FailedEagle

With Hilary and Obama both organizing Presidential Exploritory Committees, if both are on the democratic ballot, who do you vote for?

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Rekna

It is a bit early to really know as I don't know where either of them stand completely on the issues but for now i'm voting for Obama. I think fresh blood could do a lot in the presidency. Plus 10 years from now I don't want every conservative still saying suchandsuch is Clinton's fault

Willravel

Between the two options, and assuming I'd ever vote Democrat, I'd vote for Obama One Kanobi. He is a very smart and capable man.

cj2112

I'm gonna have to go with the ABC camp...Anybody But Clinton

The_Jazz

Bill Richardson still has my vote, but if we're limiting it to these two, Obama's the very obvious choice for me. My friends that are active in the Democratic party in Chicago have been singing his praises for 4 years at least.

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dc_dux

I thought I was the only Bill Richardson vote. He is announcing tomorrow.

Among the three, Hillary probably has the broadest and deepest policy background on issues across the board, but weighed down with such huge negatives. Obama has demonstrated a unique combination of personality (the ability to connect with people) and depth, so he would get my vote if the choice came down to one or other. We need somone approaching a real "uniter, not a divider" in '08; Obama may be the best hope.

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Elphaba

Has anyone else noticed that the "mean machine" is already going after Obama? The right wants to run against Clinton. 2008 is going to have a great lineup of Democratic hopefuls for a change. As much as I loved McCain for 2000, I've lost all faith in the man for 2008. Presently, there doesn't appear to be a Republican candidate to beat him.

In answer to the op, it's Obama at this point. I would want to know more about who he would be bringing in to support him before I could get excited about his prospects.

highthief

Hillary - she did very well from 1992 to 2000!

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Lizra

I voted Hillary. A great deal imo, 2 for the price of one. Bill Clinton is part of her package....and he's my favorite president of the last 30 years...hell yeah! I'm voting Hillary....can't wait!

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Willravel

Reallary?

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pan6467

Neither. I would vote for Edwards, Gore, Mario Cuomo (if he somehow came out of the woodwork), I can think of several others.... but Obama and Hillary... um no. Maybe for V.President but not for Pres.

I would even vote GOP just to NOT have either of those in office if either won the nomination.

(I could change on Obama, I flip flop on him.... but Shrillary No f'n way.)

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Willravel

WHAT?! but....but....you're serious?

Lizra

Gore? I love me some Big Al ...I voted for him once. ...but look what I got! A 10 gallon pea brain in pointy boots......

Serioully ....what's everybody so afraid of Mrs Clinton for?

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loquitur

Hillary is my senator, and although I didn't like her initially, she has done a very good job in the Senate. She has shown flexibility, adaptability, diligence and a whole lot of other good qualities. That being said, I think a Hillary presidency would be bad for the country. She should remain in the Senate, where she is doing a good job. If you think the partisan divisiveness is bad now, just wait until Hillary gets into the White House - it'll make the partisan stupidity of the last 14 years look like a walk in the park.

That doesn't mean I like Obama for President. He's smart and charismatic, but almost totally untested, and he has zero executive experience. For VP I think he'd be great - get him positioned for the future. He's still young and will be a great candidate down the road.

flstf

Hillary has too many negatives to win the general and Obama looks too young. Unless the Republicans totally screw up I don't think either one can win the popularity contest for President.

As it stands now I imagine the nomination is Hillary's unless the anti-war crowd derails her. A lot depends on how far left the Democrat and how far right the Republican has to go to win their party's nomination.

Lizra

Why do you think Mrs Clinton would so greatly increase partisan devisivness?

Would this increase be something she would deliberately cause by her actions? Or would it be because for some republicans, she is the "one they love to hate the most"? (I always just figured that she was the one they thought most likely to win an election, so the devisive ones began the whole "hate hilary" thing years ago).
Do you think she is just an angry woman with an ax to grind or something? Hell, after the last 8 years....everybody is angry!

I'm just curious.....I stll don't quite understand why many hate her so.....except because their talk radio hosts instruct them to.

I wouldn't mind seeing a take charge woman get in there and try to clean things up a bit....it's a nasty job, but she sort of knows what she's getting into. (plus she has Bill to help)
With Obama....I'm not sure if he's not biting off more than he can chew..... Running mates will help....I like my senator....Evan Bayh.

Ok....what ARE these negatives I keep hearing about!

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mixedmedia

I voted Barack Obama, but just for the record, I am a democrat who still loves Hillary.

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powerclown

I think Hillary Clinton as President Of The United States would drive the islamofascists completely nuts.
A great and massive psychological blow to the movement.
Perhaps they just might surrender or honorkill themselves en masse, in complete befuddlement.
For while they keep their women in burlap sacks, America appoints one as the most powerful person on the planet.
That in itself could be a greater victory in the "war on terror" than any military battle of the type they wage these days.

flstf

This is not how I feel but what I perceive:

She's a woman.
She's a carpetbagger Senator from a liberal state.
She rode in on the coat tails of her husband.
Her demeaner inspires dislike from a large percentage of the population.
She made fun of Tammy Wynette.

Willravel

I'm not afraid of her, I just wouldn't vote for her.

She supports the war on Iraq, despite the fact that her constituants were by far against it (unwilling to admit a mistake). She said she wouldn't run for president or vice president, but here we are (she values politiking more than her word). She has always and will always straddle, so as never to offend anyone (indecisive and weak). She has long standing ties to Wal-Mart (there must have been a sale on revolving doors). She is best known becuase she has ridden the coat tails of her husband, and really isn't known for her own acomplishments. She is even trying to pass a law that would imprison the creators of violent games (lives in fear, is unable to do the research into voilence in children). In 2000, she urged her hurband to veto a condemnation of Israel's treatment of Palestine, and continues to focus on improving our relationship with Israel. Clinton opposes gay marriage.

Paq

how about obama pres and hillary vp?

that's enough to make me vote twice for her

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host

Dc-dux, I would like to read your reaction to this Steve Clemons piece on Bill Richardson, and your opinion of both of them, as far as the integrity of each.

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001884.php

I was surprised to read what Clemons had to say. I agree that Richardson has no chance other than to run a symbolic campaign and get in the way of more promising prospects. I share Clemons opinion of Richardson, but his accusations are news to me.

Seaver

I want Hillary to get the nomination. Why? Because the last thing I want is to be called racist because I live in the South and won't vote for Obama.

Sadly this isn't a joke. We ALL know if a pro-gun control liberal is nominated he/she will have a VERY hard time carrying the rural states. This will inevitably make it's face shown about how White Southerners are not ready for a black president even though his race (I hope) won't even be an issue for the vast majority of people.

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dc_dux

Host...I've heard the accusations about Richardson. Others describe him as just an outgoing "schmoozer" (picture something between Bush's back-slapping good ole boy style and Clinton's lusty womanizing approach) whose style may make some uncomfortable. He probably should tone it down if he wants to play in the national arena. He also can play hardball politics with the best of them as was evident by his position on Bolton, something he was passionate about from his own experience as UN ambassador. His lack of diligence as Energy Secy is a more serious shortcoming that he will have to deal with in the campaign.

I dont think he will get in the way of other candidates. He brings a unique perspective to the campaign as a red (or purple) state Dem with moderate positions on immigration, gun control, welfare, energy/environment. I imagine he will more likely be in a position to consolidate his supporters around the major candidate of his choosing at some point that will broaden that candidate's support.

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pan6467

I just think she is a female George W. and would be unwilling to work with others.

Bill Clinton was a great president, but wasn't given much ability to lead as the GOP were constantly at him. This will continue with Hillary. Plus, as liberal as I am, as much as I like the Dem Party and have supported it.... I flatly refuse to have her represent me. I never liked her personality, her demeanor, the way she talks to people, her attitude and so on. Bill is very charismatic... Hillary, to me is the opposite.



EXCUSE ME?????? My talk show radio host?????? Lol.... I must now be a "Dittohead". So, even if I am a liberal, and I am a democrat and I have written numerous posts deflating Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and the radio talking heads and I have voted for 1 GOP candidate my entire life..... I must now follow the Right Winged talk show hosts..... all because I have a tremendous dislike and fear of Shrillary??????

Just this thread alone, shows the attack mode her supporters are in... and then they want to say the partisan divide won't be so bad????? WTF? You're distancing diehard Dems by the above attitude. You just maybe so blinded by that..... that you believe whatever she and her camp tell you....

I have no problem with a woman president.... as long as I trust her and believe she is best qualified.... Shrillary, with or without Bill.... is not one I trust, believe qualified or would ever support.

I agree, I don't think Obama has enough experience. But the issue with me is he is playing the reverse race card..... "I'm black," he says to affiliate himself with the NAACP, Jackson, and so on..... yet he moves me away because he is HALF BLACK... his mother is lily white. I just dislike the way he is trying to use his race for this, I've lost a lot of respect for the man.

Bayh, is a very good man and if he were to get his name out more could be a spoiler candidate and definately a very good VP candidate.


You have them above but MY opinion, belief and feeling of Shrillary:

SHE IS A FEMALE GEORGE W. BUSH AND WOULD RATHER DESTROY THIS COUNTRY THROUGH THE HATE MONGERING SHE KNOWS WOULD HAPPEN, THEN TO FULFILL HER OBLIGATION IN THE SENATE AND PROVE THROUGH THAT OFFICE SHE CARES MORE ABOUT THE COUNTRY THAN THE OFFICE SHE HOLDS. FEMALE GEORGE W. IN DEM NAME ONLY, THAT'S ALL SHE IS

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

ASU2003

Didn't you hear? Obama is a muslim now.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5xfUD8R3P...elated&search=



This is going to be a long campaign.....It's not even 2008 yet.

Lizra

I didn't mean "you" Y-O-U dude....just people who do follow the talking gas bags .....

Dang! I just can't imagine she'd be all that bad! Well....I'd take her and Bill over the newbie.
I was so bummed Bayh dropped out, but it was Obama this and Obama that....silly people....

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aKula

I would choose Obama. Hillary Clinton is too much of a demagogue for my liking. I wouldn't support her for the reasons Willravel listed above; especially for her initial support of the Iraq war. Obama's position has more legitimacy as he was opposed to it from the start.

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host

pan....I dislike her and I don't think that she can win because it's probably not time yet for anyone who isn't from the sunbelt, but especially not a female democrat, to win in the 2008 generall election.

I don't wish the presidency on a democrat because I am convinced that there is only one way to avoid the coming collapse of the exchange rate of the US currency. That way is to leverage the US malinvestment in the military....and quickly, like in the next 30 months.....to dictate terms of immediate unilateral nuclear disarmament of China and Russia (and every other country, for that matter)....followed by unfettered access for US/UN weapons inspectors....or else.
I've asked before...and no one has offered another solution that would delay the coming Chinese hegemony, or a way to maintain the value of US paper currency, and thus, the maintenance of the US military triad of a land, sea, and undersea nuclear deterrent.

The US will someday, when it's currency has already busted, and China has many more than it's present "arsenal" of 25 ICBM and Russia has modernized it's currently decrepit nuclear arsenal, launch an unsuccessful attempt to pre-empt it's two rivals, and then go down "swinging".

I am no hawk, but I am a realist who wants to leave my grandchildren a future that does not consist of living in a shattered former superpower under the economic control and the military dominance of China and/or Russia.

Hillary is the most experienced candidate for US president, possibly ever. I suspect that she has the guts to craft and launch a plan as desperate as the one I described, and that she is smart enough to recognize that our circumstances and future prospects are dire enough to make it neccessary to do so, early in her presidency.

I do not wish to see anyone elected who cannot act that boldly, and convince the Chinese and Russians that we mean it, and that we will obliterate their civilizations if they do not comply, while ours, including our leadership, will survive, albeit in a limited way. Our superior air and submarine offensive delivery systems will insure that outcome, for the next few years.

I don't like her, pan, but I want an American future for my descendants, and for yours. I want a none "money party" democrat to win, an Edwards or what's his name, governor of Iowa. but neither seems to have the potential resolve to use the military to seize the future from China......and without doing something that radical, the next president will preside over the crash of US paper currency......the end of the US as the world's only superpower.

I think that you are wrong about her being a "divider":
...it's 10 additional pages long, pan. Read it. If you're gonna hate her, do it in reaction to being informed about her, not by the influence of the spin from the right that you dislike as much as you think that you dislike Hillary......

loquitur

I had said that the partisan stupidity of the past 14 years (and likely the next two) would continue if Hillary became President not because I think she would set out to divide people - she wouldn't - but because the animus in half the country is already there. It's roughly the equivalent of what the situation would be if Jeb Bush decided to run - he's a different guy from his brother but the baggage is all there with half the country: they hear the name "Bush" and start ranting. Same with Hillary - for half the country, they hear the name "Clinton" and immediately take leave of their senses.

I'm not saying this is a good thing. As I noted earlier, I have come to respect Hillary a great deal and I think a lot of the rabid antipathy toward her that is left over from her husband's term is unwarranted. But it's there. And just as I think the vilification of Bush is way over the top, there is no denying that it's there, which is why I don't want another Bush to run - irrespective of whether Jeb would be a good president or not (I have no idea whether he would), it wouldn't be good for the country. Ditto for Hillary.

mixedmedia

Thank you host and loquitor for injecting a little levity into this discussion. If Hillary had come out of nowhere the Democrats would be on fire to get her into the White House and the Republicans would be quaking in their boots - actually, they are quaking in their boots even though many of them would rather cut their tongues out than admit it out loud. She is a brilliant and talented woman and an accomplished politician. She cares. She is visionary. And I respect her very much. I'd love to see her as my president, but unfortunately I think she is too shackled by all of this hysterical notoreity that she has garnered. I hate to think it, but in my gut I believe its true. I don't think she would be suffering the same public lambasting that she has if she were a man. I can't think otherwise when there is not a single male politician I can recall who has suffered the same fate for simply doing what a politician does. It's a damn shame so many Democrats are willing to throw away the best candidate we have for such bullshit hysteria.

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loquitur

"levity"? It's more sad than anything else. She's a very talented woman.

roachboy

i have no particular committment to anyone at this point.

hillary clinton seems a consistent moderate who has the curious fortune to have been consistently painted as someone to the left of trotsky by the conservative media apparatus. i'm kinda pleased that she is running if only because the reality/conservative view gap is so enormous on this, and perhaps this gap will cause still more trouble of their own making for the right---one would hope that even more people will realize that they are not being offered rational perspective lines by that apparatus.

but i am not particularly interested in the field for 2008 yet: it is a distraction in itself, and the sporting event coverage of it even more so.

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flstf

For Obama to win the popularity contest for President he has to overcome several major negatives:

He's black (or partially)
He looks too young.
He has a funny name.
The "liberal" label.

loquitur

Dunno, flstf, charisma and competence go a long way. Obama's apparently got charisma to spare. I'm not sure about the competence yet. No one thought a funny name and an ethnic appearance was by itself enough to disqualify Michael Dukakis - he got the Democratic nomination. And if you recall, Colin Powell could have had the presidency pretty much for the asking 15 years ago, so I think a nontraditional black politician (a description that does fit Obama) has as good a shot as anyone.

I just think he's too untested. It's like asking for a rerun of Jimmy Carter or George W Bush.

aceventura3

I'd vote for Clinton. Even when I disagree with her, at least I know where she stands. She is a fighter, and not affraid to get her hands dirty if she need too. Obama seems to have a "let's all be happy" attitude and on position issues he seems to avoid taking a clear stance. I think he would be like Jimmy Carter. Clinton would be more like Lydon Johnson. Johnson was a good president, Carter was among the worst in our history.

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dc_dux

I like Loquitor's leadership characteristics of charisma and competence; I would add character.

And, just for kicks, based on ace's references to Johnson and Carter, I would rate the past presidents:

Johnson - the highest "political" competence in working the political system, no character (nearly as crooked as Nixon), no charisma

Carter - character, with little competence or charisma

Reagan - highest charisma, respectable character (if you overlook Iran-Contra), but marginally competent (needed his note cards or he was lost on the isssues beyond his black-white view of the world)

George HW Bush - competent (with a broad and varied political background), charisma-challenged, questionable character (we are still paying for those ties to the Saudis)

Clinton - high "policy" competence (could talk in depth on any issue for hours), charisma (the best schmoozer in recent history), no character

George W - neither competent (too stubborn to admit policy failures, in part, because he rarely understood the short or long term impact of his policies) nor possessing much character (spoiled rich kid whose daddy always, and continues, to bail him out of his fuck-ups) and charisma-challenged like daddy. Certainly in contention for the wosrt president in history.

Hillary has as much competence as Bill (debatable who is the bigger policy wonk) but only slightly more charcter than Bill and lacking any charisma.

Obama - with more experience, he could be a three-fer or a dud (a new face on old liberal policies)....too soon to tell.

McCain - which one? the old or the new? The old had character (slightly tarred by his connections to the Keating/saving loans scandal that everyone forgets) and competance as an independent thinker who appeared to put principal above politics. The new, pandering to the religious right, lost his way. Never very charasmatic and is looking old and tired.

Pan identified the one sure three-fer in recent years - Mario Cuomo. Too bad he never got his chance.

So much for my simplistic analysis Back to slogging through the next 20 months. (*groan* - is it just me, or is way to soon to be serious about '08 yet?)

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ASU2003

CNN actually went to the school to check it out and basically did real investigative jouralism to find out the truth. Instead of spreading lies.

Seaver

So the media are falling over Hillary and Obama. Hillary because she'd be the first woman president, Obama because he'd be the first black president.

Why is there no falling over for Condy Rice?

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host

dc_dux, Reagan's choosing to launch his 1980 campaign in Philedelphia, Miss., his "Vietnam was a noble war", message, his attack on the chancellor at Berleley and his firing of the man, and his "conversion" from a democrat who headed the SAG to this:
dc_dux, IMO, reagan was an awful man, without any integrity, a man who would say anything that he would anticipate appealing to his "base".

He was first elected in 1966 with two themes, "Cleaning up the mess at Berkeley, and "sending the welfare bums back to work"....

He was an ignorant, selfish, divider who doubled the federal deficit during his president and persuaded people to thank him for doing it.

dc_dux, Ken Starr investigated Clinton for more than 6 years. Please describe one or two incidents about Clinton, discovered in the course of the Starr investigation, other than allegations about his sex life and sexual practices, that back your opinion that his character was lacking, compared to Reagan's.