shakran

What you call elitist bullshit I call mature debating. You seem to be saying you'd like this forum to descend into an anarchic free-for-all in which anyone can spew any crap they want without being called on it.

Political debate requires at least two sides. If everyone runs and hides under a rock the minute someone says something they don't agree with, you don't have much debate.

The number of contradictions here is staggering. First you say move on when you don't agree, and then you complain that people want you to shut up rather than give your opinion. Not to mention the fact that you're not exactly moving on by disagreeing with me. Let's be realistic here. If someone spouts what you feel is bullshit, you should call them on it. Period.

You thought wrong. You have the right to speak your opinion without getting arrested for it. If your opinion disagrees with mine, then *I* too have the right to speak my opinion. I'm sorry that you view disagreement with YOUR (meaning you, Pan, not the collective you) opinion as harassment, but that's simply not the case.

Acting as though fundamental truths are 99% opinion and should therefore be welcomed with open arms is cowering from the debate.

Pan it sounds to me like you're saying you don't see the point of this forum at all. If you don't like debate, and you don't like it when someone contradicts you, then that's your perogative, but don't expect to find a happy home in a forum that is defined BY debate.

And that's the point. Of course it's opinion. When did opinion become bad?

And if I post that I believe the world is flat and Europe doesn't exist and it's all anti-religious bullshit, you don't think I should have SOMETHING to back me up on that? Dude I can sit here and make stuff up all day long, but if that's the kind of crap you want this forum to devolve into I think you're going to be sorely disappointed. There's no point in debating with someone if they're just making up the facts that led to their opinion as they go along. If you want people to realize you're not just inventing lies in order to support your fantasy world opinion, then you're going to have to show us where you got your facts. That's just how it works.


No, Politics became one of the more intelligent political debate forums on the internet. You don't see a bunch of crap in here about Bush being a closet nazi or Clinton (Mrs) being a closet lesbian because people in here realize that you can't just spout cheap bullshit without being called on it. Now unfortunately some OTHER people around here have decided that's "elitist bullshit," presumably because they can't be bothered to actually inform themselves of the issues before jumping to an opinion. All opinions are welcome here, but you'd better know the facts underlying those opinions or you'll get crucified. And frankly, that's how it should be. You can find PLENTY of forums out there where you can make shit up or form an opinion that's not based on the real world at all. Do we want to copy them, or do we want to set a higher standard? My vote's for the latter.

roachboy

what shakran said.

all i'll add to it is a simple statement: opinion is interpretation and interpretation is based on something. presenting information along with an interpretation opens up debate around the question of how well the interpretation fits the information.
from there everything is fair game: the quality of the information, it's political perspectives, the logic of the interpretation, the consequences of the interpretation. all of it.
remove the information and you remove the exchange of ideas.

i do not know why you would want that.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

mixedmedia

You may, shakran, but not everyone bothers with information to back up their statements as to GW's mental capacity because they are not meant as serious propositions needing back-up but as low blows. The tone of this thread seemed to suggest to me that the only low blows and inflammatory rhetorical allegations being dealt in this politics forum are coming from the right. From my observation this is not true. That is my point.

I'll stand by my assertion that one can find information to support their political opinions but that does not necessarily give their political opinions more basis in FACT because the fludity of truth and fact will very rarely conform to the rigors of America's republican and democratic ideological molds.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

pan6467

No, I just don't believe people need to put up pages upon pages of bullshit that they find on the internet that back them up, when I can find the same crap.

.

But debate is done with respect not personally attacking as you have done in your reply to me (and yes, there were personal attacks as I will show later).


No, I said move on if you don't like the post and feel it is bullshit and cannot civilly reply to the person. If you have to personally attack the person or their belief in a way that is demeaning (much like you did in your reply)... then move on. NOONE should be demeaned and talked down to for their beliefs.... that is elitist, holier than thou, "I'm right and you're just stupid" attitudes and those have no place in debate.

Attacking the idea and showing where there are holes but treating the person with respect and allowing them dignity and the oppurtunity to see another side is true debate.

If I say Bush is destroying the economic infrastructure and I give my reasons and opinion based on my experiences and what I believe and then you argue the opposite, based on your experiences and beliefs.... we may show each other something that we can think about and influence our opinions as well as others who maybe reading.

But, if in your reply you ignore what I said, or rip it apart with no respect and showing no interest in what I believe and why.... then you are just flat out attacking and you won't change anyone's views.

No, you can disagree with my views and ideas all you want.... however, when you attack me personally for my ideas and views... you are then in a way trying to censor what I say and believe.

Look at the tone, the attitude of what your reply was and tell me you gave respect and could see my side.... You can't you believe your side to be 100% right and when I made my post you had to rip me personally... not the idea.

You don't want to debate you want to destroy me and my views. You want what I said to look foolish, ignorant and unintelligible so that you can feel good about yourself and believe you won something.


What truths? Politics is not about truth..... it's all about winning people over to your beliefs on how the government should be run.

As I stated and you seem to not touch on, you can find 10 pages of bullshit supporting your beliefs, I can find 10 pages of bullshit supporting mine.... it all comes down to opinion.

Take global warming for instance...... some say it is man made.... some say the Sun is overly active and Mars' icecaps melting show it's not just us, thus it's not manmade, some say it's just hooey, period.

You take a stance and get piles of bullshit proof, I take a stance get piles of bullshit proof.... neither of us have done anything but supply others with piles of bullshit.

Tell people in your own words why you believe what you believe... (I'm not saying don't have the proof at hand, use links... use parts that show what you want shown.... but don't bog the people down).

I like debate, Ace and I have had some very good debates, Stevo and I have had some very good debates.... we never once had to attack the other, we could show respect for each other while at the same time getting our points across. We didn't have to rely on just posting articles and saying, "Yeah, what this said." We pushed each other to be intelligent and to show why we believed what we did.

It is far more intelligent and harder to support your ideas and beliefs when you have to actually think for yourself then just post some articles and say, "yeah...." or attack the other person and show them or their beliefs no respect.



Opinion is a part of individuality, it is part of what makes us all different, of course it is good..... but the attacking someone personally, treating them as lessers, acting superior over someone because their opinion differs from yours is wrong.


First od all, I am not an elephant's phallic hair, so I am not a "DUDE".....

Ok so you post crazy ass bullshit, soon noone reads your posts, you get no replies, you get no audience.

I look at what your doing and what I see is someone trying to take what Isay to extremes and read more into what I wrote than what was truly there.

And you show your elitism and holier than thouism...... ordinary people can't debate, they'll say stupid shit and not have anything to back it up... only those of us that are educated and read the news truly know what is going on and thus only OUR views count. Unless you have 10 pages of bullshit, you have nothing to add.

My belief is that your post was to justify the elitism and to keep things the same in an area that is dying rather than face the truth.... the truth is there are some here that just want to keep politics bogged down with pages of bullshit and as Mixed put it....lowblows and bullshit but sourced only from those sources they agree with.


Of course what do I know, I just spent 1/2 writing this post, doing exactly what I accuse you of doing, being holier than thou.

Awww fuck it my views are right, I am right you're just a peon. (BTW that was meant in humor and sarcasm.)

What I find amazing and Mixed just touched on this...... the lefties here seem to like the board the way it is....... the reason they may not want change is because then people from the Right may actually come back and true debates and ideas will be exchanged from newcomers..... and their monopoly and hate tactics will have to cease.

(BTW..... I am far more left than Right but I see what some are doing in politics chasing away the Righties and not having any debates at all.)

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

Take this example a step further....and assume none of us have the expertise to make an informed decision without additional information. What is wrong with bringing relevant source information into the discussion?

The question of the value of sources arises when a secondary source like a glib editorial that attribute global warming to cow flatuence is given the same weight as primarry sources (like the International Panel on Climate Control report or a contradictory scientific report on the impact of solar flares).

I would suggest that discussions without a knowledge base are more irrelevant and provide less of a learning opportunity than sharing source information for others to judge.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Charlatan

Too be clear, bringing your research to back you up is *always* a good thing. The only real issue that people have had with this is that some have posted way to many articles into one post and it makes it quite intimidating for some.

The new HIDE tags will allow the poster to write their opinion and back it up with all sorts of information while highlighting the relevant portions of the article. Those who care to read further and do so as before.

Again, research and support materials are a good thing and arguably essential to good debate.

The only issue I see here is how to convince others that your source material is worthy. But that is another debate in itself.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

pan6467

Yes, having facts backing up what you say is a good thing, however, posting just articles and saying "yeah..." and not paraphrasing and putting in your own thoughts and ideas is inane and proves nothing.

I come here to be challenged and to learn, I do not come for petty, elitists who treat people's opinions, experiences and ideas as less than worthy of this place.

I find it funny that they will complain about threads but post in them.

If the thread isn't a gun control fight or a Bush sucks fight..... it has to become one. Facts be damned people's feelings be damned the true OP be damned.....

You don't like the post or poster you put them on ignore..... you don't attack them, it's juvenile and shows no class.

You want to debate, great. You want to teach great. You want to attack and fight, I feel you should take it elswhere where it's acceptable or everyone agrees 100% with you and never doubts your sources or has sources of there own to disprove your sources.

It's about growth and learning..... I thank God I am not as militant about my views as I was 15 years ago, Hell, 3 years ago in some aspects. Because, all militant does is make the other side militant and compromise, respect and the working together that is necessary to run this country goes out the window. All you are left with is hatred, distrust and anger. Nothing but negativity.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

mixedmedia

I don't mean to say that links to articles, data and other information to back up your claims are meaningless, worthless or insignificant. Just that said information isn't necessarily persuasive or beyond doubt regardless of how reputable the source. And I am speaking only for myself and where I am...where my head is at.

And I want to make clear that I didn't mean to infer that I do not respect host and the depth and breadth of his knowledge, as I am aware it probably sounded. Looking back I realize that in my haste I neglected to touch on the fact that, when host uses his own words (displaying the network of his own thoughts and conclusions) I am always impressed. Even if I don't agree. It's just that, again speaking only for myself, the excessive amount of reading material he provides does not encourage me to follow his line of reasoning.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

roachboy

honestly, pan, i have just read your last two posts and i haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about.
and i am kinda fed up with how you act here, so let me tell you a couple things that i would assume you already know:

what i see when i read your posts is an amazing level of barely controlled anger---it seems often to build on itself--all because you seem to confuse resistance to your arguments with a lack of respect for you as a human being.

this must be true because otherwise your reactions would make no sense. you know what i mean: when you are confronted with disagreement---and particularly when that disagreement engages with you directly you react with:
"you--and those fucking "militants" just like you---are wrecking the country"
or
"we could all pull together as a big happy team if it wasnt for you and those other fucking leftists"
or
"you elitist prick, stop persecuting me"
or a variation (you get a fair sample above)

in all of this, you extend no respect whatsoever to those of us who disagree with you politically: yet you never seem to tire of demanding it for yourself.
how do you manage that?

you get what you give, friend.
and a respectful environment does not start with treating people who disagree with you as persecuting phantasms. it just doesn't.
if you really want to change the tone of this forum, you might start with your own.
just a suggestion.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

smooth

I don't understand it either...and worse, I watched you come from a place that was much different and the slide over what has been at least a year long process.

I guess the best description I can give of what I've fealt is, ok so you to seem like some kind of liberal but then you started to "see what they were saying" and the actual underpinning of your posts seemed to change...that is, you would claim, "look, I'm a leftist and I'm in agreement with seaver, why can't the rest of you do what I'm doing" but your actual content looked like it changed to me. I would think to myself, what is pan talking about.

and then my opinions degenerated more when you would start these kinds of persecution posts. that's how I felt from what I was reading, I have no idea about the facts of the matter. I could honestly be, along with members like roachboy and host, viewed by a pile of other members as part of an elitist cadre, the militant leftist contingency on tfp, or whatever. but I don't have any idea, I've never read anything like that in our posts, least of all shakran's.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

shakran

If that's a commentary on Host's posting method, then I see where you're coming from. I'll admit I don't always read through the reams of information he posts myself, and I'm on his side. On the other hand, it IS really nice to see a guy who can back up EVERY SINGLE FACT he talks about by citing sources, and who's willing to do that.

I was attacking your ideas, not you personally. I do not feel one has to do the "well I understand and respect your ideas but perhaps you could look at it this way" to get a point across. That's frankly for PC BSers, and I don't have much patience for them. State your opinon. Be blunt about it. We're big boys and girls. We can take it.


To a point I agree with you. However I must admit that I don't have the patience to be supportive and encouraging when someone says something appallingly stupid. I was in a discussion once about violence on TV where one participant kept telling everyone the only solution was to outlaw television. I tried to be nice. I really did, but on about the 5th time he espoused that brilliant idea I said what everyone else was thinking, and what frankly needed to be said. If an idea is abjectly stupid, we should have the freedom to say that. If I call your idea stupid, that doesn't mean it's a personal attack on you, and it doesn't mean you have to sit there and take it either. If you don't think your idea is stupid, then tell us why. If it's really not stupid, I'd be the one to look like an idiot, not you.



And that's exactly what I did in my reply to you. I picked your ideas apart. I did not call you an idiot, or any other name.



Difficult to respond to this one, since you and I agree on Bush's handling of the economy But if I were wrong and thought that Bush was doing fine with the economy, I should pick your statement apart, if possible. Truly good ideas cannot be logically picked apart. Sure, you can pick 'em apart with stupid BS, but the folks around here are generally smart enough to see through that.

I am not attacking you personally. I'm sorry if you feel that I am.

It is not necessary for me to see your side. No, I can't see your side. You're wrong here. 100% flat out wrong. That doesn't mean you're an idiot. It doesn't mean I don't see your side in other threads you participate in. But you are arguing the polar opposite to what I am arguing. As far as tone, we both used the same tone in our respective posts. You told me "With all due respect Shakran, that is elitist bullshit." Calling my idea elitist bullshit isn't exactly respectful, and if you think that putting the "with all due respect" in front of it tones it down you're sorely mistaken. Are you suggesting that all I had to do in my reply was start it out with "with all due respect" and you'd have been totally fine with everything else I said? Look, you bashed my idea because you 100% disagree with it. That's OK. I'm a big kid now, I can take it. Honest. I didn't get mad. I didn't even get irritated.

I think that's the problem with this board. Some people want us to spend a crapload of time being syrupy-nice to each other. That's simply not needed. I don't have a personal problem with anyone in here. Do I disagree with 'em? Hell yes. Ustwo and I have bashed each other's ideas for a VERY long time now. And ya know what? When we agree with each other, here or in another forum, we joke about it. He and I disagree. Doesn't mean I don't respect or dislike him or vice versa. I think his political ideas are completely wrong, and he thinks the same about mine. That doesn't mean we have to sit there complimenting and "respecting" each other for half an hour before we get down to the debate.


I'll tell ya something. If I needed an internet political forum to feel good about myself, I'd have a lot more problems than even you apparently think I have. I'm not here to feel good about myself. I'm here because I enjoy debating. Debate is a competition. It's like sports, only fat people like me can play too I hold no illusions that I'm going to totally change people's worldview. I will NEVER convince Ustwo that the dems are right and the republicans are wrong. Simply won't happen. But ya know what? I don't need to, nor do I care to. However, if Ustwo and I debate it out, those who are more on the fence might be exposed to our ideas and make a choice themselves. He doesn't have to cite sources, but he's gonna look awful foolish if he doesn't. Same goes for me.

As for this particular discussion, yes I'm absolutely out to show that you are wrong (though I'm not out to destroy you). You are trying to turn this forum into Philosophy 2.0. Political debate is rough and tumble by its very nature, and dammit, that's OK. There's absoultely nothing wrong with that. As long as we aren't turning to personal attacks (you're an idiot, what are you stupid, etc) it's OK to show why other people's ideas are wrong.

And how am I supposed to do that if I'm not supposed to attack and/or destroy the ideas that do not agree with those beliefs?


Actually it all comes down to who has the most logical opinion and has the best facts to support it. I can cite documents by the flat-earth society (yes, it actually exists, believe it or not) "proving" that the world is flat. You can cite a globe and a picture of the earth from the shuttle. Who wins, me with screwey documents written by a collective of nutjobs, or you with concrete evidence?

Now, you can choose not to cite sources if you want, but then you take the risk that if I'm a good enough debater, I might just convince someone that the world is flat.

True. So we look into the sources. Who cites the most reliable sources. Turns out that most of the sources cited by the "it's just hooey period" crowd are studies undertaken by scientists working for, or for whom the project has at least been paid for by, the oil companies. Funny, but I don't consider that a very unbiased scientific source.

Well I never suggested that we should cite bullshit sources. Frankly if you go and cite a bullshit source, you're gonna get ripped apart, and rightfully so. But if you hit me with several reliable, trusted sources, it's gonna be much harder for me to argue back.


Here we agree. Cite sources. I don't feel it is necessary to post the ENTIRE source.


Well I don't think many of us are just posting articles and then parroting them. My style is to tell you the facts (here's fact 1, fact 2, fact 3) and then tell you that BECAUSE of these facts, such and such is true. You can then either attack my sources, attack my conclusions, or both.

Um. . . .What?


Well then I'd better learn to back up that crazy assed bullshit to prove that it isn't. . . . or I'd better not post crazy assed bullshit, hadn't I?


You're wrong.


And you accuse me of taking YOUR ideas to extremes? I never said ordinary people can't debate. Anyone can debate. But if they don't debate smart - i.e. have sources to back up what they claim as fact - they can expect to get nailed for it. That's not elitist any more than it's elitist to expect a kid to get the right answers on the math test before you mark the answers as being correct.

Your belief is 100% wrong. What I want to see happen, frankly, is for people to buck up. I see too much shit on the other forums around here whining about how "mean" politics is and how people are afraid to come in here and how they're "allergic" to it, and all I can think is, WHY. We have 41 other forums where we can be nice to each other and not attack each other's ideas. What in hell is wrong with one where we can (intelectually, non-personally) mix it up? If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, but don't bitch to everyone that the stove is warm. It's supposed to be that way.

No, we dont' want to see pages of bullshit. I'd like to see moderation concentrate on citing decent sources. If more people were held to the idea of citing real sources instead of "dood bush sucks and everyone knows it" type of crap that we see so much of around here.

And ya know what? That's OK. You have the right to your opinion, and you have the right to express it. And I don't mind that you disagree with me. Really.




Actually if you'll look back before the republicans took their infamous "thumpin" there were plenty of republicans in here, and they were spouting just as much bullshit as anyone from the left. I don't think the right has abandoned politics because we're too mean. I think they've abandoned politics because it's now impossible for them to tell us "you're wrong, we're the majority, deal with it." It's gotten VERY difficult for someone on the right to win a debate because their party has been mismanaged to the hilt by Bush and unfortunately many don't make a distinction between a real republican (which we haven't seen in office since before Carter was president) and the neo-con crap that Bush et al puts forward.

host

Guys.....guys....!!!! In the last 1-1/2 days here, you have reinforced the idea, and maybe just as....or more importantly....the feeling, that we share here at this forum is akin to a family relationship. At times, it appears to be dysfunctional....akin, again, to the experiences of being a part of any one of our families in the "real" world.

In our politics forum "family", the "daddy" came home here to spend time with us for the first time....in a long while. He observed that I was breaking a rule that he had defined and warned me before, not to break....as did some of my older brothers....aka mods and admins....

I felt the sting of his words....in the form of a public rebuke, and a new thread OP that I had stayed up half a night researching and compiling, was criticized by "daddy", and closed before it attracted any replies from the rest of the "family".

Then, other family members came by to weigh in on their opinion of me, and my contribution to "our family", aka the tfp politics forum. "Daddy" received both praise and frank criticism for the stand he took with me.

"Daddy" posted things that were supportive of my contribution and participation, and he went out of his way to come up with a board "fix" that would permit me to continue posting full articles and/or lengthy excerpts, while giving all other members and readers the opportunity to view a much shorter, streamlined version of my posts, with the option of viewing all of the content of each quote box in a given post.....or not....

"Daddy" PM'ed me with a description of his "fix", and asked me if I was willing to work with this solution.

Since I've so recently felt the effect of strong public criticism from "daddy", and to a lesser degree from other family members here, as well as the effect of support and praise from family members who posted in my support, even in strong defense in my favor, and directly against "daddy", I post now in support of our brother, pan....

my brothers, roachboy and smooth..... I know for a fact that pan is about committing to truly listening, and opening himself to learning from, if...after listening to members of our family who espouse opposing ideas and principles to ours....there is anything to learn from their positions on political issues.

He is about setting aside our partisan ways....because the place to start, if we want those who disagree with us, to be less partisan....to truly listen and be open to learning, begins within each of us in this family. He believes he has blinked first, offered respect.....tried to convey an atmosphere of one "side" here....one family....

Our brother, politicophile has come back to be in our posting family. A few days ago, others, and I....on another forum, urged him to rejoin us here as a regular participant within our politics forum family.

It was reconfirmed to me, yesterday and today, from other members of "my family".....that my effort here is "worth it"....that I am more appreciated than, more widely read than....."daddy", in his initial frustration and exercise of his authority, claimed that I was.

I want to <b>emphasize to pan now.....that he is worthy of my strong support....his participation here is highly regarded, as is the renewed participation of politicophile, and that both have my respect.</b>

I support "Daddy", Halx, in his effort to make this a better, more inclusive site, and forum, I respect the fact that he is "the owner", and I ask that he consider that he provides the "canvas", and we provide the painted images on the canvas....the content.....that this makes us his "partners", that the site and it's functionality alone, are "the house", but our residence here is what makes this a family that he and us are all members of. The tfp site has taken on a life of it's own, just as individual threads, or posts do the same....on a smaller scale....in ways that we often have not anticipated.

All of our claims.....of site ownership, of site membership, of being a part of the politics forum family, in no way diminish the claims of anyone else here. We all benefit from the interaction and exchange of ideas....by the effort we put into participating here.

....and pan.... I am wrestling with this challenge....how can I open myself to opposing ideas and opinions in these mercurial times..... to commit to being "less partisan"....so that they, of opposite perspectives and sympathies will....too, encouraged by the example that you are already setting...... without me being in conflict with this?:
....and to my sister, Elphaba..... where do you think you are going off to? Get back here ! Please??

Ch'i

Thank you, uncle host. Your words are poignant.

Charlatan

Nice post Host... thank you.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

ubertuber

Well said host.

Onward and upward for Tilted Politics.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Bill O'Rights

Host...this is probably the first post of yours that I've read the whole way through in...months. Maybe even years. Well put. And...entertaining as well.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Elphaba

Go? Me?

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

pan6467

Thank you for the very kind words and the respect is mutual Host.

Welcome back Politico.........

As for trying to be open...... maybe as I am turning 40 soon it's a midlife crisis, but I look at the hypocracy in my life and views and try to deal with them, learn from them and be done with them.

In all honesty, I think it is driving me crazy, because I am also coming to see that it is impossible not to be hypocritical at times.

I think my posts show that, in the times when I talk about others being self righteous and espouse my views..... that in and of itself is hypocritical of me because I am pointing out the splinter in one's eye and while acknowledging the log in mine, continue to do so.

But that's life and I am working on that.... driving me batshit, but life is getting very much more mellow and happier because of it.

As for politics, look at the other side, look at what you, yourself take advantage of, the tax breaks, etc. and realize that both sides truly want what is best for the country, but if we go to far in either direction we are doomed, so we need balance and compromises.... moderation.

When seeing that look on common ground between the 2 sides and find a solution. Listen with open mind, respect, an honest heart, and erase all preconcieved prejudices. When they are done, give your side, explain in detail how you came to your beliefs and hopefully, the other person and you can work out a middle ground beneficial to all.

Just remember, every opinion, belief and philosophical idea in politics has a reverse side to it...... somewhere in the middle of each issue is the truth.... don't be so sure your side is the only truth, because then the other side is sure and nothing gets done. If both sides see that there is indeed a middle and need to compromise.... then you can work to find it in a positive manner. If not negativity is the environment in which the bill is passed and thus negativity will be the end result.

You want to win people to your side, show how negative the other side is and how willing you are to put aside your beliefs to find what's best for all, not just you, your party, whatever.

It starts at the bottom and works its way up...... so yes, I am a believer that it can start here. That by my example I may influence some, who in turn can influence some and so on, until there are enough people that believe, that Wash. the state gov'ts. the cities and so on... the political parties and so on will have no choice but to listen.

Positive energy flows uphill and thus it has to start small and work harder, but lasts longer. Negativity, flows from the top down and thus doesn't have to work at all and gets worse as it pours down.

That's why positive can beat negativity...... positivity has to work harder and is stronger because of it. Negativity is weak and easy. Human nature says take the easy way... but to better mankind and the fututre we need take the hard way.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

The_Dunedan

Does this mean I get to be a Crazy Uncle? :-)

Seriously, Host, that was cool. Very well said, my friend.