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1992 Redux: Will "it's the economy, stupid", Be The Big Campaign Issue?
This was "the news" on thursday:
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<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/1y/n/new"> It is not as if "the news" was unknowable: comments in reaction to the 02/04/07 New Century Financial conference call: Quote:
The fraud at <b>NEW</b>, the second largest US subprime lender, and the sudden, sharp decline in it's stock price, is not an isolated incident. About 25 other sizeable sub-prime lenders have gone out of business or been "absorbed" by other companies, just in the last 10 weeks: Quote:
I'd also like to discuss what to do about it, both on a personal finance level, and on a macro level.... |
Host, I find this very interesting from a professional perspective since residential construction currently accounts for about 45% of my income. While it's certainly true that the housing bubble has burst in certain places, what's true about politics - that it's all local - is true about real estate. There are current housing booms in 5 major cities that I deal with on a daily basis that aren't showing any signs of slowing down appreciably. Las Vegas is the most obvious one, especially for condos on the Strip.
That said, I think that you've drawn too narrow a window for a look at the fiscal health of the country. While I agree that the economy could be heading for a downturn, I disagree that the lending standards and housing boom are the cause. If we do see a recession, I think that it would be a minor one at best but the timing would be absolutely crucial for the 2008 election season. We've already seen how foreign regulations can affect our stock market, but the trends that I see in the industrial manufacturing arena don't really lend themselves towards a major recession around the corner. Sales on big-ticket consumer products are going up, and that's my most accurate assessment of national economic health. People are buying more RV's than they did last year, and that's been an excellent barometer for me for the past 10 years. |
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That said... I am especially surprised at your much more optimistic opinion than the one I'm currently holding. I view real estate as a "bottom up", demand situation. These sub-prime lenders made it possible for what would have been the "bag holders" of entry level houses, condos, and studio apartments, to unload them at inflated prices to the sub-prime borrowers of New Century, et al. IMO, the new lending "standards", announced to include eliminating zero down payment mortgages to applicants with FICO scores below 700, will kill demand from the "bottom up" and, in much of the country, the "top" of the market has been dead for some time, now: On friday, I initiated a small "short" position in this one. Icahn's position aside, this is a BK candidate, IMO, and much sooner than the longs in the stock would think: http://news.google.com/nwshp?ie=UTF-...n&tab=wn&q=wci Carl Icahn has initiated a fight to take over the board of WCI. That is reason enough for me to protect my stock position by buying put options at a $20 strike price, a few months out....but everyone holding this stock will increasingly feel the need to sell it, I believe. WCI has ceased building new towers, has tried to sell it's land holding and options, is stuck with more cancellations than closings, and is technically in default on it's loan convenants. It's not "just in Florida", either...... http://www.wcicommunities.com/ On the conference call, the other day, the management admitted that they have been unable to sell their remaining 29 units at their NJ tower, Watermark: http://www.wcicommunities.com/defaul...ID=79&vid=1000 Quote:
yet....but this week, the DOW and the S&P behaved as I have expected, and waited for them to behave.... The way that I think this "works" is that the financial markets always end up surprising the maximum number of investors....and it has to be that way. Politicians will always be followers of the trend, not the leaders. Just as with the war in Iraq, and in the GWOT.....unfortunately, the democrat who takes the lead on describing the coming economic decline, and offers a plan to cope with it's effects, will be accused of not "supporting the US consumer".....of "talking the economy down"....etc. So....either I'm wrong.....or you are. I actually think that your optimism is a "tell" that indicates that there will be much greater damage from the suddenness and the depth of the economic downturn that I am expecting. On March 13, 2000, the Nasdaq 2000 stock index crossed the 5000 mark, up from a low of 2800, in October, 1999. The Nasdaq ended up retreating to near 1000, by early 2003. In March 2003, when the DOW had retreated to 7200, I bought a couple of call options on that index. I sold them way too early, at a profit.....the DOW rose to 12,800 recently.....I think that was the high for the DOW for the next few years.... Sept. 1929 Dow = 393 July 1932 Dow = 41 ....and 393 was not surpassed again until....1953. Not trying to scare you....I am an amateur, I don't have a crystal ball. I'm better at picking market bottoms than tops. If I can share what I'm observing, and my experience with a few interested folks, maybe it'll help.... |
Host, I can't even claim an amateur knowledge of the stockmarket, but I think it is relevent to your discussion that Freddie Mac is refusing to further participate in the subprime lending that grew out of the "bubble."
If the surviving group of subprime lenders are no longer able to bundle and resell to Freddie using their "creative" financing, they too will be risking their own solvency. I find that preferable to citizen funded bailouts any day. This might be a useful link: FreddieMac Will the economy be a central issue in 2008? Greenspan assisted in the stock drop this week by predicting a likely recession by the end of this year. His successor is now doing the 'happy happy' tour to settle down the market investors. It's the middle class that has faired poorly over the last several years and I expect economic issues to be in the forefront soon. |
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The Las Vegas strip proximity is unique because it is a "one of a kind" locale with a unique economic base that receives more international financial investment, interest, and tourist/gambling revenue than it's closest US competitor, New York City, does. http://www.lvcva.com/getfile/Histori....pdf?fileID=80 Las Vegas 2006 visitors: 38,914,889 Visitor dollar contribution: $39.4 billion Tourist spending rose nearly 25 percent in Las Vegas since 2001, from $31.9 billion. The population of Las Vegas "proper", is still under 600,000, yet revenue from tourism is more than 50 percent above the revenue received by New York, a city with 12 times the Las Vegas population. Even with all that money flowing in, the Businessweek forecast for the Las Vegas real estate market as a whole, is dismal for 2007: Quote:
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New Century Financial and the other large subprime lending firms were national in their business niche, and as they fail, they won't be replaced. It doesn't matter much if the buying and selling is all local, if the financing of mortgages and the lending guidelines are from a narrow, uniform, national source and structure. More failures and foreclosures in the more numerous declining local markets will restrict lending, and even appraisal activity in the as yet unaffected locales.... Quote:
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We are headed for a major flame-out in the housing market, and much of what's already been posted above clearly explains why.
But to get back to the original question: Iraq has been such a major catastrophe for the United States that it will be the major issue in the next election. I don't think that economics can trump it. |
Host, thanks for the well-thought out responses. While I certainly agree that there are a whole bunch of markets either in the process of or long overdue for a bubble burst, I am again going to point out that all real estate is local.
First, let me define my terms. In my world, a "bubble burst" means that housing stock is either stagnant or depreciating in value. With that in mind, I think that the very first sign that a specific market is in trouble is an inability to sell new units (almost always condos) in smaller metropolitan areas. Your North Bergen, NJ example is a prime example. It is outside of NYC and doesn't have the traditional drawing power of Manhatten. To elaborate on my "local" thoughts, the flip side is the Las Vegas Strip, which is something that I'm involved in at work literally every day. The new Trump Tower that's going up there sold out in 2 weeks, which is a record. Every other condo/mixed use tower that's broken ground there is at least 85% sold (from what I've heard). I will caution you that I'm working from information provided by my clients, and it's not always accurate. I saw your stats on Las Vegas, and honestly I've seen them before. I even know why they say what they say. However, I still think that you're looking at too large of a picture. The reason that I specifically said "The Las Vegas Strip" in my original post was that I meant that exact location - not the rest of Las Vegas. I think that I can successfully argue that The Strip is bubble-proof. There are always going to be people looking to buy into those buildings barring any major recession. The rest of Las Vegas is a group of individual neighborhoods - and that's what I mean by "local". While it's painfully obvious that national trends can affect local ones (lending rates being cheif among those), the fact is that there are and always will be certain neighborhoods that will always have high housing prices that will appreciate. The Gold Coast in Chicago or South Beach in Miami immediately spring to mind as other examples. Then there's the troubling case of Southern California, which has had a housing stock shortage for the past 20 years. There literally aren't enough homes for people who want to buy them. The big problem is that there's a lot of substandard housing being built there (and several other venues), but that's not going to slow the market down. However, I do want to make that point, since I have a feeling that it's going to be very relavent in the next 4 years, especially for non-California construction (oddly enough). I make this point since I know that as soon as the economy turns there will be a huge wave of construction defect lawsuit filed around the country for substandard construction. |
I happen to own property in Vegas, as do my parents. We invested there in the late 90s as costs for property where "cheap" compared to other parts of the nation. My $60k condo is now $180k outpacing my NYC coop by leaps and bounds.
As a landlord I rent out the condo at a reasonable profit below what market rate is since IMO the market rate is quite absurd. I had never raised rent and make a modest $100 profit each month, I had to reduce my rent last year by $75 to attract a new renter. Even if I rent it at a break even point I know that in the end I still come out ahead something that other investors are not as interested in. That is my history of LV, so even if I live in NYC, I pay close attention to the LV housing market. A few of the high rises that were touted looking for investors did not ever break ground one comes to mind is the Ivana Trump building. The housing market in LV has definitely cooled but it had to, a place cannot lay claim to biggest growth every year. This doesn't apply to just the housing market but any industry, sector, stock, or company. As for the substandard construction, that has happened in Las Vegas as well, many HomeOwners Associations suing builders for later phases that were not up to par with original first phase buildings. |
The economy only looks "good" from certain broad measures. The fact is, people on the middle-to-lower end of the income scale are worse off than they've been in decades--and that's the vast majority of Americans.
That said, while I think the economy will be a major issue in '08, it won't be the #1 issue. That spot is reserved for US international relations issues, headlined by the Iraq quagmire. |
we're missing a third option, 'it's the government, stupid!'
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http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...95&postcount=1 Quote:
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Here is the single biggest problem with the "sky is falling" argument about the bursting housing bubble.
People gotta live somewhere! The US population is still growing! There ain't no new land to be found within our boarders! Therefore, long-term demand will go up. Most of the time housing demand will go up faster than supply and prices will go up. Until some high level economic guru addresses that argument, panic over short-term market volitility is an excercise in trivia on a macro level. On the flip side local markets are a different animal governed by thier own market issues. |
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Here are some of the top ten subprime lenders, today....the ones that haven't filed for bankruptcy...yet...or been absorbed by large banks for a pittance of their former high flying stock prices. Pension funds and mutual funds held significant positions in these companies, and the equity....is gone for good. That is not volatility....it is permanent wealth destruction: <img src="http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/n/new"> <img src="http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/t?s=NEW"> <br> <img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/n/nfi"> <img src="http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/t?s=NFI"><br> <img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/n/lend"> <img src="http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/t?s=LEND"><br> <img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/n/fmt"> <img src="http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/t?s=FMT"> <b>Three of four of the stocks of these subprime lenders dropped dramatically today. They lent to subprime mortgage applicants across the US, there will be no replacements for these national landers, borrowing qualifications will be tightened, and there will be significantly fewer first time buyers entering the home market. In the now ending, "bubble era:, anyone who wanted to own a home could simply fill out paperwork with little or no verification of it's accuracy, and borrow the entire purchase price and even the closing costs. Only interest had to be paid on these mortgage loans....at under 5 percent annually in many cases, for the first few years. Millions of folks who are obligated to make monthly payments on these mortgages, won't when they find themselves owing ten or twenty percent more than they borrowed, because of real estate price declines, and/or they won't qualify when their short term, subprime "buyer's mortgage", must be refinanced with a new mortgage at a new, lower home appraisal value, and with terms that include a higher interest rate and added principle payments. Thus it is not difficult to anticipate that there is little foundation to support ace's "no problem here.....", opinion.</b> |
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What is really happening, worse case? People who would ordinarily rent, now buy. If they are forced to sell, they go back to renting. Same housing supply, same housing demand. Only change long-term is the name on the title. Quote:
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I have not done research on the above companies, however I would bet things like PE, PEG, price to book value, debt to equity, are out of line with traditional financial institutions. If true, the stocks are due for a correction. This is healthy for the overall market, it gets rid of speculators. If conservative investors are heavily in these stocks, shame on them. |
While I agree with you about the need for housing stock being an ever-hungry monster, I think that you're missing host's point. He's using mortgage lending as a barameter of the overall economy. I'm the one guilty on focusing solely on housing stock and pricing, which while relavent to the overall picture, resides outside his arguement.
Also, a rise in foreclosed properties is a major harbinger of economic problems, and it's rarely so simple that a family just "goes back to renting" since foreclosure usually means a rash of other monetary problems. The foreclosure is usually just the icing on the cake. |
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Here is a good one from Ms. Clinton. Foreign ownership of our national debt is bad and can hold the US hostage. Here is the fundemental flaw. If you or a nation loans money with no security, I.e. buying US Treasury Notes/bonds, you want to get paid back. So the reciever of the loan - holds the giver, hostage, i.e. China wants the US to repay the debt in dollars with as much value as possible. China has an interest in a stable dollar, a stable US economy, and low inflation. Debt is not equity. Quote:
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The economy is going great right now!! 2006 and 2007 are slated to be the best in years in terms of jobs and job growth for new graduates. The Fortune 500 are fighting heavily over new grads right now. Employers are offering more incentives and bonuses than ever. The future looks bright.
Didn't the stock market grow like 2000 something points in the past 4-years before last weeks temporary lows? The real estate market will always ebb and flow, just like anything else. Up and down, up and down. Now and then, now and then. If houses are too expensive or rates too high, then just rent and wait for it to come down. I have missed many "booms" (dot com, stock markets, real estate) but I never panic cause I know I will get my opportunity soon enough. Deferring gratification, patience, making wise decisions will pay off in the end (in my opinion). I never had a chance to capitalize on the low interest rates of the past few years, nor did I get in on the tech boom stocks. but hey, more opportunities will arise. By the time I will be ready to buy a house, rates will either fall again, or due to the previous frenzy, there will be lots of awesome foreclosures to be had at fantastic prices. |
Here is a definition of "subprime" - Any loan issued below average underwriting standards.
Therefore in the basket of all loans 49% of the loans issued are subprime or below average, by definition and this will always be true. |
The subprime market is a fairly risky one. What tends to happen is that the lenders make the loans because they can get fees for it. Then they package the loans and sell them if they can, while keeping a servicing contract. That way they reduce risk while still making money.
People go to subprime lenders precisely because they can't get conventional mortgage loans. After a certain period of time of making high payments, which is what subprime loans usually require (they charge higher rates and higher fees), the borrower falls behind. This housing market has been hot long enough that the cumulative impact of years of high payments is starting to bite. And no, it's not a good sign. That does not mean, however, that the economy is about to tank. All it means is that one sector will retrench. |
so wait: i'm confused. much of this debate seems to turn on the question of how to develop a sense of the economy in general, and within that on the question of which indices one chooses to look at, how you weight them, etc.
anyone care to lay out the assumptions behind their views? i have been reading the thread but am not sure i have much to say about it as i am not particularly committed to any of the ways of reading economic data that are presented here, mostly because i can't get a sense of their relative weight--only that different folk attribute different weights and on that basis refute the weightings of others. |
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This is completely incorrect and does not begin to realistically address what is going on in "subprime" lending. There are a huge number of no-doc mortgages that have been handed out in the past 2 years. They are essentially ALL sub-prime and at high risk of default. They may have lowered the average creditworthiness of the pool of all borrowers, ,but the fact that a lot of garbage loans were added at the low end of creditworthiness does not mean that the definition of sub-prime gets revised downward. Put another way, if banks stopped lending to "low risk" borrowers tomorrow, then ALL the loans after that would be subprime, not just the worst 49%. |
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It is true some firms have taken higher risks due to the recent real-estate boom. these firms will and have paid a price for the risk. However, the overall market is not supported by subprime loans. The overall market is supported by homeowners who have owned their homes for a long time and have equity. These people are not subject to short-term trends. Even if these people have re-financed or have used equity loans they still have net positive equity and would not be forced to sell on a short-term dip in the market. I stand by my first post in this thread. The sub-prime definition was my way of illustrating how the term only has meaning in the "eye of the beholder". Given the worse case - what has happend in the subprime market? Some people who were renters became homeowners. Some people who were doing little or no investing bought some investment property. Given that - if they loose - their credit score goes down and the bank owns some real-estate that will be sold at below market prices. When that happens strong investors and strong buyers will benefit. Like the old saying - the rich will get richer. So again, I ask for the economic guru who can explain what is going to happen to net demand for housing and how long-term, the market goes down. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors and a means to sell newspapers and TV ads. P.S. Also - if you don't own stock in a subprime lender, didn't get a subprime loan and lost your ability to pay, don't own property in high risk areas what going to happen to you if the subprime market blows up - pretty much nothing. But you say there will be a chain reaction - but thats where you or the economic guru needs to make the link with long-term demand and supply and a short-term market correction. No one has done it yet, other than to say the sky is falling. Last time I checked Chicken Little is not a trained economist. |
In terms of the answer to the question at the top: I am friendly with a number of bankruptcy lawyers and other bankruptcy-related consultants. Their business is slow and they tell me they can't see anything on the horizon that will change that.
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Remember when:
Y2K was going to ruin the economy? Highly leveraged hedge funds were going to ruin the economy? Highly margined stock day traders were going to ruin the economy? The weakening dollar compared to the Yen was going to ruin the economy? The Reagan supply side tax cuts were going to ruin the economy? Three dollar gas? Two dollar gas? One dollar gas? All were going to ruin the economy? I am sure there are many others. All items getting major headlines at the time with experts saying the end to normal economic long-term growth was near an end. The real problem facing this nation economically is social security and medicare. Those two issues truely need to be addressed, but ironically those are the issues that mostly get ignored. |
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Also, start looking into the rules of foreclosure purchasing and you'll find that a) most of the best foreclosures never hit the streets and get sold to those inside the market first, b) must be purchased sight unseen, so you cannot even look inside and walk the premises and see structural faults/issues, c) must pay cash up front since most foreclosures don't accept financing. Lastly, even if prices become "good" keep in mind interest rates fluctuate and also affect how much "house" you can buy. As far as Grads are concerned, most grads are heavily debt laden in order to get that education. While yes, they can be deferred for some time, they do still have to be paid back and can never be defaulted on. Some people I know have educational debt in excess of $50k. This does not include their credit card debt for their "lifestyle" that they lived in college which could also be an additionaly $20k. All that gets factored in when qualifying for a mortgage, again affecting how much "house" you can buy. |
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My only question is - why didn't you tell me about this stock 4 years ago? Did you see it is up$1.32 this morning or over 8%. You should start a contrarian investment fund.:thumbsup: :thumbsup: |
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Many new graduates do not want to sacrifice feeling that they got the new job and they deserve it after 5-6 years in college scrimping to get by. |
Ah, but this is where choices and decision-making matter. Defer gratification, make good, sound consumer choices, and make sacrifices. All the things you list are a consequence of choice. College debt is very manageable, again, it is about good budgeting and smart lifestyle choices.
Your colleagues, they choose to commute, the choose to live in LA, SF or New York. Accumulating $20K in college for "lifestyle" is highly irresponsible and will not illicit any sympathy from me. They made a choice, they have to live with it. Saving for 20% down is relatively simple if people would just exercise some planning and discipline. Throughout college I budgeted my finances. I spent $25 a week on groceries by buying produce in season and on sale, clipped coupons and made 98% of my mreals at home and bagged the lunch. I quit smoking, saving myself $1000 a year. I didn't own a cell phone, cable TV or a car or car insurance, saving thousands a year on these expenses. In fact, I was savvy enough to budget my needs and have enough money left over to travel extensively throughout college. I live in LA. I just graduated and got a job. Now I'm going to buy a car. A nice, simple starter car (Honda Civic). I'm also moving and getting an apartment. Not a house. Not yet. Why? Cause I can't afford it just yet. I know what sacrifices I will had to make to get here and what sacrifices I will have to make to get where I want to be. I also have student loans to pay off and maybe $300 Iracked up in credit card debt I accumulated last month but I will pay off this month. Student loans should not be a problem as long as you have a monthly income. I stand by my contention that the economy is hot hot hot and the outlook is good. Bottom line: Spend less than you earn. Live within your means. |
loquitur, when other large speculative bubbles "burst", everything was fine....new high prices attained, surpassed.....up and up and up.....fine, until it wasn't. Depending on the size of the bubble, and on the length of time that it lasted, and on the amount of money and the number of speculators it attracted,
...then the longer it declined, and the lower prices dropped from the "all time" highs. Here are two examples, and it is amazing how both of these contemporary bubbles unwound so relentlessly, to such dramatic lows....with hopeful buying into the decline, all the way down......and the disappointment of those who bought into the long series of false recoveries, and then watch the new, lower lows, until the final lows.....to date....were put in. Both played out, in price decline and in duration, witn uncanny similarity to the 1929 Dow index crash. That index declined from 393 to 41, in a little less than 3 years, and the recovery from the 393 high to a new high, took 24 years. Compare the 1929 unwinding to these price movements: Nasdaq 2000 stock index <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EIXIC&a=02&b=01&c=2000&d=02&e=15&f=2000&g=d">10-Mar-00 open 5,060.34 high 5,132.52</a> <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EIXIC&a=03&b=01&c=2000&d=03&e=15&f=2000&g=d">14-Apr-00 open 3,597.44 high 3,615.64</a> <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EIXIC&a=11&b=01&c=2000&d=11&e=15&f=2000&g=d">15-Dec-00 open 2,688.66 high 2,697.93</a> <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EIXIC&a=02&b=01&c=2001&d=02&e=15&f=2001&g=d">15-Mar-01 open 2,023.79 high 2,030.73</a> <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EIXIC&a=03&b=01&c=2001&d=03&e=15&f=2001&g=d">4-Apr-01 open 1,668.37 high 1,698.21</a> <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EIXIC&a=09&b=01&c=2002&d=09&e=15&f=2002&g=d">10-Oct-02 1,116.76 1,165.83 1,108.49</a> <b>....and today, almost 7 years to the day that the Nasdaq was at 5132, it is still below half that level.....</b> Nikkei 225 stock index <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN225&a=11&b=15&c=1989&d=11&e=31&f=1989&g=d">29-Dec-89 open 38,913.00 high 38,957.00</a> <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN225&a=01&b=1&c=1990&d=01&e=28&f=1990&g=d">27-Feb-90 open 33,346.00 high 34,001.00 low 32,793.00</a> <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN225&a=02&b=1&c=1990&d=02&e=31&f=1990&g=d">30-Mar-90 open 31,002.00 high 31,002.00 low 29,828.00</a> <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN225&a=07&b=1&c=1990&d=07&e=31&f=1990&g=d">24-Aug-90 open 23,731.00 high 24,485.00 low 23,547.00</a> <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN225&a=09&b=1&c=1990&d=09&e=15&f=1990&g=d">2-Oct-90 open 20,222.00 high 22,899.00</a> <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN225&a=02&b=1&c=1992&d=03&e=30&f=1992&g=d">10-Apr-92 open 16,622.00 high 17,851.00 low 16,622.00</a> <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN225&a=03&b=15&c=2003&d=03&e=30&f=2003&g=d">28-Apr-03 open 7,679.11 high 7,685.36 low 7,603.76</a> <img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/my/_/_n225"> <b>It's 17 years after the Nikkei 225 put in it's 38,957 high, and 4 years since it reached it's latest "new low" of 7603. I've shown you the effects of the three most prominent bubbles having to do with financial speculation of the general public, of the 20th century. All of my posts are filled with linked facts that support my opinions. Those who disagree with me have provided no citations to support their opinions, and indeed, don't even seem willing to consider that what I am saying is a possibility, let alone that it is actually taking place now. Given what we know about the duration, scope and the size of the residential real estate "run up", the amount of "easy", low qualification and low interest financing that it has needed to "make it happen", and to sustain it, and the fact tha almost anyone who wanted to obtain a mortgage and buy a housing unit, now has one, now is in "the market", who will the "holders" sell to, now? If you agree that the increase in housing prices that spurred the building of huge numbers of new units, and that the overall economy benefited from the jobs that the housing construction, real estate marketing, and mortgage brokering, from the manufacture and sale of building materials and home furnishing, and from the extraction and spending of the increasing home equity of those who owned home during the price run up....wealth extraction by homeowners that reached $800 billion,</b> <img src="http://www.safehaven.com/images/mauldin/6603_g.gif"> ....in a decline like the one that we are seeing now.....in price, in the number of houses sold, and in the amount of wealth extraction that homeowners are able to get from their home values into their wallets...to be spent on second homes, home improvements, vacations, restaurant meals, consumer goods, new cars....etc., and in the decline (disappearance) of the profits of builders, realtors, mortgage brokers, and "flippers", <b>what can you say to support your opinion that the disappearance of all of this former stimulus won't drag down the economy in the same way that, when it was there to stimulate the economy, promoted it's growth? What will take the place of consumers taking equity from their homes in an amount that exceeded, at it's high, over $200 billion, every three months, in an environment of increasing inflation and chronically flat income levels?></b> ....and my question does not even consider the negative impact of mortgage defaults and foreclosures, and the BK of home builders and the financial institutions that lent them, and the homebuyers, the money to build and buy the housing units..... I followed this guy's writings, for the last four years, (below) on the farce of the fed lowering interest rates to one percent, in an attempt to remove the negative effect of the wealth destruction that would have been a consequence of the 2000 to 2003 crash of the Nasdaq and Dow stock indexes. He went so far as to detail a "character", a mortgage broker who worked for NEW CENTURY FINANCIAL, and he detailed the ridiculousness of New Century lending money to anyone....regardless of income, or even resident status in the US....to buy houses at inflated prices, which further inflated the housing prices, which allowed the houses to turn into an ATM, into "free money" for their owners.....money to buy whatever they wanted with.....and his first post is in Feb., 2003, and his last was yesterday, when the stock price of "NEW", finally imploded, and the NY Times wrote an article about an actual former NEW CENTURY broker, who seems describe the reality of what "Mark" had commented on for the past four years: Quote:
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The March 5, 2005 NY Times article described by "wndysrf" in the preceding quote box: (Consider that the articles' description of New Century's stock price was written before the stock, trading under the synbol "NEW", closed at $4.56 per share in todays' trading.) Quote:
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My "simplistic" or "black and white" response is that there is intrinsic value and there is speculative value. During periods of market euphoria speculative value increases and gets out of control, however intrisic value stays grounded in the fundementals of the market. Personally, I always try to stay focused on intrinsic value. I think smart money or wise investor gurus like Warren Buffet, or the late Benjamin Graham also stay focused on intrinsic value. Speculative value comes and goes. when a market crashes it normally is not a crash but more of a sudden decrease in speculative value still supported by intrisic values. If intrisic values suddenly declined, in my book that would be a crash, if this happens it doesn't last long because smart money comes in for the easy gains when the intrisic value goes back to equilibrium.
My point is that real-estate has intrisic value. That value will increase over time and has historically increased over time. Speculative value is currently being taken out of the market. This is good. Smart money wants this to happen. Smart money sees this as healthy, you don't. All the citations, quotes, stats in the world won't prove the above - you either get it or you don't. Those who don't get it will generally always be on the wrong side of the trend. Six months from now when we look at the stats we will see that today we have already hit and past the real-estate bottom. You can say you heard it here first. That is my market call. What's yours? How about a wager. If you are correct and I am wrong I will donate $100 to your favorite charity, and you do it if the opposit is true. |
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If you turn out to be correct about the direction of the economy in the next six months, I promise to post the dollar figure of the losses from making the "wrong bets" in the stock market. I also do not want to make a wager with you until you can post something similar to this Feb. 20 Forbes article, with facts to counter reasons for a downturn. Quote:
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are in the past now....priced in....and federal spending deficits that exceeded $500 billion per year, but are now, in your own belief, declining significantly? How will the decline in housing sales and in the prices offered for houses, avoid "feeding on itself", just as it did in the run up phase? How will increasing homeowner mortgage defaults not result in more foreclosures, auctioned into a housing market already suffering from lower demand and lower prices? How will a consumer who grew accustomed, every 18 months, to refinancing his credit card balances and car loan into a new mortgage refi, while taking cash out...to boot...begin and sustain a new cycle of spending and trading up to an even bigger and better home, when he can no longer do the "cash out", debt consolidating "refi"...stuck paying his recent credit card balances and newest car loan, with no hope of again......making it disappear into his mortgage balance? Will the new homeowners who are forced to refi their "no money down"...."buyer's ARM" into a mortgage that raises their monthly payment by 50 percent, while they observe a drop in value of a home that they already had no equity in...react to their dramatically higher mortgage payment? Will they pay...or will they walk away? ace....the subprime lenders who I earlier covered, about 30 of them now....in distress, acquisition or BK, just since December, flamed out, even with no increase in the US unemployment rate. Explain how job losses in the realty boom related segments, and in building materials, trucking, construction equipment, etc., will be minimal, if the decline in realty related activity continues. What will replace the lost jobs and the related activity, to prevent the decline of GDP growth? Quote:
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Explain ace, given that the recent run up was much longer and peaked much higher, how it will "be different, this time"? Quote:
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I predict that the decline will last more than ten years, ace, in the majority of US local realty markets....ten years from now, or from sometime in 2005, depending on local conditions. I predict, that...just as the housing boom drove a period of unparalled prosperity for a fortunate, and sizeable minority of American homeowners, speculators, and realty industry participants, and that it is already, and will continue to "spill over"on the broader economy, affecting US GDP to the point of a sustained period of negative GDP, low enough and long enough to be declared by the Federal Reserve as an economic depression, accompanied by double digit unemployment numbers and record personal BK filings and residential foreclosures. Earliest date when national median home price is equal to that of the high during the last two years, and when new and existing home sales are equal to the highest monthly median number during the last two years, (even a collapse of the dollar would not make both median price and number of units sold, quickly achievable, IMO), is at least no sooner than the spring of 2015, IMO. |
Here is where I am going to start to see if we have any basis of a common understanding of economic markets.
Lets assume there is a residential property with a fair market rental value of $1500 per month. After expenses (taxes, insurance, maint., etc) the net cash flow is $1,000 per month, assuming no inflation or other variables, and that cashflow held constant for 30 years. What would you be willing to pay for that cash flow? Discounting the cash flow using 5%, I would pay about $186,000. Next lets assume the property has a residual value at the end of that 30 years, simply the value of the land and lets i say it is going to be $50,000. How much would you pay today for a lump sum of $50,000 in 30 years? I would pay about $11,000, discounting at 5%. If you found such a property that was selling a lot less than $197,000 would you buy it? I would. You could argue that there is no guarantee in the rental value being $1,500 per month. That is a good questions and that is the fundamental issue that begs an answer in regard to any real estate bubble bursting. There is a demand for housing. The demand is not getting smaller, it is getting bigger. In most cases supply growth lags demand growth. In none of your posts have you cited a source linking a drop in housing demand and the "crash" or whatever you want to call it. to me it it is obvious that housing demand will not materially change in the overall market, hence there is a floor to the "crash". We know what it is. Property values will drop to their intrinsic values, if that far - because speculator will never completely leave the market. In the above example if the property is selling for $250,000, it is clearly over valued. But when it drops to $197,000, that is not a "crash", is it? If it dropped to $150,000 smart money will quickly come in, and over a short period of time the value will go back to $197,000 You ask the question where is $800 billion going to come from to replace funds that where taken out of the real-estate market? I know we have discussed this in the past, i.e. in the early '90's money flowed into stocks, then started shifting into real-estate, and will shift into something else. And remember we are really only talking about speculative money. But the driver of our economy is productivity growth. that combined with job growth will keep our economy going strong. Here is a link from GWB, just so you have something to say is not credible. Quote:
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thanks host and ace for your tete a tete... very informative.
and yes, I agree about the housing market demand outstripping the inventory. there are many people out there who do own multiple properties but don't rent. many people in NYC have a city dwelling and a country dwelling. so there are a good number of housing that doesn't make it into the rental inventory. right now in Vegas there is an interesting point wherein rents and mortgates are about equal, downpayments are disounted heavily in some cases to 1% down. So the Vegas market seesaws back and forth. Now the biggest benefit that I'm a firm believer in is that more often a home owner is a better community member than a renter. Home owners have more of a stake in community since their values are tied to community health. |
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Here's today's trading range on stock symbol, "LEND", ace" ACCREDITED HOME LE (NasdaqGS:LEND) http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=lend&x=60&y=16 Day's Range: 14.93 - 18.15 ....and here is the problem: The financial "community" in the US sold and "packaged" sub-prime mortgage into MBS's...mortgage backed securities. In order to make it "attractive" to investors to assume the risk associated with buying these "junk" credit reting level investment "vehicles", the issuers (the crooks at the big brokerage houses), described below....inserted clauses that gave MBS buyers the right to force the sub-prime lenders like LEND and NEW and NFI, to buy them back from the investors if too many of the individual mortgages conatined in a given MSB, defaulted due to non-payment of monthly mortgage payments, during an initial period of a yera or two after the MBS was purchased. LEND is down today, because stock market participants are finally asking who will buy the MBS's currently being packaged from newly issued sub-prime mortgages. Weighing against these now failing lenders are returns of formerly sold MBS's accompanied by demands for refunds by the investors who bought them. Difficulty in obtaining new funds to lend on future mortgages sold to home buyers increasingly viewed as poor risk. Less mortgage and re-fi business due to shrinking numbers of homes sold...... Quote:
The answer, ace, is that the replacement "stimulus" and the replacement jobs to offset the decline caused by the unwinding of the housing boom, just ain't there, and the liquidation that is coming will not be orderly, and will not behave as your "intrinsic value" assumptions would need it to. There will be huge numbers of formerly employed and prosperous home equity withdrawing, and spending.....former homeowners filing for BK, and looking for the cheapest rental housing that they can afford, and the oversized houses that were recently built in great numbers....the second homes, the homes demanded by now gone flippers, the homes purchased by unqualified, sub-prime buyers with fraudulanlty obtained "no doc" , "low doc", and no down-payment, interest only mortgages, will end up sitting vacant, a new blight on the American landscape, to join the still un-lit, excess fiber optic network buildout of the last malinvestment in America, the internet stock bubble. Non-productive malinvestment, ace....not the stuff that facilitates a "productivity miracle", like the one that would be needed to make your idea of what will stimulate our economy, now that the housing bubble has blown up..... |
I am not trying to persuade you or anyone of anything. What we have is just a different view of market economics. That's o.k., when I am a buyer I need sellers like you and when I am a seller I need buyers like you. Either you win or I do. that is what I love about free markets.
Subprime is the problem of the day. Next week there will be a new one. However, the real problem involving entitlements won't go away - social security and medicare. On LEND - I am not a short-term trader. I just hppened to pick LEND from your list and looked at it in more detail. It is actually not a bad stock. Once it gets through this subprime issue, it will be o.k. Also, your chart doesn't show it but the stock "gapped down in August of '06 on strong volume, it gapped down again in October '06 on strong volume and gapped down again in March. The time to sell was in August or October. Some large institutional investors were clearly getting out at that time and have continued selling. LEND was over-valued, and most likely still has about 20% fat in its price depending on what happens next in the subprime lending market. If it drops to about $13, that would be a good time to buy, assuming about a 6 PE, 6% growth and about an 8% discount rate . The estimated 5 year growth rate is about 10%, but analyst have started making reductions. |
Ace, I have to add or amend to what you are saying. I don't believe it's a zero-sum game (necessarily), I believe that both parties can be winners. If you sell or buy at a price you like and same for me, then we both win. That's what I like about free markets.
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When two parties transact with the same information and the same method for establishing value then it is a question of different variables, i.e. I might use an 8% discount rate and you use 10%, or perhaps you or I are buying and selling for different reasons, like retirement, etc. These transactions are actually the most fun, because you don't mind having lunch with the guy or gal afterward.:) |
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ace, jorgelito, and host have all had an opportunity to "paint" their respective opinions on the state of...and the prospects going forward...of the US economy. It is, as it always is here, a competition of the presentaion of ideas and opinions. There are few things that are of greater concern to me than the looming, and probably imminent, economic depression that I see unfolding in front of us. The complacency of those who posted in disagreement is displayed on the same forum pages, in sharp contrast to my presentation. Quote:
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Pay day loan companies and pawn shops are next in line to ruin the economy. More on that next week.
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Complacency? Are you kidding me? Where do you get off host? That is terribly presumptious, pompous, and elitist of you to presume that me and Ace are being complacent. What, just because we hold a different opinion than you? Give me a break!
Competition? Is that how you see this forum as a "competition to post ideas and opinions"? What the hell? What is this, a varisty sport? Dude, this is an internet forum, NOT a junior debate league. Are you actually keeping score at home? I'm not sure what purpose you had in mind when quoting my post from a completetly different thread (Jennifer Love Hewitt). What does that have to do with the economy discussion here? Ace, you better make sure that your post on pawn shops and payday loan companies is backed by solid sources and quotes that take up two pages, otherwise, you may "lose the compeition". Lighten up man, stop making this a contest. |
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If we can't or won't exercise this resource, and set an example of doing so, in depth, in a place like this....a place where we come to discuss politics, where will it ever happen? We can exchange "banter" in a supermarket check out line, sitting on a barstool, or with neighbors who stroll by, as we are watering our lawn. If we don't post in favor of a higher level of presentation here, complete with linked text in support of our points, much of the potential of the internet is reduced to just "shooting the shit" with each other. We can do that over on the Gen. Diss. forum...or in the parking lot, and next to the office watercooler. ....and nobody is required to participate in any thread that I author, so I guess that I am unable to see why my thread OP's receive responses that are not competitive and "jack" the topic and the spirit of the intent of the OP ideas and supporting references..... It makes me feel like Al Greenspan must have....after he spoke about the potential for economic recession in the US, and this "response" came: Quote:
Would that Terry Keenan, and ace and jorgelito, exhibibit some curiousity and concern as to how Richard Syron, got the job of heading Freddie Mac, and then....only after his GSE's ridiculously lax lending policy provided the liquidity that drove housing prices to unsustainable and unreasonable valuations in the first place, sees a need to "toughen" lending rules, now that lending to unqualified and poorly documented mortgage applicants cannot be further justified on the grounds that even the massive liquidity flowing from his agency is not enough to assure that it is fine to lend to people who have poor credit and "no money down" because doing so would continue to push up the valuations of all homes. I'm also wondering why Freddie Mac would ever purchase the mortgage loans of home buyers who were unqualified and had little or no downpayment at the time they applied, and I'm more concerned as to why Richard Syron still has his job, than I can be about any comments made by Greenspan about economic risks. Quote:
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No Host, you are quite wrong. It is disingenuous to presume that Ace and I don't care or are cavalier about your topics. Just because we disagree with your position does not mean we do not care.
Who says it's premature to discuss the economy? I didn't. I just offered you a different opinion. I think it is quite rude of you to dismiss my post (and Ace's) as not "actual discussion". Accusations of thread jacks and violating the "spirit of intent" are also petty and catty. People respond to your threads because they are interested in the topics or want to discuss the issues that you have put forth. Again, people have differing opinions so it really should not be a surprise when that is reflected in the responses. But to accuse us of thread jacking or not submitting valid responses or not enough sources or violating the spirit of the thread is just really low and childish. I gave you the best source and citation of all. My own personal experience. Not some sanitized and disengaged anonymous internet source from some egg head in an ivory tower. My own personal experience. Are you trying to tell me that doesn't count? Additionally, my post that you quoted here is backed by facts. I didn't just pull them out of the blue. I find it interesting that you only take issue with peope's lack of citation of sources when their opinion disagrees with yours. I have never seen you bash or snidely attack other's posts that agreed with your position. Why is that? Double standard? No wonder UsTwo left. Sorry buddy, you can't have it both ways. If you want discussion and responses to your thread, you're just gonna have to accept differing opinions, you can't dictate what people write. |
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Example: If widgets historically sell for $1. $1 is the generally accepted value of a widget, given all production costs and reasonable profit. Then speculators enter the market, and over time they bid the price up to $100. They buy, sell, finance, profit, etc. because of this speculation. Then over a shorter period of time the value of widgets goes back to $1. You seem to want to call the drop from $100 to $1 a crash. You seem to use the logic that the drop from $100 to $1 will have a lasting adverse impact on the market in which these widgets sell. Since we don't see the above the same, You can post reams of material supporting your view and I can do the same, and the exchange of that data was a waste. When I was on my highschool debate team, the first thing the coach always said was define your terms. I tried to get you to do that with subprime, but in all the material you posted, none of it defined what was actually meant by subprime. Hell, almost nobody can get a loan at prime, and almost nobody who needs a loan goes into the process as a "prime" loan candidate. Everyone has some potential re-payment risk. Perhaps you should stop ignoring direct questions. |
ace....I can't answer your question, because your comments aren't even on the same dimension as the OP and the posts of other members....well yeah...I guess jorgelito is commenting in your dimension....
Residential real estate valuations are built on easy availability to liquidity, and that easy availability is gone now. It drove the RE market, and it drove this country's economy, and even in it's slightly diminished level, until now....it propped up the perception of current (recent )home and current (recent) stock valuations. Now, beginning in earnest, in the public's eye, anyway, the liguidity availability, the curret "prop" it gave to valuations, and the "mo mo" it provided until the latter part of 2005....is going away....and this has all the makings of an initial period of an absence of liquidity driven, economic depression in the US: Quote:
....and check the current stock prices of the four stocks that I posted charts on, a week ago. You could have made some $$$, like I did, shortselling or buying put contracts, like I did....I gave you free advice, ace.......that you could (and still can....) profit on.....what are you giving me....or most of the other readers....besides "smoke", up where the sun "done" shine? |
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Here is an article from WSJ. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1173..._whats_news_us Quote:
Lets clarify the issue in question. Can you state your premise - in one paragraph. |
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This "scam" came with the, at least "tacit" approval of federal regulators, and Fannie and Freddie management. The losers....the bagholders, will be every J6P who works in a home or mortgage related industry....and later....by sometime in 2008, most of the rest of us... ace....when the "BS" anal-ysts upgrade "NEW", eleven days ago....the stock's price was above $15. Trading is halted now by NYSE...."NEW" closed friday at $3.21 per share.... my Level II screen (real time stock quotes)....shows, when and if trading in "NEW" resumes, the bid is $1.65 and the ask is $1.68....why don't the Bear Stearns shills who claimed it would be worth...worse case....above $10 per share, just ten days ago, buy "NEW" for their investment bank..... ace.....I can lead you to it, but I can't make you see. All of the signs are there....and the thieves who run Wall Street, and the FED/Fannie/Freddie, and every real estate agent and mortgage banker who gets in front of a mic, or in print, will soft peddle this decline to depression, all the way to the bottom.....down, down, down....on a wall of (misguided) hope! |
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ace....your WSJ article is wrapped around the same conflict of interest as this is: Quote:
Saying the market is rigged for the reason stated assumes people investing billions of dollars are fools. Quote:
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Here you go guys (and Host :) ). Hopefully this post is more in line with what you prefer.
The economy is fine. It will go up at times and it will go down at times. It will be overvalued at times and be undervalued at times. Some people will lose their jobs, others will gain new jobs. Every now and then there will be a crash and the cycle will repeat. I see no reason to panic. Deficit is down. Quote:
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The home equity and the pension account balances of Americans who can least afford to lose, are washing out first, ace.....the folks who were in a position to buy the MSB's won't feel the pain as soon as retail realtors, home construction and building materials related workers, and back office mortgage underwriting staff, and the J6P's who walk away or are foreclosed out of their over valued homes. I gave you an example of Bear Stearns' criminally conflicting position and the propaganda that they broadcast. Fitch, Moodys, and S&P rating houses all have similar conflicts. I truly have spelled it out for you, ace....we just went through a stock market driven decline, seven short years ago. This time it's starting with real estate financing....but it's no different this time, in the early stages...but it will be a much deeper decline, and it will last much, much longer. You can bet on it, ace....I am...and so far....so good... |
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Incoherent, ace.....just as the "talk" that, without unemployment even rising yet....from the effects of this "mess".....everything "will be fine"...... tick....tick.....tick....one state "down".....49 to go.....? Quote:
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ne...nG=Search+News ....but what's this ???: Quote:
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....and keep on eye on the stock market indices in Japan, Hong Kong, Korea, China, and the in the US....you ain't seen nothin' yet: http://finance.yahoo.com/intlindices?e=americas Quote:
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I read this morning in IBD that new forclosures as a percentage of total mortgages are at an all time high - 0.54%. That is about 1 in 200 homes with mortgages. Mortgage deliquency rates are at 4.5%, highest in about 4 years. Adjustable subprime loan deliquency rates are at 14.4%, again the highest in 4 years. Many think things will get worse before getting better. I think panic is going through the market. I will sit on the sidelines until the dust settles.
The irony is that once this all settles, many hard-working middle class and poor will not be able to buy homes. Small mortgage companies and banks will have to operate in an environment with increased regulation, making them less competetive with the big banks. The market will be less competetive and consumers will pay higher fees and higher interest rates. Big banks, big corporations, and the rich will win. If you think that is a good thing - keep encouraging panic. |
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....are you accusing me of a "not supporting the troops", "syndrome", ace.... Are those of us who see something "not right".....extraordinary....about an "injection" of $4.7 trillion into a "pool" of total outstanding mortgage debt, in just six years, that propels the total from less than $6 trillion in 2001, to the current $10.5 trillion, now....really wrong to call it as we see it? ...to "call it" when, suddenly, just since december, 36 of the top 100 subprime lenders, go under, get absorbed at near firesale prices and then become a toxic drain on their new owners, or simply cease to operate.....a start of a decline to an economic depression.... ...am I really the problem, ace....or is the problem a series of aggressive Fed and US government interference in the direction of markets.....markets that you seem to see as relatively "free and unfettered"...., that is as long as the government interferes to prop them up, and inject liquidity and policies that make them only go up? It started in the current cycle with the Fed arranging a bailout for imploded hedge fund, LTCM in 1998, and that triggered the perception of the Greenspan "put", and that fueled the tech stock bubble that was capped off by a March , 2000 Nasdaq index high of 5138, followed, less than three years later, by a low in the same index of 1107, followed by the Fed lowering the overnight, interbank lending rate to one percent, triggering a speculative bubble in real estate....flamed by the low interest rate and ever more "relaxed" lending standards, and an actual bias by the Fed and the CEO of Freddie Mac....to lend at 100 percent in an environment where home valuations are increasing at 5 to 10 percent annually....lending with an official nod that was the driving force....for too long, in the 5 to 10 percent annual average appreciation.... No, ace....I'm not "talking down" the economy or the markets, anymore than folks who demand an end to the lying, self-destructive folly that is the US involvement militarily in Iraq, is "failing to support the troops". I didn't put the troops there or keep them for 4 years, after "fixing the intelligence to match the policy" to manipulate the passage of an Oct. 2002 congressional resolution that gave the executive branch the power to "send in the troops" to stop the "WMD programs" of a "friend of al-Qaeda" who was a "menace to his region",and to the United States....and he's developing missiles and nukes and can we wait until we see a mushroom cloud...... ....No ace....I'm doing the same thing that I've done here since Sept., 2004, calling "it" as I see it.....in real time.....with a track record of accurate prediction that is strong enough for me to mention it.... ....I've given you stock tips that, if followed, would have brought anybody who reacted to them, some quick market profits, ace....and If I influence even one or two readers to consider what I describe is happening to our economy, housing valuations, and credit availability, I'll feel some satisfaction. In your last post, you've thrown a "straw man" argument at my, ace, but you also conceed, which you didn't, earlier in this thread, that there is cause for concern about an economy that you claimed was driven up by "tax cuts". I claimed that it was driven by deficit building federal borrowing and home owner mortgage equity extraction (MEW) and spending the extracted funds. If the economy has the sound fundamentals and robustness that you have claimed in this thread, and in a number of others, why accuse me of anything negative by claiming that I'm "talking 'er down". Why should you even be concerned enough to post that last sentence in your preceding post, if nothing that I've posted concern about, will negatively affect your business as usual, "its' a great economy", opinion? .....oh....and ace....they're being made to swallow their own toxic sludge....just a taste....nothing near the probable $2 trillion in MSB's foisted on "marks" and "bag holders", such as the "high returns" seeking managers of the pension funds of too many ordinary Americans..... ...and they'll drown on their most recent accumulation of subprime and Alt-A mortgage loans, but the American public....concentrated in home owners and folks with pension assets, will swallow the trillions that they already "packaged" and sold via BSC and LEH....and they won't write any new "sludge" loans, because they don't like the taste, and liquidity dries up....and down, down, down, we go....There was "panic" in October 1929, when the DOW index dropped from the 393 high, just the month before, to below 200, before rebounding for a year or more....to the upper 200's. It was quiet on July 8, 1932, when the DOW traded at the lowest level that it has since then....41 that day. "Panic" isn't what brings down the markets, fundamentals eventually do that: Quote:
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How is it that the two of you can decide to agree and then fight about that?
Ace: there's no problem Host: yes there is Ace: well based on this new information, there might be a problem but we'll have to wait and see. You may be part of the problem, btw. Host: thanks for acknowledging the validity of part of my arguement. WMD! Al Qaeda! Seriously, you two are like an old married couple. |
chuckle...."the Bickersons...."
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I stopped fighting with my wife years ago. However, for some reason I still have this need to get into a chest pounding contest every once in awhile. When you see it happening feel free to slap me. |
Well...it's a new week, and some candid talk from:
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The subprime issue is more hype than substance. The fundamental value of real estate is real. True experts are not suprised by what is happening in the market today, are not paniced, and see the correction as healthy for the market.
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The housing valuation "bubble" did not accelerate to a "bubble top" until after the data/conclusions in your posted publication was published. MEW was not "extracted" from consumer's home equity in $800 billion annual "chunks" until several quarters after Oct., 2004, and the subprime and Alt-A lending abuses that are now destroying the mortgage writing businesses and the credit ratings and financial security of the borrowers of those mortgages, were mostly created in 2005 and 2006..... Look for valuation losses as high as 50 percent from top of bubble highs, ace, they are coming. How can housing prices, driven up by waves of liquidity created out of thin air by our fractional reserve banking system, avoid the same decline of Nasdaq 2000 index stocks of 1999 to 2002.....driven up by the same dynamics, and then down when the liquidity driven sentiment, and the credit availability of the speculative buyers (bidders), declined..... Quote:
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The point of the article was to show an objective method of determining the fundamental value of real estate. Using mathematical modeling we can determine the extent of overvaluation. Then we can challenge the assumtions used in the mathematical model. When people randomly pick numbers out of the air to say what they think the impact will be is pretty much meaningless. At this point in the hype it's the people not willing to do math having their opinions publicized all over the palce.
Just like my analysis of LEND, when I do the same for real estate in my local market, there is some fat but not much. and certainly not 50%. Perhaps 50% applies to your local market, but I doubt nationally we will see a drop over 5% to 10% in year over year numbers. Quote:
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Host,
Seen the latest housing report? Quote:
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The february "numbers" do not reflect the impact of the severe tightening in mortgage qualifying ability of more current and future "refi" and new mortgage applicants, than you can possible imagine yet, ace....but it's coming: IMO, this is over....The "home builders", consumers, recent home buyers, those who "maxed out their home equity in serial "refis", and the US economy are "dead men walking". The "lending model" could only be sustained if residential property rose in value. Mortgage applicants who would never be approved for loans in a no or low appreciation price environment, drove the demand, along with speculators and 2nd home buyers, and initial scarcity of "for sale" inventory, drove up price and eventually an overbuilt, excess inventory. Now, in a declining price environment, formerly credit worthy folks, enriched on "cash out refinancing" on 3 or 4 occasions in the last 5 years as their home equity, on paper, rose, speculated on second home purchases, refied their credit cards and car loans into their newest refied mortgage, extracted "MEW" of $800 billion in 2005, and spent it into an economy that grew briskly, because of this "one time", escalating stimulus. Now, it will all unwind....the US Congress can only push for tighter terms on all borrowers, and all will be required to meet lending restrictions that will only qualify those capable of making payments at 30 year, conventional, principle and interest, with insurance and tax payments also factored. PEOPLE!!! THIS IS NOT A "PROBLEM" CONFINED TO SUB-PRIME BORROWERS.... Quote:
Other examples: DOW 30 Index, Sept. 1929= 393 DOW 30 Index, July 8, 1932= 41 Nasdaq 2000 Index, March 10, 2000= 5132 http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EI...=15&f=2000&g=d Nasdaq 2000 Index, Oct. 10, 2002= 1108 http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EI...=15&f=2002&g=d Nikkei 225 stock index, Dec. 29, 1989= 38957 http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN...=31&f=1989&g=d Nikkei 225 stock index, Apr. 3, 2003= 7603 http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=%5EN...=30&f=2003&g=d The "good news" is that residential property valuations will not revert to a low of 20 percent of their former highs, but a decline of 40 to 50 percent from the 2005-2006 prices in the areas of the country with the most intense speculative bubbles, is, IMO, a high probability event, and it will be achieved in span of the next 3 to 15 years. The Nasdaq is still less than half way back to it's high of March, 2000, the Nikkei is still below half of it's Dec., 1989 high, and the Dow 30 index did not revisit it's 1929 high again, until 1953. YOU MIGHT THINK THAT IT IS "DIFFERENT THIS TIME", but it never is....never has been...HUGE BUBBLE...liquidity crunch..HUGE DECLINE....EVERY TIME.... Quote:
Stock closed at $47.25. Short sold an equal amount today at $48.32, after the "new home sales", 10:00 am report, briefly spurred up the KBH price. Did a "cover buy" trade, out of yesterday's KBH short position....paid $46.51 today.... $249.00 gross profit on each hundred shares in that trade. Still short today's shares, borrowed and sold at $48.32 Bought <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=QFWPC.x&x=23&y=16">put contracts</a> on stock symbol LEND today, paid $3.40 each, and I think that this was a "gift", since they are contracts to sell LEND at $15 with April 21, 2007 expiration, and LEND was $12.40 when I made the trade. LEND is at $11.95 at this moment, it has traded below $4.00 in the last two weeks, and below $9.00 earlier this week. It had to pledge all of it's assets to obtain a "loan" at 13 percent interest, last week. It is selling billions of loans that it already made at .95 cents on the dollar, or less. Each billion in loans sold, costs LEND at least $50 million. LEND is BK, IMO, trading up on misguided sentiment.... Just sold CFC (Countrywide) short, as I was writing this.... at $36.65 per share. I bought (after Icahn made "noise" about a "plan" to buy at $22.00) <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=wcire.x&x=63&y=15">put contracts</a> on WCI that expire in June at a strike price of $25.00.... I paid $3.20 and WCI trades now at $22.41 ....WCI is stuck with a huge inventory of unsold So. Fla condos....has stopped building new towers, and has laid off more than 2000 since November. The stock price is "propped up" by "noises" made by Carl Icahn...he hold a 15 percent position in WCI and sez he "might" tender an offer at $22.00 for each outstanding share. I view the current valuation at less than $10 per share....with a BK filing possible in the next 12 months: http://wci-cancellations.com/ Quote:
The point, ace...is that I'm puttin' my money where my mouth is. They'll be tough days....like the post Fed, non-announcement "melt up" of the stock indexes,two days ago....but they were shorting opportunities....there has been no "follow up" from stock buyers, since..... |
You have more courage than me. With the subprime lenders being so volatile and the obsessive media and now congressional attention on the subprime issue it seems like putting new money on the table is like playing roulett. If I were you I would take the quick profits and put the money in something were the odds of long-term ppayoff is better.
I don't really care what Lereah's opinion is, I just focus on the numbers. Many in the subprime industry are taking the position that the market forces will work this issue out, and that interference will make matters worse. I agree. If there is calm, this will be a non-issue next month. |
This is great news. Finally the housing market is undergoing a correction. Once all the bad debts have been cleared out, there will be many great deals and foreclusures to be had by us responsible people. I would prefer it to bottom out more so that the housing prices become more reasonable.
I live in LA where the market is still redhot and way overpriced. 1st world prices for third world conditions. It's embarrassing. Ace, I agree with your contention that this is an overblown issue and it's best not to interfere. I doubt there will be calm though. Too many people running around screaming the sky is falling egged on by the media. |
ace, I avoid staying in a stock or an option position for more than a day or two,
for the reasons that you stated, but IMO, that will change as the scope of the unwinding of the overall economy that the decline in residential real estate valuations will be the catalyst for, picks up "mo" that is the mirror opposite of the upside "energy" that drove prices to "bubble" levels, and minimum borrowing qualification criteria to ridiculously lax levels..... jorgelito, what makes you confident that you will have an income that will put you in a position to take advantage of lower housing prices, with news like this? No one knows what will happen, because it says that it is "unprecedented". The clue that we do have, is that current homeowners ("bag holders"???) have never been more leveraged....more susceptible to bad consequences from even small housing price drops... Quote:
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....and there have been no significant layoffs in the homebuilding, realty, appraisal, home inspection, landscaping, building supplies employment sectors, or even a reported downturn in their activity levels....and it will all weigh on the economy...with a delayed and then sustained ripple effect. Check out reports on morgage industry employment impact in Orange County...and, how many commercial office spaces will stop producing revenue.....as this picks up "steam"?: Quote:
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in an effort to share with those interested in watching the US housing market and housing valuations implode....in real time.....consider this site:
http://www.countrywide.com/purchase/f_reo.asp You'll be able to watch Coountrywde Mortgage Comany's inventory of foreclosed and unsold houses rise....and they and other mortgage companies will lower prices until the market is flooded wth this "stuff". Either that....or they pay taxes...maintenance....etc....on the houses that they eat as mortgagees walk away from loans. Fifteen percent of Calif. homes for sale are already foreclosures. Combine this with the drying up of liqiuidty for new lending and this will work it's way UP to "prime" mortgagees. Mortgagees who put down 20 percent but who experiencee the loss of all eqiuty in their homes....and then some....will walk away too...if valuation drops low enough for long enough....now it's sprfeading from subprime to Alt-A loans.... Below: ALT-A lender AHM waited until the start of a 3 day weekend (with the markets closed) to release it's "bad news". inDYBank (NDE) fought off the decline in it's stock pirce by staging highly publcized insider "buys" of it's shares....and by shouting that they were Alt-A lenders not subprime. With the bad news from Alt-A lenders AHM and from M&T Bank what excuse will indybank say next? Countrywide committed to buying back $1 billion of it's own shares....even as chairman Angelo Mozilo sold his own shares as quickly as he could....ALL are doing everything they can to take attention away from the fact that they are trapped by the declining credit quality of those who they lent money to and by the declining collateral of the mortgagees in their homes and by a smaller pool of qualified new borrrowers as loan approoval requirements further tighten as the news of the fundamentals grows worse..... Quote:
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Host, I hope you don't mind this personal aside, but I find it refreshing to reread these older posts without the "you just hate Bush" and "looney liberal" responses that passed for debate a year ago. Things do change in time. :)
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The data does not support an implosion in the realestate market. Alarmist simply want to make headlines, so until there is a material change in the info below, market fundementals will stay strong.
http://www.mnforsustain.org/pop_us_2...0_pyramids.htm Projected population growth 1999 to 2020 is 57 million. http://www.census.gov/const/newressales_200702.pdf Quote:
http://www.census.gov/population/www...m/cps2006.html Average household size is 2.57 Therefore there will be about 22 million new households between 1999 and 2020, or a need for an average of 1.1 million new households per year. Using the above numbers there is an average deficit of about 252,000 housing units per year. What I don’t know is how many multi-family dwelling units being constructed or the rate in which existing homes are being made obsolete each year. However, no matter how I look at the numbers plugging in assumptions for apartments and obsolesence, the long-term trend for real-estate is good and we are in a short-term correction. No implosion. This map shows where the increase in delinquencies are, it is moderate in most of the nation except for Nv, CA and Fl. The folks in those markets should be very concerned, however most need not worry. http://online.wsj.com/media/info-Delinquency_map.gif http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...0704-sort.html |
ace, none of the above matters if a massive, unrelenting stream of foreclosure sales competes with homeowner "offerings", and the glut of builders still rising inventories, month after month.....VALUATION will fall, then plummet, turning the ATM cash out refi, into a "cash back in", "re-pay", and then a "walk away". This will feed on itself, just as the uptrend in valuation, to bubble level did, fed by huge amounts of liquidity, advanced to unqualified mortgage applicants, "at the top" of the bubble, for the last several years.
To believe otherwise, is to believe in fairy tales, IMO: "only the beginning....only just the start-" .....Chicago Quote:
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Seems like this month the subprime thing isn't making headlines like it did last month. There are indicators the housing market hit bottom and is recoverying. Quote:
At this point all you have to do is stop responding (I promise not to rub it in), everyone who has read this thread knows your data does not support your view that the housing market is going into free fall and will have broader ramifications throughout the economy causing further panic and doom. I am going to be able to post endless amounts of data showing market improvement - because it is real - because long-term marco indicators support strong market fundementals. |
Ace...the housing industry doesnt share your optimism.
A press release from NAHB this week: Quote:
http://www.nahb.org/generic.aspx?sec...cContentID=529 Quote:
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dc_dux, "the problem" is actually exacerbated by the mindset that there is "no problem".....
We see "it"....this "mindest"....in the US stock market.....the talking heads on CNBS are going "ga ga"....this week, because the DOW (DJIA) an index of just 30 stocks, is poised to set a new "record", around 12,800....while the Nasdaq 2000 index, a measure of 2000 stocks, is trading at just half of it's march, 2000 peak valuation of 5148. The DOW index is adjusted periodically, removing "laggards".....underperforming stocks that would tend to make that index average lower than it is today. For many Americans, the Dow is the stock market, so..... <img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/my/_/_ixic"><br> The major Japanese stock indes, often called the "Nikkei Dow", is today trading at less than 1/2 it's 1990 level of 39,000.....but we don't dwell on that.... <img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/my/_/_n225"> Iraq is a fucking mess, but folks like John McCain, Joe Lieberman (described recently as Bush's <a href="http://zenhuber.blogspot.com/2007/03/bush-and-rovewellians-still-going.html">"sex toy"</a>), and president Bush, himself, all see "improvement". All I see are more avoidable, "empty chairs" at the dinner tables at too many US family gatherings....and at Iraqi tables, as well: Quote:
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I'm in the school that believes that we are only in the early morning phase of the economic disaster that many, many American families are headed for...maybe it's about 2:30 am, right now. Ace maintains that the worst is over. Dc_dux, ace will view your example of the 33 number for current builder sentiment as a "tradeable bottom". So far, the Nikkei bottom from 39,000 was 7607 in 2003.....14 years after the top, and the Dow bottomed from a 1929 top of 393, to just 41 in July, 1932. The Nasdaq top was 5148 in March, 2000, and the bottom.....so far....in late 2002 was about 1100. I see builder sentiment dropping below 10, and....since this is the biggest housing price valuation bubble and lending excess period in US history, average valuation declines of 40 and even 50 percent are certainly expected. Indeed....in some Florida condo markets, these levels of decline have already been reached. I hope that you were "playing" with me, in your last post, ace. I'll worry about you if you really were serious in advising me not to post on this subject, because you say the crisis is over, or never existed..... Quote:
When I posted here: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...9&postcount=48 ....back on Feb, 23....less than 2 months ago.....only 23 of these lenders had imploded..... Now that the private sector will no longer write risky loans.....putting pressure on housing valuations due to increased foreclosures of overvalued homes, purchased by unqualified buyers with no means of maintaining ownership in a climate of falling housing valuations....along comes a GSE....the government....to the rescue. They looked scared ace.....this is not a development in a healthy market, or in a healthy economy. It smells of the government propping up housing valuations because the alternative is reality.....something that you are avoiding acknowledging, ace: Quote:
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There are fundemental questions that get avoided in your analysis, the above is an example. If you have an answer to that there are others. Quote:
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I assume you saw this: http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...0416101141.gif Quote:
I guess "it" really won't start until the chart's trend reverses. we will see what happens next month. |
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Could it be that you just dont but much credence in the HMI Index by the housing trade association and one of the largest mortgage lenders because it doesnt support your position? |
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As you know there are many problems with indexes like the HMI Index. During a market correction an index like this is more reflective of the past than of the future. When you look at the HMI numbers over the past two year it is clear that the index failed to predict the market correction, as the index peaked in October 2005 right at the time the market started to correct. The current number, if I would give meaning to it, would indicate, a market bottom as a contrarian indicator. The number has been in the 30's since July of 2006, the low was September of 2006 at 30. Another factor is the psyhcology of responding to surveys like HMI. When presented with choices like "good", "poor", or "fair" what do you say after a booming period where making money was easy? Market corrections tend to eleminate the weak links and you end up with a strong core group of business people who really understand the market and are willing to do the real work. People who made the easy money and won't survive will respond accordingly. This was in the press release also. Quote:
And the regional number in the Midwest hit a low of 16 in August and September of 2006 and then 15 in November. Can Host explain why all lending and building just did not come to a complete stop in the Midwest? Mmmmm? I did not think so. |
Host,
Perhaps the market has begun to turn. The data today may be a blip, according to some economist but I think otherwise. To save you the effort, I have included a link with comments from economists who think that data is problematic. Quote:
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Host,
Some may consider this piling on but, I enjoy it. Remember our exchange on the Accredited Home Lenders (LEND), I talked about the intrinsic value of the stock based on certain assumptions and said the following in#35: Quote:
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ace, if a private equity fund decides to buy a bankrupt company that cannot sell it's loans because of the increasing defaults of the loans it is already responsible for....a bankrupt company that recently obligated itself to a new, $213 million debt that is owed on top of the offer for outstanding shares, a bankrupt company that has delayed the filing of it's financials for more than three months, and of it's annual report for at least that long, a bankrupt company that lost it's auditor ten weeks ago, over "going concern" reservations by that auditor (concerns that the company ran a high risk of not being able to continue operations due to it's financial circumstances)....does that make a convincing case (especially since there has been no public disclosure...this year of Accredited Home's finances) that the subprime and Alt-A mortgage crisis, and the housing valuation decline that it aggravates....is somehow mitigated?
<center><img src="http://attheselevels.com/uploads/PJL051107.PNG"></center><br> I don't think so....and we'll have to wait and see if this $400 million + $213 million debt to Farallon Capital "purchase" of Accredited Home (stock symbol LEND) actually happens, or not.....Did you read anywhere that Lone Star's offer is not contingent upon due dilligence, since Accredited Home has not filed any financial reports with the SEC for it's 1st qtr or it's annual report? Quote:
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http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/ |
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People who bought LEND at $13 based on fundemental analysis (establishing a floor for the stock price) and today sell at $15, made about 15% in about 60 days. And those large institional investors who were selling when the stock was in the $40's, most likely did equally well on an annualized basis. Those reacting to headlines got burned. Good to see you back on this topic. |
To put this article in perspective:
1.) It comes at the height of the annual residential real estate "selling" season, while US stock market indexes, DJIA and S&P 500 are posting record highs. 2.) It comes as the subprime CDO purchase price is at a new low, less than 60 cents per dollar of face value of the bonds made up of subrprime mortgage loans, packaged in tranches ($10 million "chunks") to be sold to clueless pension funds: ABX-HE-BBB- 07-1 http://www.markit.com/information/affiliations/abx 3.) It comes during a time when the leading packager and marketer of these "junk mortgage loans", Bear Stearns becomes a victim of it's own bullshit: Quote:
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It won't go down without a fight...there will be much manipulation from the major brokerages, banks, and from GSE's like Fannie and Freddie, and from the Fed itself. I predict that treasury secretary and former Goldman Sachs chairman Hank Paulsen will be telling us that he "sees the bottom", until he is replaced on January 20, 2009. I predict that the 2008 election will be about the economy, and that we will live through ten years of misery and economic dislocation not witnessed since the 1930's. What is coming ought to begin to scare the shit out of you, but denial is a pretty powerful drug. If this forum is still here, I think that I'll have plenty of bad news to post on here for a long time......and it didn't have to be this way...these criminals in financial services and in the government just couldn't resist. Most of "the rest of us" have a good portion of our net worth tied up in real estate, and this is a process to separate us from our net worth. The bottom 90 percent of us own just 32 percent of the entirety of assets in the US.....watch who those assets flow away from. in this process, and who they flow to.....it should be easy to figure out what the 2005 Bankruptcy "reform" act was intended to strangle. Let us watch to see who wakes up around here and who continues in blissful slumber. I predict that America is going to get to see the consequences of vote suppression since the 2000 election, as well as the consequences of the projection of the political influence of the christian right. |
One of the basic questions to ask when analyzing the economic impact of current events is who are the winners and who are the losers from an economic point of view. Short of major panic, when hedge funds fail the biggest losers are often the biggest risk takers. Buying a home has never been an overly risky investment. I guess some see the worst is yet to come, others don't.
From today's WSJ. Quote:
The folks at the Fed have been setting policy to slow the growth of the economy to fight inflation. They think inflation is now in their target range and have an optimistic outlook. Quote:
The size of our economy and its complexity says to me that the subprime issue will be but a small and temporary blip on the economic radar screen. {added} Here is more interesting info to put the "housing recession" into perspective (keep in mind that people gotta live somewhere) Quote:
So we see building permits for apartments up 17%, I am sure some can rationalize why that is insignificant, I just bring it up to see how it is rationalized. |
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Home ownership rates in this country are at all time highs even at current price levels. We have had an extended period of low and stable interest rates which has help a great deal. There are no indicators pointing to significant increases in interest rates or indicating that interest rates will become unstable. It is interesting, but the subprime mortagage issue actually helped many marginally qualified people to buy a first home. Perhaps the net affect will be that many average hard working people who never owned a home before benefited at the cost of the "fat cats" on Wall St. What is not being reported is the fact that the vast majority of these subprime loans are not in default and will never be in default. Some of these people will stabalize their credit, refinance with a "prime" loan, gain equity, and share in the American Dream of home ownership. To me that is a good thing.:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: |
Host,
Contrary to your original premise that the housing slump would create a domino affect on the economy, it appears that first the single family housing slump will be in-part offset by an increase in multi-unit residential construction. And it appears that the commercial real estate market is red hot as indicated by rising rents and lower vacancy rates. Perhaps some of the Miami condos will be converted, or more likely - rising commercial rents will lead to more commercial development. Smart money seems to be able to stay one step ahead of the headlines. Quote:
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Host, please let me know when you concede that your premise is wrong. |
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Good to see your continued interest in the subject, especially during a week of sell-offs in the equities market after a long and major run up.
There is some good news in the housing sector, but most economists are dismissing the good news. For example median prices of existing homes sales were up last month compared to the previous month and compared to last year. They say it could be because of a skewed mix of sales of higher valued homes. Inventories of existing homes are also down. They say this is offset by lower sales and people delaying putting their homes on the market. I think we are getting to the point of capitulation. The psychology of the market suggests that when there is nothing but bad news being reported, the worst has past. As a side note - Normally I would think you would be suspect of information coming from corporate America. If I were CEO of a company like Countrywide, what do you think I would do, given current market conditions? Here is what I would do. I would write-off and adjust as much as I could using the housing crisis as my reason (not violating the law, just being more aggressive in managing my balance sheet), so that a few years down the road I get my financial statements to look a bit better than they would have normally. I take my "hits" today, for a bigger payoff tomorrow. Perhaps now is the time to start dollar cost averaging back into homebuilder stocks. What do you think? Still believe there is room for shorting? |
Can you verify whether the reported, declining existing home inventories include the residences that are on the auction block because of foreclosures, or, in inventories like the one Countrywide is trying to sell?
It is my understanding that foreclosures, which are rapidly rising, are not included in MLS stats, and they are not part of home builders' unsold inventories....and the forced sales, the majority sold via foreclosure auctions, will, if not now, be sold "at any price". These are the sales, even if home builders cease all new building for the next five years....and they won't, they're still building, for example, in the area around where I live....hundreds of new units....that will weigh on the market and will negatively impact average selling prices.....count on it! ace....Countrywide would have a difficult time "moving" the 10,200 housing units, valued at over $2 billion, that it now finds itself "owning", if it did not make it's rising inventory, public. Since it is public information, folks analyze the data and the trend: http://countrywide-foreclosures.blog...203-homes.html http://www.countrywide.com/purchase/f_reo.asp ...it's a train wreck and it will feed on itself.....and it will take the entire US economy with it, as the rapid decline in cheap credit seems to indicate. This is a year old, ace....but it holds true, even more so, today...with the first time buyer unable to obtain a "liar loan" or a "time bomb" option ARM loan because of the sub-prime implosion, and the halt of the trend of rapidly rising appraised "value"....because liquidity can no longer be "injected" into the RE market by first time buyers who only qualified for loans that only "worked" if the valuations reliably went "up and up and up".....lower priced home sales diminish, with the "high end" the last to fall, because buyers of high priced homes have alternative methods of financing unavailable to first time and other assetless, former buyers. If fewer homes priced at the "low end" sell, and "high end" sales do not decline proportionally....sure, average selling prices will remain firm, or even rise a bit, but that statistic does not support an argument that the market is better than it seems at first glance. It actually means, IMO, that it is worse than it seems, because when first time buyers are not in the market, it will not be sustained by high end buyers....hence the dramatic decline in total numbers of housing units sold.....the largest decline in 16 years: Quote:
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He says he didn't see it coming is B.S. or he was blinded by greed. He gets paid to see this stuff coming. Quote:
What happened to the Bear Stern's hedge fund was an over reliance on leverage and taking on excessive risk. The same can be said for some homebuilders who used expensive options to control land. Now that the demand has lessened some of these options are worthless. Mortgage companies relaxed their loan underwriting standards because of the boom, and now it is coming back to hurt them. The funny thing is, that none of that has anything to due with the fundamentals of the real estate market and the intrinsic value of real estate. What we really have is a panic created by "Wall Street". |
DOW (DJIA) down 366 pts. right now..... foreclosed homes to be sold do not appear in MLS inventory stats....so, with foreclosures at multi-year highs, and rising....the "picture" is much worse, going forward, than this month's inventory of unsold homes "reduction", indicates.....
Today's decline of the DOW (just 30 stocks...hugely overvalued to distort the true, weakened total state of the US stock market.....) is the largest, on a number of total points, probably in at least 5 years. Bear Stearns stock is in a dramatic....like Country Wide Home Mortgage... <img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/3m/b/bsc"> "Things" are progressing as I predicted they would, when I started this thread. I don't think many here will believe, if they look back at this post, next November, (2008) how poor the state of the economy, at the time they are voting for the next US president, compared to the way that it is, now. The DOW and the Nasdaq and S&P indexes are suffering damage today that will seem slight, compared to how far all three have declined, 15 months from now. Oil is $77.00 per bbl today, it will be somewhat lower, with the US fully in recession, next year at this time..... |
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The DOW was 12,474 on 1/3/07 Today the DOW will close around 13,441 The S&P 500 was 1270 on 7/26/06 1416 on 1/3/07 and will close today around 1472 It is possible the market will decline further and it is possible that economic growth will stop long enough for the US to be considered in a recession. However, if that happens perhaps the FED will cease its slow growth anti-inflation posture and allow interest rates to fall. If interest rates fall there will be less pressure on ARM's and more people able to qualify for loans. If that happens demand will pick up - - then its off to the races again. The Countrywide CEO thinks that '09, '10 and '11 will be like '03, '04 and '05. I actually hope he is wrong, and that the real estate market in particular reverts back to its historical mean growth rate. |
Host, have I mentioned lately that you are once again at least six months ahead of the current news?
I hope the fish are biting. :) |
My mother has been saying this for more than a year, too, and no one listened to her either, lol.
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I have underestimated the markets reaction to the sub-prime catastrophe, but Host overestimates what it impact will be. I still hold the belief that most of what we are experiencing is an over-reaction but that reaction is real. The impacts outside of "sub-prime" is mostly on the margins, the underlying economy is strong. Currently the Federal Reserve is injecting liquidity into the market, many would argue that the Fed should have taken more aggressive action sooner, including lowering the discount rate. Two weeks ago, the Fed official position was to fight inflation and their concern over the economy growing too fast.
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Most people could care less about econometric measures. They judge the economy by their pocketbook and the judgment is generally that they are not better off then they were 4 or 8 years ago...millions of people in debt, and overextended, living from paycheck to paycheck.
Thats why host is right that it will definitely be a top issue in the 08 campaign. |
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That is a personal judgment that people make based on their own lifestyle, spending habits, debt, cost of living, ability to save, etc., not on national measures or indices.
I cant answer that for others, but I can say without doubt, I am reasonably well off or at least comfortable, but certainly not better off as a result of the Bush economic era. My income has not risen commensurate with my cost of living and my 401K has not risen as much as it did in the 90s. Those are my measures. My conclusion regarding how others feel about the economy is based on polls, which measure voter perceptions better than economic indices. Here is a recent one from the American Research Group, in which Bush's approval rating on handing the economy is lower than his abysmal overall approval rating: Overall, 23% of Americans say that they approve of the way George W. Bush is handling the economy, 73% disapprove, and 4% are undecided. Among registered voters, 23% approve and 72% disapprove of the way Bush is handling the economy. |
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How do you assign responsibility for our national economic conditions and in turn your individual economic condition?
National economic policies have long tails. It may take years and in some cases decades before the full impact of national economic policy changes are felt. For example a minimum wage increase, when will individuals feel the real impact? In July the minimum wage increased $.70/hour. The worker making less than $5.85 will feel an impact on his next pay check, that may be two weeks. Assuming a $.70 increase over 80 hours the individual will have $56 gross and less say they net 90% after taxes or $50.40. After 4 weeks or 160 hours he has $100.80, with the extra money the employee will have an immediate positive impact and if we multiply that by the number of minimum wage workers (also many above minimum would get salary increases), we should see an increase in consumption. If legislation is in place for future increases going beyond a current administration, who gets the credit of these pops in increased consumer spending? In California for example the minimum wage is already $7.50 and going to $8.00 in January. who gets the credit or blame for that? But wages paid are not in a vacuum. Businesses that employ minimum wage workers faces increased costs. With those increased costs, and typically a longer-term reaction. Over time the business will absorb the increased costs, lowering profits, lowering possible investments in growth, lowering taxes paid, etc. Or the business may increase prices or a combination of both. So first we have the short-term pop in consumer spending, then we have the malaise of reduced business spending or we have offsetting inflation or a combination. Let's say this happens about 12 months after the minimum wage increase. Again, crossing administrations who gets the credit and who gets the blame? What happens if business reduces the numbers of employees hired? What if there is an impact on seasonal hires, that impact may take over a year before it is felt. So now we have inflation or lower business profitability. What happens next? How long does it take? What happens with other economic policies or laws, perhaps issues planned decades ago. Let's look at say Roth IRA's, let's say now more people are using Roth's than ever, let's say many people have taken advantage to converting conventional IRA's to Roth's and paying taxes to do so. Guess what? The Government gets a pop in tax collections in current terms, but will get a decline in taxes decades down the road when people start taking out their Roth IRA earnings tax free. Then the government increases tax rates. Who gets the credit, who gets the blame? As you may see, we can go on with this for a long time with real policies that will have real impact on the economy over the short term and over the long term. My question stays the same who get the credit and who the blame? While you guys may attribute being better off or worse off to the President currently in office I don't. Our economy is far to complicated, being better off or worse off is a personal responsibility. Everyone has an equal opportunity to know the "rules". If they are winning or loosing the game, depends on decisions made by individuals - short of our government going to extremes one way or the other. |
All of that may be true (or not, and I would say not), but most Americans dont think that way when they are sitting around the kitchen table wondering if they can afford a new car, or how they will pay for their kids college, or what would happen if one spouse looses their job when over the last 6 years, they have been unable to save or worse, are just scraping by making ends meet.
They hear Bush talk about how great the economy is and they hear their Republican members of Congress say how the Bush tax cuts helped most Americans..and they shake their heads (15% from the poll above say their personal/household financial situation is getter better). Thats why the economy is always a top issue come election time. It contributed to the Republican losses in 06 (according to many exit polls) and it will be a top issue in 08 regardless of whether your economic analysis is right or wrong. |
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