10-25-2006, 08:03 AM | #41 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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10-25-2006, 08:28 AM | #42 (permalink) | ||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Ustwo, B.S. D.D.S. M.S., worked in a genetics lab for two years as well. Now taking out the pure dentistry stuff, that’s 11 years of biology study after high school. Its also something anyone who was a basic biology major should be able to figure out on their own without any advanced work. What they are talking about is a fertilized egg, or at most a blastocyst. There isn't much we are going to learn from a human fertilized egg beyond what we know in other mammals because the initial stages of development are all almost identical. The only real use I can see of it is to perfect human cloning. Quote:
Ok this is quite funny really. Instead of Iraqi's you could use someone who died in a police hostage standoff, or maybe the 40k a year who die in car crashes in the US every year. Lets try it on for size.... If you are willing to sacrifice 40,000 people a year in traffic accidents I don't understand the unwillingness to use those embryos. Or maybe this one..... If you are willing to eat apples I don't understand your unwillingness to eat oranges. Ok now that I got that silliness aside, I am IN favor of using those dead babies but I can respect those who view it as murder. The difference is I don't play philosophical games to sooth my conscious over it. I think abortion is murder, I just don't care that much since I view it as genetic selection removing undesirable traits from humanity. If people want to step out of the gene pool in such a selfish and brutal manner I don't want those genes in the next generation, and we might as well get some good from their irresponsibility.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 10-25-2006 at 08:37 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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10-25-2006, 09:00 AM | #43 (permalink) | |
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The Iraqi deaths I'm talking about were preventable and are a direct result of a political decision to go to war, one that you support. In this case, the loss of life is, to you, worth what we might potentially achieve (but so far have not done). But when it comes to stem cell research, it appears that the possible or potential benefits to medicine are not worth the loss of mere embryos. You don't see a contradiction there when it comes to the value placed on life? What's 'silly' about this? |
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10-25-2006, 09:09 AM | #44 (permalink) | ||
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So either you have to start listening to other experts, or you yourself will cease to be an expert. You can't have it both ways. |
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10-25-2006, 09:33 AM | #45 (permalink) | |
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Location: Chicago
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Just kidding about that last one. We all know he wouldn't fund anything that wasn't already pure evil. Seriously, I don't see the point of your question to my response. Mine was more of "the good ideas have already been thought of already" variety. If scientists figured out how to do their research with more readily available materials, they're going to do it, especially if the results are going to yield easy cures for fatal diseases. If you're implying that scientists are ignoring easily available material in pursuit of more funding, let's see your proof. I assume that's not what you're trying to tell me, though. /interruption of the dick-measuring contest
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10-25-2006, 09:45 AM | #46 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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The idea is that scientists and researchers might be hindered in their abilities and exploration by those that fund them is nothing new. I know that scientists and researchers are out there to cure this and that, but they have to pander to their benificiaries or lose their funding. We all know that. It would be niave to say that science isn't effeced by politics. Did we already forget about the Dickey Amendment? Clinton signed federal legislation that prohibited the HHS from using appriopriated funds for any stem cell research in which the embryo is destroyed. I'm sure Ustwo can tell you that does cut a lot of funding for stem cell research, and it's a decision made on (religous?) morality, not science. They aren't ignoring anything, they simply aren't funded so they CAN'T do their research. |
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10-25-2006, 10:03 AM | #47 (permalink) |
Wehret Den Anfängen!
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Yes, you'd have to build up a completely different instuition in order to do research unretricted by the Federal ban provisions on fetal stem-cell research.
This is basic research. The kind that helps everyone in the USA -- a damn good use of Federal money. Instead, Federal money is making it harder to do the research. The fetal stem cells are the least differentiated human cells out there. Learning how to convince them to differentiate and turn into arbitrary tissue is ridiculously interesting research. Do you object to having the Federal government fund fundamental scientific research? Do you understand the economic basis for why funding fundamental scientific research is a damn good idea?
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10-25-2006, 10:25 AM | #48 (permalink) |
Asshole
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Location: Chicago
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Will, are you seriously telling me that there's a vast conspiracy amongst the research institutions of the world to use embryonic stem cells solely? Or that umbilical stem cells and embryonic stem cells are even the same thing (I honestly don't know).
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
10-25-2006, 10:34 AM | #49 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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10-25-2006, 10:51 AM | #50 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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If I'm wrong show me, otherwise accept it from someone who has forgotten more biology than you will learn in your lifetime.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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10-25-2006, 11:13 AM | #51 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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Perhaps this letter of support for the bill in question from the American Association of Medical Colleges:
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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10-25-2006, 11:36 AM | #52 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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10-25-2006, 12:13 PM | #53 (permalink) | |
Wehret Den Anfängen!
Location: Ontario, Canada
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What is more important, in the short term, than the ethics of stem cell research is the political impact.
The banning of any institution accepting federal funding from doing embryonic stem cell research -- what have been, and will be, the political effects of it? It did enhearten the anti-abortion troops -- it was a concrete step in vaguely that direction. In the short term, it couldn't help but bring volunteers to the Republicans, and motivate the anti-abortion voters to come out to the polls. The other hand is the emotional impact of ads like Fox's. Getting in the way of extremely promising medical research that could cure thousands if not millions of people -- one can make political hay against the Republicans using that arguement. The worst possible case would be if one of the non-Federal funded Embryonic Stem Cell research institutions where to pull off a breakthrough. This isn't likely in the short term -- we are talking about basic research -- but it would probably make a heck of alot of political ammunition. ... As for the ethics of it... There are 4 kinds of stem cells: Quote:
Possibly cutting open human brains and scraping out brain stem cells could be used for research. Personally, I'm against cutting peoples brains open and using an ice cream scoop. Somehow, I think that using fertilized eggs that are going to be discarded anyhow seems like a cleaner way to get nerve-cell precurors... I suppose they could just scoop the brains of brain-dead people to harvest neuron stem cells? That still doesn't get us access to nerve-cell (as opposed to brain-cell) precursors, as far as I know there aren't any in an adult body...
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10-25-2006, 12:59 PM | #54 (permalink) | ||
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Location: Chicago
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Speaking of Ustwo, I'm sure he's as offended as I am at the thought of being tag team partners. Don't make me go all Randy Macho Man Savage on you.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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10-25-2006, 03:17 PM | #56 (permalink) | |||
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo Last edited by The_Jazz; 10-25-2006 at 03:22 PM.. |
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10-25-2006, 08:11 PM | #57 (permalink) | |
Walking is Still Honest
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The Iraqis who attempt violence against U.S. troops and/or other Iraqis? Self-defense. Whatever their reasons, no matter how noble, a response to lethal force can still fall into the realm of self-defense. The Iraqis who didn't attempt violence, yet were killed? It's that unfortunate, not-yet-eliminated cost of war known as collateral damage. I'm suddenly a little confused as to what you consider the great big inconsistency here, and moreover I'm wondering why it's relevant to this thread if there's an inconsistency. It's possible to be wrong about one issue and right about another. Would you prefer a foolish consistency?
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10-27-2006, 07:03 AM | #59 (permalink) | |
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And the reason I introduced the idea into this thread is because it's a relevant criticism of people's objections to this research. What's stopping you from considering embryos to be the collateral damage of curing disease and advancing human knowledge? It is, by any measure, a smaller toll than the lives of full grown humans. |
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10-27-2006, 07:17 AM | #60 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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10-27-2006, 07:48 AM | #61 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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You don't understand the biology at all, yet have strong opinion on it, and thats just wonderful. If you don't know the difference between a fetus, a embryo, a blastocyst or a fertilized egg, and what is going on at that point you have absolutely no business trying to discuss it beyond the most vague terms. If you have such a strong opinion that you feel the need to voice it here do some reading first and then come back. I'll even do the first google for ya... http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ult...velopment.html Now when you have a grasp of cell differentiation, and development and what that bill you posted entails, come back.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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10-27-2006, 07:54 AM | #62 (permalink) | ||||
Walking is Still Honest
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I could say: "Okay, you're right, both collateral damage and embryonic stem cell research should be legal." Or I could say: "Okay, you're right, both collateral damage and embryonic stem cell research should be illegal." Or - and this'll be my final answer, Regis - I could respond in this way: Quote:
Embryonic stem cell research, on the other hand, cannot be properly considered self-defense or defense of others. The aggressor is nature, not man, and to respond to the injuries of nature by attacking man is wrong. Think of it this way: you wouldn't approve of harvesting organs from healthy infants in order to sustain the life of a sick adult, would you? Obviously this isn't a comparison of identical situations, experimenting with a clump of cells is a hell of a lot easier to rationalize for one, but I see a valid comparison there with no relevant difference. Beating nature isn't worth nonconsensual sacrifices of human life. And that, I believe, is where our truly relevant disagreement lies. We may disagree on the whether collateral damage is acceptable in war, but I'm betting that we actually agree that collateral damage isn't acceptable in medical research. If not, well, then we have two relevant disagreements...but collateral damage in war remains irrelevant. Even if there is inconsistency remaining, it says nothing about whether I'm right on this issue. The big question reverts back to this: does the lethal use of embryos for medical purposes differ in a morally significant way from doing the same with infants? Quote:
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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10-27-2006, 08:48 AM | #63 (permalink) | ||
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I do understand the public policy process fairly well, which requires interested observers, including members of Congress who ultimately make the decisions, to objectively evaluate the testimony and analysis of the experts on this or any subject up for public debate. I choose to give more credence to experts other than you.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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10-29-2006, 07:28 AM | #64 (permalink) |
Wehret Den Anfängen!
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Where, exactly, is the "collateral damage" in taking discarded human cells, and using it?
The cells are going to be killed. You may object to the process that led to cells going to be killed, but once you have some being who has no ability to think, is doomed to die, and has useful organs or cells -- where is the ethical problem with harvesting it? You do know that what I described is the source of almost all human organ transplants.
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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest. |
10-29-2006, 06:35 PM | #65 (permalink) |
More anal, less shenanigans
Location: Always lurking
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Sadly, it appears that MJF was not as informed as he thought he was.
http://www.floppingaces.net/2006/10/...ng-initiative/ |
10-29-2006, 07:15 PM | #66 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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I dont particularly care if Fox read the details of the MO initiative or not. He was aware that it allows only stem cell research that complies with federal laws and regulations and that it prohibits human cloning.
That said, the position of Senate candidates on federal stem cell legislation should be more important to the rest of the country (whether you are for or against a federal bill) and the current Senator in MO voted against the bill that passed in both the House and Senate.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
10-29-2006, 07:21 PM | #67 (permalink) | ||
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http://hotair.com/archives/2006/10/2...ell-amendment/ Quote:
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10-29-2006, 07:25 PM | #69 (permalink) | |||
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Nice to know you'll be cutting him slack for the rest of his term. Last edited by magictoy; 10-29-2006 at 07:28 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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10-29-2006, 07:29 PM | #70 (permalink) | ||
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 10-29-2006 at 09:31 PM.. |
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10-29-2006, 07:53 PM | #71 (permalink) | |||
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I won't post the link to the initiative again. You didn't read it when you posted it yourself. Quote:
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10-29-2006, 07:53 PM | #72 (permalink) | ||||
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Here's the relevant portion of Michael J. Fox's ABC interview transcript: Quote:
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10-29-2006, 08:05 PM | #73 (permalink) | |
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I will continue to support candidates who would vote for the stem cell bill that Bush vetoed, against the majority support of Congress and the people, and I appreciate Michael J Fox's active involvement in the issue, particularly in light of the ridicule and criticism he has encountered.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 10-29-2006 at 08:08 PM.. |
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10-29-2006, 10:45 PM | #74 (permalink) | |
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Anyways, i hope that you revile the president with as much vitriol as you have for mr. fox the next time he does something stupid, which, you know, should be any fucking minute now. |
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10-30-2006, 01:54 AM | #75 (permalink) | |||||
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The religious right and elected republican officials in Missouri have a track record of interfering with women's access to reproductive information, treatment, and contraceptives...to a much more radical extent than at the federal level:
<b>At the following link, Missouri Gov. Matt Blunt allows the display of a deliberate, inciting falsehood: RU-486 is never dispensed by pharmacists to prescription holders....</b> Quote:
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<a href="http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t51505.html">"If you hand out contraception to single women, we're saying promiscuity is OK as a state, and I am not in support of that," Phillips, R-Kansas City, said in an interview.</a> The deliberation in the Missouri state senate in 2005 over this bill was the motivation for the vote on a constitutional amendment. Republicans who are not batshit crazy from religious influences, including gov. Matt Blunt, are presumably in favor of keeping the state on an equal footing with the rest of the countryas far as in the development of this science: Quote:
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10-30-2006, 06:22 AM | #76 (permalink) | |
Walking is Still Honest
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1. The cells that "are going to be killed" - are they to be killed because they can no longer be implanted successfully, or killed by request or for storage issues? If it's one of the latter two, then I don't see the inevitability that you do. I would argue that destruction of cells with a potential future should not be allowed. And that just goes back to my problem with in vitro in general. If it's the former, though, then I'm close to agreeing with you. 2. The only remaining problem I'd have - and I'm undecided on this - is that I might still oppose the use of the embryos because it could encourage/increase the creation of nonviable embryos. Tossing that around in my head right now.
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10-30-2006, 06:31 AM | #77 (permalink) | |
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Location: essex ma
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do you mean this?
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10-30-2006, 10:32 AM | #80 (permalink) | |||
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http://www.floppingaces.net/2006/10/...ng-initiative/ Quote:
In Missouri, there is a running political battle between religious zealots who are trying to transform that state into a "Jesus Land". Michael J. Fox is interested in all Americans enjoying the same potential for medical research breakthroughs to bring relief from symptoms of illness, and to reverse deterioration and death that too often is the result of disease that medicine has inadequate or no treatment for. <h3>That is his "agenda"....what is yours? Why are you posting a repetition of earlier attacks on Michael J. Fox, here, and by Rush Limbaugh?</h3> Quote:
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