06-13-2008, 02:02 PM | #161 (permalink) |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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What population? They are not representing a population.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
06-13-2008, 02:09 PM | #162 (permalink) |
We work alone
Location: Cake Town
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Right. I'm talking about a war in general. Country vs country.
For this "war on terror", I posted a good quote from Swordfish. We do what they do, only 10 times harder. The thing is that I don't see the US winning anything any time in the future. I spoke to a friend of mine few days ago who is in Afghanistan right now. They're losing.
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Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques |
06-13-2008, 02:14 PM | #163 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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this is the logic that resulted in the french loosing in algeria.
fighting an enemy they could not find, they were led by this thinking to effectively declare war on the entire algerian population, beginning with the intelligensia, which was defined in both a strict-ish and pol-pot kinda way at the same time. in the end, they created mass support for the relatively small organization that they initially were fighting (the fln) and made it into what it purported to be from the outset (but wasn't)---it's not a viable general logic. it only works in conventional nation-state vs nation-state conflicts--and even then, it's of limited utility. there is a therapeutic function for the folk who get to make such statements, but that usually stands on it's head as well. unless you want to treat the entire world as rome did carthage--but hey, why stop there? the enemy is within as well--lay waste to them as sow their spaces with salt. but what happens if that action generates more enemies within? and what happens when you yourself begin to wonder what the fuck you're doing? it only sounds coherent, what you are arguing.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
06-13-2008, 02:17 PM | #164 (permalink) |
We work alone
Location: Cake Town
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Actually, that's why I said that I don't like and don't support this war. Terrorism is everywhere and it is not likely to end.
It makes as much as sense as the war on drugs.
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Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques |
06-13-2008, 02:45 PM | #165 (permalink) |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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Not likely to end. Yes. I think people are finally accepting this.
With acceptance again, comes the capacity for rationale...even if it is of a dejected and acquiescent sort. But at least you can move forward from that. Yep, the rest of the world finally caught up with 'merica.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
06-13-2008, 05:16 PM | #166 (permalink) | ||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Did you read the opinions? Did you look at the law in question? There are controls in place. Controls requested by the courts and legislation passed by Congress with some bi-lateral support. Quote:
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 06-13-2008 at 05:22 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-13-2008, 06:38 PM | #167 (permalink) | |||
Location: Washington DC
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After the SCOTUS ruled in 2004 (Rasul v. Bush) that detainees have the right to challenge the legality of their detention in US courts (applications for habeas corpus), he got the Republican Congress to enact the Detainee Treatment Act in 2005, which officially stripped the federal courts of any authority to hear detainee cases. The SCOTUS overturned that law in 2006 (Humdi v Rumsfeld) when it ruled that military commissions at Guantanamo Bay violated the laws of war and international conventions. ...which resulted in another attempt to circumvent the Constitution and international conventions with the Military Commissions Act, that in effect was overturned by the most recent decision (Boumediene v. Bush). The court ruled that detainees have rights under the Constitution to challenge their detention in civilian courts. "The laws and Constitution are designed to survive, and remain in force, in extraordinary times. Liberty and security can be reconciled; and in our system, they are reconciled within the framework of law. The Framers decided that habeas corpus, a right of first importance, must be a part of that framework, part of that law." - Justice Anthony Kennedy in the majority opinon Quote:
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - attributed to Benjamin Franklin
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-14-2008 at 06:06 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-14-2008, 05:22 AM | #168 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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06-14-2008, 06:18 AM | #169 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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I cannot believe the suggestion that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were America's greatest wartime atrocities--and should not have happened--is so open for debate. They were monstrous acts. Deplorable. America's greatest failure of humanity. It's that simple. To suggest wanton cruelty in retaliation to an enemy, especially where civilians are concerted, and simply in the name of war, overlooks a basic humanism that, when lost, forever changes the face of a nation. A no-holds-barred approach to war, especially in this day and age of communication and community has no place in the world. That America must do this suggests its power is waning. The failures of the American industrial complex isn't the worst of the nation's problems, yet it is the most indicative sign of an overall misguidance and loss of ingenuity.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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06-14-2008, 07:37 PM | #170 (permalink) | |
Tilted
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Of course now we get to capture them and allow them to try and convince institutions that wouldn't exist, if they had their wishes, that they were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm sure a few will succeed too. |
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06-16-2008, 07:27 AM | #171 (permalink) | |||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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06-16-2008, 07:58 AM | #172 (permalink) | |||
Location: Washington DC
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Article 1, section 9The detainees held at Gitmo are part of neither a rebellion nor an invasion. In fact, a large number of the detainees were guilty of nothing but being caught up in a sweep or turned in by a neighbor for cash....and after as many as 4+ years in Gitmo w/o being charge, w/o access to legal counsel, family or anyone, had no rights at all. An eight-month McClatchy investigation in 11 countries on three continents has found that.... according to several officials, perhaps hundreds — whom the U.S. has wrongfully imprisoned in Afghanistan, Cuba and elsewhere on the basis of flimsy or fabricated evidence, old personal scores or bounty payments. Quote:
It was Bush/Gonzales who unilatterly determined a new definition of persons who are not guaranteed habeaus under Article I, Sect 9 or the Geneva Conventions. (see below #174- Gonzales explanation at Judiciary Commttee hearing) The courts have rejected that on three separate occasions now. Quote:
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-16-2008 at 08:55 AM.. |
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06-16-2008, 08:04 AM | #173 (permalink) |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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ace, I've seen you question the usage of the word "unilateral" several times now.
Here's a hint: when new law is signed into effect in a signing statement that Congress never saw, that's unilateral. When new policies and rules are implemented top-down straight out of the Commander In Chief's office, that's unilateral. I know you'd like to have Congress (sorry: "the Democratic Congress"--never mind that the majority is razor-slim) be complicit in this, but the fact is, they're not. They're no angels, but in this, the Executive Branch acted utterly alone. What REALLY scares me is, this ruling was 5 to 4. One more right-winger on the SCOTUS, and this shit would be constitutional. |
06-16-2008, 11:26 AM | #175 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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06-16-2008, 01:07 PM | #176 (permalink) |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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We have a presidency that has acted like royalty or a dictatorship, is my point. The SCOTUS, by an alarmingly slim margin of 5 to 4, brought them somewhat to heel, but the damage has WAY been done.
How DO you feel about presidential signing statements that significantly amend or create exceptions to newly-signed law, ace? Or about policies about prisoner treatment (as just one example) that fly in the face of morality, convention and treaty, which got created in the Oval Office without any oversight from anybody? Doesn't that seem a bit unilateral? Do you have a problem with those things? I certainly do, but I'd love to hear your reasoning if you don't. The question of whether you think those things actually happened is a DIFFERENT question. I'm less interested in your answer to that other question, but I suppose if you have to give your answer to it, feel free. Please do NOT use that second question as a means to not have to answer the first one. Not that you'd ever be that intellectually dishonest--I'm just pointing out one mistake you might make if you weren't paying attention. |
06-16-2008, 01:27 PM | #177 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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06-16-2008, 01:50 PM | #178 (permalink) |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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Right, well, you dodged the question after all.
There's NO STRUCTURE for reviewing presidential signing statements. They were mere comments before Bush started changing law in them. They're utterly extraconstitutional. And technically, they carry no legal weight, except that Bush authorized military action based on them. So now you've got the US military following laws that aren't laws except the boss says they are, and there's no procedure for any other branch of government to balance it. THAT'S what we mean by unilateral. Now: I know in aceland, that never happened. My question for you is, IF IT DID, you would you have a problem with that? Last edited by ratbastid; 06-16-2008 at 01:54 PM.. |
06-16-2008, 02:15 PM | #179 (permalink) |
Wehret Den Anfängen!
Location: Ontario, Canada
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So, the USA has passed a law saying "we feel it is right that the US President can kidnap and torture citizens of every other nation on the entire planet at a whim. This power should not be subject to any kind of judicial review, reasonable process, or congressional review. To every citizen of every other nation of the entire world: fuck you."
I just wanted to see if I understood the meaning of this law. Did I miss anything important, or otherwise misunderstand?
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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest. |
06-16-2008, 02:59 PM | #180 (permalink) |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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You forgot to say thank you.
__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
06-16-2008, 09:06 PM | #181 (permalink) | ||
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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Now perhaps someone can help me make sure I am up to speed on this, but the latest supreme court ruling effectively upholds the detentions still, only it allows the detainee's to challenge their status, correct? Still the point of contention seems to be that people don't think the US military should be allowed to "arrest" people as illegal combatants. The catch with that issue is that there is no codified means of determining what makes one's status illegal, rather it is determined by a treaty one century old and what isn't codified in treaties such as geneva. Again, if the courts state the men are allowed to challenge their status, would that not mean that Habeas stands? If that is the case, which the SC's decision seems to point to, I would take that as a big example that the detentions at Guantanamo Bay are completely legal and not arbitrary... so long as they allow the challenges to status. I thought this might help, read the bold... Quote:
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 06-16-2008 at 09:08 PM.. |
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06-16-2008, 09:13 PM | #182 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed..."
There's no asterisk that says "unless you're an 'enemy combatant'" in there. The person is only described as "the accused". And if you're not accused, then you're free to go. |
06-16-2008, 09:20 PM | #183 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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Do military personnel get tried by a civilian court? Besides I sure these men are not being tried in criminal proceedings in the same sense I were if I got a DUI or murdered somebody. They were picked up by the military, thusly they are regulated to tribunals. Do I need to dust off Ex Parte Quirin?
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
06-17-2008, 04:54 AM | #184 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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My understanding of how this has played out: Bush first attempted to make the case that they had no rights under the Constitution because they were not being held on US soil and the US had no sovereignty over Gitmo (Cuba still maintains sovereignty). The USSC said NO....the US has jurisdiction over Gitmo (as a result of treaty w/Cuba) so non-combatants have rights. As a result of that decision, Bush brought the Republican Congress into the act. Then came the "military tribunals or commissions" as defined in the Detainee Treatment Act.....it did not provide the detainees with direct access to the federal courts, but only with access to a fair and impartial hearing to a tribunal constitutionally authorized by Congress and proceeding with certain due process guarantees comparable to the UCMJ or the terms of the Geneva Conventions. The USSC said NO again....and struck it down because it failed to meet that test of providing rights comparable to the UCMJ and the Geneva Conventions. So Bush and hs friends in Congress tried again with the Military Commissions Act. The USSC said NO for a third time and ruled that detainees have rights under the Constitution to challenge their detention in civilian courts...including the right to habeas corpus. And I would point readers again to the fact that a large number of the detainees (hundreds?) were not terrorists or enemy non-combatants or even guilty of anything at all but being caught up in a sweep or turned in by a neighbor for cash....and after as many as 4+ years in Gitmo w/o being charge, w/o access to legal counsel, family or anyone, had no virtually rights at all. An eight-month McClatchy investigation in 11 countries on three continents has found that.... according to several officials, perhaps hundreds — whom the U.S. has wrongfully imprisoned in Afghanistan, Cuba and elsewhere on the basis of flimsy or fabricated evidence, old personal scores or bounty payments.This is a very good and straight forward graphic on Detainees and the Rule of Law (pdf) added...on the issue of torture: The Senate Armed Services Committee is beginning hearings today to review the origins of Bush's policies regarding torture. ooops...I should say "enhanced interrogation techniques"...we all know that the US doesnt torture...because Bush/Cheney/Rice/Mukasey say we dont and since Bush has unilaterally defined "enhanced interrogation techniques" ....we should take their word for it? The Committee is still demanding the appearance of John Woo, the DoJ official who wrote the infamous "justification for torture" memo that has guided the Bush policy....torture is defined as resulting in death, organ failure or serious impairment of body functions"...anything else is acceptable.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-17-2008 at 05:38 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-17-2008, 06:16 AM | #185 (permalink) | ||||
Wehret Den Anfängen!
Location: Ontario, Canada
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You do know that this is what the court cases are about? Not about torture -- just "you haven't even STATED and PROVEN why these people are being held". The prisoners are completely arbitrarily. Some functionary said "keep this person in jail", and based off nothing but that they are in jail for an indefinite period. Quote:
* This being limited to non-US citizens is possibly true. Hence the "rest of the world: fuck you". Also note that the US holds that it has the right to invade other countries, kidnap people there, and do with them as they please. This isn't "other countries that are terrorist havens" -- it fucking happened in Italy, while one branch of the US government was tracking down someone with the help of the Italian government, another jumped in and kidnapped (while speaking openly over Company cell phones, idiots) someone. Quote:
Or am I in error? Has the US not bagged the heads of "bad people", made them form human periods, attached electrodes to the penis and balls of prisoners, and fucking photographed them and bragged about it? Has the US Senate not passed a bill saying "so long as you don't torture Americans, go ahead and make your own decisions about how far you can go Mr President. Do whatever you want. We place no limits on what you do to non-Americans"? Has the US Congress and Senate not sat idly by as the US executive branch has claimed the right to imprison without trial, without review, without access to law, any foreign individual that the US executive branch feels like imprisoning, for as long as the US executive branch feels like? So I say again: have I misread the "FUCK YOU" that the US government, the agent of the people, is sending the entire fucking world? I need to know. Elections are coming up, and there are various parties. Some want to continue supporting missions that help the US government, and not say "fuck you" to the US government. Others want to withdraw all help to the US government's military adventures abroad. You may or may not care -- but right now, Canadian troops are engaged in the hottest part of Afghanistan, with fatality rates that exceed any other military organization engaged in US-allied military adventures. Is the US saying "fuck you" to me? I have an election to prepare for.
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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest. |
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06-17-2008, 07:20 AM | #186 (permalink) | ||||||||||||||
Banned
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Is this the condition, at the time of arrest....: Quote:
If the officials and their policies were above board, why the misleading statements from them, then the threats against their critics, then McClatcheys new "truth to power" reporting, just this week.....Mojo...they "arrest" the wrong effing people, and without swift hearings before an impartial judge in a civilian court, where the evidence can be examined, and the charges against the arrestee heard....and the arrestee given a chance to prevent his version, and produce any evidence he might have in his own defense....you get this embarassing, tragic, counter-productive, anti international law....EFFECTS...we show you, over and over, and over....and you still must be taking Bush/Cheney at their word, or you wouldn't have posted what you did...... From an old post, circa Dec., 2006: Quote:
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06-17-2008, 08:41 AM | #187 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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Host it's clearly not me who is "not getting it". Your hatred for Bush has completely blinded you to the logical and obvious answer concerning Gitmo.
The Supreme Court has ruled on Gitmo, like in the past they are upholding the detentions so long as the prisoners have a chance to challenge their detentions. That is the whole basis of Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, where the detentions and tribunals were upheld. Not only that but they said, albeit narrowly, that the government, or in this case Boogeyman Bush was authorized by the "Authorization for Use of Military Force". You catch that Host, the Supreme Court upheld a lower courts opinion that the AUMF from 9-19-2001 gave the President authority! For the record I'm not upset, I'm merely confounded how people here cannot come to terms with this. Nor am I defending everything the administration has done in regards to Gitmo. But by and large I do not have a problem with the operation, so long as the SC's decision is followed and the men can challenge their status.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
06-17-2008, 08:52 AM | #188 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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There's nothing logical about torture, as anyone involved in psychology can verify that torture cannot produce reliable intel. There's nothing logical about holding people without trial, as it means spending money punishing people who are likely innocent (if they were guilty, they'd be able to try them). There's nothing logical about making prisoners do a human pyramid naked. surrounded by
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06-17-2008, 08:55 AM | #189 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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Mojo:
In Hamdi v Rumsfeld, the Court struck down the provisions of the Detainee Treatment Act's military commissions because they did not provide detainees the rights comparable to UCMJ or Genenva Conventions. The latest decision, Boumediene v. Bush, went further and struck down the provisions of the Military Commissions Act and affirmed that detainees have the right to challenge their confinement in federal courts through habeas filing. And yet all of that ignores the fact that many of the detainees (hundreds?) should never have been there in the first place.....they were not "terrorists" or even alleged terrorists, they did not attack US forces in Afghanistan or Iraq.....they got caught up in the sweep and held for 4+ years w/o any cause. I dont understand how anyone can justify that.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-17-2008 at 09:00 AM.. |
06-17-2008, 08:59 AM | #190 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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If these 'detainees' had been picked up in combat, it could easily be accepted that gitmo is the place for them, however, that did not happen with most or even all of these people. The 'right' to plead their case belongs to them to determine their status.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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06-17-2008, 09:09 AM | #191 (permalink) |
Banned
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I show you all their intentionally misleading statements (i.e. ..."lies")describing who they've detained at Gitmo....instead of trying to defend the statements linked to whitehouse.gov pages..for you to verify, you post, "Host, you hate Bush"..... If my opinion is challenged, I counter the points in the challenge. This is all part of the "grab more power via playing the fear card"....how many cities are we gonna lose, Newt? http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...6/16/gingrich/ ....it's getting old, cost us lots of lives, lots of money...in an intentional campaign of deception designed to control us....nothing to defend about....certainly not by blaming me for who you think that I hate....
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06-17-2008, 09:09 AM | #192 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-17-2008 at 09:14 AM.. |
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06-17-2008, 09:23 AM | #193 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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06-17-2008, 09:45 AM | #194 (permalink) |
Banned
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will, they decided on an "offshore prison" they said was extra territorial....outside the jurisdiction of US courts. It's purpose was as a "fear prop"....designed to be filled with what Cheney called, "bad actors"....to be held up to us in all of the linked declarations inluded in my two posts back, post.
They reasoned that their fear card would be more effectively played if they could refer to hundreds of "terrorists captured on the battlefield".....and all of their elaborate "we'll provide the fear to justify the power grab", worked great for Bush and Cheney....so well that democratic leaders Rockefeller and Hoyer were reported on sunday in Wapo to be nearing a FISA "reform" compromise that will give the white house everything it demanded....electronic surveillance with no authorization by a judge based on examination of evidence to justify it.....probable cause. Mojo's side doesn't care if the whole fear presentation is contrived, false, or intended as a power grab. They know that moving toward government by unaccountable, "decider" executive will "make us safe"....we won't lose the city Newt is worried about losing....we just lose the entire country instead, served up, to the decider, by the legislative majority.....unless this 5 to 4 supreme court split is still there, to rule against the coming power grab laws, like the FISA "reform". |
06-17-2008, 10:01 AM | #195 (permalink) | ||
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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From Duke Law:
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http://www.law.duke.edu/publiclaw/su...entary/hamvrum
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
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06-17-2008, 01:42 PM | #196 (permalink) |
Wehret Den Anfängen!
Location: Ontario, Canada
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So just to be clear -- I am right, and this law is a "fuck you" to the citizens of every other nation on the entire Earth?
I'm looking for help here to make a concrete, real-world decision. The election could be triggered literally any day now. I can support a party that will continue supplying about 20% of all front-line combat troops in Afghanistan, in an alliance with the USA, or I can support a party that will withdraw all military involvement in Afghanistan as soon as possible. Who will win is completely up in the air. Am I right in thinking that it is the position of the US executive, and now US Senate, that at the whim of the US president any person in the entire world can be kidnapped, moved to a secret location, held in secret, interrogated using whatever techniques the US president chooses, have no ability to contest their incarceration for 5+ years, and this is all perfectly OK, legal, official, up-and-up, every-day, hum-drum acts, as far as the USA is concerned? Because, that isn't the kind of thing I want to be in alliance with. So, someone please, tell me where my error is. Does the USA find kidnapping people, detaining them for 5+ years without any kind of real judicial review, "interrogating" them using techniques that are banned under the Geneva convention (chosen in secret), as acceptable, so long as the person in question does not hold a US citizenship? Is that the official position of your government?
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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest. |
06-17-2008, 01:45 PM | #197 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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Stevens wrote the majority opinion in Hamdan v Rumsfeld...joined by Kennedy, Suter, Ginsburg and Breyer.... Scalia, Thomas and Alito, the "evil conservatives" dissented: The Supreme Court, in a 5-to-3 decision authored by Justice John Paul Stevens, held that neither an act of Congress nor the inherent powers of the Executive laid out in the Constitution expressly authorized the sort of military commission at issue in this case. Absent that express authorization, the commission had to comply with the ordinary laws of the United States and the laws of war. The Geneva Convention, as a part of the ordinary laws of war, could therefore be enforced by the Supreme Court, along with the statutory Uniform Code of Military Justice.This was in 2006, two years after the Hamdi v Rumsfeld case to which you refer. Quote:
But the Supreme Court is the ultimate decider and the latest ruling is a "fuck you" to Bush.....but for the record Supreme Court justices never say fuck you...at least in their formal opinions. However, the larger problem still persists.....US troops can pretty grab and detain anyone that want off the streets of Baghdad or Kabul and hold them with no charges or just cause in the name of "fighting terrorism."
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-17-2008 at 04:56 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-17-2008, 06:03 PM | #198 (permalink) |
Wehret Den Anfängen!
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Did the supreme court free the non-American citizens imprisioned on nothing but the say of the President for 5 years without access to habius corpus? Did it state that those who kept them imprisioned over those 5 years should be punished for their action?
As far as I can tell, the answer is "no" and "no". I'm sorry, kidnapping someone, "interrogating" them with arbitrary classified torture mechanisms, and holding them for 5 years with no option to contest the imprisonment in anything that isn't a kangaroo court, is already a "fuck you". If I read the ruling right, the Supreme Court simply said "the kangaroo court you produced isn't good enough. Feel free to make up a new kangaroo court, hold them, torture them as much as you want, and then come back to us in a few more years and we'll see if that new kangaroo court is enough." What the ruling doesn't say is "you have failed to uphold habeus corpus, and as such you may not legally hold these individuals any more". Or declared that individuals who held these individuals illegally are guilty of kidnapping, illegal imprisonment, etc. Or said "Given the extreme delays, you have 1 week to place these people in front of a civilian judge, and that judge has the power to release these individuals if insufficient evidence for imprisonment is presented within 2 months." Those would be a "no, this isn't right, you aren't allowed to do it, stop it". Instead, it appears like it is being treated as a minor procedural error.
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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest. |
06-17-2008, 07:42 PM | #199 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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Yakk....your interpretation as a non-American is a fair and reasonable interpretation. I cant argue with it at all.
Which might explain, in part, why Bush is considered the world leader second least likely to do the right thing regarding world affairs. In a recent World Public Opinion poll of 20 nations, a majority of citizens in only two of those countries (Nigeria and India) have “a lot” or “some” confidence that President Bush will do “the right thing regarding world affairs.” Bush ranks below Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad but just edges out Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf as the world's worst leader. Which might also explain why most of Bush's "war on terrorism" has been a successful recruiting tool for terrorist.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-17-2008 at 07:45 PM.. |
06-17-2008, 10:09 PM | #200 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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This is just more evidence that the GWOT is a massive human rights disaster. In trying to "fight terrorism" we have become the antagonists to all that is moral and just. |
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approves, senate, terrorists, torture |
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