.20, -7.6% ) <b>were down almost 25% in after-hours trading Friday at about $11, after falling more than 7% in the regular session to $14.65. .....</b>
My observations are that is possible that Bear Stearns had some large holders of <b>NEW</b> that needed to unload their shares before the impending news, hence, the "upgrade".
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/1y/n/new">
It is not as if "the news" was unknowable:
comments in reaction to the 02/04/07 New Century Financial conference call:
Quote:

http://forum.themarkettraders.com/re.../3023#msg-3023
....Financial Fantasy Land

I listened to the New Century Financial conference call today, and I'm convinced the executives of that company are from another planet. I think most of the analysts who called in would agree with me. They seem to be from a fantasy world where financial results according to GAAP are all that matters, and to the extent they can manipulate earnings, they are able to manipulate the truth.

When the call started, the stock was already down about 3.7%, having missed their estimates for the first time in ages. As the call went on and one amazing revelation after another came out, the stock kept dropping and now is down about 10%. Among the things that were revealed:

<b>1. They borrow $1 Billion for 1 day every quarter so that they can show that Cash on their balance sheet.

The Billion dollars they borrow for a day is to help them "explain" their financial situation better. If they didn't borrow that money, then people might be confused and think they didn't have that much cash.</b> As we all know, the amount of cash you own is of course equal to the amount of money people are willing to loan you. We should <b>thank them for simplifying their accounting for us by borrowing money they don't really need right now and putting it where we can see it on their balance sheet.


2. They sell mortgages to themselves because they can report higher gains on the sales than if they sold them on the open market.

They were especially proud of becoming a REIT and all the imaginary benefits that bestowed on their results.</b> While selling mortgages from their lending unit to their REIT unit resulted in nice gains on their income statement, the gains weren't taxable because they weren't real. Talk about the best of both worlds!


3. They aren't assuming any losses on certain portions of their loan portfolios now because most defaults occur later in the life of the loans.

The business of profiting from making bad loans depends on lending more money each and every quarter. People don't usually buy homes if they are already in deep financial trouble. It takes them awhile to get in trouble, so new loans rarely default. Therefore, new loans don't need to allow for losses because losses won't happen until the future. Since there's no guarantee there will even be a future, what's the point in allowing for such losses anyway?


4. They lowered their assumptions of future defaults which boosted earnings by 8 cents per share, and they now think $90 Million is enough reserves for future defaults on $19 Billion worth of loans.

Sure, some of their loans are delinquent, and while its nice to report late fees on these loans as profits, some allowance should probably be made for the remote possibility that there is a tiny inkling of a chance that they might lose money on these a minute faction of these loans, so it wouldn't do too much harm if they reserved a little bit of money for these loans when earnings are good. If they ever have a need, they can lower their assumptions to inflate their earnings, like they did this quarter.

What's that? All you banking analysts don't think they're setting aside enough reserves? By an order of magnitude? Well, let me assure you that their experience during the last 8 years (the greatest housing boom, HELOC expansion and cash out refinancing surge of all time) indicates that loans almost never go bad. All they have to do is rely on past results to indicate what will happen forever into the future. So obviously you are all wrong!


5. They believe that their customers can handle a 34% increase in mortgage fees on their ARMS.

20% of their loans over the past 2 quarters have been interest only, so obviously their customers understand interest. Besides, they have a lot of customers who actually have decent credit ratings. These types of people know how to budget and plan for the future.


6. They believe that housing prices can't go down by 10% and even if they do, their customers won't walk away from loans.

It's never happened before on a national level, and they say that all the talk about a housing bubble is dying down. Besides, they aren't making any more land and housing prices always go up. Plus, once customers learn to account like New Century, nobody will ever have to lose money again!


7. The compression of margins is temporary.

As rising short term rates crashed head long into falling 10-year bond rates, and as increasing competitiveness among mortgage lenders crashed head long into declining demand, margins were squeezed. But relax, this is temporary. It will only last until the weak links are squeezed out of the market. NEW tried to "lead the way" by raising rates higher, but their competitors didn't follow. When they lowered rates back down again, their competitors lowered rates further. Even though demand for loans is still slowing, and the lenders all depend on increasing originations to avoid blowing up their business models, the pressure on margins must decrease!


8. They can hedge away the risk of rising interest rates.

They buy derivatives that pay off if interest rates rise. If rates rise slowly over time, they get clobbered like CFC did. If rates rise rapidly they get to report a nice short term gain, then buy new derivatives at higher prices. If interest rates rise so quickly that their counterparties can't make their payments, then the housing market is doomed anyway, so there's no point in worrying about that single aspect of a meltdown.


In a sense, the views of the NEW executives typifies what is wrong with our entire financial system. Risk has been imagined away, and the resulting imaginary profits are taken as reality. Level upon level of creditors has leveraged themselves into the false reality that will one day come crashing down. We have:

1. Interest rates at suppressed levels because the Fed has injected record amounts of liquidity and foreign central banks have bought treasuries disproportionately to keep their currencies week, while propping up a US Government that is bound for bankruptcy.

2. We have homeowners borrowing more than they can afford at these temporarily reduced adjustable rates who are bound to default once rising payments and their inability to borrow new funds push them past the breaking point.

3. We have crazed mortgage lenders like NEW, CFC, IFC, NFI and others making bad loans at an accelerating rates to stave off the inevitable.

4. We have mutual and pension funds throwing other people's money at the crazed lenders to purchase exploding corporate bonds.

5. We have hedge funds selling derivatives to soak up interest rate risk in search of short term profits and higher NAV based fees.

In short, we have one domino after the next, all lined up ready to topple once the kindness of foreign governments runs out and the unsustainability of our twin deficits comes home to roost and the fantasy world we live in is exposed.
The point of the above info is that the DOW 30 stock index DJIA , experienced it's largest weekly decline in the week that ended yesterday, in the last 42 months...

The fraud at <b>NEW</b>, the second largest US subprime lender, and the sudden, sharp decline in it's stock price, is not an isolated incident. About 25 other sizeable sub-prime lenders have gone out of business or been "absorbed" by other companies, just in the last 10 weeks:
Quote:

http://www.conntact.com/article_page.lasso?id=40702
Mortgage Firm's Implosion Rocks State

Was once-high flying MLN a victim of housing downturn or author of own ills?
<img src="http://www.conntact.com/images/fs_mln.JPG">
Business New Haven
02/19/2007
by Liese Klein
When it's completed, the 310,000-square-foot structure along I-91 in Wallingford will be a showpiece - a striking blend of arched rooflines, cubic office blocks and glass. The building's skeleton is impressive even now as cranes and dozens of workers cluster at the site, at the intersection of I-91 and Route 68.

But in the first weeks of February, workers took down signs trumpeting the future owner of the building - Middletown-based Mortgage Lenders Network (MLN). Even as hardhats braved freezing temperatures to install the structure's environmentally friendly elements, Mortgage Lenders filed for bankruptcy, then revealed its intentions to liquidate.

A company once touted as one of the state's brightest hopes for job growth is now facing complete disintegration, with customers, creditors and employees alike threatening legal action.

MLN officials did not respond to repeated requests for comment.

How did a company that drew Gov. M. Jodi Rell to the groundbreaking of its new headquarters less than a year ago fall so far, so fast?

One clue can be found on a Web site (http://ml-implode.com/) illustrated with big red letters and an image of an explosion: "The Mortgage Lender Implode-O-Meter." The site, run by a self-described "scientist, mathematician, entrepreneur and activist," tracks the fate of the 20 mortgage lenders that have "gone kaput" just since December of last year.

Many of the casualties specialized in so-called sub-prime lending, or mortgage loans to those with poor credit. Sub-prime lending took off in the recent housing boom as a high-risk, yet high-profit niche in an industry with traditionally low margins.

But lenders nationwide who leapt into the sub-prime market are suffering as those homeowners fall behind in a tough housing and job market.
If you believe, as I do, that the mortgage industry, home construction industry, and the residential realty industry, and the speculative financial bubble that grew them since 2001, are responsible for most of the US job "growth", and that MEW (mortgage equity extraction), drive by bubble prices for real estate, driven by lax lending standards, and "interest only", no down payment loans, was the source of the money that drove the spending spree of the past 5 years in the US, since wages remained flat, on average, doesn't it seem likely that "the economy" will be the 2008 presidential campaign issue, as early as late this spring?

I'd also like to discuss what to do about it, both on a personal finance level, and on a macro level....

The_Jazz 03-03-2007 01:28 PM

Host, I find this very interesting from a professional perspective since residential construction currently accounts for about 45% of my income. While it's certainly true that the housing bubble has burst in certain places, what's true about politics - that it's all local - is true about real estate. There are current housing booms in 5 major cities that I deal with on a daily basis that aren't showing any signs of slowing down appreciably. Las Vegas is the most obvious one, especially for condos on the Strip.

That said, I think that you've drawn too narrow a window for a look at the fiscal health of the country. While I agree that the economy could be heading for a downturn, I disagree that the lending standards and housing boom are the cause. If we do see a recession, I think that it would be a minor one at best but the timing would be absolutely crucial for the 2008 election season. We've already seen how foreign regulations can affect our stock market, but the trends that I see in the industrial manufacturing arena don't really lend themselves towards a major recession around the corner. Sales on big-ticket consumer products are going up, and that's my most accurate assessment of national economic health. People are buying more RV's than they did last year, and that's been an excellent barometer for me for the past 10 years.

host 03-03-2007 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz
Host, I find this very interesting from a professional perspective since residential construction currently accounts for about 45% of my income. While it's certainly true that the housing bubble has burst in certain places, what's true about politics - that it's all local - is true about real estate. There are current housing booms in 5 major cities that I deal with on a daily basis that aren't showing any signs of slowing down appreciably. Las Vegas is the most obvious one, especially for condos on the Strip.

That said, I think that you've drawn too narrow a window for a look at the fiscal health of the country. While I agree that the economy could be heading for a downturn, I disagree that the lending standards and housing boom are the cause. If we do see a recession, I think that it would be a minor one at best but the timing would be absolutely crucial for the 2008 election season. We've already seen how foreign regulations can affect our stock market, but the trends that I see in the industrial manufacturing arena don't really lend themselves towards a major recession around the corner. Sales on big-ticket consumer products are going up, and that's my most accurate assessment of national economic health. People are buying more RV's than they did last year, and that's been an excellent barometer for me for the past 10 years.

The_Jazz , I don't take your opinion lightly....you're the professional, while I am a self educated amateur who has intensely focused on the US stock market (before being distracted....to a degree....by the political events...post the November 2000, election....) since taking a "stab" at being a full-time "short term" and "day trader", back in 1997.

That said... I am especially surprised at your much more optimistic opinion than the one I'm currently holding. I view real estate as a "bottom up", demand situation. These sub-prime lenders made it possible for what would have been the "bag holders" of entry level houses, condos, and studio apartments, to unload them at inflated prices to the sub-prime borrowers of New Century, et al. IMO, the new lending "standards", announced to include eliminating zero down payment mortgages to applicants with FICO scores below 700, will kill demand from the "bottom up" and, in much of the country, the "top" of the market has been dead for some time, now:

On friday, I initiated a small "short" position in this one. Icahn's position aside, this is a BK candidate, IMO, and much sooner than the longs in the stock would think:
http://news.google.com/nwshp?ie=UTF-...n&tab=wn&q=wci

Carl Icahn has initiated a fight to take over the board of WCI. That is reason enough for me to protect my stock position by buying put options at a $20 strike price, a few months out....but everyone holding this stock will increasingly feel the need to sell it, I believe.

WCI has ceased building new towers, has tried to sell it's land holding and options, is stuck with more cancellations than closings, and is technically in default on it's loan convenants.

It's not "just in Florida", either......
http://www.wcicommunities.com/

On the conference call, the other day, the management admitted that they have been unable to sell their remaining 29 units at their NJ tower, Watermark:
http://www.wcicommunities.com/defaul...ID=79&vid=1000

Quote:

http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t...business&cid=0
WCI reports quarterly loss, blames Florida housing market
Naples Daily News, FL - Feb 27, 2007
<b>WCI officials withdrew their financial guidance for the year</b> and offered no profit predictions. Going forward, company officials said the focus would be on ...
I'll go so far out on a limb as to say that the participants in your "still booming" real estate markets, do not know that they are "dead men walking",
yet....but this week, the DOW and the S&P behaved as I have expected, and waited for them to behave....

The way that I think this "works" is that the financial markets always end up surprising the maximum number of investors....and it has to be that way. Politicians will always be followers of the trend, not the leaders. Just as with the war in Iraq, and in the GWOT.....unfortunately, the democrat who takes the lead on describing the coming economic decline, and offers a plan to cope with it's effects, will be accused of not "supporting the US consumer".....of "talking the economy down"....etc.

So....either I'm wrong.....or you are. I actually think that your optimism is a "tell" that indicates that there will be much greater damage from the suddenness and the depth of the economic downturn that I am expecting.
On March 13, 2000, the Nasdaq 2000 stock index crossed the 5000 mark, up from a low of 2800, in October, 1999. The Nasdaq ended up retreating to near 1000, by early 2003.

In March 2003, when the DOW had retreated to 7200, I bought a couple of call options on that index. I sold them way too early, at a profit.....the DOW rose to 12,800 recently.....I think that was the high for the DOW for the next few years....

Sept. 1929 Dow = 393 July 1932 Dow = 41 ....and 393 was not surpassed again until....1953.

Not trying to scare you....I am an amateur, I don't have a crystal ball. I'm better at picking market bottoms than tops. If I can share what I'm observing, and my experience with a few interested folks, maybe it'll help....

Elphaba 03-03-2007 04:56 PM

Host, I can't even claim an amateur knowledge of the stockmarket, but I think it is relevent to your discussion that Freddie Mac is refusing to further participate in the subprime lending that grew out of the "bubble."

If the surviving group of subprime lenders are no longer able to bundle and resell to Freddie using their "creative" financing, they too will be risking their own solvency. I find that preferable to citizen funded bailouts any day.

This might be a useful link:

FreddieMac

Will the economy be a central issue in 2008? Greenspan assisted in the stock drop this week by predicting a likely recession by the end of this year. His successor is now doing the 'happy happy' tour to settle down the market investors. It's the middle class that has faired poorly over the last several years and I expect economic issues to be in the forefront soon.

host 03-04-2007 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz
Host, I find this very interesting from a professional perspective since residential construction currently accounts for about 45% of my income. While it's certainly true that the housing bubble has burst in certain places, what's true about politics - that it's all local - is true about real estate. There are current housing booms in 5 major cities that I deal with on a daily basis that aren't showing any signs of slowing down appreciably. Las Vegas is the most obvious one, especially for condos on the Strip.

That said, I think that you've drawn too narrow a window for a look at the fiscal health of the country. While I agree that the economy could be heading for a downturn, I disagree that the lending standards and housing boom are the cause.....

The_Jazz, the downturn, both in average selling price and numbers of new building permits issued and new homes sold, is reported to be a nationwide phenomena. The statistics of the decline are supportive of my argument, both in trend and in severity. New data comes with the consideration that most of the country experienced much milder weather than ususal, throughout the Dec. thru Jan. period.

The Las Vegas strip proximity is unique because it is a "one of a kind" locale with a unique economic base that receives more international financial investment, interest, and tourist/gambling revenue than it's closest US competitor, New York City, does.

http://www.lvcva.com/getfile/Histori....pdf?fileID=80
Las Vegas 2006 visitors: 38,914,889 Visitor dollar contribution: $39.4 billion

Tourist spending rose nearly 25 percent in Las Vegas since 2001, from $31.9 billion.

The population of Las Vegas "proper", is still under 600,000, yet revenue from tourism is more than 50 percent above the revenue received by New York, a city with 12 times the Las Vegas population.

Even with all that money flowing in, the Businessweek forecast for the Las Vegas real estate market as a whole, is dismal for 2007:
Quote:

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06...7/index_01.htm
Real Estate
Las Vegas

2006 Median Home Price: $324,000
2007 Median Home Price: $292,000
1-yr Change: -9.9%

Home Price Index 1-yr Change: -9.2%
Housing Starts 1-yr Change: -12.4%
Quote:

http://www.nycvisit.com/content/index.cfm?pagePkey=1817
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
December�27, 2006
No. 451
www.nyc.gov�

MAYOR BLOOMBERG AND NYC & COMPANY ANNOUNCE
44 MILLION TOURISTS VISITED NEW YORK CITY IN 2006,
PUMPING $24 BILLION INTO ECONOMY........
Even if the price increases in the few areas of the country mentioned here, continue, is the population in those unaffected areas, large enough to offset the job losses and business and lender failures, everywhere else?
Quote:

http://www.forbes.com/2007/01/25/str...strongest.html
America's Best & Worst Housing Markets
Matt Woolsey, 01.25.07, 3:00 PM ET

Talk about being in the right place at the right time.

While speculators and flippers in places such as Boston and San Diego are running for cover, in other parts of the country they are basking in robust residential sales. Third-quarter median home prices last year climbed 14.6% in Seattle, Wash.; 14.3% in El Paso, Texas; and 12.3% in Portland, Ore.

They also increased by roughly 5% in Houston, Texas; Los Angeles, Calif.; Austin, Texas; Jacksonville, Fla.; and Charlotte, N.C., over the year before, according to the National Association of Realtors....
You said that real estate acivity is "local", but as Elphaba pointed out, the market for the loans that are made and "packaged" into MBS for Freddie and Fannie to buy and attempt to resell to investors, is a narrow, national pair of two giant GSE's with increasingly questionable portfolios of the MBS's to sell to increasingly wary investors.

New Century Financial and the other large subprime lending firms were national in their business niche, and as they fail, they won't be replaced. It doesn't matter much if the buying and selling is all local, if the financing of mortgages and the lending guidelines are from a narrow, uniform, national source and structure. More failures and foreclosures in the more numerous declining local markets will restrict lending, and even appraisal activity in the as yet unaffected locales....
Quote:

http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/p...703010355/1002
March 01. 2007 3:30AM
Sales of new homes fall 16.6 percent

Sales of newly constructed homes plummeted 16.6 percent in January from the preceding month. That was the largest decline since January 1994, when sales slid by 23.8 percent, the U.S. Department of Commerce reported Wednesday.

The decline in January - much steeper than analysts were anticipating - left sales at a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 937,000, the lowest level since February 2003. Sales fell sharply in all parts of the country, including the South, which saw a drop 9.7 percent.

The national pace of new-home sales was 20.1 percent lower than January 2006. And the supply of new single-family homes on the market rose to 6.8 months' worth from 5.3 months' in January 2006.

Prices also were down from a year earlier. The median sales price of a new home - where half sell for more and half for less - was $239,800 in January, a 2.1 percent decline from a year earlier.

In contrast, existing-home sales in January rose 3 percent from December 2006, by the biggest amount in two years, the National Association of Realtors reported Tuesday. But the median price of an existing single-family home fell from a year earlier, to $210,600, the sixth straight monthly decline from year-earlier levels, the trade group said.

New-home sales figures are based upon contracts signed, while existing-home sales reflect actual closings.
Quote:

http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/16/news...arts/index.htm
Housing starts plunge
Housing starts fall much more than forecast, lowest level since '97; permits also fall as single-family permits hit 6-year low.
By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer
February 16 2007: 11:52 AM EST

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Housing starts plunged in January to the slowest pace in more than nine years

.....New homes started in January fell 14.3 percent to an annual rate of 1.41 million from the 1.64 million pace in December, the Census Bureau reported Friday. Economists surveyed by Briefing.com had forecast a 1.6 million rate for January.
Housing starts fell to the lowest pace since August 1997 in January.

The last time starts fell to a pace this slow was August 1997.

The number is not only well below the December pace, but it is 22 percent below the average for all of 2006, when housing was already slowing down, and about 32 percent below the record building pace through all of 2005.
Latest prices in your hometown

The slump was widespread. Only the Northeast, the smallest region in terms of new home construction, posted a rise in starts compared to December. But starts were down 15.2 percent in the Midwest, 11.2 percent in the South and 28.5 percent in the West.

Applications for new home permits, which is generally viewed as a measure of builders' confidence in the market, fell 2.8 percent to an annual 1.57 million rate from 1.61 million a month earlier, which was a bit below economists' forecast of a 1.59 million pace.

The housing permit reading was helped by a second, straight month of strong permit application for buildings with five or more units. The permits for single-family homes fell 4 percent to a six-year low.....
This gentleman sums up my argument better than I could:
Quote:

http://www.safehaven.com/article-6603.htm
December 29, 2006
............Real Estate and the Post-Crash Economy
By Barry Ritholtz

The Housing boom and bust have been page-one news for what seems like years now. Is there anyone left in the country who doesn't know about the huge run up in home prices during 2002-06, and the subsequent "correction?"

My guess is no one. What most people may not be aware of, however, is just how unusual residential real estate has been in the current cycle. The housing boom has played an enormous role, with few truly appreciating the outsized contributions the "Real Estate industrial complex" has played in the recovery and expansion. It can politely be described as "atypical."

Since the recession ended in 2001, Real Estate has been crucial in enabling enormous consumer spending, and helping to create many new jobs. These two factors have been the primary drivers of the post-crash economy. With this economic expansion now entering its 4th year, the cooling real estate market is increasingly presenting new risks. With the peak of the boom long since past, the current inventory build up, sales slow down, and price decreases are starting to take their toll on economic activity. Given how extraordinary the boom was, we may not be in for a run-of-the-mill downturn.

Few investors seem to have fully considered the impact the boom and subsequent bust will have - for the real estate market, to equities, and to the overall economy. Today's commentary aims to correct that. We want to put Housing's surge into the broader context of this business cycle, and examine what the slowdown will mean to various economically sensitive sectors. To do that, we will look at:

- How this expansionary cycle got started;
- Why this post-recession cycle has been so unusual;
- How this housing market has been "backwards"
- Where these factors are impacting consumption, the economy, and equities.

The Background......

eribrav 03-04-2007 04:53 AM

We are headed for a major flame-out in the housing market, and much of what's already been posted above clearly explains why.

But to get back to the original question: Iraq has been such a major catastrophe for the United States that it will be the major issue in the next election. I don't think that economics can trump it.

The_Jazz 03-04-2007 07:41 AM

Host, thanks for the well-thought out responses. While I certainly agree that there are a whole bunch of markets either in the process of or long overdue for a bubble burst, I am again going to point out that all real estate is local.

First, let me define my terms. In my world, a "bubble burst" means that housing stock is either stagnant or depreciating in value. With that in mind, I think that the very first sign that a specific market is in trouble is an inability to sell new units (almost always condos) in smaller metropolitan areas. Your North Bergen, NJ example is a prime example. It is outside of NYC and doesn't have the traditional drawing power of Manhatten.

To elaborate on my "local" thoughts, the flip side is the Las Vegas Strip, which is something that I'm involved in at work literally every day. The new Trump Tower that's going up there sold out in 2 weeks, which is a record. Every other condo/mixed use tower that's broken ground there is at least 85% sold (from what I've heard). I will caution you that I'm working from information provided by my clients, and it's not always accurate.

I saw your stats on Las Vegas, and honestly I've seen them before. I even know why they say what they say. However, I still think that you're looking at too large of a picture. The reason that I specifically said "The Las Vegas Strip" in my original post was that I meant that exact location - not the rest of Las Vegas. I think that I can successfully argue that The Strip is bubble-proof. There are always going to be people looking to buy into those buildings barring any major recession. The rest of Las Vegas is a group of individual neighborhoods - and that's what I mean by "local". While it's painfully obvious that national trends can affect local ones (lending rates being cheif among those), the fact is that there are and always will be certain neighborhoods that will always have high housing prices that will appreciate. The Gold Coast in Chicago or South Beach in Miami immediately spring to mind as other examples.

Then there's the troubling case of Southern California, which has had a housing stock shortage for the past 20 years. There literally aren't enough homes for people who want to buy them. The big problem is that there's a lot of substandard housing being built there (and several other venues), but that's not going to slow the market down. However, I do want to make that point, since I have a feeling that it's going to be very relavent in the next 4 years, especially for non-California construction (oddly enough). I make this point since I know that as soon as the economy turns there will be a huge wave of construction defect lawsuit filed around the country for substandard construction.

Cynthetiq 03-04-2007 08:08 AM

I happen to own property in Vegas, as do my parents. We invested there in the late 90s as costs for property where "cheap" compared to other parts of the nation. My $60k condo is now $180k outpacing my NYC coop by leaps and bounds.

As a landlord I rent out the condo at a reasonable profit below what market rate is since IMO the market rate is quite absurd. I had never raised rent and make a modest $100 profit each month, I had to reduce my rent last year by $75 to attract a new renter. Even if I rent it at a break even point I know that in the end I still come out ahead something that other investors are not as interested in.

That is my history of LV, so even if I live in NYC, I pay close attention to the LV housing market. A few of the high rises that were touted looking for investors did not ever break ground one comes to mind is the Ivana Trump building.

The housing market in LV has definitely cooled but it had to, a place cannot lay claim to biggest growth every year. This doesn't apply to just the housing market but any industry, sector, stock, or company.

As for the substandard construction, that has happened in Las Vegas as well, many HomeOwners Associations suing builders for later phases that were not up to par with original first phase buildings.

ratbastid 03-04-2007 08:34 AM

The economy only looks "good" from certain broad measures. The fact is, people on the middle-to-lower end of the income scale are worse off than they've been in decades--and that's the vast majority of Americans.

That said, while I think the economy will be a major issue in '08, it won't be the #1 issue. That spot is reserved for US international relations issues, headlined by the Iraq quagmire.

dksuddeth 03-04-2007 12:17 PM

we're missing a third option, 'it's the government, stupid!'

host 03-04-2007 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth
we're missing a third option, 'it's the government, stupid!'

From my closed, "Reds" thread:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...95&postcount=1
Quote:

.....Not only was Williams very upset and disgusted with the oppression against his people, but as with many, felt that the Vietnam war was a great wrongness. Williams didn't chew on his words, either. He knew what he thought and felt about the horror of Imperialist wars.

The american people cannot hide behind the excuse that they are not doing it, that they are not committing these crimes. <b>They are actually responsible for these crimes because these crimes are being committed in the name of the American people by a government that states it is a government of the people, for the people and by the people. [...]

When you have a community that is becoming degenerate, and is being overrun by degenerates, and degeneracy is becoming the order of the day, then no honest man can take an inactive position; no honest man can be neutral. and if honest men are neutral, than they are not honest.</b> then they become accessories after the fact and after the act, and to the act.

—Robert Franklin Williams, 1968
Quote:

Nobody takes power. They're given power by the rest of us -- because we're stupid, or afraid - or both. The Russians in 1917, the Germans in 1939... they handed over power to people they thought could settle scores -- get the trains running on time, restore their prestige. They did it because it was what they wanted. And then like children who have eaten too much candy after dinner, they denied it was their fault. It was "them." It's always "them."

-William Edgars, Babylon 5

aceventura3 03-05-2007 10:43 AM

Here is the single biggest problem with the "sky is falling" argument about the bursting housing bubble.

People gotta live somewhere!
The US population is still growing!
There ain't no new land to be found within our boarders!


Therefore, long-term demand will go up. Most of the time housing demand will go up faster than supply and prices will go up.

Until some high level economic guru addresses that argument, panic over short-term market volitility is an excercise in trivia on a macro level. On the flip side local markets are a different animal governed by thier own market issues.

host 03-05-2007 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
....Until some high level economic guru addresses that argument, panic over short-term market volitility is an excercise in trivia on a macro level. On the flip side local markets are a different animal governed by thier own market issues.

Thanks for clearing that up for us, ace....however, the "tell", as I see it...is that 20 percent of the new mortgages and refis done in the last few years were to subprime borrowers. Since december, with no signficant economic downturn, and no pain to the consumer from unemployment as of yet....only a slow down in the res real estate market and a slight reversal to the negative, in housing price appreciation, has triggered the collapse of nearly the entire subprime mortgage lending industry. It is easy to imagine what a spike in unemployment and a sustained decline in home valuations would cause. This is the biggest, most prolonged run up in housing prices and over building in the US, ever, and the reversal and depression in the housing market will most likely be the mirror image of the run up, both in scope and duration.....

Here are some of the top ten subprime lenders, today....the ones that haven't filed for bankruptcy...yet...or been absorbed by large banks for a pittance of their former high flying stock prices. Pension funds and mutual funds held significant positions in these companies, and the equity....is gone for good. That is not volatility....it is permanent wealth destruction:
<img src="http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/n/new">
<img src="http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/t?s=NEW">
<br>
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/n/nfi">
<img src="http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/t?s=NFI"><br>
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/n/lend">
<img src="http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/t?s=LEND"><br>
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/n/fmt">
<img src="http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/t?s=FMT">

<b>Three of four of the stocks of these subprime lenders dropped dramatically today. They lent to subprime mortgage applicants across the US, there will be no replacements for these national landers, borrowing qualifications will be tightened, and there will be significantly fewer first time buyers entering the home market. In the now ending, "bubble era:, anyone who wanted to own a home could simply fill out paperwork with little or no verification of it's accuracy, and borrow the entire purchase price and even the closing costs. Only interest had to be paid on these mortgage loans....at under 5 percent annually in many cases, for the first few years. Millions of folks who are obligated to make monthly payments on these mortgages, won't when they find themselves owing ten or twenty percent more than they borrowed, because of real estate price declines, and/or they won't qualify when their short term, subprime "buyer's mortgage", must be refinanced with a new mortgage at a new, lower home appraisal value, and with terms that include a higher interest rate and added principle payments.

Thus it is not difficult to anticipate that there is little foundation to support ace's "no problem here.....", opinion.</b>

aceventura3 03-05-2007 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host
Thanks for clearing that up for us, ace....however, the "tell", as I see it...is that 20 percent of the new mortgages and refis done in the last few years were to subprime borrowers.

Subprime ain't noth'n but a word. Is there a common definition? What was the percent 10 years ago? What was the percent 25 years ago? What are the trends? What are the trends in the changing definition of subprime?

What is really happening, worse case? People who would ordinarily rent, now buy. If they are forced to sell, they go back to renting. Same housing supply, same housing demand. Only change long-term is the name on the title.

Quote:

Since december, with no signficant economic downturn, and no pain to the consumer from unemployment as of yet....only a slow down in the res real estate market and a slight reversal to the negative, in housing price appreciation, has triggered the collapse of nearly the entire subprime mortgage lending industry. It is easy to imagine what a spike in unemployment and a sustained decline in home valuations would cause. This is the biggest, most prolonged run up in housing prices and over building in the US, ever, and the reversal and depression in the housing market will most likely be the mirror image of the run up, both in scope and duration.....
Again, people gotta live somewhere. Even if unemployment goes up, the demand for housing won't change. There will be a change in second home or vacation home demand, so places like Miami are having and will continue to have supply/demand imbalances.

Quote:

Here are some of the top ten subprime lenders, today....the ones that haven't filed for bankruptcy...yet...or been absorbed by large banks for a pittance of their former high flying stock prices. Pension funds and mutual funds held significant positions in these companies, and the equity....is gone for good. That is not volatility....it is permanent wealth destruction:
<img src="http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/w?s=NEW"><br>
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/n/nfi"><br>
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/n/lend"><br>
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/n/fmt">
Forclosures will go up, but - so what? The family can always go back to renting.

I have not done research on the above companies, however I would bet things like PE, PEG, price to book value, debt to equity, are out of line with traditional financial institutions. If true, the stocks are due for a correction. This is healthy for the overall market, it gets rid of speculators. If conservative investors are heavily in these stocks, shame on them.

The_Jazz 03-05-2007 12:39 PM

While I agree with you about the need for housing stock being an ever-hungry monster, I think that you're missing host's point. He's using mortgage lending as a barameter of the overall economy. I'm the one guilty on focusing solely on housing stock and pricing, which while relavent to the overall picture, resides outside his arguement.

Also, a rise in foreclosed properties is a major harbinger of economic problems, and it's rarely so simple that a family just "goes back to renting" since foreclosure usually means a rash of other monetary problems. The foreclosure is usually just the icing on the cake.

aceventura3 03-05-2007 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz
While I agree with you about the need for housing stock being an ever-hungry monster, I think that you're missing host's point. He's using mortgage lending as a barameter of the overall economy. I'm the one guilty on focusing solely on housing stock and pricing, which while relavent to the overall picture, resides outside his arguement.

O.k., but my point is - if you take each argument one by one, the case for a failing economy falls apart

Here is a good one from Ms. Clinton.

Foreign ownership of our national debt is bad and can hold the US hostage.

Here is the fundemental flaw.

If you or a nation loans money with no security, I.e. buying US Treasury Notes/bonds, you want to get paid back. So the reciever of the loan - holds the giver, hostage, i.e. China wants the US to repay the debt in dollars with as much value as possible. China has an interest in a stable dollar, a stable US economy, and low inflation. Debt is not equity.

Quote:

Also, a rise in foreclosed properties is a major harbinger of economic problems, and it's rarely so simple that a family just "goes back to renting" since foreclosure usually means a rash of other monetary problems. The foreclosure is usually just the icing on the cake.
I agree it is not simple, but in the end the forclosed owner going from owning to renting is the result. Also, don't discount the interests of the lenders. They have alot of smart people making decisions to give loans. They are not in the business of wanting to forclose at fire sale prices or in the business of wanting to own real-estate. Also rather than taking $.50 on the dollar, they may be willing to work with most homeowners through short-term hard times. We have alwasys had economic cycles, there is nothing is new with this slow-down.

jorgelito 03-05-2007 12:57 PM

The economy is going great right now!! 2006 and 2007 are slated to be the best in years in terms of jobs and job growth for new graduates. The Fortune 500 are fighting heavily over new grads right now. Employers are offering more incentives and bonuses than ever. The future looks bright.

Didn't the stock market grow like 2000 something points in the past 4-years before last weeks temporary lows?

The real estate market will always ebb and flow, just like anything else. Up and down, up and down. Now and then, now and then. If houses are too expensive or rates too high, then just rent and wait for it to come down. I have missed many "booms" (dot com, stock markets, real estate) but I never panic cause I know I will get my opportunity soon enough. Deferring gratification, patience, making wise decisions will pay off in the end (in my opinion). I never had a chance to capitalize on the low interest rates of the past few years, nor did I get in on the tech boom stocks. but hey, more opportunities will arise.

By the time I will be ready to buy a house, rates will either fall again, or due to the previous frenzy, there will be lots of awesome foreclosures to be had at fantastic prices.

aceventura3 03-05-2007 01:00 PM

Here is a definition of "subprime" - Any loan issued below average underwriting standards.

Therefore in the basket of all loans 49% of the loans issued are subprime or below average, by definition and this will always be true.

loquitur 03-05-2007 03:19 PM

The subprime market is a fairly risky one. What tends to happen is that the lenders make the loans because they can get fees for it. Then they package the loans and sell them if they can, while keeping a servicing contract. That way they reduce risk while still making money.

People go to subprime lenders precisely because they can't get conventional mortgage loans. After a certain period of time of making high payments, which is what subprime loans usually require (they charge higher rates and higher fees), the borrower falls behind. This housing market has been hot long enough that the cumulative impact of years of high payments is starting to bite.

And no, it's not a good sign.

That does not mean, however, that the economy is about to tank. All it means is that one sector will retrench.

roachboy 03-05-2007 03:42 PM

so wait: i'm confused. much of this debate seems to turn on the question of how to develop a sense of the economy in general, and within that on the question of which indices one chooses to look at, how you weight them, etc.

anyone care to lay out the assumptions behind their views?
i have been reading the thread but am not sure i have much to say about it as i am not particularly committed to any of the ways of reading economic data that are presented here, mostly because i can't get a sense of their relative weight--only that different folk attribute different weights and on that basis refute the weightings of others.

eribrav 03-05-2007 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
Here is a definition of "subprime" - Any loan issued below average underwriting standards.

Therefore in the basket of all loans 49% of the loans issued are subprime or below average, by definition and this will always be true.


This is completely incorrect and does not begin to realistically address what is going on in "subprime" lending.
There are a huge number of no-doc mortgages that have been handed out in the past 2 years. They are essentially ALL sub-prime and at high risk of default. They may have lowered the average creditworthiness of the pool of all borrowers, ,but the fact that a lot of garbage loans were added at the low end of creditworthiness does not mean that the definition of sub-prime gets revised downward.
Put another way, if banks stopped lending to "low risk" borrowers tomorrow, then ALL the loans after that would be subprime, not just the worst 49%.

aceventura3 03-05-2007 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eribrav
This is completely incorrect and does not begin to realistically address what is going on in "subprime" lending.
There are a huge number of no-doc mortgages that have been handed out in the past 2 years. They are essentially ALL sub-prime and at high risk of default. They may have lowered the average creditworthiness of the pool of all borrowers, ,but the fact that a lot of garbage loans were added at the low end of creditworthiness does not mean that the definition of sub-prime gets revised downward.
Put another way, if banks stopped lending to "low risk" borrowers tomorrow, then ALL the loans after that would be subprime, not just the worst 49%.

In 1950 you could not get a home loan unless you had 20% down. During other times in history the percentages were higher and in some cases mortgages where not available. The trending of "subprime" has occured over a long period of time.

It is true some firms have taken higher risks due to the recent real-estate boom. these firms will and have paid a price for the risk. However, the overall market is not supported by subprime loans. The overall market is supported by homeowners who have owned their homes for a long time and have equity. These people are not subject to short-term trends. Even if these people have re-financed or have used equity loans they still have net positive equity and would not be forced to sell on a short-term dip in the market.

I stand by my first post in this thread. The sub-prime definition was my way of illustrating how the term only has meaning in the "eye of the beholder". Given the worse case - what has happend in the subprime market? Some people who were renters became homeowners. Some people who were doing little or no investing bought some investment property. Given that - if they loose - their credit score goes down and the bank owns some real-estate that will be sold at below market prices. When that happens strong investors and strong buyers will benefit. Like the old saying - the rich will get richer.

So again, I ask for the economic guru who can explain what is going to happen to net demand for housing and how long-term, the market goes down. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors and a means to sell newspapers and TV ads.

P.S. Also - if you don't own stock in a subprime lender, didn't get a subprime loan and lost your ability to pay, don't own property in high risk areas what going to happen to you if the subprime market blows up - pretty much nothing. But you say there will be a chain reaction - but thats where you or the economic guru needs to make the link with long-term demand and supply and a short-term market correction. No one has done it yet, other than to say the sky is falling. Last time I checked Chicken Little is not a trained economist.

loquitur 03-05-2007 06:58 PM

In terms of the answer to the question at the top: I am friendly with a number of bankruptcy lawyers and other bankruptcy-related consultants. Their business is slow and they tell me they can't see anything on the horizon that will change that.

aceventura3 03-06-2007 06:25 AM

Remember when:

Y2K was going to ruin the economy?
Highly leveraged hedge funds were going to ruin the economy?
Highly margined stock day traders were going to ruin the economy?
The weakening dollar compared to the Yen was going to ruin the economy?
The Reagan supply side tax cuts were going to ruin the economy?
Three dollar gas? Two dollar gas? One dollar gas? All were going to ruin the economy?

I am sure there are many others. All items getting major headlines at the time with experts saying the end to normal economic long-term growth was near an end.

The real problem facing this nation economically is social security and medicare. Those two issues truely need to be addressed, but ironically those are the issues that mostly get ignored.

Cynthetiq 03-06-2007 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito
The economy is going great right now!! 2006 and 2007 are slated to be the best in years in terms of jobs and job growth for new graduates. The Fortune 500 are fighting heavily over new grads right now. Employers are offering more incentives and bonuses than ever. The future looks bright.

Didn't the stock market grow like 2000 something points in the past 4-years before last weeks temporary lows?

The real estate market will always ebb and flow, just like anything else. Up and down, up and down. Now and then, now and then. If houses are too expensive or rates too high, then just rent and wait for it to come down. I have missed many "booms" (dot com, stock markets, real estate) but I never panic cause I know I will get my opportunity soon enough. Deferring gratification, patience, making wise decisions will pay off in the end (in my opinion). I never had a chance to capitalize on the low interest rates of the past few years, nor did I get in on the tech boom stocks. but hey, more opportunities will arise.

By the time I will be ready to buy a house, rates will either fall again, or due to the previous frenzy, there will be lots of awesome foreclosures to be had at fantastic prices.

That is what your hope is. I have collegues who thought that as well and seem to be chasing something they may never attain in NYC, SF, LA because the cost of housing is outpacing the pay scales. So some of my friends who make good salaries have 2-3 hour commutes in order to have housing that they can afford.

Also, start looking into the rules of foreclosure purchasing and you'll find that a) most of the best foreclosures never hit the streets and get sold to those inside the market first, b) must be purchased sight unseen, so you cannot even look inside and walk the premises and see structural faults/issues, c) must pay cash up front since most foreclosures don't accept financing.

Lastly, even if prices become "good" keep in mind interest rates fluctuate and also affect how much "house" you can buy.

As far as Grads are concerned, most grads are heavily debt laden in order to get that education. While yes, they can be deferred for some time, they do still have to be paid back and can never be defaulted on. Some people I know have educational debt in excess of $50k. This does not include their credit card debt for their "lifestyle" that they lived in college which could also be an additionaly $20k. All that gets factored in when qualifying for a mortgage, again affecting how much "house" you can buy.

aceventura3 03-06-2007 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host
src="http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/t?s=LEND"><br>

http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/n/lend

<b>Three of four of the stocks of these subprime lenders dropped dramatically today. They lent to subprime mortgage applicants across the US, there will be no replacements for these national landers, borrowing qualifications will be tightened, and there will be significantly fewer first time buyers entering the home market. In the now ending, "bubble era:, anyone who wanted to own a home could simply fill out paperwork with little or no verification of it's accuracy, and borrow the entire purchase price and even the closing costs. Only interest had to be paid on these mortgage loans....at under 5 percent annually in many cases, for the first few years. Millions of folks who are obligated to make monthly payments on these mortgages, won't when they find themselves owing ten or twenty percent more than they borrowed, because of real estate price declines, and/or they won't qualify when their short term, subprime "buyer's mortgage", must be refinanced with a new mortgage at a new, lower home appraisal value, and with terms that include a higher interest rate and added principle payments.

Thus it is not difficult to anticipate that there is little foundation to support ace's "no problem here.....", opinion.</b>

I just looked a LEND the shares opened at $8.03 on 3/10/03, the company went public in February '03 at $7.31. Today the price is $17.42.

My only question is - why didn't you tell me about this stock 4 years ago? Did you see it is up$1.32 this morning or over 8%. You should start a contrarian investment fund.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Cynthetiq 03-06-2007 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
That is what your hope is. I have collegues who thought that as well and seem to be chasing something they may never attain in NYC, SF, LA because the cost of housing is outpacing the pay scales. So some of my friends who make good salaries have 2-3 hour commutes in order to have housing that they can afford.

Also, start looking into the rules of foreclosure purchasing and you'll find that a) most of the best foreclosures never hit the streets and get sold to those inside the market first, b) must be purchased sight unseen, so you cannot even look inside and walk the premises and see structural faults/issues, c) must pay cash up front since most foreclosures don't accept financing.

Lastly, even if prices become "good" keep in mind interest rates fluctuate and also affect how much "house" you can buy.

As far as Grads are concerned, most grads are heavily debt laden in order to get that education. While yes, they can be deferred for some time, they do still have to be paid back and can never be defaulted on. Some people I know have educational debt in excess of $50k. This does not include their credit card debt for their "lifestyle" that they lived in college which could also be an additionaly $20k. All that gets factored in when qualifying for a mortgage, again affecting how much "house" you can buy.

Let me also qualify some of this with the fact that many people I know don't want to sacrifice more than they have already in order to get the 20% down. Gathering up $50,000 so that you can buy a $250,000 home gets harder and harder to do especially when distracted by new cars, vacations, new gadgets, full cable TV subscriptions, dining out, memberships, baby.

Many new graduates do not want to sacrifice feeling that they got the new job and they deserve it after 5-6 years in college scrimping to get by.

jorgelito 03-06-2007 10:12 AM

Ah, but this is where choices and decision-making matter. Defer gratification, make good, sound consumer choices, and make sacrifices. All the things you list are a consequence of choice. College debt is very manageable, again, it is about good budgeting and smart lifestyle choices.

Your colleagues, they choose to commute, the choose to live in LA, SF or New York. Accumulating $20K in college for "lifestyle" is highly irresponsible and will not illicit any sympathy from me. They made a choice, they have to live with it. Saving for 20% down is relatively simple if people would just exercise some planning and discipline.

Throughout college I budgeted my finances. I spent $25 a week on groceries by buying produce in season and on sale, clipped coupons and made 98% of my mreals at home and bagged the lunch. I quit smoking, saving myself $1000 a year. I didn't own a cell phone, cable TV or a car or car insurance, saving thousands a year on these expenses. In fact, I was savvy enough to budget my needs and have enough money left over to travel extensively throughout college.


I live in LA. I just graduated and got a job. Now I'm going to buy a car. A nice, simple starter car (Honda Civic). I'm also moving and getting an apartment. Not a house. Not yet. Why? Cause I can't afford it just yet. I know what sacrifices I will had to make to get here and what sacrifices I will have to make to get where I want to be. I also have student loans to pay off and maybe $300 Iracked up in credit card debt I accumulated last month but I will pay off this month. Student loans should not be a problem as long as you have a monthly income.

I stand by my contention that the economy is hot hot hot and the outlook is good.

Bottom line: Spend less than you earn. Live within your means.

host 03-06-2007 11:02 AM

loquitur, when other large speculative bubbles "burst", everything was fine....new high prices attained, surpassed.....up and up and up.....fine, until it wasn't. Depending on the size of the bubble, and on the length of time that it lasted, and on the amount of money and the number of speculators it attracted,
...then the longer it declined, and the lower prices dropped from the "all time" highs.

Here are two examples, and it is amazing how both of these contemporary bubbles unwound so relentlessly, to such dramatic lows....with hopeful buying into the decline, all the way down......and the disappointment of those who bought into the long series of false recoveries, and then watch the new, lower lows, until the final lows.....to date....were put in. Both played out, in price decline and in duration, witn uncanny similarity to the 1929 Dow index crash.
That index declined from 393 to 41, in a little less than 3 years, and the recovery from the 393 high to a new high, took 24 years.

Compare the 1929 unwinding to these price movements:

Nasdaq 2000 stock index
<a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EIXIC&a=02&b=01&c=2000&d=02&e=15&f=2000&g=d">10-Mar-00 open 5,060.34 high 5,132.52</a>
<a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EIXIC&a=03&b=01&c=2000&d=03&e=15&f=2000&g=d">14-Apr-00 open 3,597.44 high 3,615.64</a>
<a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EIXIC&a=11&b=01&c=2000&d=11&e=15&f=2000&g=d">15-Dec-00 open 2,688.66 high 2,697.93</a>
<a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EIXIC&a=02&b=01&c=2001&d=02&e=15&f=2001&g=d">15-Mar-01 open 2,023.79 high 2,030.73</a>
<a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EIXIC&a=03&b=01&c=2001&d=03&e=15&f=2001&g=d">4-Apr-01 open 1,668.37 high 1,698.21</a>
<a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EIXIC&a=09&b=01&c=2002&d=09&e=15&f=2002&g=d">10-Oct-02 1,116.76 1,165.83 1,108.49</a>

<b>....and today, almost 7 years to the day that the Nasdaq was at 5132, it is still below half that level.....</b>

Nikkei 225 stock index

<a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN225&a=11&b=15&c=1989&d=11&e=31&f=1989&g=d">29-Dec-89 open 38,913.00 high 38,957.00</a>
<a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN225&a=01&b=1&c=1990&d=01&e=28&f=1990&g=d">27-Feb-90 open 33,346.00 high 34,001.00 low 32,793.00</a>
<a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN225&a=02&b=1&c=1990&d=02&e=31&f=1990&g=d">30-Mar-90 open 31,002.00 high 31,002.00 low 29,828.00</a>
<a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN225&a=07&b=1&c=1990&d=07&e=31&f=1990&g=d">24-Aug-90 open 23,731.00 high 24,485.00 low 23,547.00</a>
<a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN225&a=09&b=1&c=1990&d=09&e=15&f=1990&g=d">2-Oct-90 open 20,222.00 high 22,899.00</a>
<a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN225&a=02&b=1&c=1992&d=03&e=30&f=1992&g=d">10-Apr-92 open 16,622.00 high 17,851.00 low 16,622.00</a>
<a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN225&a=03&b=15&c=2003&d=03&e=30&f=2003&g=d">28-Apr-03 open 7,679.11 high 7,685.36 low 7,603.76</a>
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/my/_/_n225">

<b>It's 17 years after the Nikkei 225 put in it's 38,957 high, and 4 years since it reached it's latest "new low" of 7603. I've shown you the effects of the three most prominent bubbles having to do with financial speculation of the general public, of the 20th century. All of my posts are filled with linked facts that support my opinions. Those who disagree with me have provided no citations to support their opinions, and indeed, don't even seem willing to consider that what I am saying is a possibility, let alone that it is actually taking place now. Given what we know about the duration, scope and the size of the residential real estate "run up", the amount of "easy", low qualification and low interest financing that it has needed to "make it happen", and to sustain it, and the fact tha almost anyone who wanted to obtain a mortgage and buy a housing unit, now has one, now is in "the market", who will the "holders" sell to, now?

If you agree that the increase in housing prices that spurred the building of huge numbers of new units, and that the overall economy benefited from the jobs that the housing construction, real estate marketing, and mortgage brokering, from the manufacture and sale of building materials and home furnishing, and from the extraction and spending of the increasing home equity of those who owned home during the price run up....wealth extraction by homeowners that reached $800 billion,</b>
<img src="http://www.safehaven.com/images/mauldin/6603_g.gif">

....in a decline like the one that we are seeing now.....in price, in the number of houses sold, and in the amount of wealth extraction that homeowners are able to get from their home values into their wallets...to be spent on second homes, home improvements, vacations, restaurant meals, consumer goods, new cars....etc., and in the decline (disappearance) of the profits of builders, realtors, mortgage brokers, and "flippers",

<b>what can you say to support your opinion that the disappearance of all of this former stimulus won't drag down the economy in the same way that, when it was there to stimulate the economy, promoted it's growth? What will take the place of consumers taking equity from their homes in an amount that exceeded, at it's high, over $200 billion, every three months, in an environment of increasing inflation and chronically flat income levels?></b>

....and my question does not even consider the negative impact of mortgage defaults and foreclosures, and the BK of home builders and the financial institutions that lent them, and the homebuyers, the money to build and buy the housing units.....

I followed this guy's writings, for the last four years, (below) on the farce of the fed lowering interest rates to one percent, in an attempt to remove the negative effect of the wealth destruction that would have been a consequence of the 2000 to 2003 crash of the Nasdaq and Dow stock indexes. He went so far as to detail a "character", a mortgage broker who worked for NEW CENTURY FINANCIAL, and he detailed the ridiculousness of New Century lending money to anyone....regardless of income, or even resident status in the US....to buy houses at inflated prices, which further inflated the housing prices, which allowed the houses to turn into an ATM, into "free money" for their owners.....money to buy whatever they wanted with.....and his first post is in Feb., 2003, and his last was yesterday, when the stock price of "NEW", finally imploded, and the NY Times wrote an article about an actual former NEW CENTURY broker, who seems describe the reality of what "Mark" had commented on for the past four years:

Quote:

http://www.capitalstool.com/forums/i...showtopic=1158

post Feb 11 2003, 08:46 PM
Post #1

From: Manhattan Beach, CA
Member No.: 184

Mark’s Market Commentary – February 11, 2003

....Never before have I experienced such an amazing period of denial, resistance, and ignorance of what is going on. A stark contrast to what we in California experienced in 1990 – 1993 where gloom was pervasive, everyone was cautious, nobody was spending, and the most popular topic of discussion was the lack of jobs.

Contrast that to today’s MTV Spring Break attitude. New cars rolling off the lots everywhere. Real estate mania in full swing. The popular topic of discussion is how to further leverage your financial position in order to upstage your own appearance of wealth and success. No fear. No concern. But can you blame them?

Why not be optimistic when all Fed members are on the rubber chicken circuit forecasting a “recovery”, crowing about the “resilient consumer”, and how there is no debt bubble.

Why not be optimistic when the Wall Street Matrix with their cheery pundits are all pounding the table to “buy stocks” to “participate” in the “2nd half v-shaped recovery”.

Picture the 28-year old female Marketing Director for Expedia.com. Biding her time at some nonsense buzzy jazzy job. Leveraging her stunning appearance to land a man who is involved in one of the fantastic growth industries in Orange County like “mortgage finance”. She’s up to her eyeballs in debt. The Nordstrom’s credit card, Victoria’s Secret credit card, and even an “emergency” credit card from Target or Sears. On top of the usual maxed out First USA and Capital One VISA. And of course, the $690/mo. payments to BMW finance for the BMW 330i convertible. But now there are some murmurings about potential layoffs.

But why worry? Her boyfriend is the top closer for New Century Mortgage. A 34-year old Italian swinger fluent in Spanish, making 6-figures pushing subprime mortgages to illegal immigrants. Driving his Lexus GS430. He’s already eyeballing the purchase of a $1.8 million house in Newport Beach. Of course, he has no money for a down payment, but that doesn’t matter. He’s in the mortgage business, headed for great success.

Is she worried about gassing up the 330 with premium gas at $2.00/gallon? No. She’s too busy honking the horn at the poor Guatamalan Gardener in front of her with his 1972 Datsun pickup. She’s in a hurry to get home to see who got nominated for the Oscars.

Is she worried about the Al Queda live interview tonight? No. She’s too busy waiting for the new Madonna video.

Is she going to Home Depot to get some duct tape, plastic sheeting, and bottled water in case of a bio attack? No. She’s wondering when the next thong sale is occurring at Victoria’s Secret.

What about him? Has he any clue about the mortgage bubble? No. He’s too busy training his boiler room operators on how to convince the Guatamalan Gardener that he can afford the KB Home “starter” property at $325,000 even though he’s not even a legal resident. And the commission checks keep rolling in, and the refinancing boom has shown no signs of slowing down yet.

These two have been living for years and years on credit. With no adverse consequences. Everyone else is doing the same. The naysayers have been warning of excessive consumer debt, but Al Green has assured everybody that its not a problem. Anyway, the 2nd half recovery hasn’t shown up yet, but after 3 years, it has to appear this year. That’s a guarantee of an acceleration of both incomes. And thanks to the productivity miracle everyone is crowing about, things are going to get really good next year. So she just continues making the payments, even though she is getting a little behind, and wait for the much heralded “recovery”.

No worries about the job market, either. After all, as a last resort, she could become an exotic dancer at any of the hundred clubs in Las Vegas, and hopefully some high roller will come along and bail her out of her debts if Mr. Closer doesn’t work out. Interesting how the shrink-wrapped skeletons with the silicon bolt-ons never have to worry about “job security”.

In the meantime, the stock market mania continues to explode with new kinds of funds sprouting up daily.

The mutual fund manager who has the honor of getting in Barron’s this week is Kevin Baum at the Oppenheimer Real Asset fund. Marketing itself as a natural resource fund. It is anything but. It is basically a money lender using huge leverage playing various financial exotica in the structured finance arena.

Run by 32-year old Kevin Baum, who was 11 years old when the bull market started and 18 years old during the 1987 crash. After working at a summer job with Edward D. Jones, Baum went to Texas Tech and started this fund at age 26.

About 33% of the fund’s assets are loans to firms such as Cargill Investors Services and ABN Amro, who in return, sign structured notes which essentially “promises” that a return equal to LIBOR + 1.4% plus a principal return equal to 3x the Goldman Sachs Commodities Index. Basically, it is a money lender to companies like Cargill who expects to produce 300% returns by Riverboating in the commodities market. The other 66% of the fund is invested in so-called “short-term investments” like Harley Davidson Trust Receivable Notes, Fannie Mae and Ford Motor Credit bonds. To minimize the interest rate risk, the fund hedges the portfolio with Treasury futures. Occasionally Baum has gone long on gold futures while shorting silver futures.....
Quote:

http://www.capitalstool.com/forums/i...=&#entry121481

Jun 28 2003, 02:31 AM
Post #2

From: Manhattan Beach, CA
Member No.: 184

Noland <a href="http://64.29.208.119/archive_comm_article.asp?category=Credit+Bubble+Bulletin&content_idx=24351">painted a pretty dire picture</a> of California.

So far, there is no visible evidence of any trouble out here.

The 24-year old large breasted blonde bombshell employed at $175,000/year as a Marketing Assistant for Expedia is still living in The Dream World. Driving her $42,000 BMW 330ci which just had its $1,300/year license plate fee tripled to $3,900/year.

So far, she is unfazed.

Especially when her bills are being paid by her boyfriend.

As for her $325,000/year "top closer" 32-year old boyfriend working at New Century with the $82,000 BMW 745il, things don't look bad from his vantage point either. His $1.7 million starter home in Newport Beach has already appreciated $300,000 in 6 months, so what little extra taxes and fees Gray Davis hands out is really of no consequence. Another "refi" to extract another $100,000 in equity will paper over a large portion of these "financial nuisiances"

Over on the other side of the railroad tracks, the Jerry Springer contestants can still be found at the Long Beach car wash with their Ford Expeditions with the brush guards, 21" flying saucer wheels which keep rotating after the car stops, and two Kenwood DVD Plasma Screen Players. No, he doesn't have a house yet. He's still renting a 1 bedroom apartment in a stucco box for $1,200/mo., trying to work down his $55,000 in credit card debt so he can qualify for a Fannie Mae interest-only mortgage for first time homebuyers. Trouble is, with so much consumer debt, he's finding it hard to stay ahead with his $14/hr. job as a car stereo installer at Best Buy.

The San Francisco Bus Drivers are still making $90,000/year. I don't think they have a clue that their wages will be dropping to $5.50/hr. later this summer.

Driving up the I-5 freeway yesterday, it was a virtual standstill. A Yobob Paradise with every brand, make, and model camper, diesel pusher, trailer, and motor home towing a trailer full of jet skiis and motorcycles. It was difficult to find a vehicle on the road older than 5 years.

If conditions change radically, I will keep you guys informed in real time as it happens.

But for now, the state's budget problems are a mirage for most people.

And while on the subject, BobBrinker has always recommended California General Obligation bonds as "dollar good" and impervious to credit default.

We shall see.
Quote:

http://www.capitalstool.com/forums/i...showtopic=8272
The End of The Heyday, M2M 03/05/07

post Yesterday, 06:52 PM
Post #1

From: Manhattan Beach, CA
Member No.: 184

Some of you old stoolies might remember my riffs about the normal and typical yuppie couples in Orange County.

Remember the guy featured, the "top closer" from New Century? The immigrant with limited education who became an instant millionaire?

Drove a Ferrari and purchased a giant oceanfront home?

Well, here he is, featured on today's <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/business/05lender.html">New York Times</a>

By JULIE CRESWELL and VIKAS BAJAJ

Even in affluent Orange County, Calif., the growing wealth of executives and brokers in the booming mortgage industry was hard to miss.

For Kal Elsayed, a former executive at New Century Financial, a large lender based in Irvine, driving a red convertible Ferrari to work at a company that provided home loans to people with low incomes and weak credit might have appeared ostentatious, he now acknowledges. But, he says, that was nothing compared with the private jets that executives at other companies had.

“You just lost touch with reality after a while because that’s just how people were living,” said Mr. Elsayed, 42, who spent nine years at New Century before leaving to start his own mortgage firm in 2005. “We made so much money you couldn’t believe it. And you didn’t have to do anything. You just had to show up.”

Orange County was the epicenter of the boom in subprime. Five of the 10 biggest providers of subprime mortgages last year had their headquarters in the region.
[/quote]
The March 5, 2005 NY Times article described by "wndysrf" in the preceding quote box:
(Consider that the articles' description of New Century's stock price was written before the stock, trading under the synbol "NEW", closed at $4.56 per share in todays' trading.)
Quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/bu.../05lender.html

March 5, 2007
Mortgage Crisis Spirals, and Casualties Mount
By JULIE CRESWELL and VIKAS BAJAJ

Even in affluent Orange County, Calif., the growing wealth of executives and brokers in the booming mortgage industry was hard to miss.

For Kal Elsayed, a former executive at New Century Financial, a large lender based in Irvine, driving a red convertible Ferrari to work at a company that provided home loans to people with low incomes and weak credit might have appeared ostentatious, he now acknowledges. But, he says, that was nothing compared with the private jets that executives at other companies had.

“You just lost touch with reality after a while because that’s just how people were living,” said Mr. Elsayed, 42, who spent nine years at New Century before leaving to start his own mortgage firm in 2005. “We made so much money you couldn’t believe it. And you didn’t have to do anything. You just had to show up.”

Just as the technology boom of the late 1990s turned twenty-something programmers into dot-com billionaires, and leveraged buyouts a decade earlier turned Wall Street bankers into Masters of the Universe, the explosive growth in subprime lending turned mortgage bankers and brokers into multimillionaires seemingly overnight.

Now an escalating crisis in the market, which seemed to reach a new crescendo late last week, is threatening a wide band of people. Foremost are the poor and minority homeowners who used easy credit to buy houses that are turning out to be too expensive for them now that mortgage rates are going up, but the pain is also being felt widely throughout the business world.

Large companies that bought subprime lenders during the boom, like H&R Block and HSBC, are now scrambling to sell them or scale back their exposure. Many investors are also likely to suffer: Wall Street firms made billions in fees, commissions and trading revenue from packaging and selling subprime mortgages to them as bonds.

New Century has emerged as a poster child for the lenders that rode that boom to the top and are now in free fall. The company disclosed on Friday that federal prosecutors and securities regulators were investigating stock sales and accounting errors. The latter could jeopardize billions of dollars in financing for the company, which issued $39.4 billion in subprime loans in the first nine months of last year.

Weakening home prices and rising default rates have rocked the subprime business. But for those who cashed out before the market turned, the ride up was particularly sweet. The three founders of New Century, for example, together made more than $40.5 million in profits from selling shares in the company from 2004 to 2006, according to an analysis by Thomson Financial. They collected millions of dollars more in dividends, salaries, bonuses and perks.

The company said in a statement yesterday that the founders were “still significant shareholders,” noting that they collectively owned about 7 percent of the company at the end of last year.

New Century’s stock price, which seemed to mirror the trajectory of the subprime business, peaked at nearly $66 a share in December of 2004 and traded in the $40s most of last year; on Friday, it was trading at $11 a share after the market closed. In a series of sales from August to November, two of the company’s founders sold shares for an average price of about $40 a share, for a total profit of $21.4 million.

It is not known whether the stock sales by the founders are among the sales being examined by federal investigators. Some of them had been part of scheduled stock sales that are often used by executives to diversify their portfolios. But some of the sales occurred on the same day that the executives entered the plans. A New Century spokeswoman, Laura Oberhelman, said that executives declined further comment.

The founders’ stock also rose in the social circles of southern California, the epicenter of the boom in subprime. Five of the 10 biggest providers of subprime mortgages last year had their headquarters in the region.

Robert K. Cole, 60, a co-founder who retired as chairman and chief executive last year, lives in a 6,100-square-foot oceanfront home in Laguna Beach that is valued at tens of millions of dollars and was once owned by the chief executive of Pimco Advisors, the giant bond trading and management firm. Edward F. Gotschall, 52, another co-founder who is vice chairman of the board, donated $3 million for an expanded trauma center at Mission Hospital that will be named for him and his wife Susan.

The executives from New Century are by no means alone in cashing in on the bonanza, and they do not appear to have scored the biggest profits. That title may be claimed by Angelo R. Mozilo, the chief executive of Countrywide Financial, the nation’s largest stand-alone mortgage company and one of the largest subprime lenders last year. He reaped more than $270 million in profits from sales of stock and the exercise of stock options from 2004 to the start of this year, according to the Thompson analysis.

Of course, most of the 500,000 people who work in the mortgage industry did not cash in so grandly. The wealth was concentrated among executives, loan officers and brokers, because the greatest rewards were meted out in the form of commissions, bonuses and stock awards.

“In the hot times, it was not unusual to see a broker make a million bucks,” said Guy Cecala, publisher of Inside Mortgage Finance, a trade publication. “You can carry that up further to people who ran the companies. The whole business revolves around personal compensation.”

The hot times are clearly over.
To Read the Rest of This Article   click to show 

<b>The disconnect here is obvious..... some of the same folks who take the other side of the political argument than I do, don't see the economic conditions of the last six years as an artificially contrived, unsustainable farce, as described so well in the "Mark to Market" posts above. Since they don't see "the folly".....the ridiculousness of the idea that vast numbers of folks could experience the transformation of their homes into financial "holdings" that throw out equity at them, as they refinance their mortgages annually, at ever lower terms......their homes that are ever rising in value....and not have the result be the financial failures of the lenders of those mortgage loans, and a reversal in the value of the homes, and in the ability of their owners to spend, and on the employment numbers of all of those in the realty, realty, finance, and housing industries, and then, in the economy, itself.......that disconnect....evident here.....is confirmation to me that this will end up having an even more negative impact on our economy, and on many of us in the US, than I have been considering.</b>

aceventura3 03-06-2007 06:44 PM

My "simplistic" or "black and white" response is that there is intrinsic value and there is speculative value. During periods of market euphoria speculative value increases and gets out of control, however intrisic value stays grounded in the fundementals of the market. Personally, I always try to stay focused on intrinsic value. I think smart money or wise investor gurus like Warren Buffet, or the late Benjamin Graham also stay focused on intrinsic value. Speculative value comes and goes. when a market crashes it normally is not a crash but more of a sudden decrease in speculative value still supported by intrisic values. If intrisic values suddenly declined, in my book that would be a crash, if this happens it doesn't last long because smart money comes in for the easy gains when the intrisic value goes back to equilibrium.

My point is that real-estate has intrisic value. That value will increase over time and has historically increased over time. Speculative value is currently being taken out of the market. This is good. Smart money wants this to happen. Smart money sees this as healthy, you don't. All the citations, quotes, stats in the world won't prove the above - you either get it or you don't.

Those who don't get it will generally always be on the wrong side of the trend.

Six months from now when we look at the stats we will see that today we have already hit and past the real-estate bottom. You can say you heard it here first.

That is my market call. What's yours?

How about a wager. If you are correct and I am wrong I will donate $100 to your favorite charity, and you do it if the opposit is true.

host 03-07-2007 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
.....My point is that real-estate has intrisic value. That value will increase over time and has historically increased over time. Speculative value is currently being taken out of the market. This is good. Smart money wants this to happen. Smart money sees this as healthy, you don't. All the citations, quotes, stats in the world won't prove the above - you either get it or you don't.

Those who don't get it will generally always be on the wrong side of the trend.

Six months from now when we look at the stats we will see that today we have already hit and past the real-estate bottom. You can say you heard it here first.

That is my market call. What's yours?

How about a wager. If you are correct and I am wrong I will donate $100 to your favorite charity, and you do it if the opposit is true.

ace, thank you for the reasonable tenor I detected in your last post, and your offer of a wager between us that would ulitmately benefit a charity of our choosing, but....as I posted earlier, I'm already putting my money where my mouth is, via stock market investments in the direction of the deteriorating economic trend that I am forecasting.
If you turn out to be correct about the direction of the economy in the next six months, I promise to post the dollar figure of the losses from making the "wrong bets" in the stock market.

I also do not want to make a wager with you until you can post something similar to this Feb. 20 Forbes article, with facts to counter reasons for a downturn.
Quote:

http://www.forbes.com/business/2007/...219oxford.html
Risks Still Cloud U.S. Economic Outlook
Oxford Analytica 02.20.07, 6:00 AM ET

The U.S. Federal Reserve on Jan. 14 forecast sustained healthy economic growth in 2007. Most analysts believe the Fed has put the economy on a glide path to a "soft landing" of only slightly below-trend growth, and financial markets have reacted positively. However, disquieting economic data suggests growth may be more fragile than expected.

......The details of the 2006 fourth-quarter preliminary GDP report reveal soft spots:

--Weak investment spending. While real consumer spending was the positive linchpin of the report, investment spending was surprisingly weak.

--Plummeting residential investment. Residential investment spending declined in the fourth quarter.

--Government spending stimulus. A key boost to growth in the fourth quarter came from a rise in federal defense spending.

--Downward growth revision. Most data releases since the GDP report have come in weaker than expected, which suggests that the government's revised GDP data for the fourth quarter will reduce the quarterly growth estimate to 2.5% to 3.0%.

A number of economic statistics suggest that the U.S. economy is somewhat fragile:

1. Employment. The economy created only 111,000 jobs in January.

While the pace of job growth hit 2.1% year-on-year in March 2006, it eased steadily over the course of 2006, and by last month had slowed to 1.6% year-on-year. Manufacturing jobs declined since the third quarter of last year. All measures of hours worked were weak in January.

One key indicator of future employment growth is the temporary worker category. Recently this has turned flat.

2. Purchasing Managers Index (PMI). This survey is a "diffusion index" that measures whether business conditions in the manufacturing sector are increasing or decreasing. The PMI dropped to 49.3 last month. Readings below 50 indicate that the U.S. manufacturing sector is declining.

3. Yield curve. The "yield curve" is commonly defined as the yield on 10-year government bonds less the interest rate on 90-day commercial paper. An inverted yield curve is taken as a signal that credit conditions are tight and monetary authorities are trying actively to discourage borrowing. The typical reaction to tightened credit conditions is that capital spending and housing weaken--developments now underway:

--Since 1970, there have been six episodes when this measure of the yield curve has been inverted for at least nine months, and all were followed by recessions.

--The lag between the beginning of the yield curve inversion and the onset of recession ranged from three to six quarters.

--The present yield curve inversion began in July 2006, meaning that if the yield curve remains inverted through the end of March 2007 a "recession watch" would start.

4. Mortgage equity withdrawal. MEW is turning decidedly more negative. MEW boosted consumer spending in recent years and helps explain the negative U.S. saving rate. However, with home prices flattening off and declining in many areas, refinancing has slowed sharply, and MEW has softened.

Consumer spending remained robust during the fourth quarter, but this may not continue if MEW remains weak. Meanwhile, rising interest rates and the resetting of many adjustable-rate mortgages have driven the ratio of the median mortgage interest payment to median family income to its highest level in nearly 25 years.

5. Other weak indicators. A series of other measures suggest caution:

--Industrial production fell an unexpected 0.5% month-on-month in January.

--Trucking industry volumes turned weaker in the final months of 2006--this weakness has persisted.

--Large homebuilders continue to report tumbling orders for new homes.

--Automobile industry sales at General Motors (nyse: GM - news - people ) and Ford Motor (nyse: F - news - people ) dropped by double-digit year-on-year rates in January.

The market's sanguine estimate of U.S. economic prospects this year may yet be proved accurate. However, given recent mixed economic signals, and the persistence of significant downside risk, U.S. economic statistics bear a close watch in the coming months for further signs of trouble ahead........
ace, what I want to read from you are answers to where the economic stimulus will come from to mitigate the loss of a sizeable portion of the consumer financial "bonus" that the recent $800 billion per year of "MEW" - "Mortgage Equity Extraction" was, to expand GDP, and now, to even sustain it at a $13 trillion annual level.
Below, in the Bloomberg.com article:
Quote:

The problems in the subprime market may be just the tip of the iceberg, given the depth and duration of the housing bubble -- and the money tied up in it.

``We've created an unproductive asset,'' says Joe Carson, director of global economic research at AllianceBernstein. ``A house doesn't produce income.''

Mortgage debt rose by $4.7 trillion from the end of 2000 through the third quarter of 2006, according to the Fed's Flow of Funds report. ``We created as much debt in housing in the last six years as we did in the prior 50,'' Carson says.
....ace, supply us with your "take" on what will drive further GDP growth, or even sustain it, if what has driven it to where it is today....a $4.7 trillion mortgage lending binge that drove the homebuilding, realty, and mortgage underwriting industries, and the quadrupling of "MEW" in just five years, the effect of federal tax cuts that
are in the past now....priced in....and federal spending deficits that exceeded $500 billion per year, but are now, in your own belief, declining significantly? How will the decline in housing sales and in the prices offered for houses, avoid "feeding on itself", just as it did in the run up phase? How will increasing homeowner mortgage defaults not result in more foreclosures, auctioned into a housing market already suffering from lower demand and lower prices?
How will a consumer who grew accustomed, every 18 months, to refinancing his credit card balances and car loan into a new mortgage refi, while taking cash out...to boot...begin and sustain a new cycle of spending and trading up to an even bigger and better home, when he can no longer do the "cash out", debt consolidating "refi"...stuck paying his recent credit card balances and newest car loan, with no hope of again......making it disappear into his mortgage balance?
Will the new homeowners who are forced to refi their "no money down"...."buyer's ARM" into a mortgage that raises their monthly payment by 50 percent, while they observe a drop in value of a home that they already had no equity in...react to their dramatically higher mortgage payment? Will they pay...or will they walk away?

ace....the subprime lenders who I earlier covered, about 30 of them now....in distress, acquisition or BK, just since December, flamed out, even with no increase in the US unemployment rate. Explain how job losses in the realty boom related segments, and in building materials, trucking, construction equipment, etc., will be minimal, if the decline in realty related activity continues. What will replace the lost jobs and the related activity, to prevent the decline of GDP growth?
Quote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...030601980.html

Greenspan Lays Odds On U.S. Recession
'One-Third Probability' in '07, Former Fed Chief Says

By Craig Torres
Bloomberg News
Wednesday, March 7, 2007; Page D01

Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said yesterday that there is a "one-third probability" of a U.S. recession this year and that the current economic expansion won't have the staying power of its decade-long predecessor.

"We are in the sixth year of a recovery; imbalances can emerge as a result," Greenspan said in an interview at his District office. "The historically normal business cycle is much shorter" than a decade and is likely to be this time, he said.


Alan Greenspan is back in the economic forecasting business.

Greenspan's outlook contrasts with the prediction of his successor, Ben S. Bernanke, who told Congress last week that the economy might strengthen this year. Bernanke's upbeat assessment helped steady stock markets on Feb. 28 after a plunge the day before that some traders attributed partly to Greenspan's musing that a recession could not be ruled out.

"It is possible that we can have a recession at the end of this year," said Greenspan, who ran the central bank for 18 years until January 2006. Bernanke declined comment.

Little more than a year after leaving the central bank, Greenspan, 81, is returning to economic forecasting, which he did before entering the government in 1974. He isn't trying to predict a number for gross domestic product or inflation; instead, he's trying to capture trends and when they might change.

Private-sector economists and policymakers are predicting that the expansion, which began in 2001, will continue. The Fed expects the economy to grow 2.5 to 3 percent this year, and 2.75 to 3 percent next year, according to forecasts presented to Congress last month.

Greenspan said he had been careful to avoid making life difficult for his successor....
to Read the Rest of this Article   click to show 

Quote:

http://www.forbes.com/markets/2007/0...markets48.html
Market Takes Greenspan's Odds
Matthew Kirdahy, 03.06.07, 5:21 PM ET

The market ignored Alan Greenspan's dispatches on the state of the U.S. economy Tuesday, behaving more in line with U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson's remarks on the proverbial glass being half full.

The Dow Jones industrial average soared 157.18 points, or 1.3%, to close at 12,207.59 following strong gains late in the session. All but one of the stocks in the index, Johnson & Johnson, were in the green as the Dow logged its best one-day gain since July. However, the industrial average is on pace for its worst quarter since the first quarter of 2005.

The broader Standard & Poor's 500 gained 1.6% and the Nasdaq Composite, home to many leading technology companies, finished up 1.9%.

Things were looking almost too good, in which case, the New York Stock Exchange had to institute a trading collar -- which does not halt all trading, but is meant to curb certain arbitrage and computer-driven trading -- at about 3:13 p.m......

....Regardless, Greenspan couldn't spook the market the way he did last month, when the former Federal Reserve chairman first raised the prospect of recession <b>and said investors aren't braced for a hit.....</b>
a huge number of articles in the following piece, ace. They detail the last realty run up, and decline....from 1981 to 1995.
Explain ace, given that the recent run up was much longer and peaked much higher, how it will "be different, this time"?
Quote:

http://njrereport.com/80sbubble.htm

Home Prices Do Fall
<b>A Look At The Collapse Of The 1980's Real Estate Bubble
Through The Eyes Of The New York Times</b>
by
James Bednar
New Jersey Real Estate Report
http://njrereport.com

Introduction

"Home prices never go down" is a quote often heard spoken by real estate agents. It isn't true. Real estate bubbles do exist and they do burst. The after effects of a real estate bubble burst are felt for years afterwards.

Thanks to the online search capability of the New York Times, I was able to compile a list of articles that appeared in the New York Times during the real estate bubble from 1981 to 1988 and then from the resultant crash, from 1989 onwards.

All the readers that have seen the preliminary compilation gave the same remark, "It's like deja-vu."

Indeed, it is. We've quickly forgotten the 80's bubble that swept over the Northeast, in particular the New York Metropolitan area. We've convinced ourselves that "this time is different." Unfortunately, all we've proven is that we lack the ability to learn from history and our mistakes.

.....<b>1981 - Slow After 70's Slump</b>

Your Money; Buying Houses As Investments
May 23, 1981, Saturday
By ALAN S. OSER (NYT); Financial Desk
Late City Final Edition, Section 2, Page 30, Column 1, 947 words
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...AC0894D9484D81

''DO you think we did the right thing?'' the nervous woman asked the supposed authority. She and her husband, already owners of a summer home in Southampton, L.I., had just contracted to buy a condominium there, purely as an investment. They had seen home prices in the Hamptons rise...

<b>1987 - Cracks Appear At The Top</b>

<b>Home Buying Drops Sharply In the Suburbs</b>
By THOMAS J. LUECK, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: July 27, 1987
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...54C0A961948260

The surging market for homes in the suburbs of New York City has abruptly shifted gears. In many suburban communities, where real-estate prices have more than doubled since 1980, industry experts say there is a huge inventory of unsold homes, and a sudden paucity of buyers.

In May, June and early July - normally the peak of the home-buying season - anxious sellers in much of the suburban region have been lowering their prices, sometimes repeatedly.

''The number of properties on the market is unbelievable,'' said Richard Palmer, regional vice president of the National Board of Realtors for New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. ''For the moment, the unsatiable demand for homes seems to be satisfied.''


<b>1995 - Uncertainty As The Bottom Is Hit</b>

For Suburban Homes, Modest Recovery
By NICK RAVO
Published: February 19, 1995
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...51C0A963958260

RECOVERY that was reserved in most areas and robust in some reigned over the residential real estate market in the New York suburbs last year. Home sales surged in much of Connecticut and Long Island and in Westchester and Rockland Counties and parts of Northern New Jersey -- but fell short of their mid-1980's peaks. Sale prices, in most places, were flat or rose only slightly, barely bouncing off the bottoms hit during the recession in the early 90's.
Quote:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aQKw_vL7cuLQ

As Housing Goes Bust, Lenders Become Predators?: Caroline Baum

By Caroline Baum

March 6 (Bloomberg) -- Congress is gearing up for hearings on predatory lending, the latest chapter in its long history of barn-door-closings on already-departed horses.

Just some background in case anyone hasn't picked up a U.S. newspaper in the last month. The subprime lending market is in trouble as borrowers who are, by definition, poor credit risks live up to their reputation.

Delinquency rates on these risky home loans are rising, subprime lenders are going belly up at an alarming rate, criminal probes of some lenders are under way (the trial lawyers must be salivating at the prospect of a whole new class of class-action suits), and front-page stories are proliferating almost as fast as you can get a no-money-down, no-questions- asked mortgage.

Make that as fast as you could have gotten a loan, before the regulatory agencies got wind of the trouble.

Last week, federal financial regulators, including the Federal Reserve, Office of the Controller of the Currency and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., proposed a series of guidelines ``to address certain risks and emerging issues related to subprime mortgage lending practices, specifically, particular adjustable-rate mortgage (ARM) lending products.''

The feds are concerned that (my interpolation) borrowers may not appreciate that a 2 percent teaser rate might not be good for 30 years. (See, ``If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.'') They're afraid lenders may be unaware of the risks these loans pose to financial institutions. (The risk of making risky loans? Really?)

Full Disclosure......
To Read the Middle of this Article   click to show 
If the definition is making a loan to someone who can't pay it back, then I guess it was predatory.

The interest rates weren't high, the standards weren't tight, and access to credit was wide open. Based on characteristics most folks associate with predatory lending, the accusation seems unfounded.

Easy Credit

To the contrary, any schnook who could sign on the dotted line qualified for a home loan.

The word ``predatory,'' with all its negative connotations, is popping up elsewhere; specifically, to describe loss- mitigation practices.

There is nothing predatory about ``improving the collectability of the loan,'' says Scott Valentin, managing director, specialty finance research, at Friedman, Billings, Ramsey & Co. in Arlington, Virginia.

Loss-mitigation tactics are fairly standard: Extend the terms of the loan, and if that fails, sell the loan for pennies on the dollar. There's nothing predatory about either. It's loan management. And it's in both parties' self-interest to find terms that can be met because ``no one makes money foreclosing,'' Valentin says.

Cause or Cure?

He estimates the loss of foreclosing at 40 percent to 50 percent of the initial value of the loan.

<b>The problems in the subprime market may be just the tip of the iceberg, given the depth and duration of the housing bubble -- and the money tied up in it.

``We've created an unproductive asset,'' says Joe Carson, director of global economic research at AllianceBernstein. ``A house doesn't produce income.''

Mortgage debt rose by $4.7 trillion from the end of 2000 through the third quarter of 2006, according to the Fed's Flow of Funds report. ``We created as much debt in housing in the last six years as we did in the prior 50,'' Carson says.</b>

After the late 1990s stock market bubble, the economy recovered with a combination of interest-rate relief and income growth, he says.

That rate relief was the cause of the current housing bubble, former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan's claim about the Berlin Wall coming down notwithstanding. How can the cause also be the cure?

(Caroline Baum, author of ``Just What I Said,'' is a columnist for Bloomberg News. The opinions expressed are her own.)

To contact the writer of this column: Caroline Baum in New York at cabaum@bloomberg.net .
Last Updated: March 6, 2007 00:04 EST
You've convinced me that you "feel" good about our recent and continued economic growth, and you've told me that you believe in the "intrinsic value" of residential realty properties. I know, from my own experience, that....when you have to sell, because of the circumstance you find yourself in at a given point in time, even if you have waited, three, four, or more years for a "better market", you sell for the price that "that market" will bear. It is of no consequence, at that moment in time, whether you are selling for less than your own cost, or even for less than it would cost to buy the lot and build a clone of that residence. You can only get what the market into which you are selling, "will bear"
I predict that the decline will last more than ten years, ace, in the majority of US local realty markets....ten years from now, or from sometime in 2005, depending on local conditions. I predict, that...just as the housing boom drove a period of unparalled prosperity for a fortunate, and sizeable minority of American homeowners, speculators, and realty industry participants, and that it is already, and will continue to "spill over"on the broader economy, affecting US GDP to the point of a sustained period of negative GDP, low enough and long enough to be declared by the Federal Reserve as an economic depression, accompanied by double digit unemployment numbers and record personal BK filings and residential foreclosures.
Earliest date when national median home price is equal to that of the high during the last two years, and when new and existing home sales are equal to the highest monthly median number during the last two years, (even a collapse of the dollar would not make both median price and number of units sold, quickly achievable, IMO), is at least no sooner than the spring of 2015, IMO.

aceventura3 03-07-2007 07:38 AM

Here is where I am going to start to see if we have any basis of a common understanding of economic markets.

Lets assume there is a residential property with a fair market rental value of $1500 per month. After expenses (taxes, insurance, maint., etc) the net cash flow is $1,000 per month, assuming no inflation or other variables, and that cashflow held constant for 30 years. What would you be willing to pay for that cash flow?

Discounting the cash flow using 5%, I would pay about $186,000.

Next lets assume the property has a residual value at the end of that 30 years, simply the value of the land and lets i say it is going to be $50,000. How much would you pay today for a lump sum of $50,000 in 30 years?

I would pay about $11,000, discounting at 5%.

If you found such a property that was selling a lot less than $197,000 would you buy it?

I would.

You could argue that there is no guarantee in the rental value being $1,500 per month. That is a good questions and that is the fundamental issue that begs an answer in regard to any real estate bubble bursting. There is a demand for housing. The demand is not getting smaller, it is getting bigger. In most cases supply growth lags demand growth. In none of your posts have you cited a source linking a drop in housing demand and the "crash" or whatever you want to call it. to me it it is obvious that housing demand will not materially change in the overall market, hence there is a floor to the "crash". We know what it is. Property values will drop to their intrinsic values, if that far - because speculator will never completely leave the market.

In the above example if the property is selling for $250,000, it is clearly over valued. But when it drops to $197,000, that is not a "crash", is it? If it dropped to $150,000 smart money will quickly come in, and over a short period of time the value will go back to $197,000

You ask the question where is $800 billion going to come from to replace funds that where taken out of the real-estate market? I know we have discussed this in the past, i.e. in the early '90's money flowed into stocks, then started shifting into real-estate, and will shift into something else. And remember we are really only talking about speculative money.

But the driver of our economy is productivity growth. that combined with job growth will keep our economy going strong. Here is a link from GWB, just so you have something to say is not credible.

Quote:

Job Creation Continues - More Than 7.4 Million Jobs Created Since August 2003

On February 2, 2007, The Government Released New Jobs Figures – 111,000 Jobs Created In January. Since August 2003, more than 7.4 million jobs have been created - more jobs than the European Union and Japan combined. Over half a million jobs (513,000) have been added in the past three months alone. Our economy has now added jobs for 41 straight months, and the unemployment rate remains low at 4.6 percent.

American Workers Are Finding Jobs And Taking Home More Pay

* Real Wages Rose 1.7 Percent In The Past 12 Months. This means an extra $1,030 in the past 12 months for the typical family of four with two wage earners.

* Real After-Tax Income Per Person Has Risen By 9.8 Percent – More Than $2,800 – Since The President Took Office.

* The Economy Grew A Strong 3.5 Percent In The Fourth Quarter Of 2006. The economy grew 3.4 percent last year, up from 3.1 percent in 2005.

* Since The First Quarter Of 2001, Productivity Had Strong Average Annual Growth Of 3.1 Percent. This is well ahead of the average productivity growth in the 1990s, 1980s, and 1970s.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/economy/

Cynthetiq 03-07-2007 08:07 AM

thanks host and ace for your tete a tete... very informative.

and yes, I agree about the housing market demand outstripping the inventory. there are many people out there who do own multiple properties but don't rent. many people in NYC have a city dwelling and a country dwelling. so there are a good number of housing that doesn't make it into the rental inventory.

right now in Vegas there is an interesting point wherein rents and mortgates are about equal, downpayments are disounted heavily in some cases to 1% down. So the Vegas market seesaws back and forth.

Now the biggest benefit that I'm a firm believer in is that more often a home owner is a better community member than a renter. Home owners have more of a stake in community since their values are tied to community health.

host 03-07-2007 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
I just looked a LEND the shares opened at $8.03 on 3/10/03, the company went public in February '03 at $7.31. Today the price is $17.42.

My only question is - why didn't you tell me about this stock 4 years ago? Did you see it is up$1.32 this morning or over 8%. You should start a contrarian investment fund.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

RE: your post #26:


Here's today's trading range on stock symbol, "LEND", ace"

ACCREDITED HOME LE (NasdaqGS:LEND) http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=lend&x=60&y=16
Day's Range: 14.93 - 18.15


....and here is the problem:

The financial "community" in the US sold and "packaged" sub-prime mortgage into MBS's...mortgage backed securities. In order to make it "attractive" to investors to assume the risk associated with buying these "junk" credit reting level
investment "vehicles", the issuers (the crooks at the big brokerage houses), described below....inserted clauses that gave MBS buyers the right to force the sub-prime lenders like LEND and NEW and NFI, to buy them back from the investors if too many of the individual mortgages conatined in a given MSB, defaulted due to non-payment of monthly mortgage payments, during an initial period of a yera or two after the MBS was purchased.
LEND is down today, because stock market participants are finally asking who will buy the MBS's currently being packaged from newly issued sub-prime mortgages.
Weighing against these now failing lenders are returns of formerly sold MBS's accompanied by demands for refunds by the investors who bought them. Difficulty in obtaining new funds to lend on future mortgages sold to home buyers increasingly viewed as poor risk.
Less mortgage and re-fi business due to shrinking numbers of homes sold......

Quote:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/03/...berg/bxatm.php
Around the Markets: Goldman and Merrill almost "junk," their own traders say
By Shannon D. Harrington Bloomberg News
Published: March 5, 2007


NEW YORK: Goldman Sachs, Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley, which earned a record $24.5 billion in 2006, suddenly have become so speculative that their own traders are valuing the three biggest securities firms as barely more creditworthy than junk bonds.

Prices for credit-default swaps linked to the bonds of the New York investment banks this week traded at levels that equate to debt ratings of Baa2, according to Moody's Investors Service.

For Goldman, Morgan Stanley and Merrill, that is five levels below the actual Aa3 rating on their senior unsecured notes, and just two steps above noninvestment grade, or junk.

Traders of credit derivatives fear that a slowdown in housing markets, coupled with the rout on global equity markets, will hurt the companies. Since 2005, Merrill has financed two mortgage lenders that subsequently failed, and bought a third, First Franklin Financial, for $1.3 billion.


Subprime mortgages, which refer to loans taken out by buyers with poor or limited credit histories, typically charge rates at least two or three percentage points above safer prime loans.

They made up about a fifth of all new mortgages last year, according to the Mortgage Bankers Association in Washington.

But at least 20 lenders have shut down, scaled back or been sold this year. Countrywide Financial, the biggest U.S. mortgage lender, said last week that borrowers were at least 30 days past due at the end of last year on almost a fifth of its subprime loans.

Credit-default swaps were conceived by Wall Street to protect bondholders against default and pay the buyer face value in exchange for the underlying securities should the company fail to meet its debt agreements. An increase in price indicates a decline in the perception of creditworthiness; a drop means the opposite.

The swaps on the debt of Goldman, for example, have risen to $32,775 per $10 million in bonds, up from $21,500 at the start of the year, according to prices compiled by CMA Datavision in London. The price touched $35,000 on Wednesday, the highest level since June 2005.

<b>And it is likely that Goldman's own traders were among those pushing the price higher.</b> Goldman and Morgan Stanley were among the top five banks on credit-default swaps in 2005, a group that represented 86 percent of the market, according to Fitch Ratings. Lehman, Merrill and Bear Stearns were among the top 12.

Contracts tied to Morgan Stanley, Merrill, Lehman Brothers Holdings and Bear Stearns are also trading at 19-month highs, and their price increases were larger than an index that measures credit risk for investment-grade companies in North America.

<b>By contrast, default swaps for Deutsche Bank in Germany, which has little exposure to the U.S. housing market, are near a record low at €9,800, $12,935.</b>

A Standard & Poor's index of investment bank stocks has fallen 7.5 percent this year. Merrill shares have dropped 12 percent, while Morgan Stanley has fallen 9.9 percent and Bear Stearns is down 9.4 percent.

Nonetheless, last year was the best ever for the five biggest Wall Street firms, whose combined profit rose 33 percent to $132.5 billion.

"There's been a little bit of a reappraisal of the financial sector, with a strong desire to get away from subprime exposure," said Scott MacDonald, director of research at Aladdin Capital Management in Stamford, Connecticut.

Merrill equity analysts last week cut their recommendations on Goldman, Lehman and Bear Stearns shares as well as that of European banks Deutsche Bank and Credit Suisse Group to "neutral" from "buy" because earnings would probably decline next month.
......added to the above, new "vicious cycle" is the fact that more than 40 percent of recent new home sales were to investors and second home buyers, the liquidation.....foreclosures of individual homes and unsold inventories of home builders, and your "intrinsic value", formula, IMO, is as unpersuasive as your "productivity" argument as an answer to what will replace the support for GDP growth in the coming years, that was the wealth effect from pumping $4.7 trillion into creation of the new mortgage debt that fueled the housing bubble.
The answer, ace, is that the replacement "stimulus" and the replacement jobs to offset the decline caused by the unwinding of the housing boom, just ain't there, and the liquidation that is coming will not be orderly, and will not behave as your "intrinsic value" assumptions would need it to.
There will be huge numbers of formerly employed and prosperous home equity withdrawing, and spending.....former homeowners filing for BK, and looking for the cheapest rental housing that they can afford, and the oversized houses that were recently built in great numbers....the second homes, the homes demanded by now gone flippers, the homes purchased by unqualified, sub-prime buyers with fraudulanlty obtained "no doc" , "low doc", and no down-payment, interest only mortgages, will end up sitting vacant, a new blight on the American landscape, to join the still un-lit, excess fiber optic network buildout of the last malinvestment in America, the internet stock bubble.
Non-productive malinvestment, ace....not the stuff that facilitates a "productivity miracle", like the one that would be needed to make your idea of what will stimulate our economy, now that the housing bubble has blown up.....

aceventura3 03-07-2007 11:28 AM

I am not trying to persuade you or anyone of anything. What we have is just a different view of market economics. That's o.k., when I am a buyer I need sellers like you and when I am a seller I need buyers like you. Either you win or I do. that is what I love about free markets.

Subprime is the problem of the day. Next week there will be a new one. However, the real problem involving entitlements won't go away - social security and medicare.

On LEND - I am not a short-term trader. I just hppened to pick LEND from your list and looked at it in more detail. It is actually not a bad stock. Once it gets through this subprime issue, it will be o.k. Also, your chart doesn't show it but the stock "gapped down in August of '06 on strong volume, it gapped down again in October '06 on strong volume and gapped down again in March. The time to sell was in August or October. Some large institutional investors were clearly getting out at that time and have continued selling. LEND was over-valued, and most likely still has about 20% fat in its price depending on what happens next in the subprime lending market. If it drops to about $13, that would be a good time to buy, assuming about a 6 PE, 6% growth and about an 8% discount rate . The estimated 5 year growth rate is about 10%, but analyst have started making reductions.

jorgelito 03-07-2007 11:55 AM

Ace, I have to add or amend to what you are saying. I don't believe it's a zero-sum game (necessarily), I believe that both parties can be winners. If you sell or buy at a price you like and same for me, then we both win. That's what I like about free markets.

aceventura3 03-07-2007 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito
Ace, I have to add or amend to what you are saying. I don't believe it's a zero-sum game (necessarily), I believe that both parties can be winners. If you sell or buy at a price you like and same for me, then we both win. That's what I like about free markets.

I agree. I got carried away with the discussion in terms of the market being out of balance.

When two parties transact with the same information and the same method for establishing value then it is a question of different variables, i.e. I might use an 8% discount rate and you use 10%, or perhaps you or I are buying and selling for different reasons, like retirement, etc. These transactions are actually the most fun, because you don't mind having lunch with the guy or gal afterward.:)

host 03-10-2007 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
Host,

There is a difference between my approach to a subject and yours. I understand your approach, and that is o.k. because it is grounded in the way people are taught in school.

Often, your research and citations have major fallacious arguments and disconnects with logic and reason. My approach is socratic and doesn't lend itself to blindly reporting the opinions and views of so-called experts or anyone for that matter.....

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...58&postcount=3

ace....I quoted you because your comments remind me of what Greenspan had to say about the <i>"Evolution of the Consumer Finance Market"</i>, less than two years before the "subprime" portion of it, imploded, almost overnight. I read Greenspan's 2005 comments, and I read your comments, and jorgelito's, too....and I have the same reaction to the comments of all three of you....what WERE you thinking....where, on earth, did you get "that stuff"?

ace, jorgelito, and host have all had an opportunity to "paint" their respective opinions on the state of...and the prospects going forward...of the US economy. It is, as it always is here, a competition of the presentaion of ideas and opinions. There are few things that are of greater concern to me than the looming, and probably imminent, economic depression that I see unfolding in front of us. The complacency of those who posted in disagreement is displayed on the same forum pages, in sharp contrast to my presentation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito
Can you please post a source for the Jennifer Love Hewitt underwear ad? Better yet, multiple sources and visual aids so we know what you are talking about and also from a good mix of liberal and conservative sources so that your "facts/opinions" will be well-backed and balanced.

No need to use the "hide" function either. Feel free to bold or highlight areas of "interest" or if you think we can't read the articles for ourselves or if you just want to selectively highlight text that supports your reasonong behind why the Jennifer Love Hewitt underwear ad is great and thus take it out of context and don't forget to cite some previous threads or posts and while you're at it you can quote UsTwo also just to make sure all your bases are covered.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...37&postcount=7

.....fair enough....you read what I've posted....or not.....nothing that follows in this post is highlighted text, but.....I find all of this information...especially Greenspan's "disconnect", and the folly of lending unqualified borrowers 100 percent, $700k "home mortgages", for the purpose of supporting ridiculous "bubble level", residential real estate "valuations", that rose into the stratosphere on earlier stages of the same wave of liquidity, eagerly loaned to borrowers who qualified because they were able to "fog a mirror"....."highlights" of my argument that they economic decline will be a proportional reaction, both in duration and intensity, to the excesses that enabled the accumulation of $4.7 trillion in new mortgage debt in the US, in just six years. The debt (malinvestment) remains to be paid, and the constantly added liquidity required to even maintain real estate valuations at current levels, is now absent, in a system driven by lending that could only be justified, by the ever rising prices that the profligate "easy credit", guaranteed to perpetuate.

Quote:

http://www.federalreserve.gov/BoardD...08/default.htm
Remarks by Chairman Alan Greenspan
Consumer Finance
At the Federal Reserve System’s Fourth Annual Community Affairs Research Conference, Washington, D.C.
April 8, 2005

.....Evolution of the Consumer Finance Market

A brief look back at the evolution of the consumer finance market reveals that the financial services industry has long been competitive, innovative, and resilient. Especially in the past decade, technological advances have resulted in increased efficiency and scale within the financial services industry. Innovation has brought about a multitude of new products, such as subprime loans and niche credit programs for immigrants. Such developments are representative of the market responses that have driven the financial services industry throughout the history of our country.

From colonial times through the early twentieth century, most people had quite limited access to credit, and even when credit was available, it was quite expensive. Only the affluent, such as prominent merchants or landowners, were able to obtain personal loans from commercial banks. Working-class people purchased goods with cash or through barter, since banks did not make consumer loans to the general public.

However, more-intense industrialization and urbanization during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries dramatically changed the market for small consumer loans. Urban wage earners used credit to help them purchase the vast array of durable goods being produced by the new industrial economy, such as automobiles, washing machines, and refrigerators. Naturally, this growth in demand fostered increased competition for consumer credit, and, most important, the development of new intermediaries to supply it. Early in the twentieth century, many new organizations that focused exclusively on the needs of consumers entered the field, and the structure of consumer finance began to change dramatically......

........The Impact of Technology on Financial Services Markets

As has every segment of our economy, the financial services sector has been dramatically transformed by technology. Technological advancements have significantly altered the delivery and processing of nearly every consumer financial transaction, from the most basic to the most complex. For example, information processing technology has enabled creditors to achieve significant efficiencies in collecting and assimilating the data necessary to evaluate risk and make corresponding decisions about credit pricing.

With these advances in technology, lenders have taken advantage of credit-scoring models and other techniques for efficiently extending credit to a broader spectrum of consumers. The widespread adoption of these models has reduced the costs of evaluating the creditworthiness of borrowers, and in competitive markets cost reductions tend to be passed through to borrowers. Where once more-marginal applicants would simply have been denied credit, lenders are now able to quite efficiently judge the risk posed by individual applicants and to price that risk appropriately. These improvements have led to rapid growth in subprime mortgage lending; indeed, today subprime mortgages account for roughly 10 percent of the number of all mortgages outstanding, up from just 1 or 2 percent in the early 1990s.

For some consumers, however, this reliance on technology has been disconcerting. Credit-scoring models are complex algorithms designed to predict risk. Consumer advocates have raised concerns about the transparency and completeness of the information fit to the algorithm, as well as the rigidity of the types of data used to render credit decisions. Consumer advocates contend that the lack of flexibility in the models can result in the exclusion of some consumers, such as those with little or no credit history, or misrepresentation of the risk that they pose.

To address these concerns, some firms have worked to customize credit-scoring systems to include new data and to revalue the weight of the variables employed. Also, new organizations have emerged, developing new systems for collecting alternative data, such as rent payments and other recurring payments that will enable creditors to evaluate creditworthiness of consumers who lack experience with credit.

Improved access to credit for consumers, and especially these more-recent developments, has had significant benefits. Unquestionably, innovation and deregulation have vastly expanded credit availability to virtually all income classes. Access to credit has enabled families to purchase homes, deal with emergencies, and obtain goods and services. Home ownership is at a record high, and the number of home mortgage loans to low- and moderate-income and minority families has risen rapidly over the past five years. Credit cards and installment loans are also available to the vast majority of households.

The more credit availability expands, however, the more important financial education becomes. In this increasingly competitive and complex financial services market, it is essential that consumers acquire the knowledge that will enable them to evaluate products and services from competing providers and determine which best meet their long- and short-term needs. Like all learning, financial education is a process that should begin at an early age and continue throughout life. This cumulative process builds the skills necessary for making critical financial decisions that affect one's ability to attain the assets, such as education, property, and savings, that improve economic well-being.

Conclusion

As we reflect on the evolution of consumer credit in the United States, we must conclude that innovation and structural change in the financial services industry have been critical in providing expanded access to credit for the vast majority of consumers, including those of limited means. Without these forces, it would have been impossible for lower-income consumers to have the degree of access to credit markets that they now have.

This fact underscores the importance of our roles as policymakers, researchers, bankers, and consumer advocates in fostering constructive innovation that is both responsive to market demand and beneficial to consumers.
Quote:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...7.story?page=2
Loan turmoil closes doors for buyers
Mortgage terms are tightening as more sub-prime borrowers default and lenders reel.
By Annette Haddad and E. Scott Reckard, Times Staff Writers
March 10, 2007

ShaRon Lewis is facing a 50% hike in the payment on her adjustable-rate mortgage next month.

This week, she discovered she can't qualify for a new loan with payments that she could afford.

And although she's willing to sell the West Hills home she's owned for two years, she has been told it won't fetch what she paid for it. "I have to laugh to keep from bawling," the 30-something Lewis said.

Her situation is becoming increasingly common across the country amid the implosion of the business of sub-prime mortgages — loans for people with less-than-perfect credit or no credit histories.

Many would-be home buyers, and homeowners who want to refinance, are finding that virtually overnight their status has changed: They no longer are eligible for the kind of easy-credit loans that helped millions of people join the ranks of property owners during the housing boom.....

......As recently as two months ago, consumers could qualify for a home-purchase loan or a refinancing even if they had low credit scores and no cash for a down payment. Not anymore.

"You're back to real credit standards," said Scott Simon, a mortgage expert and money manager at Pacific Investment Management Co. in Newport Beach.

In effect, the industry and new borrowers are paying the price for what many critics say were absurdly generous lending terms in recent years. In 2005 and 2006, mortgage brokers would joke, "If you can fog a mirror, you can get a home loan."

Sub-prime loans mushroomed from $213 billion nationally in 2002, or 7.4% of all mortgages, to $665 billion in 2005, a 21.3% market share, according to trade publication Inside B&C Finance.

The volume in 2006 was $640 billion, or 21.5% of all mortgages — a level regulators and analysts say was achieved by loosening loan standards amid brutal competition as home sales began to slide.....

......Now, sub-prime loans made just last year, many of them for the full value of the homes and without proof of borrowers' incomes, are going into default at a record pace.

For some lenders, nearly 20% of their 2006 sub-prime borrowers are delinquent on payments. And with home prices falling in many parts of the country, many owners can't use the escape hatch of selling their home at a profit to make good on their loans.

Wall Street investment banks had been voracious buyers of sub-prime loans, packaging them for sale to investors via mortgage-backed bonds. Those same banks now are forcing lenders to take back bad loans, devastating the lenders' finances.

The jump in lender failures and the shut-off of credit for marginal borrowers were two of the catalysts behind the stock market's slump last week. This week, even as U.S. market indexes rebounded somewhat, worries about sub-prime loans continued to weigh on investors' mood..........

.......Still, as loan standards tighten for sub-prime and Alt-A borrowers, as many as 1.1 million people could be closed out of the housing market this year, said Dale Westhoff, head of mortgage-backed securities research at brokerage Bear, Stearns & Co., in comments to investors Friday.

That's the unhappy state in which homeowner Lewis finds herself.

Two years ago, when Lewis was looking for a larger house, she easily prequalified for a nearly $700,000 house even though she had no down payment and a spotty credit record. It helped that she was willing to take on two loans to cover 100% of the cost.

"I wasn't completely aware of the mortgage terms but I knew it would adjust in two years," she said. "Properties were still going up at the time, so I felt it might be a good time for me to buy."

But almost as soon as she and her family moved in, Southern California's housing market began to cool off, giving Lewis a chill.

"I knew I was in trouble the very next month, and it's been that way since," she said. Since mid-2005, home values in her neighborhood have flattened.

Although she has shopped around for a new loan, she can't find one that would enable her to keep her monthly payment at its current level, around $4,000. And because her house hasn't risen in value, she can't use equity as a down payment on a refinancing.

Starting next month, her payment is slated to jump to more than $6,000, an amount she says she won't be able to pay.

"It's overwhelming," said Lewis, who hopes that if she can sell her home within the next few months, she can at least break even after closing costs before she misses too many payments.

"I can completely ruin my credit," Lewis said. "Or get out the best way I can."
Quote:

http://www.ocbj.com/industry_article...45&aID2=111162

.......Nearly 13% of the country’s $10 trillion mortgage market is tied to subprime loans, according to the Washington, D.C.-based Mortgage Bankers Association.

The most popular subprime loan—a fixed teaser rate for two years, followed by a floating 28-year rate—has been a boon for first-time homebuyers, not to mention homebuilders targeting that segment of the market.

Factor in slightly less risky Alt-A loans—in between subprime loans and mortgages for those with solid credit—and a typical Orange County homebuilder could have a minimum of 20% of its business tied to buyers with riskier loans, according to a source familiar with the situation.

If subprime and Alt-A loans fall off dramatically as some predict, the market for starter homes could take a hit.

“It’s not just the marginal homeowner sector,” UC Irvine’s Vandell said. “The effect of (a subprime slowdown) could ripple through the rest of the sector. It could put a logjam on the rest of the mortgage market.”........

......During the boom years of the county’s housing market—2002 to 2006—the number of local jobs tied to “financial activities” rose from 110,000 to 139,000. A breakdown of those jobs is hard to determine, but it is reasonable to assume many were related to the subprime sector, said Esmael Adibi, director of the A. Gary Anderson Center for Economic Research at Chapman University in Orange.

Adibi is forecasting an overall loss of 1,000 jobs in financial activities this year, as larger subprime losses drag down growth in other areas. It’s the first sign of annual job losses in the sector since 1999.

“The more important question coming from the (sector’s) troubles is: Is this going to put more pressure on the local housing market? I think it will,” Adibi said.

There’s the prospect of fire sales on home foreclosures. That could have a real dampening effect on home prices, which, so far, only have seen modest declines in the past year........

aceventura3 03-10-2007 08:01 AM

Pay day loan companies and pawn shops are next in line to ruin the economy. More on that next week.

host 03-10-2007 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
Pay day loan companies and pawn shops are next in line to ruin the economy. More on that next week.

On this forum, we all have an opportunity to post competing presentations of opinions and ideas, and....after we've posted them, we "own" them. They are also retrievable via the major search engines. Our posts are a snapshot of what was going on in our minds and they form a record that we can later reference.

jorgelito 03-10-2007 01:54 PM

Complacency? Are you kidding me? Where do you get off host? That is terribly presumptious, pompous, and elitist of you to presume that me and Ace are being complacent. What, just because we hold a different opinion than you? Give me a break!

Competition? Is that how you see this forum as a "competition to post ideas and opinions"? What the hell? What is this, a varisty sport? Dude, this is an internet forum, NOT a junior debate league. Are you actually keeping score at home?

I'm not sure what purpose you had in mind when quoting my post from a completetly different thread (Jennifer Love Hewitt). What does that have to do with the economy discussion here?

Ace, you better make sure that your post on pawn shops and payday loan companies is backed by solid sources and quotes that take up two pages, otherwise, you may "lose the compeition".


Lighten up man, stop making this a contest.

host 03-10-2007 03:29 PM

Quote:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/complacency
Main Entry: com·pla·cen·cy
Pronunciation: -s&n(t)-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -cies
1 : self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by unawareness of actual dangers or deficiencies
Apparently, it is premature to discuss such things as the US economic downturn, already well, underway. In place of actual discussion, responses to the thread OP, and subsequent posted supporting information, is answered with:
Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito
The economy is going great right now!! 2006 and 2007 are slated to be the best in years in terms of jobs and job growth for new graduates. The Fortune 500 are fighting heavily over new grads right now. Employers are offering more incentives and bonuses than ever. The future looks bright.

Didn't the stock market grow like 2000 something points in the past 4-years before last weeks temporary lows?

The real estate market will always ebb and flow, just like anything else. Up and down, up and down. Now and then, now and then. If houses are too expensive or rates too high, then just rent and wait for it to come down. I have missed many "booms" (dot com, stock markets, real estate) but I never panic cause I know I will get my opportunity soon enough. Deferring gratification, patience, making wise decisions will pay off in the end (in my opinion). I never had a chance to capitalize on the low interest rates of the past few years, nor did I get in on the tech boom stocks. but hey, more opportunities will arise.

By the time I will be ready to buy a house, rates will either fall again, or due to the previous frenzy, there will be lots of awesome foreclosures to be had at fantastic prices.

....and:
Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
....I stand by my first post in this thread. The sub-prime definition was my way of illustrating how the term only has meaning in the "eye of the beholder". Given the worse case - what has happend in the subprime market? Some people who were renters became homeowners. Some people who were doing little or no investing bought some investment property. Given that - if they loose - their credit score goes down and the bank owns some real-estate that will be sold at below market prices. When that happens strong investors and strong buyers will benefit. Like the old saying - the rich will get richer.

So again, I ask for the economic guru who can explain what is going to happen to net demand for housing and how long-term, the market goes down. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors and a means to sell newspapers and TV ads.

P.S. Also - if you don't own stock in a subprime lender, didn't get a subprime loan and lost your ability to pay, don't own property in high risk areas what going to happen to you if the subprime market blows up - pretty much nothing. But you say there will be a chain reaction - but thats where you or the economic guru needs to make the link with long-term demand and supply and a short-term market correction. No one has done it yet, other than to say the sky is falling. Last time I checked Chicken Little is not a trained economist.

The competition that is the presentation of ideas and opinion is what the "revolution" of the mass availability of the internet brings to places like this forum. We have the ability to make well documented presentations as we attempt to share/exchange information. This privilege did not exist, during the first 2/3 of my adult lifetime.

If we can't or won't exercise this resource, and set an example of doing so, in depth, in a place like this....a place where we come to discuss politics, where will it ever happen?

We can exchange "banter" in a supermarket check out line, sitting on a barstool, or with neighbors who stroll by, as we are watering our lawn.

If we don't post in favor of a higher level of presentation here, complete with linked text in support of our points, much of the potential of the internet is reduced to just "shooting the shit" with each other. We can do that over on the Gen. Diss. forum...or in the parking lot, and next to the office watercooler.

....and nobody is required to participate in any thread that I author, so I guess that I am unable to see why my thread OP's receive responses that are not competitive and "jack" the topic and the spirit of the intent of the OP ideas and supporting references.....

It makes me feel like Al Greenspan must have....after he spoke about the potential for economic recession in the US, and this "response" came:
Quote:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,257002,00.html
FOXNEWS.COM HOME > FOX FAN CENTRAL > COLUMNS
"Two Words Mr. Greenspan: Shut Up"

By Terry Keenan

Alan Greenspan, former Federal Reserve Chairman.

There he goes again. Just in time for his 81st birthday, former Fed Chief Alan Greenspan is showing once again who's still the boss when it comes to commanding the attention of markets, here and around the globe. And this time, he's putting odds on his predictions.....

........Which raises the question on the minds of many investors: is it unseemly for 81-year-old Greenspan to earn millions with statements that last cost investors about a trillion dollars in lost market value? Even though he is out of office, is Greenspan somehow violating the public trust, much in the way a former CIA chief might if his paid remarks warned of an impending threat from a sworn U.S. enemy?

Tough questions, but there's no doubt that there has been a bull market in outrage over Greenspan's comments. As Gary Kaltbaum of Kaltbaum Associates put it: "Two words, Mr. Greenspan: shut up."

Adding to the considerable consternation is that this isn't the first time private citizen Greenspan has been criticized, both for his remarks and for the venue in which he chose to express them. Remember the private meeting with fewer than a dozen top clients of Lehman Brothers a year ago? As word leaked out, those remarks jolted markets as well.

When Greenspan was Fed Chief, he knew all too well that even a few words taken out of context could rock world markets — think back to "irrational exuberance?" Now, with no cameras trained on his every word, Greenspan's words need to be chosen with even greater care. Not only would a little more discretion on Al's part please the markets, it would make Ben Bernanke's job a whole lot easier as well.
Is the equity market so fragile that a tepid description of forward risks by Mr. Greenspan, justifies such harsh criticism of him personally and a "STFU" title?

Would that Terry Keenan, and ace and jorgelito, exhibibit some curiousity and concern as to how Richard Syron, got the job of heading Freddie Mac, and then....only after his GSE's ridiculously lax lending policy provided the liquidity that drove housing prices to unsustainable and unreasonable valuations in the first place, sees a need to "toughen" lending rules, now that lending to unqualified and poorly documented mortgage applicants cannot be further justified on the grounds that even the massive liquidity flowing from his agency is not enough to assure that it is fine to lend to people who have poor credit and "no money down" because doing so would continue to push up the valuations of all homes.

I'm also wondering why Freddie Mac would ever purchase the mortgage loans of home buyers who were unqualified and had little or no downpayment at the time they applied, and I'm more concerned as to why Richard Syron still has his job, than I can be about any comments made by Greenspan about economic risks.

Quote:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/17359800/site...lnk&cd=3&gl=us
Freddie Mac Toughens Standards For Buying Subprime Mortgages
Companies:Freddie Mac
By CNBC.com | 27 Feb 2007 | 01:04 PM

.....In an exclusive appearance on CNBC, Richard Syron, Chairman and CEO of Freddie Mac, said he was taking the action now because borrowers have been squeezed by higher interest rates and falling housing prices.

"At a time when housing prices were going up 5% a year, and it went up 10% in two years, if someone paid 5% to get a mortgage, they were still ahead," said Syron. "But in the last few months, housing prices have softened."

Iin addition, Freddie Mac will limit the use of low-documentation loans where borrowers cannot verify their income.

The new standards won't take effect until Sept. 1, 2007 because Freddie Mac wanted a transition period.

"We don't want people that have things in the pipeline now or may be in a position that they have to refinance in the very short run to be squeezed out of the market," said Syron.

Freddie Mac has financed about 50 million homes. Syron says the company is developing new, more consumer-friendly subprime products.
I guess that our respective concerns are driven by our individual priorities....

jorgelito 03-10-2007 05:03 PM

No Host, you are quite wrong. It is disingenuous to presume that Ace and I don't care or are cavalier about your topics. Just because we disagree with your position does not mean we do not care.

Who says it's premature to discuss the economy? I didn't. I just offered you a different opinion. I think it is quite rude of you to dismiss my post (and Ace's) as not "actual discussion". Accusations of thread jacks and violating the "spirit of intent" are also petty and catty. People respond to your threads because they are interested in the topics or want to discuss the issues that you have put forth. Again, people have differing opinions so it really should not be a surprise when that is reflected in the responses. But to accuse us of thread jacking or not submitting valid responses or not enough sources or violating the spirit of the thread is just really low and childish.

I gave you the best source and citation of all. My own personal experience. Not some sanitized and disengaged anonymous internet source from some egg head in an ivory tower. My own personal experience. Are you trying to tell me that doesn't count? Additionally, my post that you quoted here is backed by facts. I didn't just pull them out of the blue. I find it interesting that you only take issue with peope's lack of citation of sources when their opinion disagrees with yours. I have never seen you bash or snidely attack other's posts that agreed with your position. Why is that? Double standard?

No wonder UsTwo left.

Sorry buddy, you can't have it both ways. If you want discussion and responses to your thread, you're just gonna have to accept differing opinions, you can't dictate what people write.

aceventura3 03-12-2007 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host
If we don't post in favor of a higher level of presentation here, complete with linked text in support of our points, much of the potential of the internet is reduced to just "shooting the shit" with each other. We can do that over on the Gen. Diss. forum...or in the parking lot, and next to the office watercooler.

We can not get off of first base because of a fundemental difference in your view of economics and mine.

Example:

If widgets historically sell for $1.
$1 is the generally accepted value of a widget, given all production costs and reasonable profit.
Then speculators enter the market, and over time they bid the price up to $100. They buy, sell, finance, profit, etc. because of this speculation.
Then over a shorter period of time the value of widgets goes back to $1.

You seem to want to call the drop from $100 to $1 a crash. You seem to use the logic that the drop from $100 to $1 will have a lasting adverse impact on the market in which these widgets sell.

Since we don't see the above the same, You can post reams of material supporting your view and I can do the same, and the exchange of that data was a waste.

When I was on my highschool debate team, the first thing the coach always said was define your terms. I tried to get you to do that with subprime, but in all the material you posted, none of it defined what was actually meant by subprime. Hell, almost nobody can get a loan at prime, and almost nobody who needs a loan goes into the process as a "prime" loan candidate. Everyone has some potential re-payment risk.

Perhaps you should stop ignoring direct questions.

host 03-12-2007 10:24 AM

ace....I can't answer your question, because your comments aren't even on the same dimension as the OP and the posts of other members....well yeah...I guess jorgelito is commenting in your dimension....

Residential real estate valuations are built on easy availability to liquidity, and that easy availability is gone now. It drove the RE market, and it drove this country's economy, and even in it's slightly diminished level, until now....it propped up the perception of current (recent )home and current (recent) stock
valuations. Now, beginning in earnest, in the public's eye, anyway, the liguidity availability, the curret "prop" it gave to valuations, and the "mo mo" it provided until the latter part of 2005....is going away....and this has all the makings of an initial period of an absence of liquidity driven, economic depression in the US:
Quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/11/bu...gewanted=print
March 11, 2007
News Analysis
Crisis Looms in Market for Mortgages
By GRETCHEN MORGENSON

On March 1, a Wall Street analyst at Bear Stearns wrote an upbeat report on a company that specializes in making mortgages to cash-poor homebuyers. The company, New Century Financial, had already disclosed that a growing number of borrowers were defaulting, and its stock, at around $15, had lost half its value in three weeks.

What happened next seems all too familiar to investors who bought technology stocks in 2000 at the breathless urging of Wall Street analysts. Last week, New Century said it would stop making loans and needed emergency financing to survive. The stock collapsed to $3.21.

The analyst’s untimely call, coupled with a failure among other Wall Street institutions to identify problems in the home mortgage market, isn’t the only familiar ring to investors who watched the technology stock bubble burst precisely seven years ago.

Now, as then, Wall Street firms and entrepreneurs made fortunes issuing questionable securities, in this case pools of home loans taken out by risky borrowers. Now, as then, bullish stock and credit analysts for some of those same Wall Street firms, which profited in the underwriting and rating of those investments, lulled investors with upbeat pronouncements even as loan defaults ballooned. Now, as then, regulators stood by as the mania churned, fed by lax standards and anything-goes lending.

Investment manias are nothing new, of course. But the demise of this one has been broadly viewed as troubling, as it involves the nation’s $6.5 trillion mortgage securities market, which is larger even than the United States treasury market.

Hanging in the balance is the nation’s housing market, which has been a big driver of the economy. Fewer lenders means many potential homebuyers will find it more difficult to get credit, while hundreds of thousands of homes will go up for sale as borrowers default, further swamping a stalled market.

“The regulators are trying to figure out how to work around it, but the Hill is going to be in for one big surprise,” said Josh Rosner, a managing director at Graham-Fisher & Company, an independent investment research firm in New York, and an expert on mortgage securities. “This is far more dramatic than what led to Sarbanes-Oxley,” he added, referring to the legislation that followed the WorldCom and Enron scandals, “both in conflicts and in terms of absolute economic impact.”

While real estate prices were rising, the market for home loans operated like a well-oiled machine, providing ready money to borrowers and high returns to investors like pension funds, insurance companies, hedge funds and other institutions. Now this enormous and important machine is sputtering, and the effects are reverberating throughout Main Street, Wall Street and Washington.

Already, more than two dozen mortgage lenders have failed or closed their doors, and shares of big companies in the mortgage industry have declined significantly. Delinquencies on loans made to less creditworthy borrowers — known as subprime mortgages — recently reached 12.6 percent. Some banks have reported rising problems among borrowers that were deemed more creditworthy as well.

Traders and investors who watch this world say the major participants — Wall Street firms, credit rating agencies, lenders and investors — are holding their collective breath and hoping that the spring season for home sales will reinstate what had been a go-go market for mortgage securities. Many Wall Street firms saw their own stock prices decline over their exposure to the turmoil.

“I guess we are a bit surprised at how fast this has unraveled,” said Tom Zimmerman, head of asset-backed securities research at UBS, in a recent conference call with investors.

Even now the tone accentuates the positive. In a recent presentation to investors, UBS Securities discussed the potential for losses among some mortgage securities in a variety of housing markets. None of the models showed flat or falling home prices, however.

The Bear Stearns analyst who upgraded New Century, Scott R. Coren, wrote in a research note that the company’s stock price reflected the risks in its industry, and that the downside risk was about $10 in a “rescue-sale scenario.” According to New Century, Bear Stearns is among the firms with a “longstanding” relationship financing its mortgage operation. Mr. Coren, through a spokeswoman, declined to comment.

Others who follow the industry have voiced more caution. Thomas A. Lawler, founder of Lawler Economic and Housing Consulting, said: “It’s not that the mortgage industry is collapsing, it’s just that the mortgage industry went wild and there are consequences of going wild.

“I think there is no doubt that home sales are going to be weaker than most anybody who was forecasting the market just two months ago thought. For those areas where the housing market was already not too great, where inventories were at historically high levels and it finally looked like things were stabilizing, this is going to be unpleasant.”

Like worms that surface after a torrential rain, revelations that emerge when an asset bubble bursts are often unattractive, involving dubious industry practices and even fraud. In the coming weeks, some mortgage market participants predict, investors will learn not only how lax real estate lending standards became, but also how hard to value these opaque securities are and how easy their values are to prop up.

Owners of mortgage securities that have been pooled, for example, do not have to reflect the prevailing market prices of those securities each day, as stockholders do. Only when a security is downgraded by a rating agency do investors have to mark their holdings to the market value. As a result, traders say, many investors are reporting the values of their holdings at inflated prices.

“How these things are valued for portfolio purposes is exposed to management judgment, which is potentially arbitrary,” Mr. Rosner said.

At the heart of the turmoil is the subprime mortgage market, which developed to give loans to shaky borrowers or to those with little cash to put down as collateral. Some 35 percent of all mortgage securities issued last year were in that category, up from 13 percent in 2003.

Looking to expand their reach and their profits, lenders were far too willing to lend, as evidenced by the creation of new types of mortgages — known as “affordability products” — that required little or no down payment and little or no documentation of a borrower’s income. Loans with 40-year or even 50-year terms were also popular among cash-strapped borrowers seeking low monthly payments. Exceedingly low “teaser” rates that move up rapidly in later years were another feature of the new loans.

The rapid rise in the amount borrowed against a property’s value shows how willing lenders were to stretch. In 2000, according to Banc of America Securities, the average loan to a subprime lender was 48 percent of the value of the underlying property. By 2006, that figure reached 82 percent.

Mortgages requiring little or no documentation became known colloquially as “liar loans.” An April 2006 report by the Mortgage Asset Research Institute, a consulting concern in Reston, Va., analyzed 100 loans in which the borrowers merely stated their incomes, and then looked at documents those borrowers had filed with the I.R.S. The resulting differences were significant: in 90 percent of loans, borrowers overstated their incomes 5 percent or more. But in almost 60 percent of cases, borrowers inflated their incomes by more than half.

A Deutsche Bank report said liar loans accounted for 40 percent of the subprime mortgage issuance last year, up from 25 percent in 2001.

Securities backed by home mortgages have been traded since the 1970s, but it has been only since 2002 or so that investors, including pension funds, insurance companies, hedge funds and other institutions, have shown such an appetite for them.

Wall Street, of course, was happy to help refashion mortgages from arcane and illiquid securities into ubiquitous and frequently traded ones. Its reward is that it now dominates the market. While commercial banks and savings banks had long been the biggest lenders to home buyers, by 2006, Wall Street had a commanding share — 60 percent — of the mortgage financing market, Federal Reserve data show.

The big firms in the business are Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, Deutsche Bank and UBS. They buy mortgages from issuers, put thousands of them into pools to spread out the risks and then divide them into slices, known as tranches, based on quality. Then they sell them.

The profits from packaging these securities and trading them for customers and their own accounts have been phenomenal. At Lehman Brothers, for example, mortgage-related businesses contributed directly to record revenue and income over the last three years.

The issuance of mortgage-related securities, which include those backed by home-equity loans, peaked in 2003 at more than $3 trillion, according to data from the Bond Market Association. Last year’s issuance, reflecting a slowdown in home price appreciation, was $1.93 trillion, a slight decline from 2005.

In addition to enviable growth, the mortgage securities market has undergone other changes in recent years. In the 1990s, buyers of mortgage securities spread out their risk by combining those securities with loans backed by other assets, like credit card receivables and automobile loans. But in 2001, investor preferences changed, focusing on specific types of loans. Mortgages quickly became the favorite.

Another change in the market involves its trading characteristics. Years ago, mortgage-backed securities appealed to a buy-and-hold crowd, who kept the securities on their books until the loans were paid off. “You used to think of mortgages as slow moving,” said Glenn T. Costello, managing director of structured finance residential mortgage at Fitch Ratings. “Now it has become much more of a trading market, with a mark-to-market bent.”

The average daily trading volume of mortgage securities issued by government agencies like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, for example, exceeded $250 billion last year. That’s up from about $60 billion in 2000.

Wall Street became so enamored of the profits in mortgages that it began to expand its reach, buying companies that make loans to consumers to supplement its packaging and sales operations. In August 2006, Morgan Stanley bought Saxon, a $6.5 billion subprime mortgage underwriter, for $706 million.

And last September, Merrill Lynch paid $1.3 billion to buy First Franklin Financial, a home lender in San Jose, Calif. At the time, Merrill said it expected First Franklin to add to its earnings in 2007. Now analysts expect Merrill to take a large loss on the purchase.

Indeed, on Feb. 28, as the first fiscal quarter ended for many big investment banks, Wall Street buzzed with speculation that the firms had slashed the value of their numerous mortgage holdings, recording significant losses.

As prevailing interest rates remained low over the last several years, the appetite for these securities only rose. In the ever-present search for high yields, buyers clamored for securities that contained subprime mortgages, which carry interest rates that are typically one to two percentage points higher than traditional loans. Mortgage securities participants say increasingly lax lending standards in these loans became almost an invitation to commit mortgage fraud. It is too early to tell how significant a role mortgage fraud played in the rocketing delinquency rates — 12.6 percent among subprime borrowers. Delinquency rates among all mortgages stood at 4.7 percent in the third quarter of 2006.

For years, investors cared little about risks in mortgage holdings. That is changing.

“I would not be surprised if between now and the end of the year at least 20 percent of BBB and BBB- bonds that are backed by subprime loans originated in 2006 will be downgraded,” Mr. Lawler said.

Still, the rating agencies have yet to downgrade large numbers of mortgage securities to reflect the market turmoil. Standard & Poor’s has put 2 percent of the subprime loans it rates on watch for a downgrade, and Moody’s said it has downgraded 1 percent to 2 percent of such mortgages that were issued in 2005 and 2006.

Fitch appears to be the most proactive, having downgraded 3.7 percent of subprime mortgages in the period.

The agencies say that they are confident that their ratings reflect reality in the mortgages they have analyzed and that they have required managers of mortgage pools with risky loans in them to increase the collateral. A spokesman for S.& P. said the firm made its ratings requirements more stringent for subprime issuers last summer and that they shored up the loans as a result.

Meeting with Wall Street analysts last week, Terry McGraw, chief executive of McGraw-Hill, the parent of S.& P., said the firm does not believe that loans made in 2006 will perform “as badly as some have suggested.”

Nevertheless, some investors wonder whether the rating agencies have the stomach to downgrade these securities because of the selling stampede that would follow. Many mortgage buyers cannot hold securities that are rated below investment grade — insurance companies are an example. So if the securities were downgraded, forced selling would ensue, further pressuring an already beleaguered market.

Another consideration is the profits in mortgage ratings. Some 6.5 percent of Moody’s 2006 revenue was related to the subprime market.

Brian Clarkson, Moody’s co-chief operating officer, denied that the company hesitates to cut ratings. “We made assumptions early on that we were going to have worse performance in subprime mortgages, which is the reason we haven’t seen that many downgrades,” he said. “If we have something that is investment grade that we need to take below investment grade, we will do it.”

Interestingly, accounting conventions in mortgage securities require an investor to mark his holdings to market only when they get downgraded. So investors may be assigning higher values to their positions than they would receive if they had to go into the market and find a buyer. That delays the reckoning, some analysts say.

“There are delayed triggers in many of these investment vehicles and that is delaying the recognition of losses,” Charles Peabody, founder of Portales Partners, an independent research boutique in New York, said. “I do think the unwind is just starting. The moment of truth is not yet here.”

On March 2, reacting to the distress in the mortgage market, a throng of regulators, including the Federal Reserve Board, asked lenders to tighten their policies on lending to those with questionable credit. Late last week, WMC Mortgage, General Electric’s subprime mortgage arm, said it would no longer make loans with no down payments.

Meanwhile, investors wait to see whether the spring home selling season will shore up the mortgage market. If home prices do not appreciate or if they fall, defaults will rise, and pension funds and others that embraced the mortgage securities market will have to record losses. And they will likely retreat from the market, analysts said, affecting consumers and the overall economy.

A paper published last month by Mr. Rosner and Joseph R. Mason, an associate professor of finance at Drexel University’s LeBow College of Business, assessed the potential problems associated with disruptions in the mortgage securities market. They wrote: “Decreased funding for residential mortgage-backed securities could set off a downward spiral in credit availability that can deprive individuals of home ownership and substantially hurt the U.S. economy.”
...two things......ace, the above NY Times article appeared on page one, above the fold.....on the front page of the most widely circulated sunday newspaper in the US.

....and check the current stock prices of the four stocks that I posted charts on, a week ago. You could have made some $$$, like I did, shortselling or buying put contracts, like I did....I gave you free advice, ace.......that you could (and still can....) profit on.....what are you giving me....or most of the other readers....besides "smoke", up where the sun "done" shine?

aceventura3 03-12-2007 10:41 AM

[QUOTE=host]
Here is an article from WSJ.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1173..._whats_news_us
Quote:

NEW YORK -- As more financially stretched homeowners renege on their debts, and mortgage lenders go under by the dozen, economists are surprisingly sanguine about the broader economy's ability to weather the storm. But they add a big caveat: Much depends on how investors react to an increasing wave of worrying news, and how much some homeowners' difficulties aggravate the nation's deep housing slump.

By all accounts, the market for "subprime" mortgages -- home loans made to people with poor or sketchy credit histories -- has unraveled with impressive speed and intensity. In some parts of California, the proportion of seriously delinquent subprime loans has quadrupled in the past year to about one in eight, according to data provider First American LoanPerformance. In the past month, subprime lenders have run into serious trouble or shut their doors at a rate of about two a week.

The stock prices of Wall Street investment banks have gyrated amid concerns some big financial firms could find themselves exposed -- fallout that could further spook investors and trigger a new bout of selling in stock and bond markets.

So far, though, many economists -- including Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke -- haven't changed their forecasts as a result of the subprime troubles. Some see the sharp rise in defaults among riskier borrowers as a natural, albeit acute, symptom of the housing slump that began in late 2005, rather than a separate ailment in itself. With house prices falling, consumers who got no-money-down mortgages with the help of loose lending standards, have little to lose by walking away from their homes and debts.

"No doubt some of the worst practices of the housing boom are going to yield some payback," says Steve Wieting, senior U.S. economist at Citigroup in New York. "But it's not large enough to derail an otherwise healthy economy."

He expects inflation-adjusted gross domestic product, a broad measure of the nation's economic activity, to expand 2.6% this year, slower than normal but well short of a recession.

The main reason for economists' equanimity: Those who took out subprime loans tend to be less-affluent consumers who make up a relatively small share of consumer spending, the most important driver of the U.S. economy. Labor Department data show that the fifth of U.S. households with the lowest incomes account for about 8% of all consumer outlays, while the most-affluent fifth accounts for nearly 40% of spending.

Meanwhile, the unemployment rate remains relatively low and incomes have been rising, suggesting poorer people have some resources to spend, even if they can't afford their homes and can't borrow money.
[chart]

That said, the subprime mess has added some risks. The possibility economists fret about most is that investors and lenders will react to rising defaults by pulling back from all kinds of borrowers, good and bad -- the sort of "credit crunch" that has triggered recessions in the past.

"One of the things to worry about is how much markets are worrying," says Andrew Tilton, senior U.S. economist at Goldman Sachs in New York. "A contagion in the credit markets based on fear is a possibility, though we don't think that's the most likely scenario."

In the past few weeks, investors have become more wary of lending to risky borrowers. The annual cost of default insurance on $10 million in riskier bonds backed by commercial real-estate loans stands at about $9,600, up from less than $6,000 before the stock-market plunge of Feb. 27. Bonds issued by companies with shakier finances -- known as "junk" bonds -- yield nearly 2.8 percentage points more than comparable Treasury bonds. That gap stood at 2.5 percentage points Feb. 22.

Most consumers and businesses, though, still have access to money. U.S. companies have issued billions of dollars in junk bonds in the past few weeks, despite higher borrowing rates. The subprime problems haven't had a major effect on auto lenders.

"It's hard to make the argument that weakness in the subprime mortgage market will have an effect on auto subprime loans," says Hylton Heard, director of asset-backed securities for autos at Fitch Ratings, a credit-rating firm. "They're two different assets."

For one thing, it is quicker and easier to repossess a car than to foreclose a mortgage. That suggests people would be more likely to keep up their car payments so they can get to jobs that help them pay their other bills.

Still, the pullback in credit for subprime-mortgage borrowers could have a meaningful effect on its own. As some potential home buyers find it harder to get money and more bad loans beget more foreclosures, the decreased demand and increased supply of homes could depress prices, deepening the housing slump.

Ethan Harris, chief U.S. economist at Lehman Brothersin New York, estimates foreclosures in the subprime market could bring an additional 15,000 to 20,000 homes on to the U.S. market every month starting next year.

The pain could be particularly acute in frothy markets such as California and Florida, and in depressed places such as parts of Ohio and the auto-producing areas of Michigan. In some areas in and around Detroit, Cleveland and Atlanta, subprime loans make up more than half of all mortgage loans outstanding, according to First American LoanPerformance.

"In some of these regions you could have a pretty tough environment, in which a bad local economy, tightening credit and weakening home prices all kind of reinforce each other," says Mr. Harris
Now what?

Lets clarify the issue in question. Can you state your premise - in one paragraph.

host 03-12-2007 11:11 AM

[QUOTE=aceventura3]
Quote:

Originally Posted by host
Here is an article from WSJ.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1173..._whats_news_us


Now what?

Lets clarify the issue in question. Can you state your premise - in one paragraph.

ace....your WSJ article is wrapped around the same conflict of interest as this
is:

Quote:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...8EF19A722BA%7D
New Century upgraded at Bear Stearns

By Alistair Barr, MarketWatch
Last Update: 4:19 PM ET Mar 1, 2007

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- New Century Financial Corp. was upgraded Thursday by analysts at Bear Stearns, saying the risk of the subprime lender's shares falling further is limited by the potential for an acquisition of the struggling business.
Shares of New Century (NEW :
new century financial corp m com
News , chart , profile , more
Last: 3.21-0.66-17.05%
2:00pm 03/12/2007
Delayed quote data

NEW3.21, -0.66, -17.1% ) were lifted to peer perform from underperform by Scott Coren and Michael Nannizzi at Bear Stearns.
The shares climbed almost 3%to $15.78 during afternoon trading Thursday. They've still slumped almost 50% so far this year due to signs of a credit crunch in the subprime-mortgage industry.
Subprime mortgages are offered to home buyers who fail to meet the strictest lending standards. Companies like New Century that specialize in these types of loans have suffered as housing prices stopped rising and interest rates climbed from record lows. See full story.
New Century slashed its forecast for loan production earlier this year because early-payment defaults and loan repurchases have led to tighter underwriting guidelines. The company also said that it has to restate most of its results from 2006 because of mistakes in how it accounted for losses on repurchased loans.
Chart of NEW
If New Century is forced to sell itself or liquidate, the stock could still be worth $10 to $11, according to Coren and Nannizzi. ......
Quote:

http://www.denverpost.com/extremes/ci_5417984
Foreclosures may hit 1.5 million across U.S.
By Bob Ivry
Bloomberg News
Article Last Updated: 03/12/2007 10:00:48 AM MDT

....'Too Early to Tell'

"It's a little too early to tell how it shakes out for investment banks," said Andrew Davidson, president of New York- based Andrew Davidson & Co., which advises fixed-income investors on mortgage bonds. "If it turns out that they have large losses, the investment banks tend not to be very forgiving and usually terminate businesses that haven't worked for them." <h3>Dale Westhoff, a senior managing director at New York-based Bear Stearns Cos., the largest underwriter of mortgage bonds, said last week that failing subprime lenders "are going to be absorbed very quickly."</h3> "Hedge funds and private equity are going to play a very important role in buying distressed assets," Westhoff said. ......
ace....the markets are "rigged"....the "tell" is that the "largest underwriter of mortgage bonds is the same firm whose anal-ysts are "talking up" the stock price of one of the "top three" sub-prime lenders, "NEW", a company that fed Bear Stearns the crappy loans that it put lipstick on, and sold as "securitized" bonds. Your WSJ article is more or that "happy talk", BS propaganda from the big investment banks....because if they told the truth, the housing market would crash from a liquidity crunch, and the "bottom lines" of these "big boy" thieves, would be negatively impacted.

This "scam" came with the, at least "tacit" approval of federal regulators, and Fannie and Freddie management. The losers....the bagholders, will be every J6P who works in a home or mortgage related industry....and later....by sometime in 2008, most of the rest of us...

ace....when the "BS" anal-ysts upgrade "NEW", eleven days ago....the stock's price was above $15. Trading is halted now by NYSE...."NEW" closed friday at $3.21 per share.... my Level II screen (real time stock quotes)....shows, when and if trading in "NEW" resumes, the bid is $1.65 and the ask is $1.68....why don't the Bear Stearns shills who claimed it would be worth...worse case....above $10 per share, just ten days ago, buy "NEW" for their investment bank.....

ace.....I can lead you to it, but I can't make you see. All of the signs are there....and the thieves who run Wall Street, and the FED/Fannie/Freddie, and every real estate agent and mortgage banker who gets in front of a mic, or in print, will soft peddle this decline to depression, all the way to the bottom.....down, down, down....on a wall of (misguided) hope!

aceventura3 03-12-2007 11:22 AM

[QUOTE=host][QUOTE=aceventura3]
ace....your WSJ article is wrapped around the same conflict of interest as this
is:



Quote:

ace....the markets are "rigged"....the "tell" is that the "largest underwriter of mortgage bonds is the same firm whose anal-ysts are "talking up" the stock price of one of the "top three" sub-prime lenders, "NEW", a company that fed Bear Stearns the crappy loans that it put lipstick on, and sold as "securitized" bonds.
People who invest in mortgage backed bonds don't invest in subprime lenders. Often when a subprime lender packages and sells the loans they originate, they either guarnatee or buy insurance against defaults. The subprime loans are often packaged with prime loans, dispersing the risk to the mortgage backed security investor. No matter how you slice it the mortgage backed securities are backed up by real-estate. I believe mortgage backed securities are a relatively safe investment.

Saying the market is rigged for the reason stated assumes people investing billions of dollars are fools.


Quote:

Your WSJ article is more or that "happy talk", BS propaganda from the big investment banks....because if they told the truth, the housing market would crash from a liquidity crunch, and the "bottom lines" of these "big boy" thieves, would be negatively impacted.

This "scam" came with the, at least "tacit" approval of federal regulators, and Fannie and Freddie management. The losers....the bagholders, will be every J6P who works in a home or mortgage related industry....and later....by sometime in 2008, most of the rest of us...

ace....when the "BS" anal-ysts upgrade "NEW", eleven days ago....the stock's price was above $15. Trading is halted now by NYSE...."NEW" closed friday at $3.21 per share.... my Level II screen (real time stock quotes)....shows, when and if trading in "NEW" resumes, the bid is $1.65 and the ask is $1.68....why don't the Bear Stearns shills who claimed it would be worth...worse case....above $10 per share, just ten days ago, buy "NEW" for their investment bank.....

ace.....I can lead you to it, but I can't make you see. All of the signs are there....and the thieves who run Wall Street, and the FED/Fannie/Freddie, and every real estate agent and mortgage banker who gets in front of a mic, or in print, will soft peddle this decline to depression, all the way to the bottom.....down, down, down....on a wall of (misguided) hope!
My article is "happy talk" or bullshit, and yours is o.k. since its from the New York Times. This is how you want to have a serious discussion?

jorgelito 03-12-2007 11:25 AM

Here you go guys (and Host :) ). Hopefully this post is more in line with what you prefer.

The economy is fine. It will go up at times and it will go down at times. It will be overvalued at times and be undervalued at times. Some people will lose their jobs, others will gain new jobs. Every now and then there will be a crash and the cycle will repeat. I see no reason to panic.

Deficit is down.

Quote:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070312/...AiAd1kfAtv24cA

Federal deficit down sharply this period

By MARTIN CRUTSINGER, AP Economics Writer 29 minutes ago

The deficit for the first five months of the budget year is down sharply from a year ago as the growth in government tax collections continues to outpace growth in spending.

The Treasury Department reported that the deficit from October through February totaled $162.2 billion, down 25.5 percent from the same period last year.

That improvement came even though the deficit in February hit $120 billion, up 0.6 percent from last February's deficit of $119.2 billion.

The government had larger-than-expected surpluses in December and January.

For the budget year that began Oct. 1, revenues are up by 9.3 percent to a record $954.4 billion.

Spending for the period also set a record at $1.117 trillion, but that 2.3 percent rise was slower than the growth in revenues, resulting in a lower deficit.

The Bush administration is forecasting that the deficit for this year will total $244 billion, a slight improvement from the $248.2 billion actual deficit for the 20006.

However, the Congressional Budget Office is more optimistic, forecasting that the deficit for the current budget year should decline to $214 billion. That forecast assumes that Congress will approve President Bush's supplemental spending request for the war in Iraq.

The $248.2 billion deficit for 2006 was the smallest deficit in four years and down significantly from the all-time high, in dollar terms, of $413 billion in 2004.
The stock market has "corrected" itself.

Quote:

Stocks Turn Positive After Merger News
Monday March 12, 2:50 pm ET
By Tim Paradis, AP Business Writer
Stocks Rise As Investors Try to Look Past Subprime Lender Woes

NEW YORK (AP) -- Stocks climbed Monday as investors tried to look past widening cracks in the subprime lending sector and looked to another parade of acquisition deals as a bullish sign for stocks.

A warning from New Century Financial Corp. early Monday about its financial woes initially overshadowed the merger news with concerns that a blowup among companies making loans to consumers with poor credit will spill over into other industries.

Amid the din over subprime lenders, buyout news offered some support for stocks. Word that private-equity company Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co. struck a deal to acquire Dollar General Corp. pleased investors, as did news that Schering-Plough Inc. would acquire the Organon BioSciences BV pharmaceuticals business of Akzo Nobel NV, the Dutch maker of chemicals and coatings, for $14.5 billion.

Investors also appeared pleased by a report that the federal deficit for the first five months of the fiscal year is down 25.5 percent from a year earlier.

In midafternoon trading, the Dow Jones industrial average rose 52.40, or 0.43 percent, to 12,328.72.

Broader stock indicators also rose. The Standard & Poor's 500 index advanced 4.44, or 0.32 percent, to 1,407.29, and the Nasdaq composite index rose 13.28, or 0.56 percent, to 2,400.83.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/12/mark...ion=2007031214
CNNmoney

Quote:

Techs manage gains
By Alexandra Twin, CNNMoney.com senior writer
March 12 2007: 2:16 PM EDT

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Technology shares rose Monday afternoon, livening up an otherwise mixed market as investors weighed a spate of merger and acquisition news with the latest problems for the subprime mortgage lenders.

The Dow Jones industrial average (up 22.52 to 12,298.84, Charts) added a few points with roughly 2 hours left in the session, while the broader S&P 500 (up 0.71 to 1,403.56, Charts) index hovered near unchanged. The tech-heavy Nasdaq (up 6.89 to 2,394.44, Charts) composite gained 0.3 percent.

Stocks rose last week, as investors recovered a bit from the previous week's selloff. But the new week started on a tentative note, as investors weighed competing influences at the start of a busy week for economic news. Reports due later in the week include retail sales, producer and consumer prices and manufacturing.

"Basically, we're in a holding pattern right now," said Peter Cardillo, chief market economist at Avalon Partners. "The impact of what happened a few weeks ago is behind us, and the market is trying to consolidate."

Cardillo said that stocks were also a little choppy because of the worries about subprime and because Friday is a quadruple witching day. The quarterly event in which stock futures and options and stock index futures and options all expire simultaneously can cause gyrations in the underlying issues.

Select technology shares gained, with Apple (up $1.58 to $89.55, Charts), Oracle (up $0.35 to $16.98, Charts), Intel (up $0.35 to $19.45, Charts) and Yahoo! (up $0.85 to $29.97, Charts) all managing gains.

Monday brought a number of merger announcements, but the news was countered by new worries about subprime mortgage lenders.

New Century Financial (Charts) said its lenders have cut off its financing, in the latest blow to the mortgage lender to people with less than top credit. The New York Stock Exchange delayed opening trading for the stock and later announced that it was considering suspending trading.

In addition, Countrywide Financial (down $1.21 to $34.89, Charts) said it expects some short-term earnings volatility due to events in the subprime mortgage lending market. Shares slumped about 3 percent.

Other financial companies exposed to subprime mortgage lending slumped as well. Accredited Home Lending (down $3.81 to $11.97, Charts) lost 21 percent, Fremont General (down $1.35 to $6.68, Charts) lost 13 percent and Novastar Financial (down $0.68 to $4.56, Charts) lost 12 percent.

Among the deals announced: Schering Plough (down $0.14 to $23.71, Charts) is buying Akzo Nobel's drug unit for $14.4 billion in cash.

Dollar General (up $4.38 to $21.16, Charts) has agreed to be taken private by Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co. in a $7.3 billion cash and debt deal.

UnitedHealth Group (down $0.04 to $52.96, Charts) said it was buying Sierra Health Services for $2.6 billion in cash.

In addition, Ford Motor (up $0.02 to $7.95, Charts) said it was selling its luxury Aston Martin line for $925 million.

Market breadth was positive. On the New York Stock Exchange, advancers beat decliners eight to seven on volume of 900 million shares. On the Nasdaq, winners barely topped losers as 1 billion shares traded hands.

U.S. light crude oil for April delivery fell 90 cents to $59.15 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

COMEX gold for April delivery fell $1.50 to $650.50 an ounce.

Treasury prices rose, lowering the yield on the 10-year note to 4.55 percent from 4.58 percent late Friday. Treasury prices and yields move in opposite directions.


Find this article at:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/12/mark...ion=2007031214
Job growth is great

http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/08/news...ion=2007030809

Quote:

Jobless claims below expectations
328,000 filed first-time jobless claims, slightly better than 330,000 expected.
March 8 2007: 9:04 AM EST

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- The number of U.S. workers claiming first-time jobless benefits fell 10,000 to a seasonally adjusted 328,000 last week, slightly lower than Wall Street expectations, a government report showed.

But the four-week moving average for initial claims, a better look at the underlying trend, rose to 339,000, which is the highest since the week of Oct. 29, 2005, when it was also 339,000.

There were no special factors, such as weather, affecting the data last week, the U.S. Labor Department said.

Analysts polled by Reuters had predicted initial claims would drop to 330,000 in the week ended March 3, from the prior week's unrevised 338,000.

The number of workers filing for continuing claims fell 98,000 in the week ended Feb. 24 to 2.55 million, following a 118,000 jump the prior week.

Analysts polled by Reuters had predicted this number would decline to 2.59 million.

The insured unemployment rate was 1.9 percent in the week ended Feb. 24, down from 2.0 percent the prior week.
Quote:

Found! 1 million jobs
Government revisions to payrolls are likely to show job growth has been much stronger than first thought.
By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer
February 5 2007: 2:49 PM EST

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The question of why the economy hasn't added more jobs since the 2001 recession ended may get this answer Friday morning: It probably did.

The government's January employment report is due before U.S. financial markets open Friday, and economists are forecasting 150,000 new jobs were created last month, down a bit from 167,000 in December. The unemployment rate is pegged to hold steady at 4.5 percent.

But the numbers will also include the Labor Department's so-called benchmark revisions to job numbers for April 2005 through March 2006. While it's gotten very little attention, the department's Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) estimated last October that the revisions will add about 810,000 jobs to its count of U.S. payrolls for that 12-month period.

In addition, the BLS will make changes to its estimates for April 2006 through December 2006, and some economists say several hundred thousand additional jobs may be counted for that period, meaning the overall job gain could top 1 million. Wachovia senior economist Mark Vitner estimates a total net gain of 1.2 million from all the revisions.

Changes of that magnitude would obviously dwarf the January numbers, which will nevertheless get most of the attention on Wall Street.

The benchmark revision is the biggest going back to the 1970s, and some economists say it shows not only that the economy is doing much better than previously believed, but that the way the Labor Department calculates those on the job needs significant revisions.

If the revision for the 12 -months ending in March 2006 does produce the now expected upward revision of 810,000, that will mean that job growth in the period was about 40 percent stronger than the government's previous estimates.

"It looks as if the monthly numbers grossly undercounted the true number of jobs created," said Bernard Baumohl, managing director of the Economic Outlook Group, a Princeton, N.J. research firm.

It's not that the benchmark always revises the number of workers higher. In fact in four of the previous five revisions, the benchmark revision actually lowered the previous payroll count.

The benchmark revision is made using much harder information than used to compile the monthly report, which is based upon a survey of employers across the nation. The BLS economists will now be able to look at things such as unemployment taxes paid by employers for the April 2005 through March 2006 period.

That includes the period after Hurricane Katrina, when government number crunchers had trouble contacting employers in the Gulf Coast region. It tried to make allowances for those difficulties, but part of the large revision could be due to the peculiar problems associated with those events.

There have been other estimates that showed much stronger job growth than the BLS employer survey. A survey of households, also conducted by the BLS and used to calculate the unemployment rate, showed a 3.1 million gain in jobs for the 12 months ending in March 2006, compared to the 2 million job gain recorded in the department's payroll survey of employers.

Economists widely consider the payroll survey to be significantly more accurate of the two readings.

"The BLS says that the payroll estimate has a margin of error of 150,000 jobs, while the household survey is plus or minus 300,000 jobs," he said. "So when you see a gain of 150,000 in the payroll number, it could be zero, or 300,000. It's tough to draw any conclusions about the state of the economy from that."

Vitner said that part of the problem is that the survey is very accurate when compared to the overall number of jobs it's counting, which was 136.2 million in December. But all the attention is given to the much smaller net change in jobs.

Both agree that the BLS should be given more resources to refine and improve the accuracy of the payroll estimates.

"I know virtually all the agencies in Labor and Commerce have been pleading for more money. I can't quantify what they need," said Baumohl. "But for business managers it's problematic to make decisions based on their best guess on what's going on in the economy."
Plenty of jobs for everyone if you're willing to work for it.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/01/04/news...ion=2007010416

Quote:

Skilled worker shortage hurts U.S.
Employers would be hiring more if they could just find the skilled workers they need.
By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer
January 5 2007: 2:56 PM EST

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The biggest problem with job growth right now isn't too few new jobs. It's too few skilled workers.

The Labor Department's December employment report Friday showed stronger than expected job and wage growth, with a net gain of 167,000 jobs in the month, and average hourly wages up 4.2 percent from a year ago. But even in this report, the pace of job gains was showing signs of slowing down.

The fourth quarter gain was below the third quarter and 2006 saw 143,000 fewer jobs added to payrolls than in 2005, or almost a month's worth of hiring. And that's a comparison to a year in which hurricanes Katrina and Rita took a bite out of jobs.

In addition, one survey earlier in the week from employment service ADP released Wednesday showed U.S. private sector employment shrank in December, the first decline in 3-1/2 years.

But many economists and labor market experts say that job growth and the economy overall would be significantly stronger if employers could find the skilled workers they really need.

"I'm hearing across the board, across industries, companies indicating they can't exploit market opportunity because they can't find people with the right skills," said Jeff Summer, an executive at Deloitte Consulting who leads the firm's management practice. He said that there's virtually no long-term unemployment for skilled workers.

"It's down to the nub already," he said. "Supply and demand is completely out of whack."

Some experts say part of the blame for the slowdown in the economy in last year's second half can be laid on labor constraints - companies couldn't expand as fast as they wanted due to a lack of workers with the right skills.

Anthony Chan, chief economist for JPMorgan Private Client Services, said employers are constantly citing the inability to find the workers they need as one of their top problems, if not their biggest worry.

Businesses "feel there's real [unmet] demand out there," he said, adding that "economic growth would be faster" if there wasn't this tight supply of workers.

The unemployment rate in December stayed at 4.5 percent. But the rate for college-educated workers was just 1.9 percent in December, near the rate for that group in 1998 and 1999, when the economy was white-hot. The lowest rate for college grads on record was 1.5 percent in three months during 2000.

Mark Vitner, chief economist for Wachovia, said another sign of the tight labor market is the growing number of job openings being reported by the Labor Department in a separate report, even as hiring posts modest gains.

The most recent report shows 4.2 million job openings in October, up 8.8 percent from a year earlier, while hirings rose just 1.5 percent. Meanwhile, the number of workers quitting, retiring, getting fired or laid-off grew only 0.6 percent.

"With this level of unemployment, the only way they can find the workers they need is to hire them away from someone else, hire them from someplace else, or hire someone without the necessary skills," said Vitner. "All these things cut into productivity growth."

The latest tally of announced job cuts by outplacement firm Challenger, Gray & Christmas showed a 22 percent drop from 2005 to the lowest in six years, even as the auto industry slashed thousands of hourly workers, mostly due to the problems at General Motors (Charts) and Ford Motor (Charts).

Outside the auto industry, most employers are reluctant to cut staff due to the tight supply of workers, said John Challenger, the firm's CEO. "Companies are holding onto their people. They're focusing on retention programs. Even if they're in a little slower period, they worry about being able to find the people they need if they see the business pickup."

Still, even with the employment numbers showing a tight supply, some of those college-educated job seekers say they're not seeing the supply-demand equation tip in their favor yet.

Steven Koch said he spent 25 years at IBM (Charts), the last five as a procurement engineer, in charge of buying parts to go into computers. But after Chinese computer company Lenovo bought the IBM personal computer division, his job was relocated to North Carolina from New York and he decided not to follow. He's been without a job since May, despite his masters in computer science.

"I've applied to about 150 companies within 70 miles of where we live. The opportunities are not there," said Koch. "There were about six of us from Lenovo who decided not to go to North Carolina. Not one of us has found a job in the field with a comparable salary. One decided to sell cars."

Challenger said despite the tight market, his figures show job search times are about the same as they were a couple of years ago, when the number of unemployed college-educated job seekers was almost 50 percent higher than it is today.

Part of that may be because of increased competition from job applicants who already have a job. A recent survey by the Society for Human Resource Management found three-quarters of those with jobs said they were looking for a job. But Challenger said employers are being very cautious about adding staff in the current tight market, much more cautious than in the late 1990s.

"Companies are more measured. They're looking closely at who they hire," he said.

Koch said that was his experience as well. He said several times he's gone on job interviews and been told he was a strong candidate, only to later be told the company decided not to fill the position.

"One company said, 'Even though you're the top candidate, you're not exactly what they were looking for'," he said. He suspects that what many companies are looking for is younger skilled workers with lower salary demands.

But Challenger said the inability to hire, either due to reluctance or a tight labor market, is one factor constraining economic growth.

"When the economy hits some natural barriers, it slows it down, and one of those barriers is when the pool of workers begins to dry up," he said. "The lifeblood of the economy today is skilled workers."

And most experts agreed the shortage of skilled workers is likely to persist longer than it did in the late 1990s. That earlier tightness was fed by dot.com companies burning through investors' cash to hire people. The latest round of hiring is being driven by stronger corporate balance sheets, and as more retiring Baby Boomers start leaving the work force.

Deloitte's Summer said that the current tightness will be a problem for business at least into the next decade, when demographic trends should start to help.

"We start to see some relief in 2012, but we'll probably be dealing with this through 2015, even 2020," he said. "Companies that are looking at this are saying, 'We have to re-invent what we're doing here.' Just paying people more won't be the answer. They really need to be treating the talent market as a customer market more than they ever have before."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/0...nds/index.html

Quote:

CNN.com

Job trends for the new year
By Matt Ferguson
CEO, CareerBuilder.com

Is finding a new job on your list of New Year's resolutions? The market may be in your favor.

Recent reports from the U.S. Labor Department indicate that while the expansion of the U.S. economy is slowing, it is doing so at a reasonable pace, and inflation has steadied.

A moderated, yet stable, job market is expected to carry over into 2007 with gains that will remain strong enough to keep the unemployment rate in check.

University of Michigan economists predict the United States will create 1.5 million jobs in the next 12 months.

According to CareerBuilder.com's annual job forecast, 40 percent of hiring managers and human resource professionals operating in the private sectorexternal link report they will increase their number of full-time, permanent employees in 2007, compared to 2006. Eight percent expect to decrease headcount while 40 percent expect no change. Twelve percent are unsure.

Employers are expected to become more competitive in their recruitment and retention efforts in the New Year as the pool of skilled labor shrinks and productivity growth plateaus. Forty percent of employers report they currently have job openings for which they can't find qualified candidates.

This bodes well for workers who are likely to benefit from more generous job offers, more promotions, more flexible work cultures and other major trends identified for 2007:
No. 1: Bigger Paychecks

To motivate top performers to join or stay with their organizations, employers plan to offer better compensation packages.

Eighty-one percent of employers report their companies will increase salaries for existing employees. Sixty-five percent will raise compensation levels by 3 percent or more while nearly one-in-five will raise compensation levels by 5 percent or more.

Nearly half of employers (49 percent) expect to increase salaries on initial offers to new employees. Thirty-five percent will raise compensation levels by 3 percent or more while 17 percent will raise compensation levels by 5 percent or more.
No. 2: Diversity Recruitment -- Hispanics Workers in Demand

Understanding the positive influence workforce diversityexternal link has on overall business performance, employers remain committed to expanding the demographics of their staffs.

With the Hispanic population accounting for half of U.S. population growth since 2000, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, and buying power growing 8 percent annually, one-in-ten employers report they will be targeting Hispanic job candidates most aggressively of all diverse segments.

Nine percent plan to step up diversity recruiting for African American job candidates while 8 percent will target female job candidates. Half of employers recruiting bilingualexternal link employees say English/Spanish-speaking candidates are most in demand in their organizations.
No. 3: More Flexible Work Arrangements

Work/life balance is a major buzzword among U.S. employers as employees struggle to balance heavy workloads and long hours with personal commitments.

Nineteen percent of employers say they are very or extremely willing to provide more flexible work arrangements for employees such as job sharing and alternate schedules. Thirty-one percent are fairly willing.
No. 4: Rehiring Retirees

Employers continue to express concern over the loss of intellectual capital as Baby Boomers retire and smaller generations of replacement workers fall short of labor quotas.

One-in-five employers plan to rehire retirees from other companies or provide incentives for workers approaching retirement age to stay on with the company longer.
No. 5: More Promotions

With the perceived lack of upper mobility within an organization being a major driver for employee turnover, employers are carving out clearer career paths.

Thirty-five percent of employers plan to provide more promotions and career advancement opportunities to their existing staff in the New Year.
No. 6: Better Training

In light of the shortage of skilled workers within their own industries, the vast majority of employers -- 86 percent -- report they are willing to recruit workers who don't have experience in their particular industry or field, but have transferable skills.

Seventy-eight percent report they are willing to recruit workers who don't have experience in their particular industry or field and provide training/certifications needed.
No. 7: Hiring Overseas

Companies continue to drive growth by entering or strengthening their presence in global markets. Thirteen percent of employers report they will expand operations and hire employees in other countries in 2007. Nine percent are considering it.

With China'sexternal link economy expanding at 10 percent annually and India'sexternal link at 8 percent, these two countries are particularly attractive to U.S. companies. Twenty-three percent of employers recruiting overseas report they will hire the most workers in China and 22 percent will hire the most in India.

Survey Methodology

This survey was conducted online by Harris Interactive on behalf of CareerBuilder.com among 2,627 hiring managers and human resource professionals (employed full-time; not self employed; with at least significant involvement in hiring decisions), ages 18 and over within the United States between November 17 and December 11, 2006.

Figures for age, sex, race/ethnicity, education, region and household income were weighted where necessary to bring them into line with their actual proportions in the population. Propensity score weighting was also used to adjust for respondents' propensity to be online.

With a pure probability sample of 2,627, one could say with a ninety-five percent probability that the overall results have a sampling error of 2 percentage points. Sampling error for data from sub-samples is higher and varies. However that does not take other sources of error into account.

This online survey is not based on a probability sample and therefore no theoretical sampling error can be calculated.

Matt Ferguson is CEO of CareerBuilder.com. He is an expert in recruitment trends and tactics, job seeker behavior and workplace issues.
I'm sorry if my post is too short but I ran out of time.

host 03-12-2007 11:35 AM

[QUOTE=aceventura3][QUOTE=host]
Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
ace....your WSJ article is wrapped around the same conflict of interest as this
is:





People who invest in mortgage backed bonds don't invest in subprime lenders. Often when a subprime lender packages and sells the loans they originate, they either guarnatee or buy insurance against defaults. The subprime loans are often packaged with prime loans, dispersing the risk to the mortgage backed security investor. No matter how you slice it the mortgage backed securities are backed up by real-estate. I believe mortgage backed securities are a relatively safe investment.

Saying the market is rigged for the reason stated assumes people investing billions of dollars are fools.




My article is "happy talk" or bullshit, and yours is o.k. since its from the New York Times. This is how you want to have a serious discussion?

ace....the imploding stock prices, and the foreclosures are the "facts". This thread is one week old....I'll be here ace...and I'll share what I am doing, in reaction to what I think is happening. The mortgage backed securities will crash in value, and there is little or no demand for them now...in subprime, or in "Alt-A" applicant credit rating categories.

The home equity and the pension account balances of Americans who can least afford to lose, are washing out first, ace.....the folks who were in a position to buy the MSB's won't feel the pain as soon as retail realtors, home construction and building materials related workers, and back office mortgage underwriting staff, and the J6P's who walk away or are foreclosed out of their over valued homes.

I gave you an example of Bear Stearns' criminally conflicting position and the propaganda that they broadcast. Fitch, Moodys, and S&P rating houses all have similar conflicts. I truly have spelled it out for you, ace....we just went through a stock market driven decline, seven short years ago. This time it's starting with real estate financing....but it's no different this time, in the early stages...but it will be a much deeper decline, and it will last much, much longer. You can bet on it, ace....I am...and so far....so good...

aceventura3 03-12-2007 11:50 AM

[QUOTE=host][QUOTE=aceventura3]
Quote:

Originally Posted by host
ace....the imploding stock prices, and the foreclosures are the "facts".

I say the stocks were overvalued due to speculation, and that the stocks are going back to normal valuations. Some companies are going out of business and out of the market, but this is an everyday occurance in financial markets. Forclosures rates are going to increase, then decrease. Bankruptcies will increase then decrease. Credit card default rates will increase, then decrease. Car reposessions will increase, then decrease, etc, etc, etc etc. Nothing new, nothing to get alarmed about at this point in time.

Quote:

This thread is one week old....I'll be here ace...and I'll share what I am doing, in reaction to what I think is happening. The mortgage backed securities will crash in value, and there is little or no demand for them now...in subprime, or in "Alt-A" applicant credit rating categories.

The home equity and the pension account balances of Americans who can least afford to lose, are washing out first, ace.....the folks who were in a position to buy the MSB's won't feel the pain as soon as retail realtors, home construction and building materials related workers, and back office mortgage underwriting staff, and the J6P's who walk away or are foreclosed out of their over valued homes.

I gave you an example of Bear Stearns' criminally conflicting position and the propaganda that they broadcast. Fitch, Moodys, and S&P rating houses all have similar conflicts. I truly have spelled it out for you, ace....we just went through a stock market driven decline, seven short years ago. This time it's starting with real estate financing....but it's no different this time, in the early stages...but it will be a much deeper decline, and it will last much, much longer. You can bet on it, ace....I am...and so far....so good...
Here is some stuff on mortgagebacked securities. Guess what many have government guarantees. I doubt the market is going to crash.

Quote:

What are GNMA funds good for? Are they suitable for the bond portion of the money you're saving for retirement?

-- Miriam Hill

Miriam,

GNMA funds are a good option for investors who are comfortable with something a little bit riskier than a Treasury bond fund, but less risky than a corporate bond fund. Over the long haul, GNMA and other mortgage-backed securities funds have outperformed Treasury and other government bond funds by an average of two-thirds of a percentage point a year.

However mortgage-backed funds don't act like regular bond funds, and it's harder to understand why they do what they do. Also, while pure Treasury funds pay income that is tax deductible at the state level, GNMA income, like corporate bond income, is fully taxable.

GNMA stands for the Government National Mortgage Association, known as Ginnie Mae. It's the federal agency that buys up mortgage loans from banks and turns them into mortgage-backed securities. As an investor in mortgage-backed securities, you become the mortgage lender. Ginnie Mae adds a guarantee to make timely interest and principal payments, even if the homeowner pays late.

The first thing you should know about mortgage-backed securities funds is that there are three types.

# Ginnie Mae funds invest primarily (at least two-thirds) in Ginnie Mae mortgage-backed securities. The balance can be pretty much anything, although many funds restrict themselves to Treasury and federal agency securities.

# General mortgage funds invest primarily in mortgage-backed securities with some sort of federal guarantee, a category that includes not only Ginnie Mae securities, but also securities packaged by Fannie Mae (FNM:NYSE - news) and Freddie Mac (FRE:NYSE - news).

(Note that Fannie and Freddie, along with the Federal Home Loan Bank and the Federal Farm Credit Bank, among others, also issue what's called federal agency debt. These are bonds rather than mortgage-backed securities, and they are a staple of government funds and some Treasury funds.)

Fannie and Freddie mortgage-backed securities are considered slightly riskier than Ginnie Mae's because while Ginnie is a government agency, Fannie and Freddie are private, government-sponsored enterprises. "Congress may be less willing to rescue a financially strapped GSE," University of Missouri professors Charles Corrado and Bradford Jordan write in their forthcoming textbook, Fundamentals of Investments. As with Ginnie Mae funds, the rest of a general mortgage fund can be just about anything.

# Finally, there are adjustable-rate mortgage funds, but they haven't really caught on. At the end of August, according to Lipper, there was just $3.5 billion in so-called ARM funds, compared to $41.1 billion in Ginnie Mae funds and $11.6 billion in general mortgage funds.

The key point here is that if you are looking to eke out a bit more yield and return than a Treasury or government fund, but without adding much credit risk, it's important to find out whether a GNMA or general mortgage fund makes a practice of holding anything but federally guaranteed mortgage-backed securities and Treasury securities. Some funds hold private mortgage-backed securities, asset-backed securities and corporate bonds. They can goose a fund's return, but the additional credit risk can also hurt it in an economic downturn.
Prepayment Factor

So why does a mortgage fund, even one whose balance is entirely in Treasury securities, act differently than a regular bond fund? As you know, if you have a mortgage you can prepay it at any time, and are more likely to do so if interest rates fall. Likewise if interest rates rise, you would be less likely to prepay.

Viewed from the perspective of an investor in mortgage-backed securities, that is an option retained by the issuer. As an investor in mortgage-backed securities, you have effectively sold an option in exchange for a higher yield. Your main risk is that interest rates will decline and the rate at which homeowners are prepaying their mortgages will go up, and you will have to reinvest at lower yields. This chart shows how Ginnie Mae and mortgage funds underperformed intermediate Treasury funds during last year's great bull market in bonds.

Mortgages vs. Treasuries
Median total return for each mutual fund category, retail funds only

Source: Lipper

But rising interest rates can also hurt the mortgage-backed investor, as they have this year. Mortgage-backed securities are valued based on an assumption about the rate at which homeowners will prepay. It's bad if they prepay more quickly than expected, but it's also bad if they prepay more slowly, since that diminishes the rate of reinvestment.

"Mortgage funds generally do best in periods with relatively stable interest rates," says Casey Colton, manager of American Century GNMA.

The share prices of mortgage funds normally fluctuate less than those of standard government bond funds, but the dividends fluctuate more as prepayment speeds change, Colton says.

If you are comfortable with these conditions and complexities, then mortgage funds are a suitable investment for your portfolio's bond allocation, particularly if you are uncomfortable with anything that doesn't carry a federal guarantee.

As for the tax issue, if you are choosing between a mortgage fund and a pure Treasury fund, you can figure out whether a mortgage fund's yield is high enough to compensate you for the state tax by multiplying it by 1 minus your state tax rate to calculate the aftertax yield. If you're comparing a mortgage fund to a fund that includes federal agency debt, the agency portion will be taxable at the state level too.
http://www.thestreet.com/funds/bondforum/787157.html

host 03-14-2007 07:33 AM

[QUOTE=aceventura3][QUOTE=host]
Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I say the stocks were overvalued due to speculation, and that the stocks are going back to normal valuations. Some companies are going out of business and out of the market, but this is an everyday occurance in financial markets. Forclosures rates are going to increase, then decrease. Bankruptcies will increase then decrease. Credit card default rates will increase, then decrease. Car reposessions will increase, then decrease, etc, etc, etc etc. Nothing new, nothing to get alarmed about at this point in time.



Here is some stuff on mortgagebacked securities. Guess what many have government guarantees. I doubt the market is going to crash.



http://www.thestreet.com/funds/bondforum/787157.html

Looks like at least half of mortgages don't have "government guarantees, ace:
Quote:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...LXo&refer=home
Bernanke Says Fannie, Freddie Need to Reduce Assets (Update4)

By James Tyson

March 6 (Bloomberg) -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the largest sources of money for U.S. home loans, should sell most of their $1.4 trillion in assets to refocus on homeownership among low-income Americans, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke said. .....

..... Bernanke cited data from regulators showing that less than 30 percent of the government-chartered companies' mortgage assets, or about $420 billion, promotes affordable housing.

Congress should anchor the ``portfolios to a clear public mission'' and ``require Fannie and Freddie to focus their portfolios almost exclusively on mortgages and mortgage-backed securities that support affordable housing,'' said Bernanke, who reiterated many of the Fed's views and research on the firms since 2003. ......

..... No Recommendation

Unlike former Fed chairman Alan Greenspan, Bernanke didn't specify an optimal smaller size for the mortgage holdings. Greenspan in 2005 said each of the companies' portfolios should be cut to as little as $100 billion.

The mortgage holdings constitute one of the two biggest businesses for Washington-based Fannie Mae and McLean, Virginia- base Freddie Mac, which own or guarantee about 40 percent of the $10.5 trillion residential mortgage market. Fannie Mae's assets generated 43 percent of profits in 2004. Freddie Mac doesn't release such data. .......
"Affordable" housing???....from a GSE ("the Fed") "shill" who was part of "the Fed" when it lowered interest rates to one percent and provided all of the liquidity that launched housing prices into the stratosphere???

Incoherent, ace.....just as the "talk" that, without unemployment even rising yet....from the effects of this "mess".....everything "will be fine"......

tick....tick.....tick....one state "down".....49 to go.....?
Quote:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...314018/0/COL10
Michigan is alone in recession, business index finds

March 14, 2007

BY ALEJANDRO BODIPO-MEMBA

FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER

The slashing of auto industry jobs by the thousands, a weakening housing market and slower national growth have combined to push Michigan into a “one-state recession,” according to the Michigan Business Activity Index.

The index fell 1 point in January to 101. It matches the recent low level set in November and is down 3% from a year ago.

Produced by Comerica Bank and used since 1957, the MBAI represent 10 separate measures of economic activity across Michigan. It is seasonally adjusted and corrected for inflation.

“Our index confirms that Michigan remains stuck in a one-state recession,” said Dana Johnson, chief economist for the bank. “The state economy is not likely to make much headway anytime soon given the sizable cuts in jobs at Ford and Chrysler, the ongoing steep declines in residential building permits, and the backdrop of sluggish national growth.”
and the "news" come on a day when GM announces a quarterly profit:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ne...nG=Search+News

....but what's this ???:
Quote:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...Xxs&refer=home
Senate Weighs Aid to 2.2 Million Subprime Borrowers (Update4)

By James Tyson

March 13 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. lawmakers will have to consider providing aid to about 2.2 million subprime mortgage borrowers who are at risk of defaulting and losing their homes, Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd said today.

``The impact of losing 2.2 million homes I suspect will be in a lot of areas of our cities and towns that are already pretty hard hit, so we clearly want to look at that and legislate,'' Dodd, a Democrat from Connecticut, told reporters in Washington after a speech to the National League of Cities.

Foreclosures involving homeowners who took out subprime loans from 1998 until 2006 could cost $164 billion, Dodd said, citing a December study by the Center for Responsible Lending in Durham, North Carolina. The government needs to provide at-risk homeowners ``forbearance or something like that to give them a chance to work through and get a new financial instrument here that they can manage financially better,'' Dodd said.

Delinquencies among subprime mortgage borrowers hit a four- year high in the fourth quarter, the Washington-based Mortgage Bankers Association said today. The trade group said 13.33 percent of subprime borrowers were behind on payments in the quarter, the highest rate since the third quarter of 2002.

More than two dozen mortgage lenders have gone bankrupt, closed operations or sought buyers since the beginning of last year as the effect of looser lending standards, slowing home- price gains, and less wage growth left banks holding bad loans.

Looking to Help

Congress ``may need to do something much more quickly to provide some protection or you could end up with a lot of poverty and blight,'' Dodd said. Federal aid of a few billion dollars ``may be a lot less costly'' than $164 billion in lost wealth, he said.

Mortgage defaults during the next two years may rise to $225 billion, with about $170 billion tied to subprime loans, according to a report yesterday by analyst at Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. led by Srinivas Modukuri. Subprime borrowers are those with poor or limited credit backgrounds or high debt.

Dodd didn't specify the channel through which federal aid would be offered. ``I don't want to settle on the specifics of it, but clearly we are looking at what we can do to help out.''

Any formal legislation would have to be approved by Dodd's committee, then passed by both the full Senate and the House of Representatives before being signed into law by the president.

Costly Solution

Federal aid ``would come at a cost,'' said Douglas Duncan, chief economist at the Mortgage Bankers Association. ``It has to be paid for and the question is would the 34 percent of homeowners who have no mortgage be willing to pay taxes to support the bailout of people who traditionally have not managed credit well?''

Duncan expressed doubt that 2.2 million subprime mortgage borrowers will lose their homes, noting that the association lists only 300,000 such borrowers as being in foreclosure now.
click here to read the rest....   click to show 


``I am a strong advocate of subprime lending,'' Dodd said. ``I don't want that word to become a pejorative as junk bonds did.''

While not constituting a drag on the economy, defaults may increase to $300 billion if home prices fall and borrowers forgo refinancing because of stricter lending standards, Lehman said.

To contact the reporter on this story: James Tyson in Washington at jtyson@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: March 13, 2007 18:05 EDT
ace....these borrowers in distress are feeling the effects of a halt and a slight reversal, compared to what is coming, in the increasing valuations of the homes that they purchased with "no money down", "time bomb", teaser rate subprime, initially "interest only" loans.

Quote:

http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister...le_1618642.php
Wednesday, March 14, 2007
Behind the subprime crisis
Risks catch up with lenders when loans are worth more than properties and investors pull financial backing.
By JOHN GITTELSOHN and MATHEW PADILLA
The Orange County Register

Ameriquest Mortgage. ECC Capital. Fremont General Corp. Resmae Mortgage. New Century Financial Corp.

The casualty list of Orange County subprime lenders grows.

What's behind this crisis?

Easy money.....

.......Aggressive lenders

It was a deal hard to refuse: No-money-down mortgages without proof of income, where borrowers qualified at the discounted teaser interest rate. Only problem: Payments doubled or tripled in year three of 30-year plans.

Bill Spitalnick spent seven years reviewing appraisals for subprime loans, first at Ameriquest in Orange and then at Fremont Investment & Loan in Anaheim. Last year, he began to see more cases where the loans exceeded the home's values.

"The main problem was 100 percent financing and declining values," said Spitalnick of a situation that put the lender at great risk.........
Even if Tommy Dodd made foreclosure illegal, this is a system predicated on reliably increasing property values....price stagnation still removes all speculative liquidity from the housing market....the uncertainty stays, and none of this looks likes the things that make for a "healthy economy" as an atmosphere for 2008 candidates to "run in", especially for republican candidates....

....and keep on eye on the stock market indices in Japan, Hong Kong, Korea, China, and the in the US....you ain't seen nothin' yet:
http://finance.yahoo.com/intlindices?e=americas

Quote:

http://finance.yahoo.com/intlindices?e=asia

Today, Wed, Mar 14, 2007
• ^N225 FOREX-Yen keeps most gains as investors unwind riskat Reuters (Wed 6:39am)
• ^N225 U.S. subprime fears spark renewed slide in global stocksReuters (Wed 5:20am)
Tue, Mar 13, 2007
• ^HSI Asian shares slump on U.S. mortgage woesReuters (Tue 11:17pm)

aceventura3 03-14-2007 08:55 AM

I read this morning in IBD that new forclosures as a percentage of total mortgages are at an all time high - 0.54%. That is about 1 in 200 homes with mortgages. Mortgage deliquency rates are at 4.5%, highest in about 4 years. Adjustable subprime loan deliquency rates are at 14.4%, again the highest in 4 years. Many think things will get worse before getting better. I think panic is going through the market. I will sit on the sidelines until the dust settles.

The irony is that once this all settles, many hard-working middle class and poor will not be able to buy homes. Small mortgage companies and banks will have to operate in an environment with increased regulation, making them less competetive with the big banks. The market will be less competetive and consumers will pay higher fees and higher interest rates. Big banks, big corporations, and the rich will win. If you think that is a good thing - keep encouraging panic.

host 03-14-2007 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
I read this morning in IBD that new forclosures as a percentage of total mortgages are at an all time high - 0.54%. That is about 1 in 200 homes with mortgages. Mortgage deliquency rates are at 4.5%, highest in about 4 years. Adjustable subprime loan deliquency rates are at 14.4%, again the highest in 4 years. Many think things will get worse before getting better. I think panic is going through the market. I will sit on the sidelines until the dust settles.

The irony is that once this all settles, many hard-working middle class and poor will not be able to buy homes. Small mortgage companies and banks will have to operate in an environment with increased regulation, making them less competetive with the big banks. The market will be less competetive and consumers will pay higher fees and higher interest rates. Big banks, big corporations, and the rich will win. <b>If you think that is a good thing - keep encouraging panic.</b>

....should this thread be banned.....(or at least my posts....?) your post had the same effect on me as the foxnews "piece" that I posted earlier here....the writer titled it <a href="http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/0-0&fp=45f8d7d3fd5c05ff&ei=Fir4Rf__Lbn6sAHmhqihAQ&url=http%3A//www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C257002%2C00.html&cid=0">"Two Words Mr. Greenspan: Shut Up"</a>

....are you accusing me of a "not supporting the troops", "syndrome", ace....
Are those of us who see something "not right".....extraordinary....about an "injection" of $4.7 trillion into a "pool" of total outstanding mortgage debt, in just six years, that propels the total from less than $6 trillion in 2001, to the current $10.5 trillion, now....really wrong to call it as we see it?

...to "call it" when, suddenly, just since december, 36 of the top 100 subprime lenders, go under, get absorbed at near firesale prices and then become a toxic drain on their new owners, or simply cease to operate.....a start of a decline to an economic depression....

...am I really the problem, ace....or is the problem a series of aggressive Fed and US government interference in the direction of markets.....markets that you seem to see as relatively "free and unfettered"...., that is as long as the government interferes to prop them up, and inject liquidity and policies that make them only go up? It started in the current cycle with the Fed arranging a bailout for imploded hedge fund, LTCM in 1998, and that triggered the perception of the Greenspan "put", and that fueled the tech stock bubble that was capped off by a March , 2000 Nasdaq index high of 5138, followed, less than three years later, by a low in the same index of 1107, followed by the Fed lowering the overnight, interbank lending rate to one percent, triggering a speculative bubble in real estate....flamed by the low interest rate and ever more "relaxed" lending standards, and an actual bias by the Fed and the CEO of Freddie Mac....to lend at 100 percent in an environment where home valuations are increasing at 5 to 10 percent annually....lending with an official nod that was the driving force....for too long, in the 5 to 10 percent annual average appreciation....

No, ace....I'm not "talking down" the economy or the markets, anymore than folks who demand an end to the lying, self-destructive folly that is the US involvement militarily in Iraq, is "failing to support the troops". I didn't put the troops there or keep them for 4 years, after "fixing the intelligence to match the policy" to manipulate the passage of an Oct. 2002 congressional resolution that gave the executive branch the power to "send in the troops" to stop the "WMD programs" of a "friend of al-Qaeda" who was a "menace to his region",and to the United States....and he's developing missiles and nukes and can we wait until we see a mushroom cloud......

....No ace....I'm doing the same thing that I've done here since Sept., 2004, calling "it" as I see it.....in real time.....with a track record of accurate prediction that is strong enough for me to mention it....

....I've given you stock tips that, if followed, would have brought anybody who reacted to them, some quick market profits, ace....and If I influence even one or two readers to consider what I describe is happening to our economy, housing valuations, and credit availability, I'll feel some satisfaction.

In your last post, you've thrown a "straw man" argument at my, ace, but you also conceed, which you didn't, earlier in this thread, that there is cause for concern about an economy that you claimed was driven up by "tax cuts". I claimed that it was driven by deficit building federal borrowing and home owner mortgage equity extraction (MEW) and spending the extracted funds.

If the economy has the sound fundamentals and robustness that you have claimed in this thread, and in a number of others, why accuse me of anything negative by claiming that I'm "talking 'er down". Why should you even be concerned enough to post that last sentence in your preceding post, if nothing that I've posted concern about, will negatively affect your business as usual, "its' a great economy", opinion?

.....oh....and ace....they're being made to swallow their own toxic sludge....just a taste....nothing near the probable $2 trillion in MSB's foisted on "marks" and "bag holders", such as the "high returns" seeking managers of the pension funds of too many ordinary Americans.....

...and they'll drown on their most recent accumulation of subprime and Alt-A mortgage loans, but the American public....concentrated in home owners and folks with pension assets, will swallow the trillions that they already "packaged" and sold via BSC and LEH....and they won't write any new "sludge" loans, because they don't like the taste, and liquidity dries up....and down, down, down, we go....There was "panic" in October 1929, when the DOW index dropped from the 393 high, just the month before, to below 200, before rebounding for a year or more....to the upper 200's. It was quiet on July 8, 1932, when the DOW traded at the lowest level that it has since then....41 that day. "Panic" isn't what brings down the markets, fundamentals eventually do that:
Quote:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...BA45696D47C%7D
National City to keep $1.6 bln of loans that were for sale

By Chad Clinton
Last Update: 8:08 AM ET Mar 14, 2007

National City Corp. (NCC :
National City Corporation
News , chart , profile , more
Last: 35.36-0.39-1.09%
1:19pm 03/14/2007

Sponsored by:
NCC35.36, -0.39, -1.1% ) said Wednesday that its remaining $1.6 billion of non-comforming loans held for sale <b>are currently not salable at what management considers an acceptable price</b> due to "adverse market conditions."
As a result, the Cleveland financial-services company <h3>plans to retain the loans and transfer them back into their portfolio this month.</h3>
....and NCC is a shortsell stock tip ace....a long term one....and so are BSC and LEH, and GS, and probably 90 percent of everything else listed on the NYSE and on the NAZ....unless Sen. Tom Dodd and Ben Bernanke can rescue us....OHHHH!! THE HUMANITY !!

The_Jazz 03-14-2007 09:48 AM

How is it that the two of you can decide to agree and then fight about that?

Ace: there's no problem
Host: yes there is
Ace: well based on this new information, there might be a problem but we'll have to wait and see. You may be part of the problem, btw.
Host: thanks for acknowledging the validity of part of my arguement. WMD! Al Qaeda!

Seriously, you two are like an old married couple.

host 03-14-2007 09:52 AM

chuckle...."the Bickersons...."

aceventura3 03-14-2007 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz
How is it that the two of you can decide to agree and then fight about that?

Ace: there's no problem
Host: yes there is
Ace: well based on this new information, there might be a problem but we'll have to wait and see. You may be part of the problem, btw.
Host: thanks for acknowledging the validity of part of my arguement. WMD! Al Qaeda!

Seriously, you two are like an old married couple.


I stopped fighting with my wife years ago. However, for some reason I still have this need to get into a chest pounding contest every once in awhile. When you see it happening feel free to slap me.

host 03-18-2007 08:56 PM

Well...it's a new week, and some candid talk from:
Quote:


Stephen Roach
Weekly Commentary
Stephen S. Roach is a Managing Director and Chief Economist of Morgan Stanley.
http://www.morganstanley.com/views/g...tml#anchor4577
Quote:

Global
The Great Unraveling
March 16, 2007

By Stephen S. Roach | from Beijing

From bubble to bubble – it’s a painfully familiar saga. First equities, now housing. First denial, then grudging acceptance. It’s the pattern and its repetitive character that is so striking. For the second time in seven years, asset-dependent America has gone to excess. And once again, twin bubbles in a particular asset class and the real economy are in the process of bursting – most likely with greater-than-expected consequences for the US economy, a US-centric global economy, and world financial markets.

Sub-prime is today’s dot-com – the pin that pricks a much larger bubble. Seven years ago, the optimists argued that equities as a broad asset class were in reasonably good shape – that any excesses were concentrated in about 350 of the so-called Internet pure-plays that collectively accounted for only about 6% of the total capitalization of the US equity market at year-end 1999. That view turned out to be dead wrong. The dot-com bubble burst, and over the next two and a half years, the much broader S&P 500 index fell by 49% while the asset-dependent US economy slipped into a mild recession, pulling the rest of the world down with it. Fast-forward seven years, and the actors have changed but the plot is strikingly similar. This time, it’s the US housing bubble that has burst, and the immediate repercussions have been concentrated in a relatively small segment of that market – sub-prime mortgage debt, which makes up around 10% of total securitized home debt outstanding. As was the case seven years ago, I suspect that a powerful dynamic has now been set in motion by a small mispriced portion of a major asset class that will have surprisingly broad macro consequences for the US economy as a whole.

Too much attention is being focused on the narrow story – the extent of any damage to housing and mortgage finance markets. There’s a much bigger story. Yes, the US housing market is currently in a serious recession – even the optimists concede that point. To me, the real debate is about “spillovers” – whether the housing downturn will spread to the rest of the economy. In my view, the lessons of the dot-com shakeout are key in this instance. Seven years ago, the spillover effects played out with a vengeance in the corporate sector, where the dot-com mania had prompted an unsustainable binge in capital spending and hiring. The unwinding of that binge triggered the recession of 2000-01. Today, the spillover effects are likely to be concentrated in the much large consumer sector. And the loss of that pillar of support is perfectly capable of triggering yet another post-bubble recession.Is the Great Unraveling finally at hand?   click to show 
In the meantime, prepare for the downside – spillover risks are bound to intensify as yet another post-bubble shakeout unfolds.
....and the bursting of the stock market bubble, begat the housing valuation bubble, via the swift interest rate cutting response of the federal reserve:
Quote:

http://web.archive.org/web/200605160...50207-mon.html

Feb 07, 2005

Global: Confession Time

Stephen Roach (New York)

.....At long last, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan has owned up to the central role he has played in sparking unprecedented global imbalances. His confession came in the form of a speech innocuously entitled, “Current Account” that was given in London at the Advancing Enterprise 2005 Conference on the eve of the 5 February G-7 meeting. In the narrow world of econo-speak, his prepared text contains the functional equivalent of a “smoking gun.”

Greenspan’s admission came when he finally made the connection between the excesses of America’s property market and its gaping current account deficit. To the best of my knowledge, this was the first time he ventured into this realm of the debate with such clarity. He starts by conceding “…the growth of home mortgage debt has been the major contributor to the decline in the personal saving rate in the United States from almost 6 percent in 1993 to its current level of 1 percent.” He then goes on to admit that the rapid growth in home mortgage debt over the past five years has been “driven largely by equity extraction” -- jargon for the withdrawal of asset appreciation from the consumer’s largest portfolio holding, the home. In addition, the Chairman cites survey data suggesting, “Approximately half of equity extraction shows up in additional household expenditures, reducing savings commensurately and thereby presumably contributing to the current account deficit.” In other words, he concedes that a debt-induced consumption boom has led to a massive current account deficit. That says it all, in my view.....
Quote:

http://web.archive.org/web/200601152...20227-wed.html
Feb 27, 2002

Global: Smoking Gun

Stephen Roach (New York)


....To this very day, the Federal Reserve denies its role in nurturing the US equity bubble. Sure, Chairman Greenspan warned of "irrational exuberance" in his now infamous speech of December 5, 1996. Yet it took the central bank another three months to act on those concerns. And when it did, all the Fed was able to muster was a mere 25 bp of tightening on March 25, 1997. That action unleashed a torrent of politically inspired criticism that sent the Fed quickly running for cover. Any further assault on the bubble was promptly shelved.

Chairman Greenspan then went on to compound the problem by embracing the untested theory of the New Economy -- in effect, setting out the conditions under which the exuberance might actually be rational, when the bubble might not be a bubble. After all, sharply accelerating productivity growth was the sustenance of sustained earnings vigor, went the logic at the time. Under those conditions, maybe the markets might have had it right all along -- lofty multiples made great sense in an era of ever-expanding profit margins. In any case, the Fed sent an important signal to financial markets -- that it was willing to be unusually passive in tolerating the rapid growth of a high-productivity economy. This then set up the delicious moral hazard that speculators quickly pounced on. With the Fed out of the game, there was no stopping the equity market.

Alas, if the Federal Reserve only knew what was to come -- the dot-com implosion, the excesses of telecom debt, a massive capacity overhang, an unprecedented consumption binge, a record debt overhang, and obfuscation of underlying corporate earnings growth. Had it seen such a perilous post-bubble future, maybe the central bank would have reacted differently. Easier said than done, of course -- hindsight is the ultimate luxury.

Yet it turns out that the Fed knew a lot more than it claimed at the time. Recently released transcripts of policy meetings back in 1996 -- verbatim reports of actual conversations rather than the sanitized minutes that are published approximately 45 days after each FOMC gathering -- leave no doubt, in my mind, that Chairman Greenspan and several of his colleagues appreciated the full gravity of the rapidly emerging US equity bubble. (Note: These transcripts are released with a five-year time lag and are available on the Fed�s Web site at http://www.federalreserve.gov/). The problem was the US authorities lacked the will to act. Had the Fed taken actions based on its concerns at the time, the US economy and financial markets would undoubtedly have traveled a very different road. .....

.....the Fed took its one feeble shot at the bubble with the March 25, 1997 rate hike. And that was basically it. After having put on a tightening bias back in July 1996 and maintaining that bias through June 1998 (except for two crisis-related exceptions in December 1997 and February 1998), the Fed was astonishingly timid. <b>Then along came the full force of the Asian and LTCM crises, and yet another dose of even greater monetary accommodation was added to the equation. That set the stage for an even greater liquidity injection -- just what every asset bubble needs.

Particularly troublesome, in my view, was the Fed�s very public campaign against using margin requirements as a means to pop the asset bubble.</b> It smacked of a central bank attempting to make the case that there was really nothing it could do to address a serious problem. .......

.....A few lonely souls on Wall Street, of all places, lobbied vociferously to the contrary. Paul McCulley of PIMCO and Steve Galbraith, then an obscure financial services analyst from Sanford Bernstein, testified in front of Congress in early 2000 in favor of hiking margin requirements. I penned a piece in Barron�s around the same time making a similar argument (see "It�s a Classic Moral Hazard Dilemma," Barron�s, March 27, 2000). The Fed stonewalled this criticism, but alas, by then, it was far too late.

In the end, the lesson is painfully obvious. The asset bubble is one of the greatest hazards that any economy or financial system can face. From Tulips to Nasdaq, the record of economic history is littered with the rubble of post-bubble economies. It takes both wisdom and courage to avoid such tragic outcomes. Sadly, as the full story now comes out, we find that America�s Federal Reserve had neither.....
ace....subprime and Alt-A mortgages were the "dose of liquidity" that put real estate valuations into bubble level "tops". IMO, this is going to play out with a downward velocity that will shock many. Just as too much liquidity chased too few available housing units on the way up in price...price will be depressed by the sheer numbers of overbuilt units and foreclosures and increasing velocity of backed up "for sale" inventory that will take back the home equity that was already "withdrawn, and spent, by huge numbers of American home owners. The decline will feed on itself, ace.....consider a more defensive POV, my friend. Stephen Roach was correct in calling for increased margin lending restrictions in the March 2000 stock market, and he is calling the economic trend correctly, this time, as well......

aceventura3 03-19-2007 06:12 AM

The subprime issue is more hype than substance. The fundamental value of real estate is real. True experts are not suprised by what is happening in the market today, are not paniced, and see the correction as healthy for the market.

Quote:

The performance of the residential housing market over the last ten years has been remarkable. According to the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO), house prices have appreciated at an annual rate of 5.4% on average (68.9% over the whole time period). Perhaps even more remarkable is that the performance was strong even when economic activity overall was weak. Average annual appreciation rates have been 7.4% (26% in total) since the collapse of the Nasdaq in 2000 and 7.1% (20% in total) since 2001:Q1, the beginning of the 2001 recession. In contrast, since the start of the 2001 recession, the S&P 500 and Nasdaq have averaged negative annual returns of –2.43% and –1.42% respectively.

These kinds of statistics have generated an enormous amount of commentary along with suspicions of a house price bubble. At first glance, housing would appear to be just the type of market that is susceptible to systematic mispricings. Most market participants have little experience, making transactions only infrequently. Asymmetric or incomplete information between buyers and sellers about demand and prices is acute. Even with the advent of new technologies, the matching of buyers with sellers remains cumbersome and slow. And unlike other markets, there are no good ways to “short” the housing market if prices get too high.

This Economic Letter describes one of the measures commonly used to gauge the fundamental value of housing—the price-rent ratio. We describe the kinds of forces that cause the ratio to move over time and document which forces appear to be most important. We document the way that the housing market typically adjusts to changes in economic fundamentals.

Fundamental value and the price-rent ratio

The price of housing is determined by the forces of supply and demand for the housing good. So, naturally, many economists try to relate prices to variables that might shift supply and demand, like interest rates and household income. Price dynamics are often described in terms of the interactions between these variables and the natural constraints on delivering new supply to the market (see McCarthy and Peach 2004).

We borrow from the finance literature to take a different approach. The finance paradigm holds that an asset has a fundamental value that equals the sum of its future payoffs, each discounted back to the present by investors using rates that reflect their preferences. For stocks, the payoffs requiring discounting are the expected dividends. This approach can extend to housing by recognizing that a house yields a dividend in the form of the roof over the head of the occupant. The fundamental value of a house is the present value of the future housing service flows that it provides to the marginal buyer. In a well-functioning market, the value of the housing service flow should be approximated by the rental value of the house.

A bubble occurs—in either the stock market or the housing market—when the current price of an asset deviates from its fundamental value. Right away we see that bubbles are difficult to detect because fundamental value is fundamentally unobservable. No one knows for sure what future dividends are going to be, or what discount rates investors will require on assets. Despite this obstacle, analysts still find it helpful to construct measures of fundamental value for comparison to actual valuations. One popular measure is the price-dividend ratio, which corresponds to a price-rent ratio for houses. The price-rent ratio for the U.S. housing market is in Figure 1. The price series is the existing home sales price index published by OFHEO; this index is a repeat sales index, meaning that index changes are compiled from the price changes on individual houses that turn over during the sample period. One of its drawbacks is that it does not fully differentiate between pure house price appreciation and price changes due to depreciation or home improvement. The rent series is the owner’s equivalent rent index published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS); this series is intended to measure changes in the service flow value of owner-occupied housing. The figure suggests that current prices are high relative to rents. More precisely, house prices have been growing faster than implied rental values for quite some time: currently, the value of the U.S. price-rent ratio is 18% higher than its long-run average.

It is tempting to identify a bubble as a large and long-lasting deviation in the price-rent ratio from its average value, just like the one that we see in Figure 1. But exactly how large and how long-lasting a deviation must be to resemble a bubble is far from obvious. There is no reason to believe that a price-dividend ratio should be constant over time, even in the absence of bubbles; in particular, Campbell and Shiller (1988) showed that the value of the ratio today can increase only if there are expected future increases in dividends, expected future decreases in returns, or both. This simple model of the price-dividend ratio is based on a simple identity and the definition of a return as the sum of a dividend yield and a capital gain/loss.

To make the implications of this simple model more concrete for our housing application, imagine a real estate market near a military base that has just been scheduled to close five years from now. The inevitable job loss associated with the closure is an adverse shock to the demand for housing. This should cause a decrease in the future value of the housing dividends on houses in the area, driving house prices down immediately. Current rental contracts, however, should be relatively unaffected because the closure is so far off in the future. Thus, the price-rent ratio should decline. Alternatively, suppose the government could credibly promise to reduce taxes on real estate and keep them low forever. This change would probably lead to a higher demand for housing; at the margin, households would have the incentive to shift savings from financial assets to housing. In addition, the elimination of uncertainty about future tax rates would imply that houses are safer assets, requiring lower future returns. In this case, the price-rent ratio should increase.

What moves the price-rent ratio?

Given a notion of the sources of variability in the price-rent ratio, it is natural to wonder which sources are most important. Cochrane (1991) conducts this exercise for the case of stocks and finds that most of the most variation comes from changes in returns.

We conduct Cochrane’s experiment for houses. To construct the price-rent ratios we use OFHEO’s existing home sales index and the owner’s equivalent rent index published by the BLS. We use quarterly data, ranging from 1982:Q4 to 2003:Q1. The constraint on the sample period is that the owner’s equivalent rent series does not begin until 1982. We could extend the rental series back further by using a pure rent series, but only at the cost of severing the link between an owner-occupied price in the numerator of our ratio and an approximation to an owner-occupied service flow value in the denominator.

The basic insight of the empirical research on price-dividend ratios is that movements in the price-dividend ratio can be decomposed into two parts: movements relative to future expected dividend growth rates, and movements relative to future expected returns. In theory, these future variables are unknown to the investors when they set prices. In this application, we set the expected future dividend growth rates and returns equal to the actual values that occurred. Also in theory, we should assume all “future” dividend growth rates and returns to mean those extended to infinity. Obviously, this is not possible, so we study how the price-rent ratio moves relative to the next 15 quarters of rental growth rates and returns. (We experimented with other horizons, and found that the results did not change much.) Note also that we are unable to incorporate the current episode of price appreciation. We run out of observations before we can say anything definitive about the recent house price appreciation.

The main result from this decomposition is that the behavior of the price-rent ratio for housing mirrors that of the price-dividend ratio for stocks. The majority of the movement of the price-rent ratio comes from future returns, not rental growth rates. This will not comfort everyone, as it implies that price-rent ratios change because prices are expected to change in the future, and seemingly out of proportion to changes in rental values. A more comforting conclusion, however, is that, despite the well-known frictions in real estate markets, the dynamics of a common valuation measure are still similar to those observed in a near-frictionless market like the stock market. It may appear that returns are quite volatile relative to changes in rental values, but this is true for stock prices as well and only serves to underscore our inability to understand how expectations and required rates of return on assets are formed.

Another result is that almost all of the movement in the aggregate U.S. price-rent ratio was accounted for by two factors—the proxy for future growth in rents and the proxy for future returns. Put another way, other factors, such as bubbles, do not appear to be empirically important for explaining the behavior of the aggregate price-rent ratio. At the same time, when applied to local real estate markets, in many cases the movement in the price-rent ratio predicted by the model is much greater than the actual movement; specifically, the results indicate that something other than our measures of future rent growth and returns explains price-rent ratios. While we do not know what this “something other” is, the more common overstatement of volatility is caused by a much stronger comovement between the price-rent ratio and future returns than the comovement between price-rent and future rent growth.

The excess of the price-rent ratio volatility (the difference between the movement predicted by the model and the actual movement) can be traced to the volatility of house prices in local markets. Most recently, local housing markets that historically have had “excess” volatility in future returns also exhibit high house prices compared to fundamentals. This is shown in Figure 2, where the vertical axis measures the excess volatility in percent terms; zero corresponds to the case in which the model and our implementation explain the actual price-rent ratio precisely. The horizontal axis measures the price-rent ratios normalized to have the value of one in 1995:Q4.

The figure shows that in some markets, such as Dallas and Chicago, the combination of future growth in rents and future returns account for most of the variation in the price-rent ratio. Price-rent ratios in these markets appear to behave as do those in the national market. Other markets, such as Boston, Los Angeles, and San Francisco, have return streams that are much more variable than the price-rent ratios they are supposed to be tied to. Perhaps not coincidentally, these markets are thought to be ones where the supply constraint on new construction is particularly tight. Also, these are markets that now appear to be most highly valued.

Conclusions

The price-rent ratio for the U.S. and many regional markets is now much higher than its historical average value. We used a model from the finance literature to describe how the price-rent ratio can move over time. We found that most of the variance in the price-rent ratio is due to changes in future returns and not to changes in rents. This is relevant because it suggests the likely future path of the ratio. If the ratio is to return to its average level, it will probably do so through slower house price appreciation.
http://www.frbsf.org/publications/ec...el2004-27.html

host 03-19-2007 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
The subprime issue is more hype than substance. The fundamental value of real estate is real. True experts are not suprised by what is happening in the market today, are not paniced, and see the correction as healthy for the market.



http://www.frbsf.org/publications/ec...el2004-27.html

ace....the publication that you posted to support your article was published in 2004, based on pre-Oct., 2004 information. Stephen Roach debunks all of it in the three pieces of his that I posted.

The housing valuation "bubble" did not accelerate to a "bubble top" until after the data/conclusions in your posted publication was published. MEW was not "extracted" from consumer's home equity in $800 billion annual "chunks" until several quarters after Oct., 2004, and the subprime and Alt-A lending abuses that are now destroying the mortgage writing businesses and the credit ratings and financial security of the borrowers of those mortgages, were mostly created in 2005 and 2006.....

Look for valuation losses as high as 50 percent from top of bubble highs, ace,
they are coming. How can housing prices, driven up by waves of liquidity created out of thin air by our fractional reserve banking system, avoid the same decline of Nasdaq 2000 index stocks of 1999 to 2002.....driven up by the same dynamics, and then down when the liquidity driven sentiment, and the credit availability of the speculative buyers (bidders), declined.....
Quote:

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...70530620070314
Top investor sees U.S. property crash
Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:45 AM BST17

By Elif Kaban

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Commodities investment guru Jim Rogers stepped into the U.S. subprime fray on Wednesday, predicting a real estate crash that would trigger defaults and spread contagion to emerging markets.

"You can't believe how bad it's going to get before it gets any better," the prominent U.S. fund manager told Reuters by telephone from New York.

"It's going to be <b>a disaster for many people who don't have a clue about what happens when a real estate bubble pops.</b>

"It is going to be a huge mess," said Rogers, who has put his $15 million (8 million pound) belle epoque mansion on Manhattan's Upper West Side on the market and is planning to move to Asia.

Worries about losses in the U.S. mortgage market have sent stock prices falling in Asia and Europe, with shares in financial services companies falling the most.

Some investors fear the problems of lenders who make subprime loans to people with weak credit histories are spreading to mainstream financial firms and will worsen the U.S. housing slowdown.

"Real estate prices will go down 40-50 percent in bubble areas. There will be massive defaults. This time it'll be worse because we haven't had this kind of speculative buying in U.S. history," Rogers said.......

aceventura3 03-19-2007 07:24 AM

The point of the article was to show an objective method of determining the fundamental value of real estate. Using mathematical modeling we can determine the extent of overvaluation. Then we can challenge the assumtions used in the mathematical model. When people randomly pick numbers out of the air to say what they think the impact will be is pretty much meaningless. At this point in the hype it's the people not willing to do math having their opinions publicized all over the palce.

Just like my analysis of LEND, when I do the same for real estate in my local market, there is some fat but not much. and certainly not 50%. Perhaps 50% applies to your local market, but I doubt nationally we will see a drop over 5% to 10% in year over year numbers.

Quote:

As part of its quarterly survey, the National Association of Realtors reported a 2.7 percent decline in prices in the fourth quarter compared to the fourth quarter of a year earlier. That's the biggest year-over-year drop on record.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/15/real...s_q4/index.htm

aceventura3 03-23-2007 07:24 AM

Host,

Seen the latest housing report?

Quote:

U.S. existing-home sales unexpectedly climbed in February, but subprime-market woes could chill demand farther down the road.

Home resales rose to a 6.69 million annual rate, a 3.9% increase from January's revised 6.44 million annual pace, the National Association of Realtors said Friday. January's rate was originally estimated at 6.46 million.

Economists had expected February to come in around 6.33 million, according to a survey by Thomson Financial.

The median home price was $212,800 in February, compared with a revised $210,900 in January and a revised $215,700 in February 2006.

NAR chief economist David Lereah said some of the rise might have been due to mild weather. "But fundamentals have improved in the housing market," he said.

Delinquency rates for subprime mortgage loans rose at the end of last year. Wall Street is worried tighter lending standards for borrowers with less-than-sterling credit could slow home sales in the future.

Mr. Lereah predicts subprime problems could cost between 100,000 and 250,000 annual sales of new and existing homes over the next couple years. "Will it affect the housing market? Yes," he said. "But it's not going to lead to an economic recession."

Inventories of homes were up 5.9% at the end of February to 3.75 million available for sale, which represented a 6.7-month supply at the current sales pace. There was a 6.6-month supply at the end of January.

Regionally, existing-home sales were mixed. Sales rose 3.9% in the Midwest, 14.2% in the Northeast, and 1.6% in the South. Demand in the West was flat.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1174..._whats_news_us

host 03-23-2007 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
Host,

Seen the latest housing report?



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1174..._whats_news_us

ace, IMO David Lereah is a paid "shill" for NAR who has been right about the depth and duration of the decline in the residential housing market on zero occasions, since it began in some areas of the US in Sept., 2005.

The february "numbers" do not reflect the impact of the severe tightening in mortgage qualifying ability of more current and future "refi" and new mortgage applicants, than you can possible imagine yet, ace....but it's coming:

IMO, this is over....The "home builders", consumers, recent home buyers, those who "maxed out their home equity in serial "refis", and the US economy are "dead men walking". The "lending model" could only be sustained if residential property rose in value. Mortgage applicants who would never be approved for loans in a no or low appreciation price environment, drove the demand, along with speculators and 2nd home buyers, and initial scarcity of "for sale" inventory, drove up price and eventually an overbuilt, excess inventory.

Now, in a declining price environment, formerly credit worthy folks, enriched on "cash out refinancing" on 3 or 4 occasions in the last 5 years as their home equity, on paper, rose, speculated on second home purchases, refied their credit cards and car loans into their newest refied mortgage, extracted "MEW" of $800 billion in 2005, and spent it into an economy that grew briskly, because of this "one time", escalating stimulus.

Now, it will all unwind....the US Congress can only push for tighter terms on all borrowers, and all will be required to meet lending restrictions that will only qualify those capable of making payments at 30 year, conventional, principle and interest, with insurance and tax payments also factored.

PEOPLE!!! THIS IS NOT A "PROBLEM" CONFINED TO SUB-PRIME BORROWERS....
Quote:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...xMc&refer=home
Subprime Meltdown Snares Borrowers With Better Credit (Update3)

By Jody Shenn

March 22 (Bloomberg) -- The subprime credit crunch is beginning to ensnare even borrowers with better credit. ....
IT IS A LIQUIDITY TRAP THAT WILL TRIGGER A HUGE WAVE OF FORECLOSURES AND A DOWNWARD VALUATION SPIRAL THAT WILL BE INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL TO THE "UP" PRICE MOVE:

Other examples: DOW 30 Index, Sept. 1929= 393
DOW 30 Index, July 8, 1932= 41

Nasdaq 2000 Index, March 10, 2000= 5132
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EI...=15&f=2000&g=d
Nasdaq 2000 Index, Oct. 10, 2002= 1108
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EI...=15&f=2002&g=d

Nikkei 225 stock index, Dec. 29, 1989= 38957
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN...=31&f=1989&g=d
Nikkei 225 stock index, Apr. 3, 2003= 7603
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN...=30&f=2003&g=d

The "good news" is that residential property valuations will not revert to a low of 20 percent of their former highs, but a decline of 40 to 50 percent from the 2005-2006 prices in the areas of the country with the most intense speculative bubbles, is, IMO, a high probability event, and it will be achieved in span of the next 3 to 15 years. The Nasdaq is still less than half way back to it's high of March, 2000, the Nikkei is still below half of it's Dec., 1989 high, and the Dow 30 index did not revisit it's 1929 high again, until 1953.

YOU MIGHT THINK THAT IT IS "DIFFERENT THIS TIME", but it never is....never has been...HUGE BUBBLE...liquidity crunch..HUGE DECLINE....EVERY TIME....

Quote:

http://www.reuters.com/article/banki...00719320070322
WASHINGTON, March 22 (Reuters) - New federal mortgage guidance would slash 60 percent of Countrywide Financial's (CFC.N: Quote, Profile, Research) subprime mortgage lending business, a company executive said on Thursday.

"Sixty percent of people who do qualify for hybrid, adjustable-rate mortgages would not be able to qualify" under the new federal proposal, said Sandor Samuels, executive managing director for Countrywide.

Most subprime loans, offered to borrowers with damaged credit, have adjustable interest rates. Federal guidelines issued earlier this month ask lenders to approve only borrowers who can pay the loan after low introductory rates expire.

The chief executive officer at WMC Mortgage Company, Laurent Bossard, said his firm would lose 40 percent of its subprime business under the proposed guidelines....
Disclosure: Sold KBH short at $49.00 in AM pre-trading yesterday, before it announced that it's unsold backlog increased, and that "earnings" dropped from $2.00+ in the comparable year ago qtr, to .36 cents, last Qtr.

Stock closed at $47.25. Short sold an equal amount today at $48.32, after the "new home sales", 10:00 am report, briefly spurred up the KBH price.

Did a "cover buy" trade, out of yesterday's KBH short position....paid $46.51 today.... $249.00 gross profit on each hundred shares in that trade.

Still short today's shares, borrowed and sold at $48.32

Bought <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=QFWPC.x&x=23&y=16">put contracts</a> on stock symbol LEND today, paid $3.40 each, and I think that this was a "gift", since they are contracts to sell LEND at $15 with
April 21, 2007 expiration, and LEND was $12.40 when I made the trade.
LEND is at $11.95 at this moment, it has traded below $4.00 in the last two weeks, and below $9.00 earlier this week. It had to pledge all of it's assets to obtain a "loan" at 13 percent interest, last week. It is selling billions of loans that it already made at .95 cents on the dollar, or less. Each billion in loans sold, costs LEND at least $50 million. LEND is BK, IMO, trading up on misguided sentiment....

Just sold CFC (Countrywide) short, as I was writing this.... at $36.65 per share. I bought (after Icahn made "noise" about a "plan" to buy at $22.00) <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=wcire.x&x=63&y=15">put contracts</a> on WCI that expire in June at a strike price of $25.00.... I paid $3.20 and WCI trades now at $22.41 ....WCI is stuck with a huge inventory of unsold So. Fla condos....has stopped building new towers, and has laid off more than 2000 since November. The stock price is "propped up" by "noises" made by Carl Icahn...he hold a 15 percent position in WCI and sez he "might" tender an offer at $22.00 for each outstanding share. I view the current valuation at less than $10 per share....with a BK filing possible in the next 12 months:
http://wci-cancellations.com/

Quote:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...yhoo&dist=yhoo

.....Earlier this week, <b>Icahn said he plans</b> to initiate an "any and all" tender offer for WCI's common stock at $22 a share. The tender offer will not be subject to due diligence or financing, he said in a statement. WCI's stock shot up about 15% on Tuesday after Icahn's announcement.
Icahn has been accumulating WCI shares but the company has resisted his plan to run his own slate of candidates for the board, saying it's not in the best interests of shareholders. ......
Icahn issued his PR, 8 days ago, ace....so far, no followup. This will resolve by the third friday in June, and WCI will tank if Icahn is posturing. If he is willing to pay $22.00 per share for this "dog", I'll lose $320.00 (100 x $3.20) per June put contract....if he only issued the "plan", PR, so that folks who followed him into WCI could get a 4 point "bump" to sell their shares into, then I'll do okay.

The point, ace...is that I'm puttin' my money where my mouth is. They'll be tough days....like the post Fed, non-announcement "melt up" of the stock indexes,two days ago....but they were shorting opportunities....there has been no "follow up" from stock buyers, since.....

aceventura3 03-23-2007 10:29 AM

You have more courage than me. With the subprime lenders being so volatile and the obsessive media and now congressional attention on the subprime issue it seems like putting new money on the table is like playing roulett. If I were you I would take the quick profits and put the money in something were the odds of long-term ppayoff is better.

I don't really care what Lereah's opinion is, I just focus on the numbers.

Many in the subprime industry are taking the position that the market forces will work this issue out, and that interference will make matters worse. I agree. If there is calm, this will be a non-issue next month.

jorgelito 03-23-2007 10:47 PM

This is great news. Finally the housing market is undergoing a correction. Once all the bad debts have been cleared out, there will be many great deals and foreclusures to be had by us responsible people. I would prefer it to bottom out more so that the housing prices become more reasonable.

I live in LA where the market is still redhot and way overpriced. 1st world prices for third world conditions. It's embarrassing.

Ace, I agree with your contention that this is an overblown issue and it's best not to interfere. I doubt there will be calm though. Too many people running around screaming the sky is falling egged on by the media.

host 03-26-2007 07:20 AM

ace, I avoid staying in a stock or an option position for more than a day or two,
for the reasons that you stated, but IMO, that will change as the scope of the unwinding of the overall economy that the decline in residential real estate valuations will be the catalyst for, picks up "mo" that is the mirror opposite of the upside "energy" that drove prices to "bubble" levels, and minimum borrowing qualification criteria to ridiculously lax levels.....

jorgelito, what makes you confident that you will have an income that will put you in a position to take advantage of lower housing prices, with news like this?
No one knows what will happen, because it says that it is "unprecedented". The clue that we do have, is that current homeowners ("bag holders"???) have never been more leveraged....more susceptible to bad consequences from even small housing price drops...
Quote:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business...ness-headlines
...."The subprime mortgage market has taken a beating because of an unexpected surge in defaults," said Patrick Newport, an economist at Global Insight. He predicted that home prices would fall in 2007, making it the first annual decline on record....
...and, this is just out in the last hour....did anyone else know that cancellations of contracts for "new home" sales, <a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_baum&sid=aFll0Y8wJuVQ">are never adjusted</a> into previously released date.....making this even more optimistic than it actually is....if that is even possible to consider:
Quote:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...B0BA246F1DE%7D
By Rex Nutting, MarketWatch
Last Update: 10:25 AM ET Mar 26, 2007

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- Sales of newly constructed U.S. housing unexpectedly slowed again in February, falling 3.9% to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 848,000, the lowest level since June 2000, the Commerce Department reported Monday.....

.....Sales are reported when a contract is signed, not at the closing of the sale. Builders have reported a large increase in cancellations in recent months. Since cancellations are not reflected in the government data, reported sales are likely overstated.......
....so....it could actually be as bad as 30 percent lower than reported, with even higher inventories...and more unsold units nearing completion....and consider that these numbers are not yet affected by new lending qualifications restrictions, or by an increase in the unemployment rate, or by a huge rise in foreclosures...it's coming....count on it....or even by sellers who have lost hope because this year's "selling season" is over.....

....and there have been no significant layoffs in the homebuilding, realty, appraisal, home inspection, landscaping, building supplies employment sectors, or even a reported downturn in their activity levels....and it will all weigh on the economy...with a delayed and then sustained ripple effect. Check out reports on morgage industry employment impact in Orange County...and, how many commercial office spaces will stop producing revenue.....as this picks up "steam"?:
Quote:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/17759945
By CNBC.com Staff | 23 Mar 2007 | 05:24 PM
CNBC's Scott Cohn reports on how the lending mess is playing out in Orange County, where the mortgage product was born.

.......CNBC's Diana Olick and Scott Cohn have more on the story.

One in five jobs in Orange County is tied to the mortgage industry. No wonder then, that unemployment has ticked up half of a percentage point recently. Foreclosures in January were up 22% from a year ago.........

host 04-08-2007 07:56 AM

in an effort to share with those interested in watching the US housing market and housing valuations implode....in real time.....consider this site:
http://www.countrywide.com/purchase/f_reo.asp

You'll be able to watch Coountrywde Mortgage Comany's inventory of foreclosed and unsold houses rise....and they and other mortgage companies will lower prices until the market is flooded wth this "stuff". Either that....or they pay taxes...maintenance....etc....on the houses that they eat as mortgagees walk away from loans. Fifteen percent of Calif. homes for sale are already foreclosures.

Combine this with the drying up of liqiuidty for new lending and this will work it's way UP to "prime" mortgagees. Mortgagees who put down 20 percent but who experiencee the loss of all eqiuty in their homes....and then some....will walk away too...if valuation drops low enough for long enough....now it's sprfeading from subprime to Alt-A loans....

Below:
ALT-A lender AHM waited until the start of a 3 day weekend (with the markets closed) to release it's "bad news".

inDYBank (NDE) fought off the decline in it's stock pirce by staging highly publcized insider "buys" of it's shares....and by shouting that they were Alt-A lenders not subprime. With the bad news from Alt-A lenders AHM and from M&T Bank what excuse will indybank say next?

Countrywide committed to buying back $1 billion of it's own shares....even as chairman Angelo Mozilo sold his own shares as quickly as he could....ALL are doing everything they can to take attention away from the fact that they are trapped by the declining credit quality of those who they lent money to and by the declining collateral of the mortgagees in their homes and by a smaller pool of qualified new borrrowers as loan approoval requirements further tighten as the news of the fundamentals grows worse.....


Quote:

http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2...ally-well.html
Thursday, April 05, 2007
Alt-A: Another Exceptionally Well-Disguised Blessing

LoanPerformance’s December 2006 issue of its newsletter, “The Market Pulse,” is now available online. (You must subscribe (free) in order to download a copy.) It features an article by UBS’s David Liu and Shumin Li which you might not want to read if you are both 1) an owner of certain Alt-A mortgage-backed bond tranches and 2) eating.

I recommend the entire newsletter, which is full of charts and maps and things for those of you who are graphically minded. The Liu and Li article, however, is a must-read for bond geeks. The conclusion:

If [prepayment] speeds slow 20-25% as we predicted . . . [Alt-A] cumulative losses could rise an additional 25-30%, which will be ~200 bps under the weak HPA [less than 5%] scenario.

By comparison, BBB- bonds backed by Alt-A hybrids are generally designed to have credit enhancement of ~200 bps. . . On average, credit support of BBB- bonds will be erased over the life of the deal, although the losses will not hit the BBB- bonds. The bonds will most likely be downgraded due to the serious erosion of credit support. . . .

If the housing market remains flat or turns negative for a prolonged period of time (e.g., [less than] 1% annual HPA for the next 3-5 years), then we expect cumulative losses on these deals to rise another 20% (based on the limited data we have observed in the subprime ARM sector), which will wipe out the credit support of BBB bonds on these deals even without considering the distribution of losses. . . .

In summary--we project baseline prepayment speeds of low 20 CPR (for 5/1s), and therefore cumulative default rates of 12-13%, applying a loss severity of 15% on all defaulted loans - - would result in a cumulative loss of ~200 bps, which could potentially wipe out most of the credit support [of] BBB- rated bonds backed by Alt-A hybrids. And yet - we have not seen any spread movements that suggest investors are taking this into consideration. [emphasis in original]

Quote:

http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/...8011-OISBN.XML
IndyMac CEO: Subprime Contagion Fears Overblown
Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:00 PM BST18

NEW YORK (Reuters) - IndyMac Bancorp Inc. (NDE.N: Quote, Profile , Research) said on Thursday its lending practices are far safer than those of many "subprime" lenders, calling investor fears that it will suffer heavily from rising defaults "overblown."

Shares in the California mortgage specialist rose more than 6 percent after it issued the news release.

IndyMac, which is also one of the largest U.S. savings and loans, specializes in "Alt-A" mortgages, which have risk levels ranking between "prime" and "subprime" mortgages, or which do not qualify for the lowest rates.

Its shares have lost more than one-fourth of their value this year amid fears that financial difficulties afflicting many subprime lenders, such as New Century Financial Corp. (NEWC.PK: Quote, Profile , Research) and many others in California, might spread. Subprime lenders make home loans to people with poor credit.

"Because on an objective analysis of the facts, talk of the 'subprime contagion' spreading to the Alt-A sector of the mortgage market is, in our view, overblown," Michael Perry, chief executive of Pasadena-based IndyMac, said in a statement.

IndyMac's credit quality "shines in relation to the industry, validating our lending standards and practices," he added.

Perry last week bought more than $1 million of IndyMac stock, according to regulatory filings.

IndyMac shares rose $1.98, or 6.4 percent, to $33.12 in afternoon trading on the New York Stock Exchange. They began the year at $45.16.
Quote:

http://www.labusinessjournal.com/ind...2=111643&cID=2
Los Angeles Business Journal PRINT | CLOSE WINDOW

Countrywide and IndyMac Vulnerable to Alt-A Fallout
By JABULANI LEFFALL - 3/26/2007
Los Angeles Business Journal Staff

If the subprime meltdown spreads into higher loan classes, Los Angeles-area lending giants Countrywide Financial Corp. and IndyMac Bancorp Inc. stand to get hit by what one lending expert calls the “law of reverse gravity.”


“With bad loan exposure, it’s bottom-up instead of top-down,” said Keith Corbett, executive vice president for Center for Responsible Lending.


“You got subprime on bottom and prime on top and there’s this middle that will be hit, an area where bad loans in the subprime space may lead to not only defaults but tighter underwriting standards for Alt-A loans and perhaps upward.”


So-called Alt-A loans are extended to borrowers whose credit scores fall short of prime but are above subprime. Los Angeles County is a center of the Alt-A universe, partly because of its large and diverse population of entrepreneurs, performing artists, independent contractors and others with decent but not-so-steady income. High property prices also push some borrowers who otherwise would be prime borrowers into Alt-A territory.


Both Countrywide and IndyMac are among the very biggest Alt-A lenders in the country. A small but significant portion of the outstanding loan portfolio of Calabasas-based Countrywide, the largest U.S. lender, is Alt-A. IndyMac of Pasadena, which originated $69 billion in Alt-A loans last year, has more than 70 percent of its loan portfolio designated as Alt-A.


“Over the last two years, the distinction between Alt-A and subprime has become even more blurry,” said David Liu, mortgage strategy analyst for investment bank UBS AG. “Therefore the same types of problems, such as growing delinquencies, that plagued subprime loans are going to filter into the Alt-A market to a certain extent, and if you’re a company in this area, you’ll be affected adversely.”


Don’t call us subprime!

Countrywide and IndyMac recently have seen their stocks slide 21 and 41 percent respectively off their 52-week highs and have responded vehemently to news reports linking them to the subprime market.


Both companies point out that subprime loans are a small part of their respective loan portfolios.


IndyMac has been catching so much flak for being in the “subprime business” that it released a statement March 15 clarifying its “strong position as an Alt-A lender.”


“Based on the definition of subprime established by the Office of Thrift Supervision for our regulatory filings,” the statement read, “only 3 percent of IndyMac’s $90 billion in mortgage loan production in 2006 was subprime.”


Analysts thus far have been less than impressed with these explanations.


Robert Lacoursiere, an analyst with Bank of America Securities, recently issued a “sell” rating on both Countrywide and IndyMac. He anticipates increased write-downs and loan-loss provisions.


“We expect a difficult environment going forward for Countrywide and IndyMac,” he wrote in a research note, adding that both companies would face continued increases in credit risk in 2007.


Countrywide declined specific comment but said it was watching the market to see the degree to which its Alt-A operations are affected.


Meanwhile, IndyMac Chairman and Chief Executive Michael Perry said via e-mail that it was no fun to have the current level of turmoil in the mortgage business and see IndyMac’s earnings and stock price decline, causing stress for employees and shareholders. That said, he added that he thought the industry needed a shakeup in the form of the current “firestorm” to restore rationality and discipline to the industry.


“Clearly, the mortgage market and, in particular, the secondary market for mortgages are in a state of irrational panic right now, making it virtually impossible to predict short-term loan production and sales volumes or earnings with any reasonable precision until things settle down,” he said.


Red ink in the gray area?

Alt-A loans skyrocketed from about $85 billion in 2003 to about $400 billion last year.


Default rates for Alt-A mortgages doubled in the past 14 months, partly because the so-called teaser rates – temporarily low interest rates for the first few months or years of a mortgage – have been expiring at the same time home prices have flatlined. In the past, borrowers simply refinanced or sold when their teaser rates expired, relying on sharply appreciating home prices to bail them out.


Liu of UBS AG said that cumulative losses in the Alt-A sector in the past year are 10 times that of the prime market.


Zach Gast, of the Center for Financial Research, said that if Congress pushes for tougher underwriting standards, a large percentage of borrowers whose loans have already been approved would not qualify after any new standards are put in place.


“And most of the applicants will fall into the Alt-A loan category, which is largest in California,” he said.


Before the recent upheaval, a potential borrower could’ve had a Fair Isaac Co. (FICO) credit score as low as 640 and get an Alt-A loan at a lender’s discretion. Today that number is more like 680. IndyMac’s new average requirement for Alt-A is 701. Subprime requirements are shooting up from 600 to a low of 670.
Quote:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...q4o&refer=home

M&T Shares Fall on Lower-Than-Expected Mortgage Bids (Update2)

By Elizabeth Hester

April 2 (Bloomberg) -- Shares of M&T Bank Corp., the New York bank partly owned by Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc., fell the most since 1998 after the firm cut its earnings forecast because of weaker-than-expected demand for mortgages.

The stock tumbled $9.83, or 8.5 percent, to $106 at 3:13 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The Buffalo, New York-based company last week cut its first-quarter profit forecast by $7 million because so-called Alt-A mortgages it tried to sell attracted lower bids than predicted. M&T also said rising defaults mean it must buy back some loans it previously sold.

Shares of mortgage lenders have dropped this year as defaults on subprime loans rose to a four-year high. Companies that offer Alt-A mortgages, a category considered at less risk of default, have said in the past month that investors are mistaking them for subprime lenders and unfairly punishing their shares.

M&T ``is among the first banks to report that recent issues in the subprime arena have, in fact, spread upward to `higher- quality' borrowers,'' wrote Joseph Fenech, managing director at Sandler O'Neill & Partners LP, in a note to investors. ``We would not be surprised to see similar-type pre-announcements from other banks.'' Fenech rates M&T stock a ``hold.''

Shares of IndyMac Bancorp Inc., another Alt-A lender, fell as much as 5.9 percent and rival Impac Mortgage Holdings Inc. fell as much as 5.6 percent. IndyMac's shares have lost almost a third of their value this year and Impac is down 46 percent. M&T Bank has fallen 13 percent in 2007. Today's decline was the biggest since Aug. 31, 1998.

New Century Bankruptcy

Surging defaults in subprime mortgages, those to borrowers with bad credit or high debt, have forced more than 30 lenders to close, cut operations or seek buyers since the start of 2006. New Century Financial Corp. today became the biggest subprime mortgage company to file for bankruptcy in the past year after being overwhelmed by customer defaults.

The loans M&T planned to sell didn't attract the offers the bank expected at auction, the company said on March 30 after the close of regular trading. M&T cut their value, resulting in after-tax costs of 7 cents a share. The loss on the loan buyback will cut profit by another $4 million, or 3 cents a share, the bank said.

``Even excluding the losses on the Alt-A portfolio, MTB still would have missed estimates by a notable margin,'' said A.G. Edwards Inc. analyst David George in a note to clients. He rates the shares ``hold.''

Alt-A mortgages, short for Alternative A, fall shy of the credit criteria of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two largest sources of mortgage money in the U.S. They often involve loans made with less proof of borrowers' income or assets, purchases of homes by investors or interest-only loans and ``option'' adjustable-rate mortgages, whose payments can fail to cover the interest owed.

M&T said it plans to keep $883 million of Alt-A home loans instead of selling them because management believes the bids don't reflect their true value.
Quote:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...yhoo&dist=yhoo
American Home Mortgage cuts profit forecast
Warning suggests subprime woes are spreading to other home loans
By Alistair Barr, MarketWatch
Last Update: 4:14 PM ET Apr 6, 2007

This update clarifies that stock markets were closed for Good Friday, with the share price given from Thursday.
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- American Home Mortgage Investment Corp. cut its first-quarter and full-year profit forecast by more than 25% Friday after being hit by problems in the secondary market for home loans and mortgage-backed securities.
The company also said that it's stopped offering some types of so-called Alt-A mortgages because of the high cost of delinquencies on those loans.
<b>The warning suggests that problems in the subprime-mortgage business have begun spreading to other parts of the home-loan industry.</b>

AHM ) said that first-quarter earnings will be roughly 40 cents to 60 cents a share, down from its previous view of $1.11 to $1.17 a share. For 2007, it forecast earnings of $3.75 to $4.25 a share, compared with the $5.40 to $5.70 a share it previously predicted. The company also announced that it is cutting its quarterly dividend to 70 cents from its previous level of $1.12 a share.
"During March, conditions in the secondary-mortgage and mortgage-securities markets changed sharply," said Michael Strauss, American Home's chief executive, in a statement. "While the market may recover ... our working assumption must be that current market conditions will persist."
American Home also indicated that it continues to be affected by the high cost of delinquencies, especially on Alt-A mortgages, and that it's been forced to repurchase some of these loans.
The company announced that it's stopped offering certain types of Alt-A loans that have been particularly prone to rising delinquencies and repurchases. Those are loans where the homeowner borrows a relatively high portion of the value of a property and simply states an income, rather than documenting it.
American Home also said that it plans to raise the interest rates charged on mortgages.
Shares of American Home closed at $25.84 on Thursday, down 25% so far this year. Stock markets were closed for Good Friday.

Subprime-mortgage originators like New Century Financial (NEWC
new century financial corp NEWC ) , NovaStar Financial Inc. (NFI novastar finl inc
and Accredited Home Lenders Holding Co.( LEND ) , have been hit hard this year by rising delinquencies and foreclosures. Subprime loans are offered to poorer borrowers with blemished credit records, so many experts expected trouble in this corner of the mortgage market once house prices stopped rising quickly.
<b>But American Home isn't a subprime lender. In early March, the company issued a statement to clear up any "confusion" about the type of loans it offers. Most are adjustable-rate mortgages and so-called Alt-A loans,</b> which often require less documentation. American Home even offers conventional fixed-rate home loans. Subprime mortgage are less than 1% of its total loan portfolio.
Still, American Home said Friday that earnings will be lower because investors in the secondary-mortgage market and the market for mortgage-backed securities (or MBS) offered to buy its loans at "materially lower" prices.
Lower prices for AA-, A-, BBB-rated MBS and riskier bits known as residual-mortgage securities also triggered losses in American Home's investment portfolio, the lender added.

Elphaba 04-10-2007 03:09 PM

Host, I hope you don't mind this personal aside, but I find it refreshing to reread these older posts without the "you just hate Bush" and "looney liberal" responses that passed for debate a year ago. Things do change in time. :)

aceventura3 04-11-2007 07:20 AM

The data does not support an implosion in the realestate market. Alarmist simply want to make headlines, so until there is a material change in the info below, market fundementals will stay strong.

http://www.mnforsustain.org/pop_us_2...0_pyramids.htm

Projected population growth 1999 to 2020 is 57 million.

http://www.census.gov/const/newressales_200702.pdf

Quote:

NEW RESIDENTIAL SALES IN FEBRUARY 2007
Sales of new one-family houses in February 2007 were at a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 848,000, according to estimates released jointly today by the U.S. Census Bureau and the Department of Housing and Urban Development. This is 3.9 percent (±17.4%)* below the revised January rate of 882,000 and is 18.3 percent
(±12.2%) below the February 2006 estimate of 1,038,000.
Currently they are building new single family homes at a rate of 848,000 per year.

http://www.census.gov/population/www...m/cps2006.html

Average household size is 2.57

Therefore there will be about 22 million new households between 1999 and 2020, or a need for an average of 1.1 million new households per year.

Using the above numbers there is an average deficit of about 252,000 housing units per year.

What I don’t know is how many multi-family dwelling units being constructed or the rate in which existing homes are being made obsolete each year. However, no matter how I look at the numbers plugging in assumptions for apartments and obsolesence, the long-term trend for real-estate is good and we are in a short-term correction.

No implosion.

This map shows where the increase in delinquencies are, it is moderate in most of the nation except for Nv, CA and Fl. The folks in those markets should be very concerned, however most need not worry.

http://online.wsj.com/media/info-Delinquency_map.gif

http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...0704-sort.html

host 04-18-2007 05:54 AM

ace, none of the above matters if a massive, unrelenting stream of foreclosure sales competes with homeowner "offerings", and the glut of builders still rising inventories, month after month.....VALUATION will fall, then plummet, turning the ATM cash out refi, into a "cash back in", "re-pay", and then a "walk away". This will feed on itself, just as the uptrend in valuation, to bubble level did, fed by huge amounts of liquidity, advanced to unqualified mortgage applicants, "at the top" of the bubble, for the last several years.

To believe otherwise, is to believe in fairy tales, IMO:

"only the beginning....only just the start-" .....Chicago
Quote:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...7F291784CE9%7D
Foreclosures up 47% year-on-year in March: RealtyTrac

By Rex Nutting
Last Update: 9:11 AM ET Apr 18, 2007

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- U.S. foreclosure filings increased 7% in March from February's levels and were up 47% from a year ago, according to RealtyTrac, an online real estate database. Nationally, there was one foreclosure filings for every 775 households. Five states -- California, Florida, Texas, Michigan and Ohio -- accounted for half the nation's total in March. In California, foreclosure filings increased 36% from February and were up 183% compared with a year ago. <b>Nevada had the highest foreclosure rate at one in every 183 households</b>, followed by Colorado. Six of the top 10 cities were in California, led by Stockton. The data include default notices, auction sale notices and bank repossessions

aceventura3 04-18-2007 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host
ace, none of the above matters if a massive, unrelenting stream of foreclosure sales competes with homeowner "offerings", and the glut of builders still rising inventories, month after month.....VALUATION will fall, then plummet, turning the ATM cash out refi, into a "cash back in", "re-pay", and then a "walk away". This will feed on itself, just as the uptrend in valuation, to bubble level did, fed by huge amounts of liquidity, advanced to unqualified mortgage applicants, "at the top" of the bubble, for the last several years.

Or...about 99% of homeowners will continue paying their mortgages and live happily in their homes.

Quote:

To believe otherwise, is to believe in fairy tales, IMO:
I guess I believe in fairy tales.

Seems like this month the subprime thing isn't making headlines like it did last month.

There are indicators the housing market hit bottom and is recoverying.

Quote:

Building permits, a sign of future construction, also rose 0.8 percent. Permits for single-family homes increased 1.4 percent. Construction of single-family homes rose 2 percent, but work on multifamily structures fell 4 percent.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...i-business-hed

At this point all you have to do is stop responding (I promise not to rub it in), everyone who has read this thread knows your data does not support your view that the housing market is going into free fall and will have broader ramifications throughout the economy causing further panic and doom. I am going to be able to post endless amounts of data showing market improvement - because it is real - because long-term marco indicators support strong market fundementals.

dc_dux 04-18-2007 07:42 AM

Ace...the housing industry doesnt share your optimism.

A press release from NAHB this week:
Quote:

BUILDER CONFIDENCE RECEDES FURTHER IN APRIL

Deepening problems in the subprime mortgage market continued to take a toll on builder confidence in April, according to the National Association of Home Builders/Wells Fargo Housing Market Index (HMI), released today. The index declined three points to 33 in April, its lowest level since December of 2006.

“The tightening of mortgage lending standards in connection with the subprime crisis has shaken the confidence of both consumers and builders, as reflected in this report,” said NAHB Chief Economist David Seiders. [“Indeed, the unfolding effects of this crisis have compelled NAHB to trim our forecasts of home sales and housing production for both 2007 and 2008,” he said. “While we still expect to see some improvements in housing market activity beginning later this year, the downside risks and uncertainties surrounding that forecast are considerable.”

full press release"
http://www.nahb.org/news_details.asp...34&newsID=4429
The NAHB/Wells Fargo Housing Market Index (for whatever its worth) has been in steady decline since 2005:
http://www.nahb.org/generic.aspx?sec...cContentID=529
Quote:

...everyone who has read this thread knows your data does not support your view that the housing market is going into free fall and will have broader ramifications throughout the economy causing further panic and doom.
Isnt a decline in the HMI from 65 in Sept 05 to 33 in April 07 sorta like a free fall...at least in terms of how builders and potential buyers perceive the market.

host 04-18-2007 08:59 AM

dc_dux, "the problem" is actually exacerbated by the mindset that there is "no problem".....

We see "it"....this "mindest"....in the US stock market.....the talking heads on CNBS are going "ga ga"....this week, because the DOW (DJIA) an index of just 30 stocks, is poised to set a new "record", around 12,800....while the Nasdaq 2000 index, a measure of 2000 stocks, is trading at just half of it's march, 2000 peak valuation of 5148. The DOW index is adjusted periodically, removing "laggards".....underperforming stocks that would tend to make that index average lower than it is today. For many Americans, the Dow is the stock market, so.....
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/my/_/_ixic"><br>

The major Japanese stock indes, often called the "Nikkei Dow", is today trading at less than 1/2 it's 1990 level of 39,000.....but we don't dwell on that....
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/my/_/_n225">

Iraq is a fucking mess, but folks like John McCain, Joe Lieberman (described recently as Bush's <a href="http://zenhuber.blogspot.com/2007/03/bush-and-rovewellians-still-going.html">"sex toy"</a>), and president Bush, himself, all see "improvement". All I see are more avoidable, "empty chairs" at the dinner tables at too many US family gatherings....and at Iraqi tables, as well:
Quote:

http://www.fox23news.com/news/world/...6-a694d5bdc910
More than 170 killed in Baghdad

Last Update: Apr 18, 2007 11:56 AM

BAGHDAD (AP) - Despite an ongoing, U.S.-led security crackdown in Baghdad, four separate bombings in the capital today have claimed more than 170 lives.....


Iraq's deadliest days since January 2006
Kansas.com, KS - 11 minutes ago
-March 6, 2007: Officials report 194 deaths, including 120 by two suicide bombers in a crowd of Shiite pilgrims in Hillah, about 60 miles south of Baghdad. ...
Quote:

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/news....aspx?id=32828

American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, April 17, 2007 – Three Marines and five U.S. Army soldiers died, and six soldiers were wounded, in Iraq recently, defense officials said. The Defense Department also released the identities of three soldiers killed previously in Iraq.....
so....I guess that it just depends on how you react to "the news". Everybody does have to live somewhere, ace is right about that.....and it is easier to manipulate the valuations of 30 high profile stocks than it is to "goose" the valuations of a diverse group of 2000 stocks that encompass all areas of the economy and are mostly not high profile.

I'm in the school that believes that we are only in the early morning phase of the economic disaster that many, many American families are headed for...maybe it's about 2:30 am, right now. Ace maintains that the worst is over. Dc_dux, ace will view your example of the 33 number for current builder sentiment as a "tradeable bottom". So far, the Nikkei bottom from 39,000 was
7607 in 2003.....14 years after the top, and the Dow bottomed from a 1929 top of 393, to just 41 in July, 1932. The Nasdaq top was 5148 in March, 2000, and the bottom.....so far....in late 2002 was about 1100.

I see builder sentiment dropping below 10, and....since this is the biggest housing price valuation bubble and lending excess period in US history, average valuation declines of 40 and even 50 percent are certainly expected.
Indeed....in some Florida condo markets, these levels of decline have already been reached.

I hope that you were "playing" with me, in your last post, ace. I'll worry about you if you really were serious in advising me not to post on this subject, because you say the crisis is over, or never existed.....
Quote:

http://ml-implode.com/
Latest count of major US mortgage lenders that have croaked since late 2006:

(why?)
<h3>59
lenders have now gone kaput</h3>

New: Defrauded? Check out our legal help sign-up.

Last addition: April 18, 2007. Latest imploded: Loan Center of California, Home Capital, Inc., Home 123 Mortgage, Homefield Financial, First Horizon Wholesale ...
Quote Of The Week

"... the Fed's efforts to stabilize system profits are a profoundly riskier proposition in today's environment where profits are largely dictated by financial sector expansion (as opposed to capital investment). With corporate profits, household income, asset prices and economic growth now all dependent on ongoing leveraged speculation and rampant financial sector ballooning, sophisticated market players aggressively seek their outsized share of profits with comfort knowing the Fed has no alternative than to sustain the boom." — Doug Noland, "More Minsky", in his April 13th, 2007 Credit Bubble Bulletin.....
0
When I posted here:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...9&postcount=48

....back on Feb, 23....less than 2 months ago.....only 23 of these lenders had imploded.....

Now that the private sector will no longer write risky loans.....putting pressure on housing valuations due to increased foreclosures of overvalued homes, purchased by unqualified buyers with no means of maintaining ownership in a climate of falling housing valuations....along comes a GSE....the government....to the rescue. They looked scared ace.....this is not a development in a healthy market, or in a healthy economy. It smells of the government propping up housing valuations because the alternative is reality.....something that you are avoiding acknowledging, ace:
Quote:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...Zk8&refer=home

Freddie Mac Offers to Buy $20 Billion in Home Loans (Update1)

By James Tyson

April 18 (Bloomberg) -- Freddie Mac, the second-largest source of money for U.S. home loans, is offering to buy as much as $20 billion of mortgages in an effort to maintain the financing available for subprime borrowers, Chief Executive Officer Richard Syron said today.

``To the maximum extent possible we want to approach this from a market driven kind of approach,'' Syron told reporters in Washington during a housing market summit in Washington led by Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd.

Subprime mortgage bond sales have slowed this year after late payments on the underlying loans reached a four-year high of 13.3 percent in the fourth quarter, according to the Mortgage Bankers Association. The sale of subprime mortgage bonds had grown to $450 billion last year from $95 billion in 2001, the Securities Industry Financial Markets Association says.

Syron's offer would effectively guarantee that there is demand from Freddie Mac for as much as $20 billion in new mortgage bonds so long as lenders refinance some of the loans outstanding into more favorable terms for subprime borrowers.

McLean, Virginia-based Freddie Mac, created by Congress to increase financing available to homebuyers, channels money into the mortgage market by buying loans from lenders. It profits by holding mortgages and mortgage bonds as investments and by charging a fee to package home loans as securities for resale. .....
....wouldn't it be easier for the government just to give billions to some of the 59 failed lenders, while telling the market that these lenders will be guaranteed not to fail, no matter how many shitty mortgages for overvalued houses they approve for unqualified applicants?

aceventura3 04-18-2007 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
Ace...the housing industry doesnt share your optimism.

Perhaps what they say and what they do are different. My interest is in what they do.

Quote:

Single-family housing starts in March were at a rate of 1,218,000; this is 2.0 percent (±10.5%)* above the February figure
of 1,194,000. The March rate for units in buildings with five units or more was 262,000.
http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...ts/bbstart.pdf


Quote:

A press release from NAHB this week:

The NAHB/Wells Fargo Housing Market Index (for whatever its worth) has been in steady decline since 2005:
http://www.nahb.org/generic.aspx?sec...cContentID=529

Isnt a decline in the HMI from 65 in Sept 05 to 33 in April 07 sorta like a free fall...at least in terms of how builders and potential buyers perceive the market.
Interesting - perception vs. reality. At Disney land they have a ride that gives the perception of a free fall, I hope people who ride it don't walk away beleiving it was reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

I see builder sentiment dropping below 10, and....since
When I posted here:
[uthis is the biggest housing price valuation bubble and lending excess period in US history, average valuation declines of 40 and even 50 percent are certainly expected.
Indeed....in some Florida condo markets, these levels of decline have already been reached.

If sentiment was the market driver, why hasn't new money stopped going into new land development?

There are fundemental questions that get avoided in your analysis, the above is an example. If you have an answer to that there are others.

Quote:

I hope that you were "playing" with me, in your last post, ace. I'll worry about you if you really were serious in advising me not to post on this subject, because you say the crisis is over, or never existed.....
Generally, I respond poorly when people dismiss my ananlysis as believing in "fariy tales". I think it is a desperate attempt when a responder has no logical response, and if that is the best they have, I percieve the response as conceeding. I see that you don't conceed, so we continue.

Quote:

....back on Feb, 23....less than 2 months ago.....only 23 of these lenders had imploded.....
True.

Quote:

Now that the private sector will no longer write risky loans.....putting pressure on housing valuations due to increased foreclosures of overvalued homes, purchased by unqualified buyers with no means of maintaining ownership in a climate of falling housing valuations....along comes a GSE....the government....to the rescue. They looked scared ace.....this is not a development in a healthy market, or in a healthy economy. It smells of the government propping up housing valuations because the alternative is reality.....something that you are avoiding acknowledging, ace:
Mortgage lending has tightened but people still get loans. Mortgage lending goes in cycles like most other things.

I assume you saw this:

http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...0416101141.gif

Quote:

American consumers continued to spend steadily in March, as employment growth and wage gains helped to offset the housing slump. Still, the pace of spending growth has slackened since last year.

The Commerce Department reported yesterday that U.S. retail sales rose a seasonally adjusted 0.7% in March, following a revised 0.5% increase in February. The March gain was heavily influenced by a sharp rise in sales at gasoline stations, which reflected the rising cost of crude oil. But even excluding gasoline stations, retail sales rose a moderate 0.4% in March, the same as February.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1176...N=wsjie/6month

I guess "it" really won't start until the chart's trend reverses. we will see what happens next month.

dc_dux 04-18-2007 11:44 AM

Quote:

Interesting - perception vs. reality. At Disney land they have a ride that gives the perception of a free fall, I hope people who ride it don't walk away beleiving it was reality.
ace.....perception is and will always be a factor in the financial and/or investment community.

Could it be that you just dont but much credence in the HMI Index by the housing trade association and one of the largest mortgage lenders because it doesnt support your position?

aceventura3 04-18-2007 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
ace.....perception is and will always be a factor in the financial and/or investment community.

Could it be that you just dont but much credence in the HMI Index by the housing trade association and one of the largest mortgage lenders because it doesnt support your position?

Sorry for not being clear. When there are conflicting indicators, I put value on the indicator reflecting real behavior and no value on the indicator reflecting "feelings" or subjective il defined views.

As you know there are many problems with indexes like the HMI Index. During a market correction an index like this is more reflective of the past than of the future. When you look at the HMI numbers over the past two year it is clear that the index failed to predict the market correction, as the index peaked in October 2005 right at the time the market started to correct. The current number, if I would give meaning to it, would indicate, a market bottom as a contrarian indicator. The number has been in the 30's since July of 2006, the low was September of 2006 at 30.

Another factor is the psyhcology of responding to surveys like HMI. When presented with choices like "good", "poor", or "fair" what do you say after a booming period where making money was easy? Market corrections tend to eleminate the weak links and you end up with a strong core group of business people who really understand the market and are willing to do the real work. People who made the easy money and won't survive will respond accordingly.

This was in the press release also.

Quote:

“Builders are uncertain about the consequences of tightening mortgage lending standards for their home sales down the line, and some are already seeing effects of the subprime shakeout on current sales activity,” said NAHB Chief Economist David Seiders. “The fundamentals of today’s housing market still are relatively strong, including a favorable interest-rate structure, solid growth in employment and household income, lower energy prices and improving affordability in much of the single-family market – due in part to price cuts and non-price sales incentives offered by builders. NAHB continues to forecast modest improvements in home sales during the balance of 2007, although the problems in the mortgage market increase the degree of uncertainty surrounding our baseline (i.e., most probable) forecast.”
http://www.nahb.org/news_details.asp...34&newsID=4258

And the regional number in the Midwest hit a low of 16 in August and September of 2006 and then 15 in November. Can Host explain why all lending and building just did not come to a complete stop in the Midwest? Mmmmm? I did not think so.

aceventura3 05-24-2007 10:26 AM

Host,

Perhaps the market has begun to turn. The data today may be a blip, according to some economist but I think otherwise. To save you the effort, I have included a link with comments from economists who think that data is problematic.

Quote:

Economists Point to Home Data Volatility
May 24, 2007 11:35 a.m.

Sales of single-family homes increased in April, the first gain in four months, rising 16% to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 981,000, the Commerce Department said. The median estimate of 25 economists surveyed by Dow Jones Newswires was a 0.2% increase. New-home sales were 11% lower than in April 2006. The average price of a home last month was $299,100, down from $324,700 in March and $310,300 in April 2006. The median price dropped to $229,100 from $257,600 in March and $257,000 in April 2006. Economists aim to explain the surprise in the data, and point to index volatility.
* * *

We have cautioned that double-digit gains of new-home sales are VERY unreliable monthly data points. (It is mostly due to the way the builders self-report their sales to Commerce)… Whenever new-home sales jump double digits, it usually reflects a mean reversion from the prior (or subsequent) month's reportage. Indeed, over the past 15 years of data, we found that a mean regression followed nearly every double-digit monthly gains. Typically, the subsequent month's data was significantly lowered -- flat to negative in nearly every case. --Ritholtz Research & Analytics
* * *

Nearly all of the strength was in the South, and this depressed prices simply because the South is a lower-priced region. There was a modest decline in the Midwest, and modest strength in the Northeast and West. It remains to be seen if this is a one-month aberration… However, it is clear that indications of a mediocre Spring buying season have been put in some doubt with this report. --Joshua Shapiro, MFR, Inc.
* * *

Only homes priced less than $200,000 had stronger sales in April. The sharp increase in sales will help home builders shed some of the huge inventory of unsold homes and could limit further cuts in new construction… Despite the April sales surge, the median number of months that a new completed home has been on the market jumped to six months, the highest since July 1993... Builders will need to maintain aggressive pricing strategies AND lower production levels to shed these inventories. Any recovery in home-building still lies well in the future. --Nomura Economics Research
* * *

This was the biggest one-month jump in sales since April '93, but the margin of error in these numbers is massive, plus or minus 13%. One big monthly change, in either direction, does not make a trend. Note too that the sales number is at odds with the NAHB index, which fell at a steady pace in each of the three months to May, reversing all its prior gain. -- Ian Shepherdson, High Frequency Economics
* * *

We're at a loss to explain this spike in sales in light of the recent renewed gloominess among home builders… On the other hand, the Mortgage Bankers Association's survey of mortgage applications has been showing surprising recent strength. --Morgan Stanley Research
* * *

Today's data do help confirm that the current production/demand imbalance was not as severe as implied by miserable first-quarter sales figures. We greatly doubt that a new buying surge is under way. While the surge in sales reported in April should be discounted, today's data should add to confidence that some mild progress is being made on inventories at close to the current sales pace. --Steven Wieting, Citigroup Global Markets
* * *

Since this is a very volatile and revision-prone series, it is difficult to read too much into any one month's report. It appears that consumers responded to lower-priced homes in April, resulting in a sharp increase in sales and a decline in the supply of homes. --Bear Stearns U.S. Economics
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1180...ml?mod=Economy

aceventura3 06-04-2007 09:14 AM

Host,

Some may consider this piling on but, I enjoy it. Remember our exchange on the Accredited Home Lenders (LEND), I talked about the intrinsic value of the stock based on certain assumptions and said the following in#35:

Quote:

On LEND - I am not a short-term trader. I just hppened to pick LEND from your list and looked at it in more detail. It is actually not a bad stock. Once it gets through this subprime issue, it will be o.k. Also, your chart doesn't show it but the stock "gapped down in August of '06 on strong volume, it gapped down again in October '06 on strong volume and gapped down again in March. The time to sell was in August or October. Some large institutional investors were clearly getting out at that time and have continued selling. LEND was over-valued, and most likely still has about 20% fat in its price depending on what happens next in the subprime lending market. If it drops to about $13, that would be a good time to buy, assuming about a 6 PE, 6% growth and about an 8% discount rate . The estimated 5 year growth rate is about 10%, but analyst have started making reductions.
Gusess what I saw today?

Quote:

By JONATHAN VUOCOLO
June 4, 2007 11:29 a.m.

Accredited Home Lenders Holding Co., which has been buffeted by problems in the subprime lending sector, agreed to be acquired by Lone Star Fund V L.P. for about $400 million.

Shareholders of the San Diego mortgage company will be paid $15.10 a share, a 9.7% premium to its closing share price of $13.76 Monday, the last business day prior to the announcement of the deal. Accredited shares rose $1.51, or 11%, to $15.27 in premarket trading, but are off 70% from a 52-week high of $51.24 set on June 5, 2006.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1180..._whats_news_us

host 06-04-2007 09:57 AM

ace, if a private equity fund decides to buy a bankrupt company that cannot sell it's loans because of the increasing defaults of the loans it is already responsible for....a bankrupt company that recently obligated itself to a new, $213 million debt that is owed on top of the offer for outstanding shares, a bankrupt company that has delayed the filing of it's financials for more than three months, and of it's annual report for at least that long, a bankrupt company that lost it's auditor ten weeks ago, over "going concern" reservations by that auditor (concerns that the company ran a high risk of not being able to continue operations due to it's financial circumstances)....does that make a convincing case (especially since there has been no public disclosure...this year of Accredited Home's finances) that the subprime and Alt-A mortgage crisis, and the housing valuation decline that it aggravates....is somehow mitigated?
<center><img src="http://attheselevels.com/uploads/PJL051107.PNG"></center><br>

I don't think so....and we'll have to wait and see if this $400 million + $213 million debt to Farallon Capital "purchase" of Accredited Home (stock symbol LEND) actually happens, or not.....Did you read anywhere that Lone Star's offer is not contingent upon due dilligence, since Accredited Home has not filed any financial reports with the SEC for it's 1st qtr or it's annual report?

Quote:

http://www.sdbj.com/industry_article...74&aID2=113576
Posted date: 5/21/2007

Shareholders Trying to Divine the Future Course of Accredited Home Lenders

WebSideStory Changes Name to Visual Sciences

By MIKE ALLEN
San Diego Business Journal Staff

Subprime mortgage lender Accredited Home Lenders continues to stay afloat, but for how long or whether it survives is hard to decipher.

In the meantime, the business is taking a hard line on reducing expenses by cutting 1,300 workers to lower employment to 2,900.

The information was contained in a securities filing May 11 that said Accredited would not file its 10-Q first-quarter financial report on time.

Earlier this year, Accredited said it was unable to file its annual 10-K report by the deadline, and hired a new accounting firm to complete its annual audit.

Rick Howe, Accredited’s spokesman, said he couldn’t reveal where the cuts were made.

As of late February, Accredited said it had 4,200 employees, including 718 at its corporate headquarters in Carmel Mountain Ranch. Accredited also has an operations center in nearby Rancho Bernardo.

Mortgage banks that specialize in subprime lending, or to borrowers with blemished credit histories, have been in upheaval since February, when some announced steep increases in problem loans.

Accredited announced in a year-end, unaudited report in February that 8.26 percent of its portfolio was delinquent by more than 30 days, up from 5.45 percent in delinquencies as of Sept. 30.

In its May 11 filing, Accredited reported problem loans past due more than 30 days, including foreclosed and real estate owned, made up 8.96 percent of its $9.1 billion portfolio as of March 31.

That means $815.4 million in loans are delinquent.

Because the market for selling its loans on the secondary market is so poor, and margins are razor thin, Accredited is making and selling fewer loans. As a result, the company said in the filing that it “anticipates a significant loss in the quarter.”

On the positive side, Accredited said it had more than $350 million in cash as of March 31, compared with $300 million as of March 2006.

A good chunk of that came from a $230 million term loan from Farallon Capital Management, a hedge fund that also owns 8 percent of Accredited’s stock.
Quote:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...bC0&refer=home
Accredited Agrees to $400 Million Buyout by Lone Star (Update3)

By Bradley Keoun

June 4 (Bloomberg) -- Accredited Home Lenders Holding Co., the subprime mortgage lender that raised doubts about its survival, will be sold to private-equity firm Lone Star Funds for about $400 million in cash.

Lone Star Fund V LP agreed to pay $15.10 a share for Accredited, the companies said in a statement. The offer for San Diego-based Accredited is 9.7 percent more than the stock's closing price last week. Lone Star, which oversees $13.3 billion, often targets distressed real estate and finance companies.

The stock tumbled as low as $3.77 in March as defaults on subprime mortgages, made to borrowers with poor payment histories, saddled Accredited with losses and led its bankers to curtail credit for new home loans. Private-equity firms and hedge funds are buying subprime lenders including ResMae Mortgage Corp. at beaten-down prices and plan to sell when the market recovers.

``Of all the subprime lenders that were growing pretty quickly over the last few years, Accredited probably had the best reputation,'' said Bose George, an analyst at KBW Inc. in New York. ``Given that this industry is going to continue in a much smaller form, these guys are probably a good management team to go with.''

The shares rose $1.54, or 11 percent, to $15.30 at 11:36 a.m. New York time in Nasdaq Stock Market trading on speculation a higher bid may emerge.

``This agreement is the best alternative available to protect shareholder value,'' Chief Executive James Konrath said in the statement. ``In Lone Star, we have found a partner who has a record of helping companies like ours successfully address financial and operational challenges.''

Riding the Cycle

Lone Star, founded in 1995 and run by John Grayken, has bought entire companies as well as non-performing loans and real estate, according to its Web site. The Dallas-based fund tries to take advantage of ``the tendency of the banking system to cyclically over-finance and then under-finance the property and other sectors.''

Lone Star has agreed to buy stakes in banks and lenders in South Korea, Japan and Germany, including a $429 million purchase of Japan's Korakuen Finance Co. announced in September. It also agreed last August to pay about $620 million for Lone Star Steakhouse & Saloon Inc., a 260-restaurant chain based in Wichita, Kansas, with no previous tie to the investment company.

Accredited operates nationwide and ranked 14th last year among U.S. subprime lenders with $15.8 billion in loans and a 2.6 percent market share, according to Inside Mortgage Finance, an industry publication.

Back From the Brink

The lender had a market value of more than $1 billion a year ago before the subprime mortgage industry began its swoon. The stock had lost half its value since the start of this year, and in March, the company said its auditing firm, Grant Thornton LLP, wasn't sure Accredited would survive.

The company still hasn't filed its annual report with regulators and last month announced that its first-quarter filing also will be delayed. Grant Thornton quit in April.

Accredited said May 11 it will report a ``significant loss'' in the first quarter because it issued about half as many mortgage loans compared with a year earlier. The company originated $1.9 billion in loans in the quarter, down 47 percent from the same period last year.

The workforce was cut 31 percent to 2,900 in a bid to reduce costs, the company said last month. Accredited employed 3,164 people as of September, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

Bad Credit

Subprime loans are made to borrowers with the worst credit records and typically have the highest default rates.

The subprime mortgage industry faltered as late payments soared to record levels. Overdue residential mortgage loans reached 1.13 percent of the total during the first quarter, the highest level in the 17 years insured lenders have reported such data, said a May 31 report by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp.

The sale to Lone Star means Accredited will avoid the fate of rivals such as New Century Financial Corp., the biggest independent U.S. subprime home lender last year, which went bankrupt in April and now is being liquidated. At least 50 mortgage companies have halted operations, gone bankrupt or sought buyers since the start of 2006.

Hedge funds have been among the buyers, with Citadel Investment Group planning to seek approval from a bankruptcy judge tomorrow for its $180 million acquisition of ResMae.

In March, trying to stave off a cash shortfall, Accredited took out a $200 million loan from the hedge fund Farallon Capital Management LLC. The loan was secured by Accredited's assets at 13 percent interest and guaranteed the hedge fund a 7 percent premium, or $14 million, if the loan was repaid within the first year.

Bear, Stearns & Co., Friedman, Billings, Ramsey Group Inc. and Houlihan Lokey Howard & Zukin advised Accredited, today's statement said. Piper Jaffray & Co. represented Lone Star.

Last Updated: June 4, 2007 11:53 EDT
There is no good news for the housing market, or for those who finance it:
http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/

aceventura3 06-04-2007 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host
ace, if a private equity fund decides to buy a bankrupt company that cannot sell it's loans because of the increasing defaults of the loans it is already responsible for....a bankrupt company that recently obligated itself to a new, $213 million debt that is owed on top of the offer for outstanding shares, a bankrupt company that has delayed the filing of it's financials for more than three months, and of it's annual report for at least that long, a bankrupt company that lost it's auditor ten weeks ago, over "going concern" reservations by that auditor (concerns that the company ran a high risk of not being able to continue operations due to it's financial circumstances)....does that make a convincing case (especially since there has been no public disclosure...this year of Accredited Home's finances) that the subprime and Alt-A mortgage crisis, and the housing valuation decline that it aggravates....is somehow mitigated?

I don't think so....and we'll have to wait and see if this $400 million + $213 million debt to Farallon Capital "purchase" of Accredited Home (stock symbol LEND) actually happens, or not.....Did you read anywhere that Lone Star's offer is not contingent upon due dilligence, since Accredited Home has not filed any financial reports with the SEC for it's 1st qtr or it's annual report?



There is no good news for the housing market, or for those who finance it:
http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/

You are correct that the deal may never close, time will tell. But if the past financials prove to be close to accurate and if the current situation was born out of panic, Lone Star is getting a fair deal based on intrinsic value. I point this out to support the point that when speculation is taken out of prices the market will begin to respond based on fundementals. This is going to be true in the realestate market.

People who bought LEND at $13 based on fundemental analysis (establishing a floor for the stock price) and today sell at $15, made about 15% in about 60 days. And those large institional investors who were selling when the stock was in the $40's, most likely did equally well on an annualized basis. Those reacting to headlines got burned.

Good to see you back on this topic.

host 06-20-2007 09:44 PM

To put this article in perspective:
1.) It comes at the height of the annual residential real estate "selling" season, while US stock market indexes, DJIA and S&P 500 are posting record highs.

2.) It comes as the subprime CDO purchase price is at a new low, less than 60 cents per dollar of face value of the bonds made up of subrprime mortgage loans, packaged in tranches ($10 million "chunks") to be sold to clueless pension funds: ABX-HE-BBB- 07-1
http://www.markit.com/information/affiliations/abx

3.) It comes during a time when the leading packager and marketer of these "junk mortgage loans", Bear Stearns becomes a victim of it's own bullshit:

Quote:

http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t...cid=1117389741
<b>Merrill Kicks Off Auction for Assets in Bear Stearns Fund</b>

.....At stake is this: if the assets — securities and bonds backed by subprime mortgages that can be difficult to value — are sold at prices well below where they are currently valued, the reverberations across Wall Street would be strong. Not only would Merrill be forced to post losses on its holdings, but other banks, hedge funds and investors owning similar securities would have to mark down the value of those holdings to new, lower prices.

Started just last year, the Bear Stearns hedge fund was hit by a combination of bad bets on bonds backed by subprime mortgages as well as high levels of leverage. Investors originally put $600 million into the fund and another $6 billion was borrowed from the Wall Street banks......

Quote:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...qZQ&refer=home
Rate Rise Pushes Housing, Economy to `Blood Bath' (Update2)

By Kathleen M. Howley

June 20 (Bloomberg) -- The worst is yet to come for the U.S. housing market.

The jump in 30-year mortgage rates by more than a half a percentage point to 6.74 percent in the past five weeks is putting a crimp on borrowers with the best credit just as a crackdown in subprime lending standards limits the pool of qualified buyers. The national median home price is poised for its first annual decline since the Great Depression, and the supply of unsold homes is at a record 4.2 million, the National Association of Realtors reported.

``It's a blood bath,'' said Mark Kiesel, executive vice president of Newport Beach, California-based Pacific Investment Management Co., the manager of $668 billion in bond funds. ``We're talking about a two- to three-year downturn that will take a whole host of characters with it, from job creation to consumer confidence. Eventually it will take the stock market and corporate profit.''

Confidence among U.S. homebuilders fell in June to the lowest since February 1991, according to the National Association of Home Builders/Wells Fargo index released this week. Housing starts declined in May for the first time in four months, the Commerce Department reported yesterday. New-home sales will decline 33 percent from 2005's peak to the end of this year, according to the Realtors' group, exceeding the 25 percent three-year drop in 1991 that helped spark a recession.

`Economic Recession'

``It's not just a housing recession anymore, it looks more and more like an economic recession,'' said Nouriel Roubini, a Clinton administration Treasury Department director and economic adviser who now runs Roubini Global Economics in New York.

Goldman Sachs Group Inc., the world's biggest securities firm, and Bear Stearns Cos., the largest underwriter of mortgage-backed securities in 2006, said last week that rising foreclosures reduced their earnings. Bear Stearns said profit fell 10 percent, and Goldman reported a 1 percent gain, the smallest in three quarters. Both firms are based in New York.

The investment banks, insurance companies, pension funds and asset-management firms that hold some of the U.S.'s $6 trillion of mortgage-backed securities have yet to suffer the full effect of subprime loans gone bad, said David Viniar, Goldman's chief financial officer. Subprime mortgages, given to people with bad or limited credit histories, account for about $800 billion of the market.

``I continue to believe that we haven't seen the bottom in the subprime market,'' Viniar said on a June 14 conference call with reporters. ``There will be more pain felt by people as that works through the system.''

He didn't return calls this week seeking additional comments.

`Drag on the Economy'

``This has been a drag on the economy,'' Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said at a press briefing today after he testified in front of the House Financial Services Committee. <b>``I do believe that we are at or near the bottom.''</b>

Homebuilding stocks are down 20 percent this year after falling 20 percent in 2006, according to the Standard & Poor's Supercomposite Homebuilding Index of 16 companies. Before last year, the index had gained sixfold in five years.

``There isn't a recovery about to happen,'' said Ara Hovnanian, chief executive officer of Hovnanian Enterprises Inc., the Red Bank, New Jersey-based homebuilder. The company's stock tumbled 42 percent this year through yesterday.

The share of people taking out all types of adjustable-rate home loans averaged 29 percent during the past three years, compared with the 17 percent average of the prior three years, according to data compiled by Mclean, Virginia-based Freddie Mac.

Higher fixed mortgage rates and stricter lending standards mean some of those borrowers won't be able to refinance into fixed- rate loans. Many of them have seen their home's value drop even as their interest rates adjust higher.

`Millions of People'

``When all these people see their mortgage payment and it's up 40 or 50 percent, they're going to say, `We can't stay in this house,''' Pimco's Kiesel said. ``And there are millions of people in this situation.''

The average U.S. rate for a 30-year fixed mortgage was 6.74 percent last week, up from 6.15 percent at the beginning of May, according to Freddie Mac, the second-largest source of money for home loans. That adds $116 a month to the payment for a $300,000 loan and about $42,000 over the life of the mortgage.

The recent increase in mortgage rates is the biggest spike since 2004. The change means buyers can afford 8 percent less house than they could five weeks ago, Kiesel said.

``Prices are going lower,''
he said.   click to show 

This "wealth destruction" process is playing out even more rapidly than I thought that it would when I started this thread. If you purchased your home recently, you are trapped in it, most likely, for a long, long time. New home construction is down 24 percent, vs. a year ago, and I predict that we are only in the beginning of a decline that will take down the entire US economy, and maybe your job and your financial soundness.

It won't go down without a fight...there will be much manipulation from the major brokerages, banks, and from GSE's like Fannie and Freddie, and from the Fed itself. I predict that treasury secretary and former Goldman Sachs chairman Hank Paulsen will be telling us that he "sees the bottom", until he is replaced on January 20, 2009. I predict that the 2008 election will be about the economy, and that we will live through ten years of misery and economic dislocation not witnessed since the 1930's. What is coming ought to begin to scare the shit out of you, but denial is a pretty powerful drug.

If this forum is still here, I think that I'll have plenty of bad news to post on here for a long time......and it didn't have to be this way...these criminals in financial services and in the government just couldn't resist. Most of "the rest of us" have a good portion of our net worth tied up in real estate, and this is a process to separate us from our net worth. The bottom 90 percent of us own just 32 percent of the entirety of assets in the US.....watch who those assets flow away from. in this process, and who they flow to.....it should be easy to figure out what the 2005 Bankruptcy "reform" act was intended to strangle. Let us watch to see who wakes up around here and who continues in blissful slumber. I predict that America is going to get to see the consequences of vote suppression since the 2000 election, as well as the consequences of the projection of the political influence of the christian right.

aceventura3 06-21-2007 07:05 AM

One of the basic questions to ask when analyzing the economic impact of current events is who are the winners and who are the losers from an economic point of view. Short of major panic, when hedge funds fail the biggest losers are often the biggest risk takers. Buying a home has never been an overly risky investment. I guess some see the worst is yet to come, others don't.

From today's WSJ.

Quote:

This drama is being watched very closely on Wall Street for several reasons. One is the tangle that so many big Wall Street players now find themselves in over the hedge funds trades. Another is the scale of the hedge funds; as recently as March 31, they held more than $20 billion in investments in securities and derivatives, not to mention billions more in bets that certain markets would fall.

The problems are also a lesson in the perils of using borrowed money to make trades; one of Bear's funds was highly leveraged. Moreover, investors and traders are uncertain about what Bear's complex holdings are worth. If it can't fetch much for them in the market, others might have to mark down the value of their own holdings.

"There's fear of further liquidations," said Jeffrey Gundlach, chief investment officer at the TCW Group.

It all comes just as about $250 billion in junk bonds and corporate loans are slated to be sold to investors, much of it tied to the corporate buyout boom. The debt is expected to be issued in the next four to eight weeks. If worries about subprime woes spread, and investors suddenly become risk averse, it could lead to troubles for these debt sales.

Yesterday, a closely watched derivative index tied to junk-rated corporate loans fell for an eighth straight day, to a new low of 99.05, down 0.65 from a day ago, according to data from Goldman Sachs Group Inc. The index, called the LCDX, was launched just a month ago and dropped below 100 earlier this week for the first time.

Still, investors didn't appear to be anywhere near panic. The 10-year Treasury note, which investors typically flock to buy in times of trouble, fell instead, pushing its yield, which moves opposite its price, higher.

Gold, another favorite destination when markets are distressed, fell $4.60 to $656.10 an ounce. Volatility expectations in the stock and bond markets, derived from options prices, rose but didn't shoot higher like they usually do in panic situations.

"The world is nothing if not resilient," said Brown Brothers Harriman portfolio manager Richard Koss. "It's amazing how the market keeps on taking shots and keeps absorbing them."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1182..._whats_news_us

The folks at the Fed have been setting policy to slow the growth of the economy to fight inflation. They think inflation is now in their target range and have an optimistic outlook.

Quote:

Core inflation rose in early 2006, mostly as companies passed higher energy costs through to consumers in the form of higher prices for goods and services, and as rising home prices prompted more people to rent apartments, driving up "owner's-equivalent rent," a proxy for the cost of homeownership.
[Comfort Zone]

The increase in housing costs has since slowed as the rising supply of vacant homes restrains rents. The recent rebound in energy prices isn't expected to add much new pressure to core prices because they haven't exceeded last year's peaks.

But the Fed does still see risks of higher inflation from the lack of spare capacity in the economy, which means higher demand is more likely to translate into higher prices and wages. Despite a year of slow growth, the unemployment rate, at 4.5%, remains near a six-year low. Global growth is robust, boosting demand for U.S. exports.

In this environment, the Fed is still likely to express some concern that its forecast for inflation to moderate, dropping below 2% by the end of 2008, might go off track.

Despite indications the nation's economy has bounced back from a first-quarter slowdown, the Fed for now is sticking to a forecast of modest growth this year, principally because the housing market is taking longer to hit bottom than the central bank previously expected. Indeed, the recent rise in mortgage rates modestly boosts the risks to the housing market.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1182...lead_story_lsc

The size of our economy and its complexity says to me that the subprime issue will be but a small and temporary blip on the economic radar screen.

{added}

Here is more interesting info to put the "housing recession" into perspective (keep in mind that people gotta live somewhere)

Quote:

Building permits, which are required in most localities before construction can begin, rose last month. But much of the gain was a result of permits for apartment buildings. Demand for apartments has been growing as rising interest rates and tighter lending standards have encouraged more families to rent a home instead of purchase one.

Building permits overall increased 3% in May, but single-family home permits fell 1.8%, while permits for apartments gained 17%.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1182...lead_story_lsc

So we see building permits for apartments up 17%, I am sure some can rationalize why that is insignificant, I just bring it up to see how it is rationalized.

joshbaumgartner 06-21-2007 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
So we see building permits for apartments up 17%, I am sure some can rationalize why that is insignificant, I just bring it up to see how it is rationalized.

Not insignificant I don't think. If people can't afford to buy a house, they still have to live somewhere. More people are also choosing to buy an apartment (marketed as a condo in a lot of places) as opposed to a house. Does this indicate that more Americans are finding homes beyond their reach? Or are they just choosing to 'take less space'? I have single friends who own three bedroom suburban homes. Nothing against if that's what they want, but it does seem a wee bit inefficient in the big picture. If more people like this are finding a condo a better choice, I don't know that it is a bad thing. On the other hand, if families are being squeezed and simply can't afford to live in a home that fits their family anymore, then that probably is a bad thing.

aceventura3 06-21-2007 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshbaumgartner
Not insignificant I don't think. If people can't afford to buy a house, they still have to live somewhere. More people are also choosing to buy an apartment (marketed as a condo in a lot of places) as opposed to a house. Does this indicate that more Americans are finding homes beyond their reach? Or are they just choosing to 'take less space'? I have single friends who own three bedroom suburban homes. Nothing against if that's what they want, but it does seem a wee bit inefficient in the big picture. If more people like this are finding a condo a better choice, I don't know that it is a bad thing. On the other hand, if families are being squeezed and simply can't afford to live in a home that fits their family anymore, then that probably is a bad thing.

Given our population growth at some point the trend of people building and living in bigger and bigger homes will reverse. In places with highly dense populations people mange o.k. with significantly less space than the average person in this country.

Home ownership rates in this country are at all time highs even at current price levels. We have had an extended period of low and stable interest rates which has help a great deal. There are no indicators pointing to significant increases in interest rates or indicating that interest rates will become unstable.

It is interesting, but the subprime mortagage issue actually helped many marginally qualified people to buy a first home. Perhaps the net affect will be that many average hard working people who never owned a home before benefited at the cost of the "fat cats" on Wall St.

What is not being reported is the fact that the vast majority of these subprime loans are not in default and will never be in default. Some of these people will stabalize their credit, refinance with a "prime" loan, gain equity, and share in the American Dream of home ownership. To me that is a good thing.:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

aceventura3 07-05-2007 10:00 AM

Host,

Contrary to your original premise that the housing slump would create a domino affect on the economy, it appears that first the single family housing slump will be in-part offset by an increase in multi-unit residential construction. And it appears that the commercial real estate market is red hot as indicated by rising rents and lower vacancy rates. Perhaps some of the Miami condos will be converted, or more likely - rising commercial rents will lead to more commercial development. Smart money seems to be able to stay one step ahead of the headlines.

Quote:

Meanwhile, demand for office space has been growing. Net absorption -- a measure of the space taken up by commercial tenants -- increased markedly during the latest quarter, a sign that the economy is producing more office jobs, says Sam Chandan, chief economist for Reis. Nationwide, the office-vacancy rate, at 12.7%, is the lowest since the third quarter of 2001.
Quote:

Nationwide, effective rents on office properties -- the amount tenants pay after concessions -- jumped an average of 3.1% during this year's second quarter, up from gains of 2.8% in the first quarter and 2.1% in the year-earlier period, according to a report scheduled for release today by real-estate research firm Reis Inc.

That was the sharpest quarterly increase since the third quarter of 2000, before the combined effects of the technology-stock bust and the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks caused office vacancies to rise and rental rates to fall.
[Hot Markets]

The red-hot commercial sector offers a sharp contrast with the housing market, which has been slumping for the past two years or so.

In some cities, today's higher rents reflect strong economic fundamentals. In New York and Washington, for example, fatter corporate profits are spurring companies to step up hiring, fueling demand for additional space at a time when supply is tight. Vacancy rates in some of these markets have fallen to single digits, in part because high land prices and strict zoning requirements have kept a lid on construction of new office buildings.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1183..._whats_news_us

Host, please let me know when you concede that your premise is wrong.

host 07-26-2007 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
Host,

Contrary to your original premise that the housing slump would create a domino affect on the economy, it appears that first the single family housing slump will be in-part offset by an increase in multi-unit residential construction. And it appears that the commercial real estate market is red hot as indicated by rising rents and lower vacancy rates. Perhaps some of the Miami condos will be converted, or more likely - rising commercial rents will lead to more commercial development. Smart money seems to be able to stay one step ahead of the headlines.





http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1183..._whats_news_us

Host, please let me know when you concede that your premise is wrong.

It's just the "2nd inning..." and the homebuilder's index is down 33 percent, and Countrywide....touted as a "prime" lender with little exposure to "sub-prime" and Alt-A is following suit....finally. There is no rise...yet...in unemployment, yet Countrywide is impacted by increased mortgage payment delinquencies...it admitted earlier this week. Wait until unemployment...and it will....ramps up...
Quote:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070726/economy.html?.v=21
AP
New Home Sales Down Substantially
Thursday July 26, 10:56 am ET
By Martin Crutsinger, AP Economics Writer
Sales of New Homes Plunge by the Largest Amount in 5 Months

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Sales of new homes fell in June by the largest amount in five months as the housing industry continued to struggle with its worst downturn in 16 years. The median home price also fell.....
<center><img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/x/xhb"><p><br><img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/c/cfc"></center>

Quote:

http://www.minyanville.com/articles/...459/from/yahoo

Five Things You Need to Know: Credit Crunch; Existing Home Sales; All Real Estate is Local; Irony Alert; What Can We Speculate on Next!


What you need to know (and what it means)!

Kevin Depew
Jul 25, 2007 12:05 pm

Minyanville's daily Five Things You Need to Know to stay ahead of the pack on Wall Street:

1. Credit Crunch

Two important stories this morning point to why subprime may not be contained, and why it's relevant to just about everything else.

* First, Chrysler (DCX) said this morning it is scrapping a planned sale of $12 billion of loans for its automotive business.
* Chrysler was to use the financing to help fund its buyout by Cerberus Capital Management.
* The company still intends to move ahead with a plan to raise $8 billion for its financing division... probably because the company has no choice.
* Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co.'s banks, led by Deutsche Bank (DB) , failed to sell $10 billion of senior loans to fund the leveraged buyout of Alliance Boots, according to Bloomberg.
* What does this mean?
* In both cases, the financing plans were scrapped due to a lack of buyers.
* They simply couldn't find anyone willing to offer credit for the terms they were seeking.
* What do you call a situation where investment capital is increasingly difficult to obtain as banks and investors become more risk averse, perhaps wary of lending money to corporations and firms and consequently driving up the cost of debt products for borrowers?
* Oh yeah, that's called a credit crunch.

February 19, 2007: BusinessWeek. "It's a Low, Low, Low, Low-Rate World."

It certainly was.

<img src="http://images.businessweek.com/mz/07/08/0708covdc.gif">

2. Existing Home Sales

Existing Home Sales fell for a fourth straight month in June, perhaps the least surprising news making the rounds this morning.

* Existing Home Sales declined 3.8% in June, to an annual rate of 5.75 million, the slowest pace since November 2002, according to the National Association of Realtors.
* Expectations were for a decline of 2.1%, according to Bloomberg.
* On the bright side, inventories fell 4.2%, the first decline in existing home inventories this year.
* At the current pace of sales, that's about 8.8 months' worth of inventory, the same as May.
* Also, the median price of an existing home actually rose 0.3% in June, the first year-over-year increase in 11 months.


3. All Real Estate is Local

In discussing today's Existing Home Sales report, National Association of Realtors President Pat V. Combs, helpfully noted that, “Consumers should avoid making decisions based on what they hear about the national market because all real estate is local."

* That's right.
* Don't make your local decisions based on national news reports.
* So when a national news service, such as Associated Press, reports somethng like "Countrywide (CFC) Squeezed by Falling Home Prices," people shouldn't listen to that kind of sensationalism and hysteria.
* When a national news outlet such as CNNMoney reports, "Subprime Woes Spread to Junk Bonds," relax and pop a cold one... it's got nothing to do with you.
* However, when the Patriot Ledger of South Boston reports, "Real estate market continues drop: Home sales, prices fall again in June," that's different.
* When the San Mateo County Times notes, "The housing slowdown is hitting the Central Valley particularly hard," we can begin to get a little concerned.
* Yep, when the Durango Herald out in Colorado starts reporting things like, "Number of Foreclosures in Area Jumps," Katie bar the door!
* We know what you're thinking. What about the Twin Cities Daily Planet out in Minnesota? Now if the Twin Cities Daily Planet says "Foreclosures Have Made Problem Properties More Problematic," well, the problems may indeed run deeper than we feared.
* And God forbid the Frederick News Post in Maryland should report that "Housing Market Problems Linger"!
* Or the Pocono Record in Pennsylvania! If the Pocono Record says "Home Sales in Monroe Drop 29%" we may, in fact, be screwed!
* And then there's Texas. Everything is bigger in Texas, as the Fort Worth Star Telegram made clear when they reported, "Tarrant County Foreclosures Hit New High"!
* Et Tu Florida? Say it ain't so, Daytona Beach News, "Foreclosures Continue to Soar."
* Yes, all real estate is indeed local.


4. Irony Alert

Minyan Tripp pointed out a bizarre bit of irony related to the Minyanville Mr. T and the Price of Gold video on Yahoo Finance this morning.

One of the sponsors of the video is Countrywide Home Loans, advertising a no-cost refinancing option. Get Cash Now!

We love it when a plan comes together.

<img src="https://image.minyanville.com/assets/FCK/Image/mrt.jpg">


5. What Can We Speculate on Next!

With a solid four years of stock returns under our belts and the S&P 500 up more than 70% since January 2003, we were sitting here the other day racking our brains for something more entertaining to speculate on.

Stocks, commodities, bonds, TIPs, options, preferreds, REITs, closed-end funds, CDOs, CMOs, agency bonds, emerging markets, emerging market bonds, currencies, this stuff is just too easy. It's like shooting fish in a barrel, which just happens to be a game made by a company called Fish Shooter Gaming that we've made a killing on by selling their fixed income securities and buying credit protection, leaving us with something similar to a call option on the underlying stock which we were able to pick up at a very low price before delta hedging our exposure to the underlying shares - but that's a different story.

Bottom line: What's left to speculate on? Baseball cards? Please. We said spec-u-late. Real, live basebal players? Eh. We're talking home runs, not singles. Art? Bo-ring! What about the average temperature in Rome over a specified time series? Hmmm. Can we get that bet in euro-denominated certificates? Apparently so.

* Merrill Lynch (MER) is launching a two-year euro-denominated certificate that pays a return based on the average temperature in Rome, Italy as measured over the course of a year from mid-September.
* If the average temperature is over 16.38 degrees Celsius, the certificate will pay interest of up to 16 percent, with the full payout achieved if the average reaches 17.38 degrees, according to Reuters.
* Data for the current season, from mid-September 2006 to the present day and then forecast through to mid-September this year, show an average temperature of 17.2 degrees Celsius.
* If over the course of the two years, the average temperature does not rise above 16.38 degrees, then investors do not receive a coupon payment, but receive 101 percent of their principal at maturity, the article explained.
* This deal brings the product to a new audience, including smaller and retail clients, who have not been able to access the market before, Jens Boening, head of EMEA weather derivatives structuring at Merrill said.
....and ace....the retrenchment and it's associated damage will be in inverse proportion to the excess....the folly that preceded it....the last comment in the preceding quote box was really about an actual ML "offering":
Quote:

http://www.ml.com/index.asp?id=7695_...12_80055_80747
Merrill Lynch Launches First Temperature-Linked Certificate
Contact us about this press release

LONDON, July 24, 2007 — Merrill Lynch today announced the launch of a new two-year euro-denominated certificate that offers an annual return based upon the average temperature in Roma-Ciampino, Italy. The investment product is 100 percent principal-protected and offers a temperature-contingent coupon of up to 16 percent annually. The certificate will be issued as part of the Merrill Lynch Certificate Programme and will be publicly offered into the Italian region via an appointed distributor.....

aceventura3 07-26-2007 08:19 AM

Good to see your continued interest in the subject, especially during a week of sell-offs in the equities market after a long and major run up.

There is some good news in the housing sector, but most economists are dismissing the good news. For example median prices of existing homes sales were up last month compared to the previous month and compared to last year. They say it could be because of a skewed mix of sales of higher valued homes. Inventories of existing homes are also down. They say this is offset by lower sales and people delaying putting their homes on the market. I think we are getting to the point of capitulation. The psychology of the market suggests that when there is nothing but bad news being reported, the worst has past.

As a side note - Normally I would think you would be suspect of information coming from corporate America. If I were CEO of a company like Countrywide, what do you think I would do, given current market conditions?

Here is what I would do. I would write-off and adjust as much as I could using the housing crisis as my reason (not violating the law, just being more aggressive in managing my balance sheet), so that a few years down the road I get my financial statements to look a bit better than they would have normally. I take my "hits" today, for a bigger payoff tomorrow. Perhaps now is the time to start dollar cost averaging back into homebuilder stocks. What do you think? Still believe there is room for shorting?

host 07-26-2007 08:52 AM

Can you verify whether the reported, declining existing home inventories include the residences that are on the auction block because of foreclosures, or, in inventories like the one Countrywide is trying to sell?

It is my understanding that foreclosures, which are rapidly rising, are not included in MLS stats, and they are not part of home builders' unsold inventories....and the forced sales, the majority sold via foreclosure auctions, will, if not now, be sold "at any price". These are the sales, even if home builders cease all new building for the next five years....and they won't, they're still building, for example, in the area around where I live....hundreds of new units....that will weigh on the market and will negatively impact average selling prices.....count on it!


ace....Countrywide would have a difficult time "moving" the 10,200 housing units, valued at over $2 billion, that it now finds itself "owning", if it did not make it's rising inventory, public. Since it is public information, folks analyze the data and the trend:

http://countrywide-foreclosures.blog...203-homes.html

http://www.countrywide.com/purchase/f_reo.asp

...it's a train wreck and it will feed on itself.....and it will take the entire US economy with it, as the rapid decline in cheap credit seems to indicate.

This is a year old, ace....but it holds true, even more so, today...with the first time buyer unable to obtain a "liar loan" or a "time bomb" option ARM loan because of the sub-prime implosion, and the halt of the trend of rapidly rising appraised "value"....because liquidity can no longer be "injected" into the RE market by first time buyers who only qualified for loans that only "worked" if the valuations reliably went "up and up and up".....lower priced home sales diminish, with the "high end" the last to fall, because buyers of high priced homes have alternative methods of financing unavailable to first time and other assetless, former buyers.

If fewer homes priced at the "low end" sell, and "high end" sales do not decline proportionally....sure, average selling prices will remain firm, or even rise a bit, but that statistic does not support an argument that the market is better than it seems at first glance. It actually means, IMO, that it is worse than it seems, because when first time buyers are not in the market, it will not be sustained by high end buyers....hence the dramatic decline in total numbers of housing units sold.....the largest decline in 16 years:

Quote:

http://www.oftwominds.com/blogjuly06/home-sales2.html

On the same topic, correspondent S.B. shared the expertise of one of his contacts, retired global business exec-turned San Diego-area realtor <a href="http://realtytimes.com/rtmcrcond/California~San_Diego~bobcasagrand">Bob Casagrand. S.B.</a> had these comments on why median prices could appear to be rising even as sales slump:

Whenever I have a (real estate) question I cannot get answered, I turn to Bob.

So I asked him, Why is the median rising, when each individual home is selling for less? Actually, most San Diego homes are back at 2004 prices.

Bob told me that the under $400K buyer is squeezed out due to rising prices and higher interest rates. The high end is holding up a little better, because the ripple effect has not yet made it to the high end, and the low end has weakened MORE than the high end.

Last year, the +$1million home was 8.5% of sales. This year it is 10%. This is skewing UP the distribution of homes sold, raising the median, although each home, including the high end homes, are selling for 10-15% less today than last year.

We are selling proportionally MORE of the expensive homes, and the median tells us only about the MIX of homes sold.

It does not tell us about the value of each home. The $1.1 mil house was worth $1.5 mil in 2004, so it has also gone down in value.

If you want to know how each house has held up, you have to use the Case-Shiller index, or the OFHEO housing price index. Both track the SAME house over time, giving us the change in valuation of each house instead of the change in the MIX of homes sold....

aceventura3 07-26-2007 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host
Can you verify whether the reported, declining existing home inventories include the residences that are on the auction block because of foreclosures, or, in inventories like the one Countrywide is trying to sell?

The data I saw was in a WSJ article. I assume existing home sales data includes all existing home for sale.

Quote:

Existing home sales continued on their dismal, downward trajectory, according to numbers from National Association of Realtors. Home sales fell a more-than-expected 3.8% in June to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 5.75 million units, the lowest level since November 2002, Bear Stearns analysts noted. There were some numbers that didn't look quite so bleak. For instance the median home price crept up 0.3% from June 2006 to $230,100. The median home price was $222,700 in May this year. But economists didn't find much solace in the price rise, saying the median price might be skewed by strength in sales of higher-priced homes. Another apparent positive was housing inventory, which shrank 4.2% during June to 4.2 million. But, even these numbers couldn't buck up some economists. "This probably does not signify a meaningful step toward stability. Instead, it could indicate the discouragement of potential sellers who have withdrawn homes from the market in the face of price weakness and higher mortgage rates," wrote Nomura researchers. Likewise unimpressed were Morgan Stanley economists, saying in a note that "even with a significant decline in the supply of homes available for sale, the drop in the sales pace was big enough to keep the months' supply of unsold homes at a fifteen-year high."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118536626835477490.html


Quote:

It is my understanding that foreclosures, which are rapidly rising, are not included in MLS stats, and they are not part of home builders' unsold inventories....and the forced sales, the majority sold via foreclosure auctions, will, if not now, be sold "at any price". These are the sales, even if home builders cease all new building for the next five years....and they won't, they're still building, for example, in the area around where I live....hundreds of new units....that will weigh on the market and will negatively impact average selling prices.....count on it!
Most of the headlines focus on percentage change either year over year or month to month. Given the abnormal run up in prices and building due to speculation, I don't consider it odd to have an abnormal correction. However, at some point the percentage change will be calculated on a smaller and smaller base. When that happens the percentages will take on a totally different perspective, while the fundamentals may not change at all. This happens in reverse too, causing exaggerated reactions.


Quote:

ace....Countrywide would have a difficult time "moving" the 10,200 housing units, valued at over $2 billion, that it now finds itself "owning", if it did not make it's rising inventory, public. Since it is public information, folks analyze the data and the trend:

http://countrywide-foreclosures.blog...203-homes.html

http://www.countrywide.com/purchase/f_reo.asp

...it's a train wreck and it will feed on itself.....and it will take the entire US economy with it, as the rapid decline in cheap credit seems to indicate.
The Countrywide CEO stated that he thinks by 2009 thing will be better. He is not in a panic. Here are his words to a question during conference call after his earnings release:

Quote:

Paul Miller - Friedman, Billings, Ramsey - Analyst
Thank you very much. Angelo, you have been through a lot of these different cycles out there. This doesn't seem -- this seems to be becoming a lot stronger and a lot harder than a lot of people thought. When do you think this ends? I know you have been quoted out there you think this -- maybe it is an '09 event. But what's some of the things we have to see? We have to -- does the CDO market have to come back? Or does liquidity have to come back? Or do the inventories in the housing market have to go away? What are some of the things that we need to look for?
Angelo Mozilo - Countrywide Financial Corporation -Chairman, CEO
I think the first thing is that the inventory in the house supply has to reverse itself. Because as I view it, and I have been through a lot of these things in 54 years, although the market is a lot bigger now, so the problems are a lot bigger. But as I try to walk through what happened here, and could a lot of this have been foreseen? [These] tend to try to reflect on your own activities, and should we have known, could we have seen it? But as I do reflect on it, and I do a lot, that nobody saw this coming. S&P and Moody's didn't see it coming, but they simply just
downgrade bonds, they don't take hits. Bear Stearns certainly didn't see it coming. Merrill Lynch didn't see it coming. Nobody saw this coming. So it was the deterioration in real estate values that was the base cause of all of this. We had none of these problems as real
estate values were going up. So it is an oversimplification, admittedly, but clearly the deterioration in real estate values -- as a result of the affordability issue and an oversupply. So I think one turning point is the supply of housing. Because I think once that turns around, the psychology of the country changes. Because now the borrowers -- potential buyers simply say, look, I will just wait, because I will be able to buy the house cheaper tomorrow than I can today. That psychology has to change; and the only thing that is going to change it is supply. The other -- just so I can reflect on this as you people think of your questions. The other is that the Fed knowingly -- knowing that well over 50, 60, 70% of the loans made in 2003, '04, '05, and '06 were indexed variable-rate loans, indexed one way or another to the Fed funds rate, increased the Fed funds rate 17 times. 17 consecutive times, with most of the product out there
being variable-rate product. You know, and you never knew when they were going to stop increasing. But the fact they did that had a material impact on affordability. As people went to refinance or people went to buy. Major, major impact. So for a Fed Governor to say that the lending industry had this coming is unbelievable when the Fed, to a great extent, was a contributing -- unknowing contributing factor to this. Plus they came in with the Fed, with the joint [AC] guidelines which restricted the amount of -- the type of loans we could make, in an environment where we had limited liquidity to start with. The other was the rapid increase in real estate values that we have faced over the last few years caused people to stretch themselves and their financial resources in order to get into a home. There is a high desire for people to own a home. The mortgage product then was developed to try to help them get into the home, which was known as exotic products of various kinds. But there was a secondary market for it. There was plenty of liquidity for that. So the primary market responded to that. I say also the traditional underwriting standards, which John McMurray alluded to, were altered to use more technology and more credit scoring as a judgmental factor in whether a loan could qualify or not, versus the traditional documentation.
And you had on top of that, which again John related to, was speculation. So I just want to share those thoughts with you. Now getting back to your base question, as I say 2009 because my experience is that it just takes a long time to change, to turn a battleship around. This is a huge battleship and it is headed in the wrong direction. So first, we have to get it to slow down, then stop, and then turn. I think that that -- this is just a gut feeling, based upon what I have seen in the past and the size of this
market -- is that it's going to take 2007, the balance of this year, to get this thing to look like it is slowing down; 2008 to get it to slow down and stop; and 2009 to head in the other direction. My feeling is that by that time, you will have reduced competition, very substantial pent-up demand, because of all of the people who have been closed out of housing, probably lower interest rates. I do think that this ultimately has to have an effect on the economy. I just can't believe that this economy is totally insulated from housing. And will be 2009, 2010, 2011, I look to as sort of like 2003, 2004, 2005. Great years for the industry.
http://online.wsj.com/documents/tran...c-20070724.pdf

He says he didn't see it coming is B.S. or he was blinded by greed. He gets paid to see this stuff coming.

Quote:

This is a year old, ace....but it holds true, even more so, today...with the first time buyer unable to obtain a "liar loan" or a "time bomb" option ARM loan because of the sub-prime implosion, and the halt of the trend of rapidly rising appraised "value"....because liquidity can no longer be "injected" into the RE market by first time buyers who only qualified for loans that only "worked" if the valuations reliably went "up and up and up".....lower priced home sales diminish, with the "high end" the last to fall, because buyers of high priced homes have alternative methods of financing unavailable to first time and other assetless, former buyers.

If fewer homes priced at the "low end" sell, and "high end" sales do not decline proportionally....sure, average selling prices will remain firm, or even rise a bit, but that statistic does not support an argument that the market is better than it seems at first glance. It actually means, IMO, that it is worse than it seems, because when first time buyers are not in the market, it will not be sustained by high end buyers....hence the dramatic decline in total numbers of housing units sold.....the largest decline in 16 years:
I will look up the data later, but the overwhelming majority of loans are not in default and won't be. Even in the subprime category this is true.

What happened to the Bear Stern's hedge fund was an over reliance on leverage and taking on excessive risk. The same can be said for some homebuilders who used expensive options to control land. Now that the demand has lessened some of these options are worthless. Mortgage companies relaxed their loan underwriting standards because of the boom, and now it is coming back to hurt them. The funny thing is, that none of that has anything to due with the fundamentals of the real estate market and the intrinsic value of real estate. What we really have is a panic created by "Wall Street".

host 07-26-2007 11:20 AM

DOW (DJIA) down 366 pts. right now..... foreclosed homes to be sold do not appear in MLS inventory stats....so, with foreclosures at multi-year highs, and rising....the "picture" is much worse, going forward, than this month's inventory of unsold homes "reduction", indicates.....

Today's decline of the DOW (just 30 stocks...hugely overvalued to distort the true, weakened total state of the US stock market.....) is the largest, on a number of total points, probably in at least 5 years.

Bear Stearns stock is in a dramatic....like Country Wide Home Mortgage...
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/3m/b/bsc">

"Things" are progressing as I predicted they would, when I started this thread.
I don't think many here will believe, if they look back at this post, next November, (2008) how poor the state of the economy, at the time they are voting for the next US president, compared to the way that it is, now.

The DOW and the Nasdaq and S&P indexes are suffering damage today that will seem slight, compared to how far all three have declined, 15 months from now. Oil is $77.00 per bbl today, it will be somewhat lower, with the US fully in recession, next year at this time.....

aceventura3 07-26-2007 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host
DOW (DJIA) down 366 pts. right now..... foreclosed homes to be sold do not appear in MLS inventory stats....so, with foreclosures at multi-year highs, and rising....the "picture" is much worse, going forward, than this month's inventory of unsold homes "reduction", indicates.....

Today's decline of the DOW (just 30 stocks...hugely overvalued to distort the true, weakened total state of the US stock market.....) is the largest, on a number of total points, probably in at least 5 years.

Bear Stearns stock is in a dramatic....like Country Wide Home Mortgage...
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/3m/b/bsc">

"Things" are progressing as I predicted they would, when I started this thread.
I don't think many here will believe, if they look back at this post, next November, (2008) how poor the state of the economy, at the time they are voting for the next US president, compared to the way that it is, now.

The DOW and the Nasdaq and S&P indexes are suffering damage today that will seem slight, compared to how far all three have declined, 15 months from now. Oil is $77.00 per bbl today, it will be somewhat lower, with the US fully in recession, next year at this time.....

The DOW was 11,125 on7/26/06
The DOW was 12,474 on 1/3/07
Today the DOW will close around 13,441

The S&P 500 was 1270 on 7/26/06
1416 on 1/3/07
and will close today around 1472

It is possible the market will decline further and it is possible that economic growth will stop long enough for the US to be considered in a recession. However, if that happens perhaps the FED will cease its slow growth anti-inflation posture and allow interest rates to fall. If interest rates fall there will be less pressure on ARM's and more people able to qualify for loans. If that happens demand will pick up - - then its off to the races again. The Countrywide CEO thinks that '09, '10 and '11 will be like '03, '04 and '05. I actually hope he is wrong, and that the real estate market in particular reverts back to its historical mean growth rate.

Elphaba 08-19-2007 03:42 PM

Host, have I mentioned lately that you are once again at least six months ahead of the current news?

I hope the fish are biting. :)

mixedmedia 08-19-2007 03:58 PM

My mother has been saying this for more than a year, too, and no one listened to her either, lol.

aceventura3 08-20-2007 08:10 AM

I have underestimated the markets reaction to the sub-prime catastrophe, but Host overestimates what it impact will be. I still hold the belief that most of what we are experiencing is an over-reaction but that reaction is real. The impacts outside of "sub-prime" is mostly on the margins, the underlying economy is strong. Currently the Federal Reserve is injecting liquidity into the market, many would argue that the Fed should have taken more aggressive action sooner, including lowering the discount rate. Two weeks ago, the Fed official position was to fight inflation and their concern over the economy growing too fast.

dc_dux 08-20-2007 08:12 AM

Most people could care less about econometric measures. They judge the economy by their pocketbook and the judgment is generally that they are not better off then they were 4 or 8 years ago...millions of people in debt, and overextended, living from paycheck to paycheck.

Thats why host is right that it will definitely be a top issue in the 08 campaign.

aceventura3 08-20-2007 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
Most people could care less about econometric measures. They judge the economy by their pocketbook and the judgment is generally that they are not better off then they were 4 or 8 years ago. Thats why host is right that it will definitely be a top issue in the 08 campaign.

By what measure do you and others define "better off" or worse off?

dc_dux 08-20-2007 08:18 AM

That is a personal judgment that people make based on their own lifestyle, spending habits, debt, cost of living, ability to save, etc., not on national measures or indices.

I cant answer that for others, but I can say without doubt, I am reasonably well off or at least comfortable, but certainly not better off as a result of the Bush economic era. My income has not risen commensurate with my cost of living and my 401K has not risen as much as it did in the 90s. Those are my measures.

My conclusion regarding how others feel about the economy is based on polls, which measure voter perceptions better than economic indices.

Here is a recent one from the American Research Group, in which Bush's approval rating on handing the economy is lower than his abysmal overall approval rating:
Overall, 23% of Americans say that they approve of the way George W. Bush is handling the economy, 73% disapprove, and 4% are undecided. Among registered voters, 23% approve and 72% disapprove of the way Bush is handling the economy.

A total of 12% of Americans say that the national economy is getting better, 28% say it is staying the same, and 58% say the national economy is getting worse.

When it comes to rating their household financial situations, 68% of Americans give an excellent, very good, or good rating and 31% give a bad, very bad, or terrible rating. (this appears somewhat at odds with the other responses)

A total of 15% of Americans say they think the financial situations in their households are getting better, 47% say staying the same, and 37% say getting worse.
http://www.americanresearchgroup.com/economy/

Bill O'Rights 08-20-2007 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
Most people could care less about econometric measures. They judge the economy by their pocketbook and the judgment is generally that they are not better off then they were 4 or 8 years ago.

Agreed 100% The only economic indicators that I care about is the steady rise in the price of a gallon of milk vs. the stagnation of my wages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
By what measure do you and others define "better off" or worse off?

For me, at least, it's the fact that I have to work longer to buy the same goods. As the cost of living goes up, my income does not. This reduces the amount of "disposable" income, and savings. Also, my retirement savings (ie, my 401K) is no longer producing at the rate that it once was. That means that my retirement may have to be postponed. These are just a couple of "Average Joe" economic indicators.

aceventura3 08-20-2007 12:31 PM

How do you assign responsibility for our national economic conditions and in turn your individual economic condition?

National economic policies have long tails. It may take years and in some cases decades before the full impact of national economic policy changes are felt.

For example a minimum wage increase, when will individuals feel the real impact? In July the minimum wage increased $.70/hour. The worker making less than $5.85 will feel an impact on his next pay check, that may be two weeks. Assuming a $.70 increase over 80 hours the individual will have $56 gross and less say they net 90% after taxes or $50.40. After 4 weeks or 160 hours he has $100.80, with the extra money the employee will have an immediate positive impact and if we multiply that by the number of minimum wage workers (also many above minimum would get salary increases), we should see an increase in consumption. If legislation is in place for future increases going beyond a current administration, who gets the credit of these pops in increased consumer spending? In California for example the minimum wage is already $7.50 and going to $8.00 in January. who gets the credit or blame for that?

But wages paid are not in a vacuum. Businesses that employ minimum wage workers faces increased costs. With those increased costs, and typically a longer-term reaction. Over time the business will absorb the increased costs, lowering profits, lowering possible investments in growth, lowering taxes paid, etc. Or the business may increase prices or a combination of both. So first we have the short-term pop in consumer spending, then we have the malaise of reduced business spending or we have offsetting inflation or a combination. Let's say this happens about 12 months after the minimum wage increase. Again, crossing administrations who gets the credit and who gets the blame? What happens if business reduces the numbers of employees hired? What if there is an impact on seasonal hires, that impact may take over a year before it is felt.

So now we have inflation or lower business profitability. What happens next? How long does it take? What happens with other economic policies or laws, perhaps issues planned decades ago. Let's look at say Roth IRA's, let's say now more people are using Roth's than ever, let's say many people have taken advantage to converting conventional IRA's to Roth's and paying taxes to do so. Guess what? The Government gets a pop in tax collections in current terms, but will get a decline in taxes decades down the road when people start taking out their Roth IRA earnings tax free. Then the government increases tax rates. Who gets the credit, who gets the blame?

As you may see, we can go on with this for a long time with real policies that will have real impact on the economy over the short term and over the long term. My question stays the same who get the credit and who the blame?

While you guys may attribute being better off or worse off to the President currently in office I don't. Our economy is far to complicated, being better off or worse off is a personal responsibility.

Everyone has an equal opportunity to know the "rules". If they are winning or loosing the game, depends on decisions made by individuals - short of our government going to extremes one way or the other.

dc_dux 08-20-2007 02:11 PM

All of that may be true (or not, and I would say not), but most Americans dont think that way when they are sitting around the kitchen table wondering if they can afford a new car, or how they will pay for their kids college, or what would happen if one spouse looses their job when over the last 6 years, they have been unable to save or worse, are just scraping by making ends meet.

They hear Bush talk about how great the economy is and they hear their Republican members of Congress say how the Bush tax cuts helped most Americans..and they shake their heads (15% from the poll above say their personal/household financial situation is getter better).

Thats why the economy is always a top issue come election time. It contributed to the Republican losses in 06 (according to many exit polls) and it will be a top issue in 08 regardless of whether your economic analysis is right or wrong.


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