Can't we all just get along?

[Paq]

Ok, this has been brewing within me for a bit, so bear with me.

For those who know me, you'll know i've been trading stocks for a while, pattern/momo/daytrading with some value investing thrown in for the longterm picture..

Why do i tell you this? simple. A lot of my money comes from judging what the market is doing in general and what a particular stock is doing in general. I keep up to date with what will affect the price and ultimately, my profits...

So, I watch a lot of business news and a lot of people are hounding on a completely deadlocked gov't when the democrats take office. A happy market is one with a stable gov't, basically. It doesn't matter if it's dem or republican, just that it's predictable, stable, etc.

anyway, a lot of talking heads are feaing a completely deadlocked government after the next election. And I started thinking...and listening more..and trying to grasp our current situation in this country...and i've found that we are in a very unique place in time right now.

I cannot recall anytime in history when the govt/people have been so divided that nothing can effectively be accomplished. We have been extremely divided in the past, but there was always room for compromise...and now we are so polarized that ANY form of compromise is rare or nonexistant. I blame the bushco for a lot of this with no help given from the dems.

Bush and co seem to come up with the most divisive issues imagineable to push to the front of the political headlines.

Immigration, for instance, seems to have popped up out of nowhere to the frontlines. We have always dealt with immigration one way or another without it being frontline news for months on end. Everybody knows the system needs to change, but it's the way it's being presented that seems to divide people.

Gay marriage is another. We need to find a way to address the equality issue, but honestly, was it even an issue before it was brought up? If so, was it even close to a federal issue?

Stem cell research...ok, this one is a huge issue, but the way it was presented is wholly biased and religious based, certainly a way to completely divide the public.

Abortion..ok, so this one is dragged out by politicians every election cycle to demonize the other group. Sorry, it's not going to change, stop using it for a rallying call to your base. Every few years, politicians will bring it up, drum up a lot of support pro and con and then what happens? nothing. Republicans fear outlawing abortion as much as democrats, but for obviously different reasons. Besides, would it be political suicide for a dem to be pro-life and a republican to be pro-choice? Apparently most feel that way.

What i'm just saying, in short, is that this country has had its issues, certainly. However we have always found a middle ground and made ourselves better because of it. I just feel that we are currently faced with far too many supremely divisive issues in far too short of a time. That, coupled with 2 parties who are so fundamentally different that they don't even agree to disagree anymore.

republicans have such a hard time passing ANYTHING more than a gallstone and they control both houses...what's going to happen when they lose a majority and have some serious opposition? For that matter, what good is having a democrat majority when everything they propose will get shot down by the remaining repubs or ultimately by the president?

Does anyone see a unifying resolution to abortion, immigration, gay rights, stem cell research, the war in iraq, the war on terrorism, the new torture resolution, any of these? I seriously think they will be quietly swept under the radar when cooler heads prevail. IF cooler heads prevail, that is.

It's so funny/scary to see the insane rise of straight party voters for the past few elections...what's even more hilarious is that the two parties so closely resemble each other in some serious fundamental ways. I'm sure ustwo and matthew330 and dksuddeth can quote numerous examples of which i'm not even touching here.

I'm just worried about the present and future of this country, that's all. I just find it a very tumultuous time that seems to be full of rhetoric and lacking in accomplishments.

I'd love to hear some thoughts on this

[host]

Originally Posted by Paq

....Does anyone see a unifying resolution to abortion, immigration, gay rights, stem cell research, the war in iraq, <b>the war on terrorism</b>, the new torture resolution, any of these? I seriously think they will be quietly swept under the radar when cooler heads prevail. IF cooler heads prevail, that is..........

......I'd love to hear some thoughts on this

Sorry, Chris. Not a chance of anything better than a bloodless, political holding action.....<b>first....because of the lies:</b>

http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkans...er_speaks.aspx
<b>After Pat's Birthday</b>
By Kevin Tillman

Editor’s note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005, has written a powerful, must-read document.

It is Pat’s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice… until we get out.

Much has happened since we handed over our voice:

Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.

Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.

Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.

Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.

Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.

Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.

Somehow torture is tolerated.

Somehow lying is tolerated.

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.

Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.

Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.

Somehow this is tolerated.

Somehow nobody is accountable for this.

In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don’t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that “somehow” was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.

Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat’s birthday.

Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,

Kevin Tillman

<b>Background on Kevin Tillman's rant:</b>

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/footb...an-probe_x.htm
Congressman asks Pentagon to finish Tillman probe
Updated 9/19/2006 8:43 PM ET
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — A California congressman urged the Pentagon on Tuesday to complete its criminal investigation into the friendly fire death of Corp. Pat Tillman, who was killed in Afghanistan after quitting the NFL to join the U.S. Army Rangers.

Rep. Mike Honda, a Democrat who represents the San Jose region where Tillman grew up, faxed a letter to acting Defense Department Inspector General Thomas Gimble. The inspector general announced in March that he would open a criminal probe into Tillman's death.

Although the Pentagon has never publicly revealed the scope of its investigation, Army officials have told the Associated Press privately that it focuses on possible negligent homicide charges against fellow troops.

Multiple investigations have failed to account for Tillman's April 22, 2004, death, Honda said. In May 2002, eight months after the attack on the World Trade Center, he left the Arizona Cardinals and enlisted.

"Whether intentional or unintentional, the Army's missteps have exacerbated the pain and sorrow felt by the Tillman family over their loss," Honda wrote. "The legacy of a fallen warrior, resolution for family members on the home front, and the confidence of our heroic service members in their civilian and military superiors require, at long last, an immediate conclusion to the investigation."

The Army conducted three inquiries into Tillman's death even before the inspector general's current probe, which also covers allegations of a cover-up.

The negligent-homicide probe was the outgrowth of a review begun in August 2005 of the third and most sweeping of previous investigations. The Tillman family has been promised completion many times, only to see repeated delays, Honda said.

"Justice deferred is justice denied, and justice for Pat Tillman and his family has been inexcusably denied," Honda said in a statement that accompanied the letter.

A spokesman for the inspector general said that the office has a policy of not commenting on investigations or setting timetables. However, Honda said the inspector general's office is projecting that the current investigation will be done by December.
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/edi...ire_and_fraud/
Friendly fire and fraud

October 15, 2006

OF THE thousands of deaths, military and civilian, in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, none so captures the mix of patriotism, impulsiveness, and dishonesty in the US mission as the shooting death of Pat Tillman by members of his own platoon.....

.....But another side of Tillman also emerges: that of a voracious reader with a questioning and independent spirit. In 2003 in Iraq, Tillman's first overseas assignment, he told a fellow soldier that he thought the war was ``[expletive] illegal." According to Smith, Tillman was looking forward after his discharge to having a friend arrange a meeting with Noam Chomsky, the MIT professor and critic of US foreign policy. His father and mother have demonstrated the same searching intelligence as their son in seeking information from the military.......

<b>....and second...because of the deliberate policy of terrorizing the American people:</b>
Five years ago, after the ultimate terrorism psy-op... (Cuba's Mr. Castro is not the longest surviving head of state in the world because of a lack of perceptiveness, cunning, ruthlessness, and intuitiveness...)

http://vdedaj.club.fr/cuba/npa_fidel_20011102.html
TELEVISED PRESENTATION BY PRESIDENT FIDEL CASTRO RUZ ON THE PRESENT INTERNATIONAL SITUATION, THE ECONOMIC AND WORLD CRISIS AND ITS IMPACT ON CUBA. HAVANA, NOVEMBER 2, 2001

.....The chaos and the psychological reaction to anthrax have turned the American society into a hostage of those who want to hurt it, knowing beforehand that they will sow terror. On numerous occasions our country has had to face up to new diseases affecting people, plantations and herds, many of them deliberately introduced. No wonder our country has graduated 67,128 medical doctors and thousands of technicians in plant and animal health. Our people know what should be immediately done in such cases.

No other country in the world compares with the United States in the number of research centers, laboratories and medications, or the capacity to produce them or purchase them, to fight that or any other disease. In the face of real or imaginary risk, either current or future, there is no other choice but to educate the people to cope with them. This is what the Cubans have done.

The causes that gave rise to panic should be analyzed. Certainly, it could not be said that the United States is not in risk of terrorist actions. However, <b>I do not believe that under the present circumstances of generalized alertness, and the measures taken, any group inside or outside America could come up with a coordinated action, organized in every detail for a long time, synchronized and executed with such precision as that of September 11.
</b>
In my view the main <b>risk may lie with individual actions, or actions carried out by very few people from inside or outside America</b> that could cause lesser or greater damage. None can be underestimated. ......

In this thread:
<a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=107435">
Is Anyone Who Terrorizes Americans, Exempt from being Labeled a Terrorist? </a> , I documented examples of our own leader's attempts to terrorize the American people.....

In this thread, I asked the question <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=101881">http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=101881</a>
<b>Is This Really a "Time of War"? Intelligence Appointees Don't Reinforce WARTIME IDEA</b>

.....The Senate confirmed Negroponte in a 95 to 3 vote, but Bush appointed him, and CIA director Porter Goss, as "reformer". All members of congress under investigation in connection with Wade and Wilkes are republicans, becasue they control the government.
Quote:
http://public.cq.com/public/20060303_homeland.html
CQ HOMELAND SECURITY – INTELLIGENCE
March 3, 2006 – 8:44 p.m.
Negroponte Makes the Most of His Post as Minister Without Portfolio
By Jeff Stein, CQ Staff

On many a workday lunchtime, the nominal boss of U.S. intelligence, John D. Negroponte, can be found at a private club in downtown Washington, getting a massage, taking a swim, and having lunch, followed by a good cigar and a perusal of the daily papers in the club’s library.

“He spends three hours there [every] Monday through Friday,” gripes a senior counterterrorism official, noting that the former ambassador has a security detail sitting outside all that time in chase cars. Others say they’ve seen the Director of National Intelligence at the University Club, a 100-year-old mansion-like redoubt of dark oak panels and high ceilings a few blocks from the White House, only “several” times a week.....

....a POTUS with a sincere interest in fighting a necessary GWOT would not appoint a man with this "record" and reputation to be the new DCI "Czar"...
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...atch_Resources

<b>If the goal of John Negroponte was not to terrorize all of us</b>, last February, then why, of all of the "facts" that he could have presented, did he choose to offer only this example of a "jihadist cell", operating in the US?

http://www.dni.gov/testimonies/20060228_testimony.htm
Annual Threat Assessment of the Director of National Intelligence for the Senate Armed Services Committee
Statement by the Director of National Intelligence, John D. Negroponte to the Senate Armed Services Committee
28 February 2006

....<b>New Jihadist Networks and Cells.</b>

....Regrettably, we are not immune from the threat of such “homegrown” jihadist cells. <b>A network of Islamic extremists in Lodi, California, for example,</b> maintained connections with Pakistani militant groups, recruited US citizens for training at radical Karachi madrassas, sponsored Pakistani citizens for travel to the US to work at mosques and madrassas, and according to FBI information, allegedly raised funds for international jihadist groups. In addition, prisons continue to be fertile recruitment ground for extremists who try to exploit converts to Islam.....

...it turned out that Negroponte's only example, of a domestic "jihadist" terrorist threat.....in his February, 2006 <i>Annual Threat Assessment of the Director of National Intelligence </i>testimony, turned out to be this:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...etc/press.html
<b>Press Reaction</b>

James Bamford The New York Times

"'The Enemy Within' argues compellingly that the Lodi case, a showcase trial in the Bush administration's war on domestic terrorism, was largely created out of whole cloth. The country was never in danger from the Hayats but may well be entering a dangerous period of unnecessary and abusive prosecutions."
Walt Belcher The Tampa Tribune

"'Frontline' has done a remarkable job of asking the tough, unpopular questions about the U.S. war on terrorism. …

"There could be cells here plotting something horrific. The question raised by 'The Enemy Within' is about the FBI's ability to stop them. …"
John Hall Washington Dateline

"… [T]here always has been some fear that a sleeper cell might be at work inside the country to follow up [9/11]. …

" 'The Enemy Within' concludes that right now there is no such cell, but raises some far more disturbing questions. That is whether the FBI really is prepared to be the domestic intelligence agency it has to be to detect one. …"
David Kronke Los Angeles Daily News

"'… examines the vexing difficulties involved in locating terrorist sleeper cells tied to al-Qaeda, thanks to the rafts of misinformation that pour into intelligence offices. "

"Nonetheless, reporter Lowell Bergman … notes that there are 'no known sleeper cells' in the U.S. … Instead, authorities chase anything that fails to pass an arcane sniff test. … "

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...mywithin/view/
Soon after 9/11, an FBI informant made an alarming claim: Osama bin Laden's deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, had visited the town of Lodi, Calif. in the late 1990s and attended a mosque there. Moreover, <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/enemywithin/lodi/terrorchart.html">two Pakistani imams</a> preaching at the mosque came from a conservative Islamic school, or madrassa, linked to the former Taliban regime in Afghanistan. According to <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/enemywithin/interviews/scott.html">McGregor Scott</a>, the U.S. attorney who led the federal anti-terror investigation, this was "an attempt by a group of radical Islamic religious figures to come to this country and … establish a madrassa to serve as a recruiting ground."

However, a deeper look at the evidence creates uncertainty about what kind of threat actually did exist in Lodi and provides a case study of America's response to the threat of domestic terrorism. In "The Enemy Within," FRONTLINE and New York Times reporter Lowell Bergman examines the Lodi case and interviews <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/enemywithin/interviews/">FBI and Homeland Security officials</a> to assess U.S. anti-terror efforts

The <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/enemywithin/lodi/">Lodi investigation</a> drew the attention of senior U.S. officials. "A network of Islamic extremists in Lodi," Director of National Intelligence John Negroponte told Congress in February 2006, "maintained connections with Pakistani militant groups, recruited U.S. citizens, … [and] allegedly raised funds for international jihadist groups."

But when Bergman interviews one of the defendants, Umer Hayat, an ice cream truck driver in Lodi, about the terror investigation, the story seems less clear. "I just make [up] a story, that's all," <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/enemywithin/interviews/hayat.html">says Hayat</a>, "because they would not believe me when I was telling the truth." At the trials of Hayat and his son, Hamid, the FBI showed a videotape in which the Hayats confessed to attending a terrorist training camp in Pakistan, but questions remain. After arriving at the bureau's Sacramento office voluntarily, the Hayats were interrogated nonstop for 15 hours without a lawyer present. Separated, they gave different accounts of the camp they had visited, and the FBI did not conduct a follow-up investigation in Pakistan. "You can hear the agents literally dictate to [Hayat] what it is that they thought he was involved in," says <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/enemywithin/interviews/wedick.html">James Wedick</a>, a retired 35-year veteran of the FBI, who reviewed the videos for the defense. "And then he mimics back to them what he thinks that they want to hear."

Editor's Note: Read the <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/enemywithin/lodi/response.html">FBI's response</a> to criticism about how the case was handled.

According to Wedick, from the beginning, the case was based on bad intelligence. He tells FRONTLINE that the idea that Zawahiri had visited Lodi was "totally ludicrous," and prosecutors now admit that the informant was mistaken. The trial ended April 25 with the conviction of Hamid Hayat for attending a training camp and lying to the FBI; the defense has filed an appeal. After the jury deadlocked over charges against Umer Hayat, he pled guilty to an unrelated charge of making a false claim on a customs form and was released.

Critics of the U.S. war on terror, both in and out of government, fear that cases like Lodi demonstrate that the Bush administration, the Justice Department and the FBI have exaggerated <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/enemywithin/reality/">the terrorist threat inside America.</a> "Terrorism itself can be a rallying cry for political purposes," says <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/enemywithin/interviews/brennan.html">John Brennan</a>, founder of the National Counterterrorism Center and 23-year veteran of the CIA. "There is a legitimate concern about terrorism. However, you don't want to overhype it, and I think there has been some of that over the past couple of years."

<b>Watch the result of Negroponte's false "terror" "psy-op".... a Pakistani immigrant loses his home, his business, his wealth, and his son is jailed by a federal jury whipped up by false US government induced hysteria .....watch as Mr. Hayat is reduced to living in a converted, Lodi, CA garage, as his 23 year old son sits in prison...punished for a "crime" that he did not commit:</b>
(Clip #7): http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...mywithin/view/

....lastly...there is this:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...is+campaign%22
October 20, 2006 5:35 PM: The chairman of the Republican National Committee fired up about 100 GOP supporters at a rally today for congressional candidates Peter Roskam and David McSweeney in Rolling Meadows.

RNC Chairman Ken Mehlman called the elections of David McSweeney in the 8th Congressional District and Peter Roskam in the 6th Congressional District "urgent" and said the next 18 days were "absolutely critical."

"It's very possible who controls Congress will come down to one or two seats and it could very easily come down to the people in this room and the people in this area," Mehlman said. "It could very easily come down to the Illinois 6th and it could come down to the Illinois 8th."

Roskam told the crowd at the GOP's campaign headquarters that the "entire world is watching this campaign" against Democrat Tammy Duckworth for the west suburban seat being given up by retiring Rep. Henry Hyde.

As proof, he said a radio producer told him that Al Jazeera--the Arabic language news network--had covered his debate with Duckworth last week. The crowd gasped.

"Now that's a real interesting group that would come out and cover the 6th Congressional District," Roskam observed. "Al Jazeera has an interest in who wins in the 6th Congressional District? I'm telling ya, let's send them an answer, whaddya say?" The crowd cheered.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2..._pacific-3.jpg
<center><img src="http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2005/lowres_20050603154953_1asian_pacific-3.jpg"></center>
Army Maj. Ladda "Tammy" Duckworth of the Illinois Army National Guard's 1st Battalion, 106th Aviation Regiment, narrates the "Salute to Fallen Asian Pacific Islander Heroes." during the Defense Department's Asian Pacific American Heritage Month luncheon and military awards ceremony in Arlington, Va., June 2. An Army Black Hawk helicopter pilot, Duckworth suffered the loss of both legs when a rocket-propelled grenade penetrated her helicopter beneath her feet and exploded at her knees in Iraq. Photo by Rudi Williams (Click photo for screen-resolution image);high-resolution image available.

<a href="http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Mar/17/ln/ln01p.html">Can-do spirit rises from crash</a>
<center><img src="http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2005/Mar/17/ln01b.jpg"></center>

<b>I'm sorry, Chris....IMO, it's way past the time for what you propose in your OP, to have any relevance. These traitors who terrorize us, lie to us, sell us out for political power and greed, are our own countrymen...the folks who claim to lead and protect us. We either counter them in fair and open elections now.... peacefully....deliberately.... and if they've pre-empted the possibility of </b> uncorrupted voter registration, voting, and accurate tabulation of the vote.... then ultimately, a bloody conflict to resolve this coup d'etat.....will be played out in the streets across this country.

[mixedmedia]

The thoughts that have brewing in my mind for a while:

The left/right divide is big business. And job security for politicians invested in the two-party system. I've been thinking that we're all being played for fools.

[Paq]

ya know..i think that's what i'm getting at in a round about way.

I just hoped that our gov't wasn't so involved with business that it would actually work out, as it has done in the past, instead of push this divide down our throats..

We are being played for patsies...no doubt about it anymore. As soon as you throw the business element in, you get a nice little motive on why the separation is there and what hte utmost purpose is.

Kinda looks like the gov't/big business/etc is applying a simple divide and conquer strategy against the american people.

i think i'm beginning to see where DKsuddeth is coming from, honestly...

[mixedmedia]

When you start thinking about all the people whose livelihoods are either partly or completely dependent on there being two acutely diverse political ideologies in the US it does make you wonder...

Glad to hear you saying these things, too, 'cause sometimes I wonder if I'm going nuts with these sorts of thoughts. It was so much easier when I played along.

[host]

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

When you start thinking about all the people whose livelihoods are either partly or completely dependent on there being two acutely diverse political ideologies in the US it does make you wonder...

Glad to hear you saying these things, too, 'cause sometimes I wonder if I'm going nuts with these sorts of thoughts. It was so much easier when I played along.

Is it your opinion that there are "two acutely diverse political ideologies"? If that is the case....in the senate....with it's reputation for being the more deliberative legislative body, and not as politically motivated as the house, with it's two year election cycle, is.....how would you explain the 95 to 2, <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=101881">2005 vote</a> that resulted in the approval of the appointment of a man like John Negroponte as the US "Intelligence Czar"?

The agenda of most elected officials is remarkablly similar, it is a corporatist deiven agenda, and that is why I believe that the "friction" is more evident in the trenches....in places like this, than it is on the house or senate floor.

The 2005 bankruptcy "reform" bill got passed because some democrats (Joe Biden MBNA-DE, is a prime example)....put their corporate allegiances ahead of what was best for their larger constituency. The passage of the "torture bill", a few weeks ago, drew many democratic party affiliated representatives' "yes" votes.

The opposition comes from too few senators and congressmen, and from folks like me.....unless something changes on Nov. 7. Would the American people vote for a fleet of huge, expensive nuclear powered aircraft carriers....and approve the construction and deployment of even more of them, if they knew that their existence was more about defensive contractors making money, than it is about a strong, national defense? These dinosaurs suck up more out of action maintenance time and taxpayer money, than the total time that they can actually be deployed. This guarantees that more than 12 are neccessary to even deply 6 of them at any given time:

http://www.historycentral.com/NAVY/CVN69Eisenhower.html
CVN-69 USS Dwight D. Eisenhower

Construction of the third nuclear-powered and second Nimitz-class
aircraft carrier, USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69) was authorized by Congress in fiscal year 1970.

The carrier, named after the nation's 34th president, was christened at 11:11 a.m., Oct. 11, 1975, by Mrs. Mamie Doud-Eisenhower, the ship's sponsor and widow of the late president. IKE was commissioned on Oct. 18, 1977, under the command of Capt. William E. Ramsey, USN, and assigned to the Atlantic Fleet. After <b>14 months of fleet training</b>, IKE set sail for her first Mediterranean deployment.

Since that time, <b>IKE has completed eight Mediterranean
deployments.</b> In 1980, IKE's second extended deployment tallied 254 days at sea with only a five-day stopover in Singapore.

After its fourth deployment IKE sailed into Newport News and
Drydock in October 1985 for a complex overhaul. The <b>18-month yard period</b> included the addition of the Close-in Weapons System, NATO Seasparrow Missile System, Navy Tactical Data System,
Anti-Submarine Warfare module, communications upgrades and
rehabilitation of 1,831 berths in 25 compartments. <b>IKE re-entered the fleet in April 1987.</b>

In 1990, IKE completed its sixth Mediterranean Sea deployment.
The deployment became a commemorative event in the worldwide
'Dwight D. Eisenhower Centennial,' celebrating the 100th anniversary of the late president's birth. During D-Day anniversary ceremonies off the coast of Normandy, IKE's son, John Eisenhower,and D-Day
veterans embarked in the ship while Carrier Air Wing Seven conducted a memorial flyover of the American cemetery at Ohmaha Beach.

In response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, IKE became the first
carrier to conduct sustained operations in the Red Sea. IKE was the second nuclear-powered aircraft carrier to transit the Suez canal. IKE served as a ready striking force in the event Iraq invaded Saudi Arabia, and participated in maritime interception operations in support of a
United National embargo against Iraq.

After completion of <b>an extensive shipyard period and work ups,
IKE deployed Sept. 26, 1991</b> to the Arabian Gulf to continue
multi-national operations with coalition forces in support of Operation
Desert Storm. <b>IKE returned to Norfolk April 2, 1992. On Jan. 6,
1993, IKE entered Norfolk Naval Shipyard for overhaul and
conversion,and returned to the fleet November 12, 1993.</b>

In September 1994, IKE and the U.S. Army 10th Mountain
Division again made history with the concept of "adaptive force
packaging." The division's soldiers and equipment were loaded on
board, and the IKE Army and Navy team headed for Port-au-Prince to spearhead Operation Uphold Democracy, the U.S. - led effort to restore he democratically elected government of Haiti.

One month later, in October 1994, IKE departed for a six-month
deployment which included flying missions in support of Operations Southern Watch and Deny Flight. This deployment marked the firstT ime that women had deployed as crewmembers of a U.S. Navy combatant. The IKE, Carrier Wing Three, and COMCRUDESGRU Eight team included more than 400 women.

<b>IKE returned to Newport News Shipbuilding on July 17, 1995,
for an 18-month complex overhaul which was completed on Jan. 27, 1997. </b>The ship departed on its 10th deployment on June 10,1998 and returned in December. <b>In February 1999, IKE returned to the Norfolk Navy Shipyard for a six-month refitting</b> and returned to the fleet in June. Upon completion in June 1999, she returned to full duty in the fleet.

http://www02.clf.navy.mil/eisenhower/history.html

In February 2000, IKE departed Norfolk, for its "Millennium Cruise" to the Mediterranean Sea and Arabian Gulf. After six months at sea and a variety of port calls including Haifa, Bahrain and Lisbon, IKE returned to Norfolk in August 2000. This deployment marked a milestone in the ship's history with the air wing’s first combat ordinance delivery while operating in support of Operation Southern Watch in Iraq.

<b> On May 24, 2001, IKE entered the Northrop Grumman Newport News (NGNN) shipyard for her mid-life Refueling Complex Overhaul where nearly every space and system on board was upgraded and overhauled.

After almost four years at NGNN, IKE returned to her homeport at Naval Station Norfolk, Virginia, on January 25, 2005.</b> The ship completed Sea Trials on March 25, 2005 and after several months of operations, <b> IKE finished a four-month Post Shakedown Availability and Selected Restricted Availability in October 2005. Carrier Strike Group Eight moved aboard in November 2005, and Carrier Air Wing Seven returned to train with the ship in February 2006.</b>

IKE departed Norfolk, Va., on October 3, 2006, for her first deployment since 2000.

http://www.gao.gov/archive/1998/ns98001.pdf

NAVY AIRCRAFT CARRIERS: Cost-Effectiveness of Conventionally and Nuclear Powered Carriers

<b>The consensus in congress for an inefficient and outmoded weapons system comes from the benfits that a large fleet of carriers brings to:</b>

http://www.nn.northropgrumman.com/ne..._ike_move.html
USS DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER MOVES OUT OF DRY DOCK, ONE MONTH AHEAD OF SCHEDULE AT NORTHROP GRUMMAN NEWPORT NEWS

NEWPORT NEWS, Va.— December 16, 2002 – Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE: NOC) announced today that the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN 69) has moved out of dry dock one month ahead of schedule and is halfway through its three year refueling and complex overhaul (RCOH).....

In the late 90's, defense contractors like Northrop, actually has to consolidate and merge. Who benefits most from the five years of downtime and "half life" overhaul of the USS Eisenhower, you and me....or Northrop and the politicians that it courts for appropriations votes in congress?

I don't think that there is nearly enough deviciveness in the US today. I, for one, am not nearly as angry and active in protest as I should be, and I do try to be informed. We live in a merged, right wing, corporatist driven politcal system that long ago supplanted a bipartisan republic. We don't yet even recognize that...much less accept it and work to reverse it.

[mixedmedia]

Originally Posted by host

Is it your opinion that there are "two acutely diverse political ideologies"? If that is the case....in the senate....with it's reputation for being the more deliberative legislative body, and not as politically motivated as the house, with it's two year election cycle, is.....how would you explain the 95 to 2, <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=101881">2005 vote</a> that resulted in the approval of the appointment of a man like John Negroponte as the US "Intelligence Czar"?

No, my opinion is that it is in the best interest of those in politics, republicans and democrats, to have their constituencies sharply divided, thereby assuring blindly ideological voting blocs, thereby further marginalizing third party politics. Your observation that republicans and democrats get along better at work than does the voting public is both true and fits nicely into my personal theory that for the media business the promotion of political turmoil is opportunistic, and for the politics business itself, it is a matter of job security and maintainance of the DC status quo.

[Paq]

i find it odd how they can come together on a deeeeeeeeeply divided issue...

but when it comes time to get votes, it's a whole other matter entirely. I think each one has their party on a string and simply has to tug to get the votes they need...that is probably why the bill oreillys of the world are saying the dems don't have a unified message..IE, they don't have the same 'issue strings' that the republicans have in place...


IE...we are being plllaaayyyyyeeeeeddddd

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by Paq

i find it odd how they can come together on a deeeeeeeeeply divided issue...

but when it comes time to get votes, it's a whole other matter entirely. I think each one has their party on a string and simply has to tug to get the votes they need...that is probably why the bill oreillys of the world are saying the dems don't have a unified message..IE, they don't have the same 'issue strings' that the republicans have in place...


IE...we are being plllaaayyyyyeeeeeddddd

played like a 12 string guitar held by richie sambora.

The two major parties LIKE the divide, especially when it plays in their favor. The real fault lies with us though, we the people, because we've become very lackadaisical and non-comittal in regards to our political processes and who we vote in to office. We see straight party voters, no matter the character of the candidate, and certain locales who, despite KNOWING the major flaws and hypocrisy of the candidate in question, still re-elect him time and again in to that position of power. Several examples would include Ted Kennedy, Tom Delay, Bill Clinton, and Michael Bloomberg, but the list goes on and on. We let these major parties tell us that they epitomize the 'values' of their constituency and that they will represent us with legislation by voting the same way YOU would vote, then turn around and vote AGAINST what your values really are. Then they get re-elected again and do the same.

We become single issue voters by being forced to prioritize what we consider the single most important issue, because we are deprived of any real 'choice' in our elections. When Ross Perot ran for POTUS and siphoned off alot of the 'conservative' vote, the republicans (along with the democrats) saw their power lessened by a third party candidate. They then conspired to legislate even tighter restrictions on 3rd party candidates to make it on the ballot, keeping our choices limited. Deepening the divide.

How to fix the issue?

First off, we REALLY NEED to come to an understanding of what the US constitution and B of R is for, what it truly means (not what we wish it to mean), and to go back and realize we've left the true values of freedom and liberty behind us. We then need to abandon, completely, this two party system that divides us and bring in 3rd party candidates or independents who wish to bring back the originalist intentions. I don't ever see this happening though because a greater percentage of the population is too accustomed to what they think is right and wrong.

The divide will eventually destroy our 'superpower' status because it will evolve in to such a divide that only a revolution or civil war will be able to settle the matter. I say settle and not fix because there is no guarantee it will do either.

[Paq]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igycX...elated&search=

and this this happens

Habeas corpus..RIP.

[Telluride]

Originally Posted by host

Sorry, Chris. Not a chance of anything better than a bloodless, political holding action.....<b>first....because of the lies:</b>

<b>Background on Kevin Tillman's rant:</b>

I agree with a number of the issues brought up in Kevin Tillman's "rant". The big problem I see with this country is that many people seem to think that all this stuff began with George W. Bush's election in 2000 and will end whenever the Democrats regain control of the government (whether it's in 2006, 2008, 2010, etc.).

The government was shitting on our individual rights, lying to us, misusing the military, trading reason for dogma, etc. long before Bush became president and, in some cases, before he had even been born.