Painted

Nevada voters will have to decide on Question 7 in November. It allows the possesion of less than an ounce of dope by those older than 21. It also increases penalties for DUI of marijuana and sales to minors. It will, if passed, license and tax cannabis growers and sellers (in the form of stores). The tax is $45 per ounce.

Colorado voters decide on Amendment 44. It is similar to the initiative passed by Denver voters last year, which made possesion of an ounce or less legal (while sales and growing are still illegal). This ballot does not allow the opening of "shops". It's mainly for police to stop pestering people cheefin' up in their homes.


The groups/people against these initiatives (unsuprisingly including the Bush admin.) generally argue that if these pass, they send the "wrong message" to children, that it's okay to get high. They also argue that Nevada and/or Colorado shouldn't be the "launching pad" for marijuana legalization.

Proponents (suprisingly including most Nevada religious groups) argue that the current cannabis laws and systems simply do not work, and only create dangerous gangs and drug dealers. They also state statistics showing the staggering harmfulness of alcohol (violence, rapes, DUI's) and the relative safety and benefits of smoking dope versus drinking alcohol.


Personally, I am very exited about the possibilities of both of these initiatives. It's time to end this senseless war on marijuana. If voters pass these ballots, it will be the beginning of the end for prohibition.

One can argue all day and night about the dangers of cannabis, but it simply doesn't make sense when deadly drugs like Oxycontin, alcohol, and cocaine are more legal than pot. And the curiousity of teenagers will prevail over the harshest of laws. I think many of us knew that one, right?

TFP, argue for these ballots or against. I would like to hear some other opinions. And of course...VOTE!!

Ustwo

World needs ditch diggers too.

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NCB

I have no problems with this. If people choose to be losers and smoke dope, more power to them

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Painted

This is exactly what I wanted. Stereotypical bullshit coming from elitists who think they are so much better than every casual pot smoker. Way to go.

kutulu

lol, I'm not surprised by who gave those comments either. Neither one seems capable of anything more than a troll lately.

Great propositions, although I do think that a $45/oz tax is quite a bit high. I'd still rather focus on getting it legal and then doing away with the excessive tax.

hunnychile

Yeah, there has been a breeding population among the trolls here on tfp...it's starting to make me want to post elsewhere and send my $$ there too.

Nothing gets past these few trolls who seem to shoot down anything the rest of us want to discuss and sadly these trolls are as narrow minded as my 81 year old mother! HAH

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kutulu

We need a lot more legislation like this. It will be great when one day our cops, legal system, and prison system won't have to bother with pot anymore.

ubertuber

OK, I get the point about Oxycontin and alcohol, but how do you figure cocaine is more legal than pot?

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Elphaba

Perhaps he meant codeine, which is a narcotic derivative?

kutulu

That's what I thought he meant.

hunnychile

Just for the record: I think pot should be legalized in each & every state in the USA.

Sadly, I hate to think how our f*****g Gov't would ruin its quality and who profits from the cultivation and dispursement/marketing.

It's great for Aids patients and/cancer patients and people who live life totally stressed. I don't imbibe (any longer for personal reasons) but several close friends still do and they are an amazing bunch of smart proactive people who are college professors, doctors, lawyers, shrinks, counselors CEOs and yeah, even freakin' ditch diggers. But the point is: they have never committed any crimes other than the occasional puff on a joint. Amen. So Be It. Let's legalize smoke and let more American farmers continue to live in Peace and be able to pay their mortgage

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Ustwo

Sorry but I've yet to see someone who is excited about pot legalization who would count as a winner at life.

I've seen it add to the downfall of a lot of kids when I was in college, but oddly I didn't see much of it in dental school or beyond, and we had some pretty wild parties. The one student who was into it dropped out.

So make it legal, I don't really care, but to me it won't be anything but a drug for losers. I suppose it might work for artists, but they need a whole different skill set.

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dksuddeth

these are useless initiatives in any state and hold zero legal strength, even if passed by a huge margin. This issue was decided in favor of the controlled substances act in Jun of 2005. Once again, the heavy hand of the federal government can control what you grow, on your own land, in your own home, for your own consumption, as long as they SAY that it affects interstate commerce.

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/su...3-1454.ZO.html

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flstf

I think we should legalize pot as well as many other drugs. The war on drugs is lost and a waste of billions of dollars much like prohibition was.

Unfortunately this will ultimately have to be done at the federal level. As dksuddeth pointed out, the courts have overruled local laws in this matter with creative use of the interstate commerce clause.

ASU2003

I like the high tax, and I also think that it should be the government that sells it and run the clubs where it can be smoked at. Hell, I have to get entered into a database to buy allergy medicine, imagine if buying weed multiple times came up in someones background check. Plus it is better to make some money than spend it trying to stop drug dealers. But then we wouldn't need as big of a DEA and police force.

iccky

I'm in a Ph.D. program at a top ranked University (4th ranked in my program in the nation). I smoke pot (recreationaly, no more than once a week) and favor legalization. I would be very excited if this passed in my state, both because I think its stupid public policy to spend billions enforcing anti-pot laws and becasue I'm sick of having to hide my stash.

Good to meet you Ustwo.

Frankly, I think one of the biggest barriers to legalization is that most sucessful, with-it, "winners at life" who also smoke pot can't come forward and say it. I'll say it in the relative anonymity of the internet, but I wouldn't in most public situations with my name attached. If I had a normal desk job in most corporate or government environments I probably wouldn't even say it here.

Dilbert1234567

well meet me, i don’t smoke, or use any drug, I’m definably no looser, i run my own business, work part time at my college, and attend college. but this is the USA the home of freedom, we should be free to what ever we want with our own bodies, as long as we don’t effect others. Go ahead smoke pot if you want to, don’t smoke it if you don’t want to; but don't legislate morality.

Legalize, regulate and tax the hell out of it

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Lady Sage

I know some very intelligent people who smoke pot. I dont care who smokes it as long as they dont smoke it around me since I am allergic and upon smelling it either get sick in a trash can or have a fabulous migraine.

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Ustwo

Ok let me clarify, no one who is excited about the legalization because they can use it now without fear of 'the man'.

BTW taxing the hell out of it will just make a black market for it. I think the huge tax was added to HELP pass it, so that non users who dont' give a shit either way will think 'well some good can come of it'. The tax itself will make it harder to regulate.

Tell me in 10 years how you are doing once you are in the real world.

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Jinn

What the fuck happened to you, man..?

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SirLance

They can pass it, and the use/possesion/sale of pot will remain a crime under the CSA, and that's all there is to it.

What the legalize pot crowd need to do is get an act of congress declaring pot legal, then it will be. State actions will be overridden by congressional actions under the interstate commerce clause.

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Dilbert1234567

Taxing would not make a black market, once large growers started producing it cheaply, the black market would disappear

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Painted

Cannabis is in Schedule I of the CSA, cocaine is in Schedule II (as is methamphetamine, PCP and opium). Thus, cocaine is available via perscription under federal law, and weed isn't.

The $45 tax does seem high, however it's an ounce of pot, which I currently pay ~$300 for anyways.

The_Dunedan

OK, so lemme get this straight.

Legalizing cannabis and taxing it, which would apparently bring the price to around $100/oz, is going to generate a black market and cause a problem. That's your arguement, right Ustwo?

But the current illegal status, which gives cannabis a value of $300/oz ( frequently even more ) hasn't generated a black market and caused problems?

What are you smoking, and where can I buy some? You do realize that even -with- taxation, grass would be a minimum of 50% cheaper than it is now, probably much more than that...how is this supposed to cause a black market when one of the immidiate results of legalization would be a precipitous drop in prices? If I can buy an ounce of White Widow for $150, from a corner store, why would I skip that in order to pay $400 from a guy on the street?

As for not knowing any pot-smoking Dentists; I'm not surprised. From the sound of your posts, you'd have no idea what to look for. A lot more of your co-workers smoke than will admit it, although most medical types go in for either opiates or blow. Although frankly, my own guess is that they simply didn't tell you they were smoking, because it took them all of 5 seconds to figure out you would call the cops.

I've used cannabis for almost two years to suppress debilitating migraines. The list of known, theraputic uses for this stuff is as long as my arm; Migraines, cluster-headaches, MS, Fiber Myalgia, Glaucoma, athsma ( in vaporized form ), insomnia, nausea, etc etc etc.

In the Czech Republic, where I now live, cannabis use is semi-legal and -very- widespread. 30% of the population report using it at least once per month. Oddly enough, I can't seem to find any stories of stoned doctors killing people, or stoned drivers causing huge pileups...loads of alchohol-related shit, though. Funny thing, that. Oddly enough, the Czechs also have a very deep-seated hatered for informants...so guess who Czech cops spend their time chasing? Murderers, thieves, rapists...you know, actual criminals, rather than people who ingest the medically-harmless flowers of a highly prolific weed.

Yes, some people can't handle cannabis. But these are people who have a hard time handling a "STOP" sign; if you're dumb before you spark up, you're gonna be dumb afterwards. Yes, some people let pot control their lives. Some people also let the NFL, stock-market, or Beanie-babies control their lives. Should we now ban sports, stock trading, and stuffed animals?

And here's the bottom line; what buisiness is it of yours, the Govt's, or ANYones, what someone puts into their own body? Where do you get off saying you own people? Where did you get this idea that someone else was your property, to dictate to as needed, regarding the intimate details of their lives?

It's about self-ownership, people.

Paq

The_Dunedan:

i don't even smoke...anything, barely drink, but i gotta say:

Well said, my friend, well said

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dksuddeth

they said the same thing about machine guns, short barreled shotguns, and silencers back in 1933...that taxing wouldn't create a black market. They also said the same thing about prohibition of alcohol.

people, as a whole, will find the cheapest way to acquire whatever it is that they want and taxing marijuana, like they did with guns or alcohol, will only embolden people to find ways to do it cheaper than what the government will price it at.

Whos business is it? Congress, namely the democrats, made it their business. If you want it changed, contact your congressman, as they are the only ones who can change it. But you knew this Dune, right?

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Dilbert1234567

One big reason black markets exist is because there is no legal system for illegal goods, the only way to settle a dispute is with violence.

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Toaster126

I've always been for the legalization of pot because I want police spending their time catching and punishing other forms of criminals.

Unfortunately, I don't have any faith in the government to do this in an efficient way.

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feelgood

Nope, not even close. The Canadian Government is responsible for providing medical marijuana and I've tried that shit and its fucking great quality compared to the black market stuff.

Btw Ustwo, meet another winner: In college with another year to go, marks are good, I smoke recreationally (one a month or so) and haven't had much trouble with it. I think you're just stereotyping people who use drugs. Not all of them are bad ya know?

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dksuddeth

OR, the OTHER big reason black markets exist is to avoid excessive taxes levied by a government. Think cigarettes or alcohol.

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Dilbert1234567

even with high taxes (which dont have to be excessive) a large pot farm could produce pot dirt cheep, and undercut all the current black markets.

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dksuddeth

lets look at this from a purely economic standpoint.

2 people grow pot. One does it via the legal way and one does it illegally.
Now, the one doing it legally has to have a government agency apply their regulation, which costs money, and that increases the cost already. Now, add the tax, high or low it makes no difference, and that increases the cost even more. Now go to the guy doing it illegally. No regulation, no cost increases, no taxes. who's going to have a bigger share? most likely it will be the guy doing it legally, because the individual user will want to avoid legal issues, but there would still be a black market that you will never be able to get rid of.

If prohibition truly worked, or tight gov regulation and high taxes worked, we'd never had to deal with shine runners or gangsters with illegal machine guns.

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Dilbert1234567

Well your logic is good, but you forget about size. If we have one person growing it illegally, skipping the taxes, they have to stay small, out of sight; where as the legal guy, can have a large farm, a large operation which cuts cost, and produces a higher yield. Also, illegally requires expensive lights, and equipment, legally, you can be outside in the sun, it still requires equipment, but not as much.

You will never get rid of a black market completely, there will always be a reason to be under ground... but if we can get more into the real market, it will reduce crime (violent crime) and increase tax revenue.

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Ustwo

Eh the tax is a side line, but as it gets decriminalized, it will be cheaper to grow/sell on the black market as well. Anything overtaxed gets a black-market if there is a way to produce it without the tax. Its 300 an Oz because that’s what people will pay for it, but if people are forced to pay $100 and oz by the government but can get it for $50 from John down the street, you now have a black market.

Medicinal marijuana use isn't the question here either, nor are the majority of those who use pot doing for medical reasons.

That leaves my 'losers' comment and I still stand by it, and I don't really care what % of Czech's smoke it. What I see in marijuana users is a lack of ambition, a 'what me worry?' attitude, and if that’s what they want fine, because the world does need ditch diggers and their other forms of employment equivalent.

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ShaniFaye

Alcohol adds to the downfall of kids in college as well... I knew more than a fair share of kids that got kicked out, or couldnt continue because of alcohol related problems.

IMO it should be legalized, to me..its no different than alcohol, and if beer/wine/liquor are legal (with people who partake paying a tax) so should pot

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Ustwo

And interestingly those kids were breaking the law too. Perhaps we should lower the drinking age while we are at it, or just eliminate it?

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ShaniFaye

um...not back in my day they werent or at least in GA....it was 18 not 21. I was always a year behind the change when they raised it from 18-21 (they raised it one age each year for 3 years)

So when I was 18 the drinking age was 19...when I was 19 it was 20, when I was 20 it was 21....most of my friends were a few years older than me...so..illegal? Nope

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Rekna

South Dakota also has a similar bill on the ballot but only for medical purposes (it will defiantly fail though). I don't smoke pot, and probably never will. But I fully support legalizing it and here is why.

If you legalize it first and foremost you can control it better. They can tax it to generate revenue and more importantly take the money out of the drug dealers and terrorists hands. Cutting the drug dealers profits down 75% is going to stop a lot of them from dealing. Finally I think the measures should go further and allow people to grow it themselves thus completely eliminating the drug dealing market for this drug. But to me the biggest perk of allowing growth is that it will lessen the medical costs for many people and stop the big drug companies from over charging on meds. Why is the government forcing people to spend billions of dollars on drugs when they could spend pennies at home for meds that are just as effective?

Here is what I would like to see. People who wish to grow their own have to purchase a growers license yearly, there would be different licenses (ie personal use, distributing license ect). The money generated from this license goes to educating children about the use of ALL drugs and their dangers, including alcohol. People who don't pay the taxes are guilty of tax evasion and would be prosecuted as such.

So in summary lets see what happens. Crime is reduced, sick people feel better, greater tax revenues, money is moved from the drug dealers, terrorists, and drug companies hands back to the people, and children know more about the effects of all drugs.

Now tell me what is the down part of this? I am a firm believer that the only reason pot has not been legalized is because our politicians have been bought off by lobbyists from the drug companies who what to protect their monopoly on medicine.

Anyone ever wonder why Europe doesn't have nearly the problems the US does with binge drinking? Maybe because they have it growing up and it isn't such a huge deal when they go to college.

dksuddeth

all of this talk about regulating and taxes, etc. is useless. The feds have a vested interest in keeping marijuana on the CSA and it's tied to the war on drugs. It's profitable for them, moreso than legalizing it ever would be. If you want to see personal use become legal, you absolutely MUST get a supreme court who will limit congressional authority on the commerce clause to interstate commerce only and not intrastate 'that can affect interstate' commerce.

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