rofgilead

Warning - very disturbing video.

I don't know why this hasn't reached the American media much, but there is a video from Russian journalists from September 30th, it shows a chinese soldier is shooting fleeing tibetan refugees as they leave tibet. This is at high altitude and cold conditions, so they refugees can't really do much to escape and barely pause their movements when a refugee gets shot and falls to the ground.

The video has interviews with norwegian and russian climbers who witnessed and recorded it happening.


webpage: [URL="http://mounteverest.net/news.php?news=15182"]
video: [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KagCLqdwsgU"]

quotes:
At first they said they didn't know. "I've seen the reports about this, but I've no knowledge of the specific situation," Liu Jianchao, a ministry spokesman, told a news conference in Beijing about the shootings at Nangpa La.

That's when the pictures showed up.

Only hours later, China admitted. But now they claimed self-defense. A Xinhua report said that the people trying to cross the border attacked the soldiers, who were then "forced to defend themselves."


China treats the tibetans like animals now, and it seems like the Chinese government using their new high-altitude train is intent on replacing the indigenous people with the Han chinese race. It is very messed up what has been happening over there, but the US is completely quiet on this issue. I don't understand why we are so much aligned with China, when they are basically a very evil government.

Ch'i

That is completely unacceptable of the Chinese government.

Self-defense my ass.

pan6467

And just think the Billions upon Billions we owe them as a trade deficit pays for them to do things like this. The average US citizen doesn't see or hear this.... surely Limbaugh and FauxNews will never report it.... nor will CBS, PMSNBC, CNN, ABC, NBC..... they all have licensed goods made over there, and serious business interests to protect, silly person.

Who cares how many the government kills? Who cares how the government treats its people or what kind of freedoms it gives.... we want cheaper labor, we want cheaper goods.... we demand our PS2's, our HDTVs, our whatever.....

All hail capitalism.... all hail cheaper goods made in countries that their government's crush any rights. All hail the great Capitalism that has put us billions into debt to a country that supports N.Korea.... killing innocents.... etc

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Ustwo

Its amusing how you blame capitalism for the crimes of the last two major communist nations. If anything besides a war is going to change China its not sanctions, its wealth and the wealth that capitalism brings. The world needs more capitalism, not less. I can't imagine how someone could be so wrong on this as you are.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Ch'i

But what do you think about the shootings Ustwo?

rofgilead

Ustwo:

I just don't see how capitalism will change how governments choose to operate though?

Both Russia and China now have a market economy - and both are maintaining hardline political control over free expression and political discourse. Both countries have corrupt legal systems that benefit the ruling political party and prevent citizens from holding their governments accountable for tragedies and massacres.

The 80's viewpoint was that the free market economy fixed political problems. This was another utopian viewpoint like communism - and it has in all cases failed to acheive positive political effects. In the United States the free market failed to magically make the environment cleaner - it required political regulation of industry to make this occur. In Russia, the government has basically become totalitarian under the rule of Putin, even with a free market. In China, the central government is just as powerful if not more since the introduction of the market economy.

And further - global free trade was supposed to solve the problems of international relations. Has it? No - in the United States we have lost our entire manufacturing industry (which is serious, if we ever were in another large war - we need manufacturing). And we have become politically handcuffed regarding China - they pay for our enormous Trillion-dollar federal debt (not deficit - which is 200billion) by ownership of bonds. And our economy relies enormously on China's cheap goods, so we can't say politically unfavorable things to China or have any negociating power regarding countries like North Korea.

The market is the market - its not a political solution

kutulu

rofgilead, thank you for the logic, we could use more of that here.

pan6467

Well, you know the solution Reagan had against the USSR was to outspend them militarily and bankrupt them.... he did and it worked, somewhat... but then the government crumbled, and Putin took over with his Iron Fist.

The current GOP must have the idea that to take down China we'll give them all our jobs, never tariff their goods as they do our (what goods of ours they'll allow), and to become billions upon billions of dollars indebted to them.

Then we can say "we're giving them Capitalism" as they basically call our foreign policy, as they hold debt we could never pay over our heads and as they destroy any free speech or ideas in their country.

Yes, Capitalism must be working in China.... they can kill innocent people, pretty much tell us how we will handle N. Korea and Iran, hold that debt over our heads and we sit by and say "it's ok. the free market will solve everything."

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Ustwo

I didn't watch the video, but isnt that the sort of thing we expect from communist nations?

People are dying to leave.

Its not a free economy that opens it up, its the wealth in the hands of average citizens. You don't switch from a communist to a capitalist system overnight and expect all bad things to go away. Its not a magic bullet. To maintain that wealth you need citizens free to travel and free to get information, those are not compatible with repressive societies.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

filtherton

The only way capitalism works for everyone is when it's highly regulated. Call me naive, but i generally have little faith in the regulatory abilities of china.

pan6467

I'm lost Us2 you say this:


But then you contradict yourself with this:



Just curious, because obviously China isn't getting better, it's still extremely repressive..... yet, capitalism is going to change them? But it's not a magic bullet and isn't compatible with their society.

So which is it? I truly would like to know since you contradict yourself and truly seem to have no idea what you are saying.

And why are we even trying capitalism there? They have crushed us at our own game. Our society is getting worse (bigger gap between the rich and poor, pitiful wages, healthcare out of control, an educational system falling apart, an infrastructure falling apart, government deficits out of control and personal as well as trade debt out of control) and they hold the promissary notes to our debt...... Sooooooo I don't think we or our way of life is winning anything against China.

But we're supposed to keep shipping jobs and buying goods from them because Capitalism will turn them free.... but Capitalism doesn't work in a repressive society which China is........

Wow..... ok then.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

The_Jazz

If the Tibetan would convert to Islam, then the Chinese would have themselves a problem. As it stands, the Tibetans don't have enough friends in high enough circles to make a difference. The Bush administration has never paid any real attention to the Chinese for anything beyond trade issues, and they aren't going start anytime soon. There doesn't seem to be anyone in Congress right now willing to be a Tibetan champion, so this will remain an internal Chinese issue.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

stevo

at least they still have the excuse to put on the Tibetan Freedom Concert. do they still do that thing?

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

feelgood

I'm amused to find some people say that its unacceptable but wouldn't do anything about it. Oh well, another day in the comfty world of captialism, democractic or whatever damn world we live in.

__________________
Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

pan6467

What exactly are we supposed to do?

Stop buying goods from China? Yeah, my paycheck barely affords me food, gas and car ins. anything I buy pretty much has to be cheap and guess where that means it comes from..... Pay me more, I'll be able to buy domestic made goods.

The US has enough severe domestic issues we can't play world cop anymore. We need to work on the log in our own eye in this country before we can start trying to show others their splinters.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

feelgood

Well, In a way, none of us has the right to say what the others are doing wrong anymore because we need to resolve other issues first. It's like saying this:

United States: "Hey! You can't be doing that stuff, it aint right"
China: "Well, what are you gonna do about it?"

I think we all have bitten off more than we can chew (N Korea, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, War on Terror, etc) and taking on China with its methodology of dealing with its citizen is certainly way bigger than all the countries that I've mentioned combined.

__________________
Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

The_Jazz

There's the bigger picture to worry about as well - are we going to make waves about an internal Chinese issues (sorry all you Tibet supporters, but its a de facto thing now) when we need their help in dealing with the North Koreans?

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

jorgelito

The Chinese could simply point out that we also shoot civilians (in Iraq etc). IR is tricky....

Also, like all reports, we didn't see what happened before the shooting. Maybe they did attack the border guards (I highly doubt it but still). We onlyt have a western media clip. It's like those police beatings on tape. We don't see what happens before.

We also claim to find other horrors in Africa unacceptable but we don't do anything about it. I would argue that the Chinese are not as bad as the Africans (in my opinion). But I don't see any outrage on that now.

eribrav

Does anyone really think the current administration can claim moral high ground and criticize the actions of other governments?

What if the Chinese did something really awful and umm like let's just say pull an innocent man from another country off a flight and send him to Syria to be tortured for nearly a year? Or abduct others and imprison them indefinitely, without a trial, without access to legal counsel and without hearing the charges against them? Would we be up in arms about that?

feelgood

No, several other countries have done that before including United States. There was a case of a Canadian Journalist being caught up in Syria and was tortured for awhile before the Canadian Government finally did something about it. The whole time the Canadian Government was just "protesting" the journalist's treatment in prison.

I'll try to look up him again

Edit: Found him
Abdullah Almalki (PDF) @ Amnesty International

Exerts

__________________
Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

Ch'i

Buy me a plane ticket to Tibet.

feelgood

Nah, I'd hate to see one of our own get sniped by the Chinese

__________________
Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

Ch'i

I'll disguise myself, like Sean Connery in You Only Live Twice.



//Sorry for the threadjack//

pan6467

Good points.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

florida0214

Well if we did this on the Mexican border, it would get a whole lot more publicity. They were very good shots though.

__________________
"Two men: one thinks he can. One thinks he cannot. They are Both Right."

pan6467

Very true. Unfortunately, whatever bad happens here seems to get world notice and then all kinds of international bs occurs. Whenever we do anything good, it gets swept under the carpet and mentioned in passing.

Doesn't matter which side does either deed, the press covers it the same. Bad news, especially U.S. bad news sells. Good news, especially U.S. good news doesn't sell.

I would offer my conspiracy theory but it's just that theory and conspiracy, thus I may post it sometime to Paranoia thread and not hijack this one any further.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"