dc_dux

I think it was the gas price wars that led to many of the state predatory pricing laws.

The major oil companies (Standard Oil, Exxon, etc) colluding to lower prices to below cost in selective markets to drive out the independent stations and to squeeze their own franchisees. It may have been good for consumers in those markets, but, IMO, blatantly anti-competitive practices are not part of a "free market" economy.

Predatory pricing is difficult to prove which may explain, in part, why there are so few cases. But when it is evident, I'm all for holding the "big boys" accountable.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Lady Sage

Unfortunately that is how business works. Stores do it all the time and so do doctors and vets. I believe the term is "competitive pricing".

If indeed you have all those things she doesnt then you shouldnt worry about her ending up with your clients.

Out of curiosity what are the difference in hours between your business and hers?

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

ubertuber

Walmart to expand low-cost prescription plan.

I'm not surprised this plan met with success and acclaim. Of course this is just a leader article. It will be interesting to see if fuller versions get posted that talk about any down-sides that were found in FL. I predict not much will be said about that side of the equation.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

NCB

Companies arent in business to provide employees with benefits or overtime work.

__________________

filtherton

You're right if you happen to take a dim view of the responsibility of business in a larger social context. Unfortunately, a dirty little truth about businessess is that they are required to pay their employees for the work they do. Wal-mart is one of those great companies that in some instances has required that employees work off the clock so as to cut their overhead.

Lady Sage

Which is illegal as all hell here and probably most other places. Walmart currently has a lawsuit over making employees do just that.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

aceventura3

Why would people work for a company forcing them to do illegal stuff?

Why whouldn't they report that illegal stuff to an agency as soon as it starts?

Do employees have any responsibility to themselves and fellow employees?

If employee don't help police the work place in this day and age, who do they think will? Do they just sit around and wait for the proverbial "knight in shining armor"?

Oh, and before the attacks - My questions do not excuse illegal behavior. If Wal-Mart or anyone breaks the law, they should pay the price. But at what point do people stand up and stop being victims???

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

pan6467

I heard almost the exact same thing yesterday on the radio, "Companies are not in business to employ people." (2 guesses what right winged nut said it). I have never in my life heard anything so pathetic, so desparateto win an argument. I had to shake my head and laugh. Someone else must have listened to Limbaugh yesterday also but agreed with him.

Unless it is a one man company, where the person does everything from produce the raw material to making, marketing and selling the product, employees are needed. Since employees are needed in 99.99% of all companies, I quote that famed union buster Henry Ford.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

ubertuber

Ace, I'm confused by your point here. That these things happen is patently true. People don't report things for a variety of things, but mostly they're afraid of losing their jobs. Other times they do report things and regulatory agencies don't step in as they should.

Of course I agree that people should stand up and stop being victims, but I don't know how you mean this. I'm assuming that you don't mean unionization should be forced upon Walmart. Are you trying to imply that no illegal practices take place? I'm genuinely missing your thrust. Can you clarify?

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

filtherton

I don't really see the relevance. Obviously some employees did stand up, since, you know, litigation and all.

Another good question: At which point do people stop trying to redirect anger at corporate malfeasance?

dc_dux

A Pennsylvania judge ruled last week that Walmart violated state labor laws by forcing some employees to continue working through breaks and off the clock. Yesterday, the jury awarded $78 million to 187,000 current and former employees who worked at Walmart and Sam’s Clubs in Pennsylvania from March 1998 through May of this year.

http://cbs3.com/topstories/local_story_286145532.html

Walmart settled a Colorado case for $50 million several years ago and is appealing a $172 million award handed down last year by a California jury for the same illegal labor practices in those states. Suits in other states are pending.

The question is not why people continue to work for Walmart. The question is why Walmart continues to violate the law in state after state.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ubertuber

Because it's cheaper than following the law?

Because individual managers have more balls than judgment?

Those are my first two guesses.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

NCB

I understand that at the emotional level, liberals have a hard time with that simple fact, so I expected such an emotional response. Yes, employees are needed, but the great thing about it is that they are free to work where they want and to negotiate a compensation package to thier liking. Thats the great thing about the free market. And since we're quoting favorite Henry Ford quotes, I think you'll like this one:

.

__________________

Lady Sage

It sounds nice in theory yes. Unfortunately, the "package" I negotiated at my job nearly 6 years ago looked real good on paper and sounded even sweeter... Reality is a real wench and thats all I will say about it.

Promises arent intended to be kept and are easily broken.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

filtherton

Yeah, i was just talking to bill gates about taking over for him when he's done at microsoft. I told him, i said "Bill, when i start working here i want to be pulled around by software engineers in a golden chariot. Make it so." And he was all like "That's the great thing about the american marketplace, the people are free to work where they want with compensation packages they like."

Wait, no, that didn't happen. Because no one is free to work where they want for a compensation package they like. In reality, people take what they can get because having a really shitty job that you hate pays the bills the same way that a great one does.

aceventura3

I think the "people are afraid" line is BS. The other extreme is they are filing these lawsuits to get rich, and don't really care about the working conditions. Perhaps the truth is in the middle. I was interest in the opinions of others, so I asked the questions. As usual I get no answers, when will I learn????

My questions are simple - you seem to want to make them more complicated. I just don't understand why people tolerate the things they put up with, my mind is different. If you screw with me once, you might get away with it, but not the "second time".

Again, why single out Walmart? Most major employers have or have had these kinds of violations, even your employer.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

filtherton

What if the people screwing you sign your checks, you've got a family to feed and there aren't any other jobs in your area?

aceventura3

It depends on how bad the conditions are. I have never been a clock watcher, even in my first job at Mcdonalds. I would work through breaks all the time when it got busy, I covered for others, came in early and stayed late. That has always been my approach to my jobs. When I was cleaning the toilets at Mcdonalds I decided I want to learn something new, I had the guys teach me how to run the grill (I stayed late on day), and when they needed a grill person I was ready, I gave the mop/bucket and towels to the guy who didn't know sh*t.

My dad grew up in the rural south. He had low paying jobs and no opportunity - he moved us where there where opportunities. Would you do the same?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

NCB

Classic defeatist, liberal attitude. People choose to take what they can get based on their own choices. They choose to not go to college. They choose to knock up some skanks from the local bar and have to pay child support. Ect...

__________________

Lady Sage

Some people cant afford to move and where I live there has been 3 major corporations close their doors. Examples being Timken Research and Hoover. There are more unemployed than there are jobs...

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

NCB

Again, not having money and budgeting is a conscious choice.

__________________

aceventura3

You are kidding, right? People moved here from Europe with nothing a few generations ago. During Jim Crow in the South hundreds of thousands of families move North with nothing. During the depression people moved. Today millions cross our southern boarders with nothing, but a hope and a dream. You say Joe Blue Collar can't move from the "rust-belt" or some other dying town to where jobs are plentiful??? Please tell me you are kidding. If you are not kidding, are people really that lazy and short-sighted?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

filtherton

Pehaps your attitude could be called a classic conservative misunderstaning of reality. Despite whatever connotations you may apply, it is still reality. You can't have a job just because you want it. That's a ridiculous notion. The idea that single employees have much of any say in how they are compensated is ridiculous too. That's like saying that anyone can pay whatever price they want for something regardless of what's actually going on in the market.

You didn't really answer my question. How would you stop someone from screwing you if that someone is pretty much the only game in town in terms of employment opportunities and you have more at stake than your pride?

dc_dux

I agree there is shared responsiblity. Workers should do whatever is within their means to provide for their families...if that requires moving, advancing their skills or education, etc. And, in the meantime, taking whatever job is available, even if the working conditions are not the best.

BUT, companies have a responsiblity to abide by labor laws.

From Walmar's SEC filing last year:
Ace...you continue to suggest again and again that "most major employers have or have had these kinds of violations, even your employer" (as I said before, that is wrong). Yet you never identify any company that continues to violate state and federal labor laws with anywhere near the frequency that approaches Walmart's offenses. Your rationalization of Walmart's labor practices just doesnt pass the facts test.

And the notion that employees are filing these law suits to get rich? Divide $78 milllion by 180,000 workers in the class action suit in PA.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Lady Sage

No, actually I wasnt kidding. Life happens.

I am glad life hasnt happened to you in that respect but life does happen to some people and you cant rent a moving van without money, you cant put a down payment or a deposit without money. You cant pay rent or a mortgage without money. You cant heat your home without money. If you dont have it you dont have it and you will do what you can with what you have.

I sincerely hope you guys never have to learn that the hard way.

For some people its eat or pay bills.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

aceventura3

I worked for Mcdonalds in highschool and in college. There were wage and hour violation occuring everyday. I thought you work for the federal government - enough said if true. How many examples do you need? Do your own research, talk to someone at the department of labor since you are in Washington. Talk to people who work in the HR field. Do you really believe Walmart has a bigger proportional problem than others?

Perhaps, it the lawyers getting rich. I said employees filing lawsuits to get rich was an extreme view, just like I think employees are affraid of getting fired line is. I think Walmart is a target because of the Unions. If you have not notice Walmart has been at war against unionization for about 30 years. Isn't there a possibility that Unions are in part responsible for some of the activity against Walmart.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

roachboy

on the other hand, walmart practices are a very strong argument for the need for unions--perhaps not the types of unions that have been particular to the american model of capitalism--but there we are.

this thread seems to address my inner marxist and so let's indulge him:
a worker sells his labor power to capital in return for a wage.
because the worker sells his labor power--not his skill, but his ability to perform a repetitive task--and walmart (like macdo) is a very highly deskilled type of service sector work---because the worker is selling his labor power, it follows any worker who possesses labor power is interchangeable with any other. from the viewpoint of capital, this is a basic feature of labor markets in deskilled sectors.
now ace, you might not like the language, but you cannot get around the basic claim.

this means that there is a fundamental assymetry of power within wage relations--and in general terms, so long as workers remain isolated, that is so long as they interact with capital as individuals, they will always always loose. this was a primary motivation for the formation of unions in the first place: while it is the case that individual workers acting as individuals will always loose in conflicts with capital, the same situation does not obtain is workers organize themselves. acting collectively, workers can develop weapons that to some extent counters the advantage in power capital enjoys: in particular they can shut down the workplace--they can strike. by shutting down the workplace, they can endanger the existence of the enterprise--they threaten profits.

walmart's practices are only possible in a reactionary political context that views all worker organization as a threat. because, frankly, it IS a threat--but it is a threat that i think in general a good thing because it is the ONLY way in which the power relations that obtain between capital and workers can be meaningfully altered. walmart knows this. you, ace, know this: that is why (at one level or another) you act as though worker organization is anathema.

i think working people should develop new forms of collective organization.
i think they need to develop new forms of organization--because if they dont, they are well and truly fucked and will always be well and truly fucked. this is one of the structuring features of the game of capitalism, one of the few things that is as true about that game in 2006 as it was in 1848.

caveat: i am not endorsing the american trade union model--the sector-monopoly model--i dont know how anyone in their right mind can endorse that model, which has was developed because it reduced the political threat of union organization by depoliticizing them, but which resulted in the worst types of unions that capitalism has yet seen: organizations that reproduced internally most of the forms of domination that they were set up to counter.

there is a complex history behind this that i could run out but i am ot sure that it is worth the space at this point...this not meant as any disrespect to a reader, but rather it just take alot of time to write and probably even more to read. besides, there are tons of books about this. and books are better than messageboards for complex historical information.

so walmart and its ilk are among the strongest arguments i know of for unionization of some kind. they are running demonstrations of what happens to working people when they pretend to themselves that capital's interests and their interests are the same--they aren't. they never have been, and they never will be so long as the game of capitalism is in effect.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dc_dux

How many examples will do?

I would settle for just one.

I've asked you repeatedly to provide any evidence or facts (with sources) that support your contention that "most companies" violate labor laws in a similar manner and frequency as Walmart and you still havent.

You respond with anecdotes about McDonalds and the federal government (no, I dont work for the fed) but nothing to show that Walmart's labor practices are common.

Post something credible....like an annual report or a corporate SEC filing (similar to Walmart’s that identifies more than 50 court cases of FLSA violations), DOL rulings....ANYTHING!

I dont doubt that you believe Walmart's labor practices are not out of the ordinary, but it takes more to prove it than your assertion that "they occur every day".

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Intense1

I don't know about labor practices, nor am I informed about any local lawsuits against Walmart. But I have seen this - in Walmart, the elderly are employed, and I haven't seen that in Target, K-Mart, Sears, Home Depot, or any other localized outlets. And in suburban America, that is vitally important.

So in the desire to kick Wal-Mart, let's deal with their "hire the elderly" policy as well. They give jobs to those who need it, and in their later years. The elderly don't care about unions and the like, they just need a job that will provide for their financial needs. You can argue about labor and market practices, but at least, Wal-Mart hires the elderly.

__________________
(none yet, still thinkin')

dc_dux

Walmart has also been found guily of taking out "dead peasant" life insurance policies on their elderly employees in order to get a tax break in addition to naming the company as beneficiary instead of the relatives. The law has since been changed to prevent companies from getting tax breaks for these policies. Walmart now stands to lose $millions which it could have avoided if it had been ethical in the first place.
Its just another example of how Walmart exploits those who are most in need of a job - low skilled workers (many single mothers), elderly, illegal immigrants......

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

In '05 the DOL collected more than $166 million in back wages for 241 million employees. there were over 30,000 complaints registered.

In '05 the DOL collected more than $134 million for 219 million employees in minimum wage and overtime violations.

The industry with the largest amount of violations was not retail but resaurants.

One can safely assume that like most government enforcement agencies they can only catch a small percent of the violations in any given year. So the data represent just the tip of the iceburg.

Here is a link:

http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/statistics/200531.htm

Do you want your crow baked or fried?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

Ace....your numbers are impressive, but you still havent respond to the issue I raised. Your stats provide a total picture, but do not identify employers.

I've no doubt and never did that labor violations exist well beyond Walmart. What I asked you to provide is any example of MULTIPLE REPEAT OFFENDERS among other retailers or large businesses comparable to Walmart.

Put the crow on a slow burner for now.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

Please don't misunderstand my position. I have nothing against unions and I recognize the purpose they serve in centralizing power for low skilled workers. I simply support the workers right to make a choice. The worker should be free to work in a union shop and belong to the union, work in a union shop and not belong to the union, or work for a non-union shop. I think employers should have the right to deal with unions or not. If unions truely provide a benefit, the union would not have to force itself on unwilling employees. And people belonging to unions have the right to support union shops and not support non-union shops. If there is an economic cost of a shop being non-union, that shop would welcome unions. The real question comes down to - where is value being added?




I think Walmart is over-reacting to the union issue. But I do understand their concern. Unions have ultimately hurt the US automotive industry.

The power relations between capital and workers can be altered in many ways that do not include Unions. One is when the workers buy into the capital. When employees have a vested interest in the long-term success of an organization - it forms a win-win situation (ther have been some exceptions but the exceptions are rare and mostly due to criminal behavior)

They can get f*cked by their unions too. When to much power is given to too few, you have the receipe for problems. I think the answer is that each individual take personal ownership of what they offer the market place. They should not rely on "big brother", "big business", or "big unions".

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

Walmart has another issue to deal with:

The American Family Association is up in arms that Walmart is "in an alliance with the National Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce" ...and "has called on Christian consumers to spend their dollars elsewhere as a sign of their displeasure with Wal-Mart's pro-homosexual leanings..."

http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/10/242006c.asp

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

I gave anecdotal evidence. I gave evidence of labor law violations from one of your employers, the federal government. I gave general statisical evidence. And it still not good enough. The reason I said do your own reasearch is because no matter what I present to you, it will be "wrong, wrong, wrong...".

You want me to prove that it is raining when that fact is obvious. How about we move on and spend time discussing more intelectually interesting concepts...please...please with sugar...please

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

Ace....my point is that your stats are in the aggregate.....for all you or I know, those thousands of labor violations identified in the retail sector could be mostly from Walmart employees.

But lets move on

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

Ah but the difference between all your examples of the past and today is that people today carry their credit ratings with them wherever they go.

I know people who worked at Hoover and Timken. They were/are hard workers and good people. They bought houses, carried mortgages they were never late on, bought cars, saved for their kids' college, paid good taxes to the communities, state and feds, kept alive little mom and pop shops, etc.

Now, you take away their jobs, leave them with jobs that pay less than half of what they were making, they still have those loans, they still have to pay those same property taxes, they still have to find ways to pay for their kids' college..... and it's all their fault??????

The housing market prices are taking a dump, so they can't even get what they owe on the house to pay the mortgage down, they can't pay their mortgage and live on what they now make..... but it's their fault?

How the Hell can they move when no matter where they go their credit rating follows them, doesn't show how great a worker they were, just shows they were deliquent on loans, couldn't pay their mortgages, etc..... their credit basically shows these hard workers to be deadbeats, and if they do move to a place where there are jobs, who is going to hire a 40 year old who has bad credit, when they can hire a 20 year old for less?

So you are out of touch with reality. You want to come and see for yourself what is going on here, tell these hard working, proud people that they can just up and move to a better area and things will be ok?

Every week the Akron Beacon Journal has in it's classifieds the legal notices of foreclosure auctions..... last week there were 7 full pages.

Who in turn pays for these foreclosures, the bad loans from these "deadbeats"?

We all do in higher interest rates, taxes, etc.

Who pays for these mom and pop shops closing because there are not enough good paying jobbed customers to shop there? We all do in the long run because it leaves cheap box stores that import 75% of their goods, but then when they can't make profits they leave also.

Who pays the taxes these people no longer can pay? We all do, those of us who have jobs pay more, because the burden is more. Those of us who own property, pay more because we have to make up for the losses.

I can't believe the only answer coming from intelligent people who buy into the bullshit the neo-cons feed them is to tell people to move.

Move where?

Didn't think so

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

aceventura3

People don't always have to move. Another option is to learn new marketable skills. There are other options. It seems that the main point is missed - people don't have to be victims of circumstance.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

pan6467

Is this from the same guy who said this (how quickly he changes his tune and redefines "the point" of the debate )??????



Ok, we'll take that you truly meant the top and the first was just an emotional response given way back when......

So the people I described from Hoover, Timken and so on... that have mortgages they cannot afford, houses that they can't sell and tax liens on their houses are supposed to find a way to get money to go to school to learn a new trade that will still pay them what? And exactly when are they going to find the time to go to classes when they have to work 2 jobs to try to keep food on the table?

Victims of circumstances????? what are they supposed to do?

What are the communities that lose that tax base supposed to do for the schools, police, safety departments?

Like I said, why don't you come here and tell these hard workers who have had their lives destroyed that they are wimps?

Tell them that losing their jobs, not being able to honor their debts thus watching their credit ratings plummet, making 1/3 of what they used to because that's all the jobs around here pay, that they are crybabies and being victims, that it's easy to get a job that will pay you enough to have some pride, stand tall, be able to pay that debt and keep your family fed....

Tell those people here that...... see how well they buy into your side.

Props on making it all the laid off workers fault and not addressing anything I said.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

aceventura3

My father is a retired machine operator, he worke at Caterpillar for 35 years. My uncle worked at US steel before his job was eleminated. My first job out of college was with Caterpillar, I got laid off and never received an offer to return. At one time I had a union card while I had a summer job with them (I had to pay dues eventhough I knew I was going back to school and I could have used the extra money for school) I grew up in the "rust belt". I saw first hand what happens to a community when good jobs with good wages and benefits leave.

In my experience there were two ways people responded. The way you describe their plight were people sit around feeling sorry for themselves, and the way I describe opportunity and they way I have seen people respond to a bad situation.

I don't get your point.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."