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Old 06-13-2008, 02:02 PM   #161 (permalink)
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What population? They are not representing a population.
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Old 06-13-2008, 02:09 PM   #162 (permalink)
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Right. I'm talking about a war in general. Country vs country.

For this "war on terror", I posted a good quote from Swordfish. We do what they do, only 10 times harder. The thing is that I don't see the US winning anything any time in the future. I spoke to a friend of mine few days ago who is in Afghanistan right now. They're losing.
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Old 06-13-2008, 02:14 PM   #163 (permalink)
 
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this is the logic that resulted in the french loosing in algeria.
fighting an enemy they could not find, they were led by this thinking to effectively declare war on the entire algerian population, beginning with the intelligensia, which was defined in both a strict-ish and pol-pot kinda way at the same time. in the end, they created mass support for the relatively small organization that they initially were fighting (the fln) and made it into what it purported to be from the outset (but wasn't)---it's not a viable general logic. it only works in conventional nation-state vs nation-state conflicts--and even then, it's of limited utility.

there is a therapeutic function for the folk who get to make such statements, but that usually stands on it's head as well.

unless you want to treat the entire world as rome did carthage--but hey, why stop there? the enemy is within as well--lay waste to them as sow their spaces with salt. but what happens if that action generates more enemies within? and what happens when you yourself begin to wonder what the fuck you're doing?

it only sounds coherent, what you are arguing.
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Old 06-13-2008, 02:17 PM   #164 (permalink)
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Actually, that's why I said that I don't like and don't support this war. Terrorism is everywhere and it is not likely to end.

It makes as much as sense as the war on drugs.
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Old 06-13-2008, 02:45 PM   #165 (permalink)
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Not likely to end. Yes. I think people are finally accepting this.

With acceptance again, comes the capacity for rationale...even if it is of a dejected and acquiescent sort. But at least you can move forward from that.

Yep, the rest of the world finally caught up with 'merica.
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Old 06-13-2008, 05:16 PM   #166 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
Shouldn't it be ALLEGED "terrorist combatant" SUSPECTS....or have you forgotten innocent until proven guilty.
This is not about domestic crime. We are at war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by host
ace....we were told that the executive needed the authority to determine, without evidentiary hearings, who the "bad people" are, because we woiuld be in too much danger if we allowed the designated bad people, the same rights every citizen and non-citizen in any US jurisdiction, are afforded.

Did you read the opinions? Did you look at the law in question? There are controls in place. Controls requested by the courts and legislation passed by Congress with some bi-lateral support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
the "war on terror" is only a war in a metaphorical sense, dont you think?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
the rationale for scalia's dissent is basically the same as that behind the bush people's "war on terror"--a state of exception which "requires" the suspension of usual processes and legalities in favor of a dictatorial-style executive. a state of exception need not be a war--it can be and usually is a sense of political crisis--but crisis can be generated from any number of sectors for any number of ends.
We are in a war where Congress authorized the use of military force and gave the President broad authority to use it. Bi-lateral support I might add. Bush's war, is our war.
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Last edited by aceventura3; 06-13-2008 at 05:22 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 06-13-2008, 06:38 PM   #167 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3
This is not about domestic crime. We are at war.
The Constitution applies to more than domestic crime and more than just US citizens. The right of habeas corpus is a basic Constitutional right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3
We are in a war where Congress authorized the use of military force and gave the President broad authority to use it. Bi-lateral support I might add.
Unlike you, Bush has never attempted to apply the "Use of Force" resolution to the treatment of detainees/non-combatants. He just tried to unilaterally interpret the Constitution and US obligations under the Geneva Conventions (with a rationale provided by Alberto Gonzales)..and has been overruled by the the SCOTUS repeatedly.

After the SCOTUS ruled in 2004 (Rasul v. Bush) that detainees have the right to challenge the legality of their detention in US courts (applications for habeas corpus), he got the Republican Congress to enact the Detainee Treatment Act in 2005, which officially stripped the federal courts of any authority to hear detainee cases.

The SCOTUS overturned that law in 2006 (Humdi v Rumsfeld) when it ruled that military commissions at Guantanamo Bay violated the laws of war and international conventions.

...which resulted in another attempt to circumvent the Constitution and international conventions with the Military Commissions Act, that in effect was overturned by the most recent decision (Boumediene v. Bush). The court ruled that detainees have rights under the Constitution to challenge their detention in civilian courts.
"The laws and Constitution are designed to survive, and remain in force, in extraordinary times. Liberty and security can be reconciled; and in our system, they are reconciled within the framework of law. The Framers decided that habeas corpus, a right of first importance, must be a part of that framework, part of that law." - Justice Anthony Kennedy in the majority opinon
Quote:
Bush's war is our war.
Bush's war may be your war...it sure as hell isnt mine. The sooner we restore the rule of law, the better we will be as a nation.
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - attributed to Benjamin Franklin

"The practice of arbitrary imprisonments, in all ages, is the favorite and most formidable instruments of tyranny" - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 84
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Last edited by dc_dux; 06-14-2008 at 06:06 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 06-14-2008, 05:22 AM   #168 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LoganSnake
You advocate turning the other cheek. A pacifist. I say you retaliate and you retaliate ten times harder than they hit. It's not stooping down. I don't believe that there is such thing as benevolence in war. If your enemies are ruthless, you need to be even more ruthless than they are.

P.S. This particular war I don't agree with, but the methodology should be applied.
some people seem to never learn the lessons from WW2, korea, and vietnam. Reprisals against civilian populations NEVER attain your objective, they only serve to incite a larger body of enemies.
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Old 06-14-2008, 06:18 AM   #169 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
some people seem to never learn the lessons from WW2, korea, and vietnam. Reprisals against civilian populations NEVER attain your objective, they only serve to incite a larger body of enemies.
Thank you for this. This has been sitting badly with me since I read it, and I wasn't yet sure how I wanted to respond. This is a good start.

I cannot believe the suggestion that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were America's greatest wartime atrocities--and should not have happened--is so open for debate. They were monstrous acts. Deplorable. America's greatest failure of humanity. It's that simple.

To suggest wanton cruelty in retaliation to an enemy, especially where civilians are concerted, and simply in the name of war, overlooks a basic humanism that, when lost, forever changes the face of a nation. A no-holds-barred approach to war, especially in this day and age of communication and community has no place in the world. That America must do this suggests its power is waning. The failures of the American industrial complex isn't the worst of the nation's problems, yet it is the most indicative sign of an overall misguidance and loss of ingenuity.
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Old 06-14-2008, 07:37 PM   #170 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by pig
yeah roach,

but that presupposes, even if its devil's advocate style for the sake of argument, that the primary function of current torture techniques is to gain information. i have to assume that the military shrinks are as competent as any, on average; therefore i have to deduce that they are not, in fact, after information. i can only surmise that they seek to humiliate and instill fear into our adversaries. perhaps develop scapegoats for the public eye whilst our military covertly operates on other premises and angles. i can not believe that the people who are actually working the various policies being enacted actually think this bullshit works. i don't like it, but i do think that its as much "hey - we're as badass and coldhearted as you fuckers are. our citizens may live nice little kotex padded lives, but our guardians are real fuckers." as anything else.

even that i could deal with on a certain level, as it would open the door for useful discussion and debate that is based in reality. the fantasy debates are just tedious.
When dealing with an enemy that cuts peoples heads off and broadcasts it as a propaganda tool, typically you have to represent yourself as "real fuckers".

Of course now we get to capture them and allow them to try and convince institutions that wouldn't exist, if they had their wishes, that they were just at the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm sure a few will succeed too.
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Old 06-16-2008, 07:27 AM   #171 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dc_dux
The Constitution applies to more than domestic crime and more than just US citizens. The right of habeas corpus is a basic Constitutional right.
If habeas corpus was applied to military detainees during all of our wars every war time President in our history was in violation of the Constitution. Even the Supreme Court's ruling does not take this issue as far as your comment suggests.


Quote:
Unlike you, Bush has never attempted to apply the "Use of Force" resolution to the treatment of detainees/non-combatants. He just tried to unilaterally interpret the Constitution and US obligations under the Geneva Conventions (with a rationale provided by Alberto Gonzales)..and has been overruled by the the SCOTUS repeatedly.
Get your facts straight. Unilateral? If he had the help of Congress how is that unilateral? What was overturned was legislation, the legislation you reference below.

Quote:
After the SCOTUS ruled in 2004 (Rasul v. Bush) that detainees have the right to challenge the legality of their detention in US courts (applications for habeas corpus), he got the Republican Congress to enact the Detainee Treatment Act in 2005, which officially stripped the federal courts of any authority to hear detainee cases.

The SCOTUS overturned that law in 2006 (Humdi v Rumsfeld) when it ruled that military commissions at Guantanamo Bay violated the laws of war and international conventions.

...which resulted in another attempt to circumvent the Constitution and international conventions with the Military Commissions Act, that in effect was overturned by the most recent decision (Boumediene v. Bush). The court ruled that detainees have rights under the Constitution to challenge their detention in civilian courts.
"The laws and Constitution are designed to survive, and remain in force, in extraordinary times. Liberty and security can be reconciled; and in our system, they are reconciled within the framework of law. The Framers decided that habeas corpus, a right of first importance, must be a part of that framework, part of that law." - Justice Anthony Kennedy in the majority opinon
With support of some Democrats our government tried to bring clarity to this issue. You call it an attempt to circumvent the Constitution. In my eyes I see the process working as it should, even though I disagree with the latest ruling. It seems your assumption is that the people working on this had or have some motives that are not supported by any facts.


Quote:
Bush's war may be your war...it sure as hell isnt mine.
I assumed you are a US citizen. US citizens are paying a high cost for this war. Our elected political leaders authorized and are executing this war. Our sons and daughters are at risk in this war. Our tax dollars fund the war.

Quote:
The sooner we restore the rule of law, the better we will be as a nation.
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - attributed to Benjamin Franklin

"The practice of arbitrary imprisonments, in all ages, is the favorite and most formidable instruments of tyranny" - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 84
I am going to assume I don't understand this comment rather than relying on my initial reaction to it. My initial reaction is that you think all will be o.k. if those Guantánamo detainees are heard in Federal Court. I think we are an honorable nation and that we are treating these detainees in a humane fashion in accordance with our laws
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Old 06-16-2008, 07:58 AM   #172 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3
If habeas corpus was applied to military detainees during all of our wars every war time President in our history was in violation of the Constitution. Even the Supreme Court's ruling does not take this issue as far as your comment suggests.
The Constitution proivide for two exceptions to the rights of habeaus:
Article 1, section 9
The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.
The detainees held at Gitmo are part of neither a rebellion nor an invasion.

In fact, a large number of the detainees were guilty of nothing but being caught up in a sweep or turned in by a neighbor for cash....and after as many as 4+ years in Gitmo w/o being charge, w/o access to legal counsel, family or anyone, had no rights at all.
An eight-month McClatchy investigation in 11 countries on three continents has found that.... according to several officials, perhaps hundreds — whom the U.S. has wrongfully imprisoned in Afghanistan, Cuba and elsewhere on the basis of flimsy or fabricated evidence, old personal scores or bounty payments.

See: America's prison for terrorists often held the wrong men

Quote:
Get your facts straight. Unilateral? If he had the help of Congress how is that unilateral? What was overturned was legislation, the legislation you reference below.
Yes, unilatteral.

It was Bush/Gonzales who unilatterly determined a new definition of persons who are not guaranteed habeaus under Article I, Sect 9 or the Geneva Conventions. (see below #174- Gonzales explanation at Judiciary Commttee hearing)
The courts have rejected that on three separate occasions now.

Quote:
I assumed you are a US citizen. US citizens are paying a high cost for this war. Our elected political leaders authorized and are executing this war. Our sons and daughters are at risk in this war. Our tax dollars fund the war.
As I US citizen, I do not support illegal acts of goverment in the name of some ill-defined "war against terrorism"...particularly when it tramples on the Constituion -- resorts to the use of torture, the denial of habeaus corpus, and, I would add, wiretappng American citizens w/o a warrant....all examples of infringing on basic rights in the name of "national security."
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Old 06-16-2008, 08:04 AM   #173 (permalink)
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ace, I've seen you question the usage of the word "unilateral" several times now.

Here's a hint: when new law is signed into effect in a signing statement that Congress never saw, that's unilateral. When new policies and rules are implemented top-down straight out of the Commander In Chief's office, that's unilateral.

I know you'd like to have Congress (sorry: "the Democratic Congress"--never mind that the majority is razor-slim) be complicit in this, but the fact is, they're not. They're no angels, but in this, the Executive Branch acted utterly alone.

What REALLY scares me is, this ruling was 5 to 4. One more right-winger on the SCOTUS, and this shit would be constitutional.
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Old 06-16-2008, 08:19 AM   #174 (permalink)
 
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You can watch Gonzales attempt to explain that habeaus is not a Constitutional right.

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Old 06-16-2008, 11:26 AM   #175 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ratbastid
ace, I've seen you question the usage of the word "unilateral" several times now.

Here's a hint: when new law is signed into effect in a signing statement that Congress never saw, that's unilateral. When new policies and rules are implemented top-down straight out of the Commander In Chief's office, that's unilateral.

I know you'd like to have Congress (sorry: "the Democratic Congress"--never mind that the majority is razor-slim) be complicit in this, but the fact is, they're not. They're no angels, but in this, the Executive Branch acted utterly alone.

What REALLY scares me is, this ruling was 5 to 4. One more right-winger on the SCOTUS, and this shit would be constitutional.
At what point do you give allowance for process? A) Assuming a President did do something "unilaterally" and or system of checks and balances either supports or rejects that "unilateral" action, is it still "unilateral"? In my opinion no. I would say no, even in a circumstance where the other branches of government failed to take any action. We do not have royalty or a dictatorship. Yes, I have a problem with the concept of "unilateral" action in our form of government. It is temporary at best. In this case all branches of our federal government was a part of the process.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:07 PM   #176 (permalink)
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We have a presidency that has acted like royalty or a dictatorship, is my point. The SCOTUS, by an alarmingly slim margin of 5 to 4, brought them somewhat to heel, but the damage has WAY been done.

How DO you feel about presidential signing statements that significantly amend or create exceptions to newly-signed law, ace? Or about policies about prisoner treatment (as just one example) that fly in the face of morality, convention and treaty, which got created in the Oval Office without any oversight from anybody? Doesn't that seem a bit unilateral? Do you have a problem with those things? I certainly do, but I'd love to hear your reasoning if you don't.

The question of whether you think those things actually happened is a DIFFERENT question. I'm less interested in your answer to that other question, but I suppose if you have to give your answer to it, feel free. Please do NOT use that second question as a means to not have to answer the first one. Not that you'd ever be that intellectually dishonest--I'm just pointing out one mistake you might make if you weren't paying attention.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:27 PM   #177 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ratbastid
We have a presidency that has acted like royalty or a dictatorship, is my point. The SCOTUS, by an alarmingly slim margin of 5 to 4, brought them somewhat to heel, but the damage has WAY been done.
My point is - so what if we have a President who acts like royalty or a dictator. Congress and the Judicial Branch have an obligation to chop it off at the knees. To the degree a President gets away with "unilateralism" is to the degree our other branches are not doing their jobs. This is not a case where other branches failed to be involved.

Quote:
How DO you feel about presidential signing statements that significantly amend or create exceptions to newly-signed law, ace? Or about policies about prisoner treatment (as just one example) that fly in the face of morality, convention and treaty, which got created in the Oval Office without any oversight from anybody? Doesn't that seem a bit unilateral? Do you have a problem with those things? I certainly do, but I'd love to hear your reasoning if you don't.
See above comment.

Quote:
The question of whether you think those things actually happened is a DIFFERENT question. I'm less interested in your answer to that other question, but I suppose if you have to give your answer to it, feel free. Please do NOT use that second question as a means to not have to answer the first one. Not that you'd ever be that intellectually dishonest--I'm just pointing out one mistake you might make if you weren't paying attention.
o.k.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:50 PM   #178 (permalink)
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Right, well, you dodged the question after all.

There's NO STRUCTURE for reviewing presidential signing statements. They were mere comments before Bush started changing law in them. They're utterly extraconstitutional. And technically, they carry no legal weight, except that Bush authorized military action based on them. So now you've got the US military following laws that aren't laws except the boss says they are, and there's no procedure for any other branch of government to balance it. THAT'S what we mean by unilateral.

Now: I know in aceland, that never happened. My question for you is, IF IT DID, you would you have a problem with that?

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Old 06-16-2008, 02:15 PM   #179 (permalink)
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So, the USA has passed a law saying "we feel it is right that the US President can kidnap and torture citizens of every other nation on the entire planet at a whim. This power should not be subject to any kind of judicial review, reasonable process, or congressional review. To every citizen of every other nation of the entire world: fuck you."

I just wanted to see if I understood the meaning of this law. Did I miss anything important, or otherwise misunderstand?
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:59 PM   #180 (permalink)
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You forgot to say thank you.
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Old 06-16-2008, 09:06 PM   #181 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Yakk
So, the USA has passed a law saying "we feel it is right that the US President can kidnap and torture citizens of every other nation on the entire planet at a whim. This power should not be subject to any kind of judicial review, reasonable process, or congressional review. To every citizen of every other nation of the entire world: fuck you."

I just wanted to see if I understood the meaning of this law. Did I miss anything important, or otherwise misunderstand?
I still don't get how the Guantanmo Bay detentions stand as arbitrary. When you are arrested as an illegal combatant, which would provide for much gray area for "criminal status", you don't have to necessarily be afforded the right to a public trial.

Now perhaps someone can help me make sure I am up to speed on this, but the latest supreme court ruling effectively upholds the detentions still, only it allows the detainee's to challenge their status, correct?

Still the point of contention seems to be that people don't think the US military should be allowed to "arrest" people as illegal combatants. The catch with that issue is that there is no codified means of determining what makes one's status illegal, rather it is determined by a treaty one century old and what isn't codified in treaties such as geneva.

Again, if the courts state the men are allowed to challenge their status, would that not mean that Habeas stands? If that is the case, which the SC's decision seems to point to, I would take that as a big example that the detentions at Guantanamo Bay are completely legal and not arbitrary... so long as they allow the challenges to status.

I thought this might help, read the bold...

Quote:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
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Old 06-16-2008, 09:13 PM   #182 (permalink)
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"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed..."
There's no asterisk that says "unless you're an 'enemy combatant'" in there. The person is only described as "the accused". And if you're not accused, then you're free to go.
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Old 06-16-2008, 09:20 PM   #183 (permalink)
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Do military personnel get tried by a civilian court? Besides I sure these men are not being tried in criminal proceedings in the same sense I were if I got a DUI or murdered somebody. They were picked up by the military, thusly they are regulated to tribunals. Do I need to dust off Ex Parte Quirin?
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Old 06-17-2008, 04:54 AM   #184 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Do military personnel get tried by a civilian court? Besides I sure these men are not being tried in criminal proceedings in the same sense I were if I got a DUI or murdered somebody. They were picked up by the military, thusly they are regulated to tribunals. Do I need to dust off Ex Parte Quirin?
Persons held at Gitmo are not military personnel....they are "enemy" non-combatants..and Bush has attempted to define that status in the most restrictive terms possible with regard to any rights under US law or treaty obligations.

My understanding of how this has played out:

Bush first attempted to make the case that they had no rights under the Constitution because they were not being held on US soil and the US had no sovereignty over Gitmo (Cuba still maintains sovereignty).

The USSC said NO....the US has jurisdiction over Gitmo (as a result of treaty w/Cuba) so non-combatants have rights.

As a result of that decision, Bush brought the Republican Congress into the act.

Then came the "military tribunals or commissions" as defined in the Detainee Treatment Act.....it did not provide the detainees with direct access to the federal courts, but only with access to a fair and impartial hearing to a tribunal constitutionally authorized by Congress and proceeding with certain due process guarantees comparable to the UCMJ or the terms of the Geneva Conventions.

The USSC said NO again....and struck it down because it failed to meet that test of providing rights comparable to the UCMJ and the Geneva Conventions.

So Bush and hs friends in Congress tried again with the Military Commissions Act.

The USSC said NO for a third time and ruled that detainees have rights under the Constitution to challenge their detention in civilian courts...including the right to habeas corpus.

And I would point readers again to the fact that a large number of the detainees (hundreds?) were not terrorists or enemy non-combatants or even guilty of anything at all but being caught up in a sweep or turned in by a neighbor for cash....and after as many as 4+ years in Gitmo w/o being charge, w/o access to legal counsel, family or anyone, had no virtually rights at all.
An eight-month McClatchy investigation in 11 countries on three continents has found that.... according to several officials, perhaps hundreds — whom the U.S. has wrongfully imprisoned in Afghanistan, Cuba and elsewhere on the basis of flimsy or fabricated evidence, old personal scores or bounty payments.

See: America's prison for terrorists often held the wrong men
This is a very good and straight forward graphic on Detainees and the Rule of Law (pdf)


added...on the issue of torture:

The Senate Armed Services Committee is beginning hearings today to review the origins of Bush's policies regarding torture.

ooops...I should say "enhanced interrogation techniques"...we all know that the US doesnt torture...because Bush/Cheney/Rice/Mukasey say we dont and since Bush has unilaterally defined "enhanced interrogation techniques" ....we should take their word for it?

The Committee is still demanding the appearance of John Woo, the DoJ official who wrote the infamous "justification for torture" memo that has guided the Bush policy....torture is defined as resulting in death, organ failure or serious impairment of body functions"...anything else is acceptable.
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Old 06-17-2008, 06:16 AM   #185 (permalink)
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Location: Ontario, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
I still don't get how the Guantanmo Bay detentions stand as arbitrary. When you are arrested as an illegal combatant, which would provide for much gray area for "criminal status", you don't have to necessarily be afforded the right to a public trial.
First, I see no functioning reasonable review process that demonstrates that the prisoners at Guantanmo Bay are anything that the Administration says that they are at all. As far as I can tell, they are arbitrary people who the Administration says are bad, who they feel free to torture, imprision, and hold for an arbitrary period of time, with (up until this point) only kangeroo court juristiction (I'm sorry Mr Judge, but you aren't rolling over -- you are fired and replaced with someone else...)

Quote:
Now perhaps someone can help me make sure I am up to speed on this, but the latest supreme court ruling effectively upholds the detentions still, only it allows the detainee's to challenge their status, correct?
It states, narrowly, that the current review system is insufficient. It does not state what review system would be sufficient, it just states that the current review system is not. And without sufficient review, it states that those held must be able to require the government demonstrate a god damn justification for why they are being held in prison for an indefinite period.

You do know that this is what the court cases are about? Not about torture -- just "you haven't even STATED and PROVEN why these people are being held". The prisoners are completely arbitrarily. Some functionary said "keep this person in jail", and based off nothing but that they are in jail for an indefinite period.

Quote:
Still the point of contention seems to be that people don't think the US military should be allowed to "arrest" people as illegal combatants. The catch with that issue is that there is no codified means of determining what makes one's status illegal, rather it is determined by a treaty one century old and what isn't codified in treaties such as geneva.
As it stands, the US holds that the President can, with no real review, state that anyone* the president chooses falls outside the scope of all rights and treaty obligations, and treat them however the President wants.

* This being limited to non-US citizens is possibly true. Hence the "rest of the world: fuck you".

Also note that the US holds that it has the right to invade other countries, kidnap people there, and do with them as they please. This isn't "other countries that are terrorist havens" -- it fucking happened in Italy, while one branch of the US government was tracking down someone with the help of the Italian government, another jumped in and kidnapped (while speaking openly over Company cell phones, idiots) someone.

Quote:
Again, if the courts state the men are allowed to challenge their status, would that not mean that Habeas stands? If that is the case, which the SC's decision seems to point to, I would take that as a big example that the detentions at Guantanamo Bay are completely legal and not arbitrary... so long as they allow the challenges to status.
There has been no actual challenge to their status allowed in open court. Many of the people there have been detained for 5+ years, with no access to real lawyers, no access to courts, arbitrary abuse by people who consider them to have absolutely no rights under any treaty or law...

Or am I in error?

Has the US not bagged the heads of "bad people", made them form human periods, attached electrodes to the penis and balls of prisoners, and fucking photographed them and bragged about it? Has the US Senate not passed a bill saying "so long as you don't torture Americans, go ahead and make your own decisions about how far you can go Mr President. Do whatever you want. We place no limits on what you do to non-Americans"? Has the US Congress and Senate not sat idly by as the US executive branch has claimed the right to imprison without trial, without review, without access to law, any foreign individual that the US executive branch feels like imprisoning, for as long as the US executive branch feels like?

So I say again: have I misread the "FUCK YOU" that the US government, the agent of the people, is sending the entire fucking world?

I need to know. Elections are coming up, and there are various parties. Some want to continue supporting missions that help the US government, and not say "fuck you" to the US government. Others want to withdraw all help to the US government's military adventures abroad.

You may or may not care -- but right now, Canadian troops are engaged in the hottest part of Afghanistan, with fatality rates that exceed any other military organization engaged in US-allied military adventures. Is the US saying "fuck you" to me? I have an election to prepare for.
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Old 06-17-2008, 07:20 AM   #186 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
I still don't get how the Guantanmo Bay detentions stand as arbitrary. When you are arrested as an illegal combatant, which would provide for much gray area for "criminal status", you don't have to necessarily be afforded the right to a public trial.

Now perhaps someone can help me make sure I am up to speed on this, but the latest supreme court ruling effectively upholds the detentions still, only it allows the detainee's to challenge their status, correct?

Still the point of contention seems to be that people don't think the US military should be allowed to "arrest" people as illegal combatants. The catch with that issue is that there is no codified means of determining what makes one's status illegal, rather it is determined by a treaty one century old and what isn't codified in treaties such as geneva.

Again, if the courts state the men are allowed to challenge their status, would that not mean that Habeas stands? If that is the case, which the SC's decision seems to point to, I would take that as a big example that the detentions at Guantanamo Bay are completely legal and not arbitrary... so long as they allow the challenges to status.

I thought this might help, read the bold...
Mojo_PeiPei, are you not "getting this", because you just don't want to?

Is this the condition, at the time of arrest....:
Quote:
....when in actual service in time of War or public danger..
....simply because Bush or Cheney say that it is? I am sorry, Mojo, but these "leaders", threw away their own credibility....the capacity of American people who read the documentation in my post....to ever trust them at their word....


If the officials and their policies were above board, why the misleading statements from them, then the threats against their critics, then McClatcheys new "truth to power" reporting, just this week.....Mojo...they "arrest" the wrong effing people, and without swift hearings before an impartial judge in a civilian court, where the evidence can be examined, and the charges against the arrestee heard....and the arrestee given a chance to prevent his version, and produce any evidence he might have in his own defense....you get this embarassing, tragic, counter-productive, anti international law....EFFECTS...we show you, over and over, and over....and you still must be taking Bush/Cheney at their word, or you wouldn't have posted what you did......

From an old post, circa Dec., 2006:
Quote:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ld#post2204011

Quote:
Originally Posted by politicophile
A sensible move on the part of the Bush administration, for both of the reasons you have cited above. I find the administration's argument that poems are formatted in a way that makes concealment of hidden messages easier to be relatively pursuasive. After all, poetry is well-known for conveying multiple meanings within the same piece of text.

As for the dehumanizing aspect, I fear you are also correct. The administration has done a very effective job of making people forget about Gitmo's existence and a collection of poetry like this one would signficantly impair this effort. It is a sad state of affairs that the administration believes its terror prisoner facilities can continue to be operated only if the public does not think enough about them to create a disturbance.
I am sorry, politicophile....I can't let your statements and the beliefs that they infer (to me....anyway...) that you harbor, about who the detainees at Guantanamo are, and why they are there....go unchallenged.

Here are quotes from Bush and Cheney...they aren't "filtered" by the "liberal" media, they are from the white house website:
Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0060906-3.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
September 6, 2006

President Discusses Creation of Military Commissions to Try Suspected Terrorists
The East Room

THE PRESIDENT:......Most of the enemy combatants we capture are held in Afghanistan or in Iraq, where they're questioned by our military personnel. Many are released after questioning, or turned over to local authorities -- if we determine that they do not pose a continuing threat and no longer have significant intelligence value. Others remain in American custody near the battlefield, to ensure that they don't return to the fight.

In some cases, we determine that individuals we have captured pose a significant threat, or may have intelligence that we and our allies need to have to prevent new attacks. Many are al Qaeda operatives or Taliban fighters trying to conceal their identities, and they withhold information that could save American lives. In these cases, it has been necessary to move these individuals to an environment where they can be held secretly [sic], questioned by experts, and -- when appropriate -- prosecuted for terrorist acts.

President George W. Bush addresses invited guests, members of the media and White House staff Wednesday. Sept. 6, 2006 in the East Room of the White House, as he discusses the administration's draft legislation to create a strong and effective military commission to try suspected terrorists. The bill being sent to Congress said President Bush, "reflects the reality that we are a nation at war, and that it is essential for us to use all reliable evidence to bring these people to justice." White House photo by Kimberlee Hewitt Some of these individuals are taken to the United States Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. It's important for Americans and others across the world to understand the kind of people held at Guantanamo. These aren't common criminals, or bystanders accidentally swept up on the battlefield -- we have in place a rigorous process to ensure those held at Guantanamo Bay belong at Guantanamo. Those held at Guantanamo include suspected bomb makers, terrorist trainers, recruiters and facilitators, and potential suicide bombers. They are in our custody so they cannot murder our people. One detainee held at Guantanamo told a questioner questioning him -- he said this: "I'll never forget your face. I will kill you, your brothers, your mother, and sisters."

In addition to the terrorists held at Guantanamo, a small number of suspected terrorist leaders and operatives captured during the war have been held and questioned outside the United States, in a separate program operated by the Central Intelligence Agency.....
Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0060629-3.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
June 29, 2006

President Bush and Japanese Prime Minister Koizumi Participate in a Joint Press Availability

.....Q Thank you, Mr. President. You've said that you wanted to close the prison at Guantanamo Bay, but you were waiting for the Supreme Court decision that came out today. Do you intend now to close the Guantanamo Bay quickly? And how do you deal with the suspects that you've said were too dangerous to be released or sent home?

PRESIDENT BUSH: Thank you for the question on a court ruling that literally came out in the midst of my meeting with the Prime Minister -- and so I haven't had a chance to fully review the findings of the Supreme Court. I, one, assure you that we take them very seriously. Two, that to the extent that there is latitude to work with the Congress to determine whether or not the military tribunals will be an avenue in which to give people their day in court, we will do so.

The American people need to know that this ruling, as I understand it, won't cause killers to be put out on the street. In other words, there's not a -- it was a drive-by briefing on the way here, I was told that this was not going to be the case. At any rate, we will seriously look at the findings, obviously. And one thing I'm not going to do, though, is I'm not going to jeopardize the safety of the American people. People have got to understand that. I understand we're in a war on terror; that these people were picked up off of a battlefield; and I will protect the people and, at the same time, conform with the findings of the Supreme Court. .....
Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0050623-8.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Vice President
June 23, 2005

Interview of the Vice President by Wolf Blitzer, CNN

.....Q A few other quick questions before we end this interview. Should Gitmo -- Guantanamo Bay's detention center be shut down, the detainees moved elsewhere?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: No.

Q Because?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Because it's a vital facility. The people that are there are people we picked up on the battlefield primarily in Afghanistan. They're terrorists. They're bomb-makers. They're facilitators of terror. They're members of al Qaeda and the Taliban. We've screened everybody we had. We had some 800 people down there. We've screened them all, and we've let go those that we've deemed not to be a continuing threat. But the 520 some that are there now are serious, deadly threats to the United States. For the most part, if you let them out, they'll go back to trying to kill Americans.

Q Nobody says let them out, but move them to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas or someplace like that.

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Why would you do that? ......
Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...050620-19.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
June 20, 2005

President Hosts United States - European Union Summit
The East Room

..... Q Mr. President, many in Europe are worrying that with the fight against terrorism the commitment of the United States to human rights is not as big as it used to be -- that is not only to do with Guantanamo, but also with the secret prisons where the CIA holds terror suspects. My question is, what will happen to these people who are held in these secret prisons by the CIA? Will they ever see a judge? Or is your thinking that with some terror suspects, the rule of law should not apply or does not have to have applied.

PRESIDENT BUSH: First of all, I appreciate that question, and I understand we -- those of us who espouse freedom have an obligation, and those who espouse human rights have an obligation to live that to those -- live up to those words. And I believe we are, in Guantanamo. I mean, after all, there's 24 hour inspections by the International Red Cross. You're welcome to go down yourself -- maybe you have -- and taking a look at the conditions. I urge members of our press corps to go down to Guantanamo and see how they're treated and to see -- and to see -- and to look at the facts. That's all I ask people to do. There have been, I think, about 800 or so that have been detained there. These are people picked up off the battlefield in Afghanistan. They weren't wearing uniforms, they weren't state sponsored, but they were there to kill.

And so the fundamental question facing our government was, what do you do with these people? And so we said that they don't apply under the Geneva Convention, but they'll be treated in accord with the Geneva Convention.

And so I would urge you to go down and take a look at Guantanamo. About 200 or so have been released back to their countries. There needs to be a way forward on the other 500 that are there. We're now waiting for a federal court to decide whether or not they can be tried in a military court, where they'll have rights, of course, or in the civilian courts. We're just waiting for our judicial process to move -- to move the process along.

Make no mistake, however, that many of those folks being detained -- in humane conditions, I might add -- are dangerous people. Some have been released to their previous countries, and they got out and they went on to the battlefield again.......
....and here is the documentation that supports the idea that both Bush and Cheney intentionally misled us, and the world, to the point of telling lies, in their descriptions of who the majority of the Guantanamo detainees are, and the circumstances of their capture, and the offense that they have committed against the US and it's allies:
Quote:
http://gtmodocuments.blogspot.com/20...as-lawyer.html
Wednesday, December 6, 2006
My Worst Moment As a Lawyer

By P. Sabin Willett

December 5, 2006
Newburyport, MA

My worst moment as a lawyer took place on August 30, 2006, at the stroke of noon, just as I was leaving Echo One, an interrogation cell at Guantanamo Bay.....

....So let’s have no more of hypotheticals this evening. Let’s stick to facts. Besides, if we don’t get to the facts soon, I’ll never come round to my worst moment as a lawyer. And the main fact we’d like is this. After five years, who are we holding down there at Guantanamo Bay, anyway?

The way we used to answer that question in this country was in a habeas corpus hearing. The prisoner would demand the legal basis for his imprisonment. The government would have its say. And a judge would decide. But this Fall your Congress and your President abolished that.. So how do we answer the question?

One way is rhetorically.

[Slide: Guantanamo Rhetorically: Who are the Prisoners?]

slide
“The people that are there are people we picked up on the battlefield, primarily in Afghanistan. They’re terrorists. They’re bomb makers. They’re facilitators of terror. They’re members of Al Qaeda and the Taliban --
Vice President Cheney

slide
Among the most dangerous, best trained, vicious killers on the face of the earth
Donald Rumsfeld (Jan. 27, 2002)

slide
They would “gnaw through hydraulic lines of transport planes.”[1]
Gen. Richard Myers (Jan. 11, 2002),

“Captured on the battlefield seeking to harm U.S. soldiers,”
Sen. John Cornyn.

Guantanamo By the Numbers
So the rhetoric is powerful and alarming. What about the numbers?

Number of Prisoners Held at Guantanamo Bay Cuba
Approx. 450

Years of Captivity for Most Prisoners
4 ½

Number of prisoners charged with crimes
10

Number of prisoners charged with 9/11-Related Crimes
0

Number of prisoners convicted of any crime
0

Percentage of alleged battlefield Captures
5*
*source: summary of military allegations in 517 CSRT transcripts (Seton Hall Law School, February, 2006)

Percentage of prisoners alleged to have engaged in violence
45*
*source: summary of military allegations in 517 CSRT transcripts (Seton Hall Law School, February, 2006)


Well, hold on, wait a minute. Senior officials said these people were the worst of the worst, and you’re saying only 5% were taken on the battlefield? If only 5% were taken on the battlefield, where did the rest come from?
click here to read the rest of this article   click to show 
Quote:
http://nationaljournal.com/about/njw...06/0203nj2.htm

COVER STORY
Who Is at Guantanamo Bay
·
Empty Evidence

By Corine Hegland, National Journal
© National Journal Group Inc.
Friday, Feb. 3, 2006

As a result of the habeas corpus petitions filed by attorneys representing Guantanamo detainees, the Defense Department has had to file court documents on 132 of the enemy combatants, or just under a quarter of the prison's population. National Journal undertook a detailed review of the unclassified files to develop profiles of the 132 men. NJ separately reviewed transcripts for 314 prisoners who pleaded their cases before Combatant Status Review Tribunals at Guantanamo. Taken together, the information provides a picture of who, exactly, has been taken prisoner in the war on terror and is being held in an anomalous U.S. military prison on an island belonging to one of America's bitterest enemies.

Shortly after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, President Bush issued a military order that authorized the Defense Department to detain noncitizens suspected of having ties with Al Qaeda or other terrorists. As a result, hundreds of so-called "enemy combatants" were rounded up and taken to prisons in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Since early 2002, lawyers working on a volunteer basis have filed papers with U.S. courts asking the government to explain why it is holding individual prisoners. These habeas corpus petitions have forced disclosures by the Defense Department that shed light on some of the details surrounding the estimated 500 prisoners currently in U.S. captivity.

The Defense Department declined a request to release comparable statistics for all of the detainees held at Guantanamo Bay.

The first thing that jumps out of the statistics is that a majority of the detainees in both groups are not Afghans -- nor were they picked up in Afghanistan as U.S. troops fought the Taliban and Al Qaeda, nor were they picked up by American troops at all. Most are from Arab countries, and most were arrested in Pakistan by Pakistani authorities.
to read the rest of this article   click to show 


The 314 transcripts released to the Associated Press under a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit give similar results. The 314 men described there included 97 Afghans who were arrested in Afghanistan. But they also included 211 foreigners, 152 of whom -- or more than 70 percent -- were arrested outside of Afghanistan. And 145 of those men were captured in Pakistan.
Quote:
http://law.shu.edu/news/guantanamo_r...al_2_08_06.pdf
REPORT ON GUANTANAMO DETAINEES
A Profile of 517 Detainees through Analysis of Department of Defense Data
By
Mark Denbeaux
Professor, Seton Hall University School of Law and
Counsel to two Guantanamo detainees
Joshua Denbeaux, Esq.
Denbeaux & Denbeaux
David Gratz, John Gregorek, Matthew Darby, Shana Edwards,
Shane Hartman, Daniel Mann and Helen Skinner
Students, Seton Hall University School of Law

Page 2.

THE GUANTANAMO DETAINEES: THE GOVERNMENT’S STORY
Professor Mark Denbeaux* and Joshua Denbeaux*
An interim report
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

The media and public fascination with who is detained at Guantanamo and why has been
fueled in large measure by the refusal of the Government, on the grounds of national security, to
provide much information about the individuals and the charges against them. The information
available to date has been anecdotal and erratic, drawn largely from interviews with the few
detainees who have been released or from statements or court filings by their attorneys in the
pending habeas corpus proceedings that the Government has not declared “classified.”
This Report is the first effort to provide a more detailed picture of who the Guantanamo
detainees are, how they ended up there, and the purported bases for their enemy combatant
designation. The data in this Report is based entirely upon the United States Government’s own
documents.1 This Report provides a window into the Government’s success detaining only those
that the President has called “the worst of the worst.”
Among the data revealed by this Report:
1. Fifty-five percent (55%) of the detainees are not determined to have committed any
hostile acts against the United States or its coalition allies.

2. Only 8% of the detainees were characterized as al Qaeda fighters. Of the remaining
detainees, 40% have no definitive connection with al Qaeda at all and 18% are have no definitive
affiliation with either al Qaeda or the Taliban.
3. The Government has detained numerous persons based on mere affiliations with a
large number of groups that in fact, are not on the Department of Homeland Security terrorist
watchlist. Moreover, the nexus between such a detainee and such organizations varies considerably.
Eight percent are detained because they are deemed “fighters for;” 30% considered “members of;” a
large majority – 60% -- are detained merely because they are “associated with” a group or groups the
Government asserts are terrorist organizations. For 2% of the prisoners their nexus to any terrorist
group is unidentified.
4. Only 5% of the detainees were captured by United States forces. 86% of the
detainees were arrested by either Pakistan or the Northern Alliance and turned over to United States
custody.
to read the rest of this article   click to show 
<b>If you re-read politicophile's comments in the context of the contradictions between the statements of Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld. as to the circumstances of the capture of the Guantanmo detainees, and the offenses that these American leaders accused them of, vs. the documentation that the opposite of what the leaders said about the majority of the detainees is probably true, do politicophile's assumptions and opinions speak to the core problem of Guantanamo's existence, which has to do with a lack of truthful justification for detaining most of the prisoners? Do the untruths told by US leaders, but accepted as truth by politicophile, still leave room for him to assess roachboy's OP, if most of the authors of the poetry are unjustly and illegally held....with no hope for the right to appear in front of an impartial judge in a timely manner, to hear the evidence against them, and then be afforded an opportunity to refute that evidence and offer evidence of their own, to the contrary of the US government's allegations against them?</b>
Now, Mojo, a month after the article written by P. Sabin Willett, titled "My Worst Moment As a Lawyer"...it's in the center of the above quote box, this "asshat", at the pentagon, attempted to stop Willett's pro bono work defending Gitmo detainees, with threats:
Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101698_pf.html
Unveiled Threats
A Bush appointee's crude gambit on detainees' legal rights

Friday, January 12, 2007; A18

MOST AMERICANS understand that legal representation for the accused is one of the core principles of the American way. Not, it seems, Cully Stimson, deputy assistant secretary of defense for detainee affairs. In a repellent interview yesterday with Federal News Radio, Mr. Stimson brought up, unprompted, the number of major U.S. law firms that have helped represent detainees at Guantanamo Bay.

"Actually you know I think the news story that you're really going to start seeing in the next couple of weeks is this: As a result of a FOIA [Freedom of Information Act] request through a major news organization, somebody asked, 'Who are the lawyers around this country representing detainees down there,' and you know what, it's shocking," he said.

Mr. Stimson proceeded to reel off the names of these firms, adding, "I think, quite honestly, when corporate CEOs see that those firms are representing the very terrorists who hit their bottom line back in 2001, those CEOs are going to make those law firms choose between representing terrorists or representing reputable firms, and I think that is going to have major play in the next few weeks. And we want to watch that play out."

Asked who was paying the firms, Mr. Stimson hinted of dark doings. "It's not clear, is it?" he said. "Some will maintain that they are doing it out of the goodness of their heart, that they're doing it pro bono, and I suspect they are; others are receiving monies from who knows where, and I'd be curious to have them explain that."

It might be only laughable that Mr. Stimson, during the interview, called Guantanamo "certainly, probably, the most transparent and open location in the world."

But it's offensive -- shocking, to use his word -- that Mr. Stimson, a lawyer, would argue that law firms are doing anything other than upholding the highest ethical traditions of the bar by taking on the most unpopular of defendants. It's shocking that he would seemingly encourage the firms' corporate clients to pressure them to drop this work. And it's shocking -- though perhaps not surprising -- that this is the person the administration has chosen to oversee detainee policy at Guantanamo.
....and just this week, this was reported:
Quote:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/38773.html
* posted on Sunday, June 15, 2008

By Tom Lasseter | McClatchy Newspapers

GARDEZ, Afghanistan — The militants crept up behind Mohammed Akhtiar as he squatted at the spigot to wash his hands before evening prayers at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp.

They shouted "Allahu Akbar" — God is great — as one of them hefted a metal mop squeezer into the air, slammed it into Akhtiar's head and sent thick streams of blood running down his face.

Akhtiar was among the more than 770 terrorism suspects imprisoned at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. They are the men the Bush administration described as "the worst of the worst."

But Akhtiar was no terrorist. American troops had dragged him out of his Afghanistan home in 2003 and held him in Guantanamo for three years in the belief that he was an insurgent involved in rocket attacks on U.S. forces. The Islamic radicals in Guantanamo's Camp Four who hissed "infidel" and spat at Akhtiar, however, knew something his captors didn't: The U.S. government had the wrong guy......
....and this:...he wasn't Taliban until the US sent him to Gitmo:
Quote:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/259/story/38779.html
* Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008
Wrongly jailed detainees found militancy at Guantanamo
More on this Story

Mohammed Naim Farouq is now considered a significant Taliban leader in his region after his release from Guantanamo. | View larger image
By Tom Lasseter | McClatchy Newspapers
So what are you upset about, Mojo...what are you defending? Are these reports just invented to embarrass and sabotage the noble and honest leaders, Bush and Cheney?

Last edited by host; 06-17-2008 at 07:34 AM..
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Old 06-17-2008, 08:41 AM   #187 (permalink)
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Host it's clearly not me who is "not getting it". Your hatred for Bush has completely blinded you to the logical and obvious answer concerning Gitmo.

The Supreme Court has ruled on Gitmo, like in the past they are upholding the detentions so long as the prisoners have a chance to challenge their detentions. That is the whole basis of Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, where the detentions and tribunals were upheld. Not only that but they said, albeit narrowly, that the government, or in this case Boogeyman Bush was authorized by the "Authorization for Use of Military Force".

You catch that Host, the Supreme Court upheld a lower courts opinion that the AUMF from 9-19-2001 gave the President authority!

For the record I'm not upset, I'm merely confounded how people here cannot come to terms with this. Nor am I defending everything the administration has done in regards to Gitmo. But by and large I do not have a problem with the operation, so long as the SC's decision is followed and the men can challenge their status.
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Old 06-17-2008, 08:52 AM   #188 (permalink)
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There's nothing logical about torture, as anyone involved in psychology can verify that torture cannot produce reliable intel. There's nothing logical about holding people without trial, as it means spending money punishing people who are likely innocent (if they were guilty, they'd be able to try them). There's nothing logical about making prisoners do a human pyramid naked. surrounded by
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Old 06-17-2008, 08:55 AM   #189 (permalink)
 
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Mojo:

In Hamdi v Rumsfeld, the Court struck down the provisions of the Detainee Treatment Act's military commissions because they did not provide detainees the rights comparable to UCMJ or Genenva Conventions.

The latest decision, Boumediene v. Bush, went further and struck down the provisions of the Military Commissions Act and affirmed that detainees have the right to challenge their confinement in federal courts through habeas filing.

And yet all of that ignores the fact that many of the detainees (hundreds?) should never have been there in the first place.....they were not "terrorists" or even alleged terrorists, they did not attack US forces in Afghanistan or Iraq.....they got caught up in the sweep and held for 4+ years w/o any cause. I dont understand how anyone can justify that.
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Old 06-17-2008, 08:59 AM   #190 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
Mojo:

In Hamdi v Rumsfeld, the Court struck down the provisions of the Detainee Treatment Act's military commissions because they did not provide detainees the rights comparable to UCMJ or Genenva Conventions.

The latest decision went further and struck down the provisions of the Military Commissions Act and affirmed that detainees have the right to challenge their confinement in federal courts through habeas filing.

And yet all of that ignores that many of the detainees (hundreds?) should never have been there in the first place.....they were not "terrorists", they did not attack US forces in Afghanistan or Iraq.....they got caught up in the sweep and held for 4+ years w/o any justification.
QFT!!!

If these 'detainees' had been picked up in combat, it could easily be accepted that gitmo is the place for them, however, that did not happen with most or even all of these people. The 'right' to plead their case belongs to them to determine their status.
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:09 AM   #191 (permalink)
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I show you all their intentionally misleading statements (i.e. ..."lies")describing who they've detained at Gitmo....instead of trying to defend the statements linked to whitehouse.gov pages..for you to verify, you post, "Host, you hate Bush"..... If my opinion is challenged, I counter the points in the challenge. This is all part of the "grab more power via playing the fear card"....how many cities are we gonna lose, Newt? http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...6/16/gingrich/ ....it's getting old, cost us lots of lives, lots of money...in an intentional campaign of deception designed to control us....nothing to defend about....certainly not by blaming me for who you think that I hate....
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:09 AM   #192 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
....You catch that Host, the Supreme Court upheld a lower courts opinion that the AUMF from 9-19-2001 gave the President authority!
As to the claim that the AUMF gave the president authority to deny the most basic rights to detainees, here is what Stevens said in the majority opinion...:
Quote:
As to the statutory authorization, there is nothing in the Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) "even hinting" at expanding the President's war powers beyond those enumerated in Art. 21. Instead, the AUMF, the UCMJ, and the DTA "at most acknowledge" the President's authority to convene military commissions only where justified by the exigencies of war, but still operating within the laws of war.
...as part of the decision to strike down parts of the Detainees Treatment act because its military commissions did not provide detainees the rights comparable to UCMJ or Genenva Conventions.
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:23 AM   #193 (permalink)
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Quote:
...huge numbers of detainees in U.S. custody weren't "captured fighting against the U.S." at all. Many were taken from their homes. Others were just snatched off the street while engaged in the most mundane activities. Still others were abducted while in airports or at work.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/06/17/yoo/
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:45 AM   #194 (permalink)
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will, they decided on an "offshore prison" they said was extra territorial....outside the jurisdiction of US courts. It's purpose was as a "fear prop"....designed to be filled with what Cheney called, "bad actors"....to be held up to us in all of the linked declarations inluded in my two posts back, post.
They reasoned that their fear card would be more effectively played if they could refer to hundreds of "terrorists captured on the battlefield".....and all of their elaborate "we'll provide the fear to justify the power grab", worked great for Bush and Cheney....so well that democratic leaders Rockefeller and Hoyer were reported on sunday in Wapo to be nearing a FISA "reform" compromise that will give the white house everything it demanded....electronic surveillance with no authorization by a judge based on examination of evidence to justify it.....probable cause. Mojo's side doesn't care if the whole fear presentation is contrived, false, or intended as a power grab. They know that moving toward government by unaccountable, "decider" executive will "make us safe"....we won't lose the city Newt is worried about losing....we just lose the entire country instead, served up, to the decider, by the legislative majority.....unless this 5 to 4 supreme court split is still there, to rule against the coming power grab laws, like the FISA "reform".
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Old 06-17-2008, 10:01 AM   #195 (permalink)
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From Duke Law:
Quote:
The key element of the Court’s statutory reasoning was that the AUMF was a sufficient authorization of battlefield detentions to satisfy § 4001(a), because the detention of enemies seized on the battlefield was sufficiently related to the conduct of the military action contemplated by the authorization that it was an “exercise of ‘necessary and appropriate force.’”
Also I do believe your representation of Stevens as being in the majority is 100% wrong, as the decision was held in plurality with O' Connor writing the opinion with Rehnquist, Breyer, and Kennedy; Souter and Ginsberg ruling concurrently against the detention but stating Hamdi has the right to challenge his detention; and <gasp> the evil conservatives Scalia, Thomas, and your boy Stevens dissenting.

Quote:
In determining that the AUMF was an Act of Congress sufficient to satisfy § 4001(a), the plurality limited the holding to the facts before it, and limited the justification for such detention to the sole objective of preventing an enemy combatant from returning to the battlefield, and then only so long as there continued to be “active hostilities.” While the government argued that by its nature, it is difficult to predict the end of hostilities, the Court stated that the possibility of perpetual detention was troubling.
The court was troubled by the very questions everyone here poses, and I agree with. The issue is however, and the court recognized it, is congress gave authority for force and troops are still in active combat in Afghanistan.

http://www.law.duke.edu/publiclaw/su...entary/hamvrum
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Old 06-17-2008, 01:42 PM   #196 (permalink)
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So just to be clear -- I am right, and this law is a "fuck you" to the citizens of every other nation on the entire Earth?

I'm looking for help here to make a concrete, real-world decision. The election could be triggered literally any day now. I can support a party that will continue supplying about 20% of all front-line combat troops in Afghanistan, in an alliance with the USA, or I can support a party that will withdraw all military involvement in Afghanistan as soon as possible.

Who will win is completely up in the air.

Am I right in thinking that it is the position of the US executive, and now US Senate, that at the whim of the US president any person in the entire world can be kidnapped, moved to a secret location, held in secret, interrogated using whatever techniques the US president chooses, have no ability to contest their incarceration for 5+ years, and this is all perfectly OK, legal, official, up-and-up, every-day, hum-drum acts, as far as the USA is concerned?

Because, that isn't the kind of thing I want to be in alliance with.

So, someone please, tell me where my error is.

Does the USA find kidnapping people, detaining them for 5+ years without any kind of real judicial review, "interrogating" them using techniques that are banned under the Geneva convention (chosen in secret), as acceptable, so long as the person in question does not hold a US citizenship? Is that the official position of your government?
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Old 06-17-2008, 01:45 PM   #197 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
From Duke Law:

Also I do believe your representation of Stevens as being in the majority is 100% wrong, as the decision was held in plurality with O' Connor writing the opinion with Rehnquist, Breyer, and Kennedy; Souter and Ginsberg ruling concurrently against the detention but stating Hamdi has the right to challenge his detention; and <gasp> the evil conservatives Scalia, Thomas, and your boy Stevens dissenting.

The court was troubled by the very questions everyone here poses, and I agree with. The issue is however, and the court recognized it, is congress gave authority for force and troops are still in active combat in Afghanistan.

http://www.law.duke.edu/publiclaw/su...entary/hamvrum
Mojo....i think the confusion is in the case under discussion....Hamdi or Hamdan

Stevens wrote the majority opinion in Hamdan v Rumsfeld...joined by Kennedy, Suter, Ginsburg and Breyer.... Scalia, Thomas and Alito, the "evil conservatives" dissented:
The Supreme Court, in a 5-to-3 decision authored by Justice John Paul Stevens, held that neither an act of Congress nor the inherent powers of the Executive laid out in the Constitution expressly authorized the sort of military commission at issue in this case. Absent that express authorization, the commission had to comply with the ordinary laws of the United States and the laws of war. The Geneva Convention, as a part of the ordinary laws of war, could therefore be enforced by the Supreme Court, along with the statutory Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Steven's full judgement including the statement I post above, re: the AUMF as it applies to the rights of detainees.
This was in 2006, two years after the Hamdi v Rumsfeld case to which you refer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakk
So just to be clear -- I am right, and this law is a "fuck you" to the citizens of every other nation on the entire Earth?
....
Am I right in thinking that it is the position of the US executive, and now US Senate, that at the whim of the US president any person in the entire world can be kidnapped, moved to a secret location, held in secret, interrogated using whatever techniques the US president chooses, have no ability to contest their incarceration for 5+ years, and this is all perfectly OK, legal, official, up-and-up, every-day, hum-drum acts, as far as the USA is concerned?
Yaak....you are right in your assessment of the position of the President and the Senate (Republican majority at the time)....they tried to pass a kangaroo "military court" off as providing detainees with equal rights under the law.

But the Supreme Court is the ultimate decider and the latest ruling is a "fuck you" to Bush.....but for the record Supreme Court justices never say fuck you...at least in their formal opinions.

However, the larger problem still persists.....US troops can pretty grab and detain anyone that want off the streets of Baghdad or Kabul and hold them with no charges or just cause in the name of "fighting terrorism."
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Old 06-17-2008, 06:03 PM   #198 (permalink)
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Did the supreme court free the non-American citizens imprisioned on nothing but the say of the President for 5 years without access to habius corpus? Did it state that those who kept them imprisioned over those 5 years should be punished for their action?

As far as I can tell, the answer is "no" and "no".

I'm sorry, kidnapping someone, "interrogating" them with arbitrary classified torture mechanisms, and holding them for 5 years with no option to contest the imprisonment in anything that isn't a kangaroo court, is already a "fuck you".

If I read the ruling right, the Supreme Court simply said "the kangaroo court you produced isn't good enough. Feel free to make up a new kangaroo court, hold them, torture them as much as you want, and then come back to us in a few more years and we'll see if that new kangaroo court is enough."

What the ruling doesn't say is "you have failed to uphold habeus corpus, and as such you may not legally hold these individuals any more". Or declared that individuals who held these individuals illegally are guilty of kidnapping, illegal imprisonment, etc. Or said "Given the extreme delays, you have 1 week to place these people in front of a civilian judge, and that judge has the power to release these individuals if insufficient evidence for imprisonment is presented within 2 months."

Those would be a "no, this isn't right, you aren't allowed to do it, stop it". Instead, it appears like it is being treated as a minor procedural error.
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Old 06-17-2008, 07:42 PM   #199 (permalink)
 
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Yakk....your interpretation as a non-American is a fair and reasonable interpretation. I cant argue with it at all.

Which might explain, in part, why Bush is considered the world leader second least likely to do the right thing regarding world affairs.

In a recent World Public Opinion poll of 20 nations, a majority of citizens in only two of those countries (Nigeria and India) have “a lot” or “some” confidence that President Bush will do “the right thing regarding world affairs.” Bush ranks below Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad but just edges out Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf as the world's worst leader.


World Public Opinion Poll
Which might also explain why most of Bush's "war on terrorism" has been a successful recruiting tool for terrorist.
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Old 06-17-2008, 10:09 PM   #200 (permalink)
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Quote:
The U.S. military hid the locations of suspected terrorist detainees and concealed harsh treatment to avoid the scrutiny of the International Committee of the Red Cross, according to documents that a Senate committee released Tuesday.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0..._n_107702.html

This is just more evidence that the GWOT is a massive human rights disaster. In trying to "fight terrorism" we have become the antagonists to all that is moral and just.
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