The Pope and the West are "doomed" - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Willravel · 09-23-2006, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

I know the truth as Will so eliquently puts it, I see with both eyes. I see how they are simply statements which are ignored by the very people who write them. How half of the sentence is worthy of repeating in a blood-chant, while the rest are suitable for being ignored.

So then you see that it is not Islam that is violent, but some members of Islam? That's what I've been saying. It's good to agree.

Ustwo, you can't spread a religon by the sword. Faith comes through acceptance, and how willing are people going to be accepting faith in their hearts with a knife at their throat? It simply doesn't make sense. Where do you get this idea that Islam is a religon that spreads through violence? Have you read the Qu'ran? Do you know any Arab Muslims? Again, I must say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

When was the last time you were in Iraq? Lebanon? Israel? UAE? Iran? I've not been to the UAE or Iran, but I do have friends and acquaintences scattered all over the ME. I've been to Iraq. I've been to Israel. I've been to Lebanon. One of my good friends in Lebanon was just killed, as a matter of fact (not to elicit sympathy for my argument, but to show that innocent Muslims die in the ME, too).

You can't speak for these people just by reading a newspaper or watching a news program, Ustwo. In order to speak for a culture, espically one that is not your own, you must be intamately familiar with it. Judging by your posts, you are not. Therefore, all this huffing and puffing about Muslim extreemism being the norm and not the exception is useless. It would be like me teaching a class on 16th century French Literature. I don't know jack shit about the subject except for maybe a week of English classes my Sophmore year in college, but I could pretend to know what I was talking about enough to where I could actually fool a few people into thinking I knew. How could I do that? Well I'm a pretty sharp guy and I'm good at talking at people, just like you.

MINCKEN · 09-24-2006, 08:25 AM

I use Herman’s explination to Gilbert to illustrate yesterday, today and tomorrow. Both here and abroad. Religious, Political and Rio Grande.

Later in the conversation, Gilbert recorded Goering's observations that the common people can always be manipulated into supporting and fighting wars by their political leaders:
We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction.
"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."
"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."
"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

"Religion is like farts...yours is good, but everybody else's stinks."

Seaver · 09-24-2006, 02:26 PM

Quote:

So then you see that it is not Islam that is violent, but some members of Islam? That's what I've been saying. It's good to agree.

Ustwo, you can't spread a religon by the sword. Faith comes through acceptance, and how willing are people going to be accepting faith in their hearts with a knife at their throat? It simply doesn't make sense. Where do you get this idea that Islam is a religon that spreads through violence? Have you read the Qu'ran? Do you know any Arab Muslims?

I never said the religion was peaceful, if it were Muhammad would not have clearly said to go and conquor people.

And conversion by the blade? That's not quite what they did. It was convert or be slightly better than a slave. If it was convert or die there would be no Christians or Jews in the region left. That, however, is what their religion has been turned into.

Ustwo · 09-24-2006, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

And conversion by the blade? That's not quite what they did. It was convert or be slightly better than a slave. If it was convert or die there would be no Christians or Jews in the region left. That, however, is what their religion has been turned into.

I wanted to ask this of the Jews in Saudi Arabia, but for some reason I can't find any.

Willravel · 09-24-2006, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I wanted to ask this of the Jews in Saudi Arabia, but for some reason I can't find any.

That's because you've never been. It's hard to speak to a people when you don't actually speak to them.

Jewish tourism and buisness sees a lot of Jewish people moving in, around, and out of Saudi Arabia without incodent. Yes, there is a huge problem with anti-semitism there, but that hardly means there ar no Jewish people there.

Ustwo · 09-24-2006, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

That's because you've never been. It's hard to speak to a people when you don't actually speak to them.

Jewish tourism and buisness sees a lot of Jewish people moving in, around, and out of Saudi Arabia without incodent. Yes, there is a huge problem with anti-semitism there, but that hardly means there ar no Jewish people there.

The public worship of religions other than the official version of
Sunni Islam is prohibited by law: "The Government does not provide
legal protection for freedom of religion, and such protection does not
exist in practice. Islam is the official religion, and the law
requires that all citizens be Muslims. The Government prohibits the
public practice of non-Muslim religions. The Government recognizes the
right of non-Muslims to worship in private; however, it does not
always respect this right in practice, and does not define this right
in law." (SOURCE: International Religious Freedom Report,
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/ant...iarabia03.html

You didn't know this will?

There were Jews in Saudia Arabia once, guess what happened to them?

Willravel · 09-24-2006, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The public worship of religions other than the official version of Sunni Islam is prohibited by law: "The Government does not provide
legal protection for freedom of religion, and such protection does not
exist in practice. Islam is the official religion, and the law
requires that all citizens be Muslims. The Government prohibits the
public practice of non-Muslim religions. The Government recognizes the
right of non-Muslims to worship in private; however, it does not
always respect this right in practice, and does not define this right
in law." (SOURCE: International Religious Freedom Report,
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/ant...iarabia03.html

You didn't know this will?

There were Jews in Saudia Arabia once, guess what happened to them?

Of course I know. Just becuase the right isn't protected by law does not mean that they don't practice. What happened to the most of the Jews in Saudi Arabia? Judging by your inference, they were all killed or converted (by terrorism, no less). In reality, most of them left unharmed. Saudi Arabia is a monarchy, run by many very sick people. The men implicated in the 9/11 terrorist attacks were Saudi. They commit numerous human rights violations.

The Jews left unharmed, and are rarely mistreated even today. Compare the practice of Judism to the practice of homosexuality there, where people routinly have their hands or feet are amputated.

hiredgun · 09-24-2006, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Will just where IS this MAJORITY of muslims, I haven't heard from them, I haven't seen them. Would they be in Iran? Sudan? Saudi Arabia? Syria? Lebanon? Where is this peaceful majority?

...you rang?

Infinite_Loser · 09-24-2006, 09:45 PM

Even if the majority of Muslims aren't beligerent, they're sure as hell outspoken by the number of them who are (And they really don't seem to care, either). I've not exactly seen many Muslims jump up in protest when their leaders advocate death to the West and its allies; In fact, you see just the opposite. Meh... Does anyone remember the pictures of the Saudis and Sudanese clapping, jumping for joy, burning the American flag and shouting "Death to America!" and "Praise be to Allah!" when they received the news regarding 9/11? That sort of stuff doesn't help Muslims win any friends.

And, before someone says it, I'm in no way stating that all Muslims are war-mongering. Even if it's not the mainstream way of thinking, you'd never know as every day you turn on the TV or read the newspaper or look at an article on the internet you see another Islamic ruler preaching hate for people's and/or their religions. Ironically enough, the same leaders seem to be popular within the Islamic community.

Seaver · 09-24-2006, 10:26 PM

Quote:

And, before someone says it, I'm in no way stating that all Muslims are war-mongering. Even if it's not the mainstream way of thinking, you'd never know as every day you turn on the TV or read the newspaper or look at an article on the internet you see another Islamic ruler preaching hate for people's and/or their religions. Ironically enough, the same leaders seem to be popular within the Islamic community.

Yeah, when an Imam actually denounces terrorism it makes international news. Does anyone else find it strange that a peaceful religion makes international headlines when one of thousands of religious teachers actually says that killing innocent people on purpose is wrong?

hiredgun · 09-24-2006, 10:41 PM

Seaver, the vast majority of imams denounce terrorism and violence.

That is my experience over many dozens of mosques in both the US and the Muslim world.

If you think that the number of Islamic religious figures who do not advocate violence is small, then you are simply, utterly, factually wrong.

roachboy · 09-25-2006, 05:03 AM

if we were to apply to christianity the "logic" of ustwo and seaver's attempts to "prove" that islam is a violent religion , we would be wondering why all christians do rituals involving the handling of poisonous snakes---or we would be trying to "prove" using a range of quotes ripped out of context that the inquisition is the adequate expression of the entirety of christian doctrine---we could read various half-baked websites that quote aquinas, snip fragments from sections of the "summa" that try to determine the line between heretic and unbeliever and from there try to "demonstrate" that christianity is "spread by the sword"..

these really are absurd claims you are pursuing.

to wax charitable for a minute, let's assume that the problem is logical:
the response: arguments from essence are stupid, lads.
they dont get you anywhere: they explain nothing, they illuminate nothing.

if we are not so charitable, the question of motivation becomes ugly indeed:

this because i see little difference between the kind of arguments they are pursuing above and those you see in the protocols of the elders of zion that attempt to "prove" the "evils" of judaism.

Seaver · 09-25-2006, 05:24 AM

Quote:

to wax charitable for a minute, let's assume that the problem is logical:
the response: arguments from essence are stupid, lads.
they dont get you anywhere: they explain nothing, they illuminate nothing.

if we are not so charitable, the question of motivation becomes ugly indeed:

this because i see little difference between the kind of arguments they are pursuing above and those you see in the protocols of the elders of zion that attempt to "prove" the "evils" of judaism.

Nice, teetering on the line there RB. So you find that my arguments are stupid and do not deserve a response other than implying that I'm one of them.

I never said that Islam was evil, as your elders of zion allusion implied. I never said that Islam was worse than any other religion. I study it in about half of my classes with my major, I'm facinated by it. However, one only has to look at the Qur'an, Shari'a, and the Hadith to realize that the whole "religion of peace" only applies in instances in which Islam is the official religion. If you call subjegating and humiliting non-believers as peaceful than your arguments are logically stupid and dangerous. It's not a random quote, it was a command from Muhammad.

Lets say Bush today said such a thing. That we were to seek out all non-Christians, subjegate and humiliate them. Could we defend him saying that it was a "range of quotes ripped out of context"? No, because the context is clear. Such an argument could hold water if say, Jesus said to find the unbelievers and torture them into conversion. Instead, it was turn the other cheek, love everyone, etc. Muhammad set a pretext and was quoted as ordering Islam to conquor and THEN convert. Come on Roachboy, you usually have very well developed arguments. This whole shut your ears while you shout "no, you're stupid!" thing does not suit you.

roachboy · 09-25-2006, 06:10 AM

seaver:

the argument i advanced pertained to the posts in this thread. they refer to the symbiotic relation between your posts and those of a much lesser quality from ustwo.
it is a response to reading the posts the two of you put here.
i saw no need to make more general arguments--and if you do not understand the basis for the post i made, read through the thread yourself and you'll see it.
try for a minute to adopt the viewpoint of someone who had not read the thread for several days and returned to it, reading the posts one after the other.

sometimes a thread provides an unsettling context for the individual views presented in it.
i think that is the case in this one.

i tried not to reach around and impute particular motives to you in particular in this case, seaver. but i found the tack you and ustwo were developing, taken together, to be at the least problematic.

but read through the thread one post after another as i did ad you'll see what i was reacting to, i think.

Ustwo · 09-25-2006, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hiredgun

Seaver, the vast majority of imams denounce terrorism and violence.

That is my experience over many dozens of mosques in both the US and the Muslim world.

If you think that the number of Islamic religious figures who do not advocate violence is small, then you are simply, utterly, factually wrong.

Quote:

lmost one in 10 British Muslims would not inform police if they suspected that someone of the same faith was involved in a terror attack, a poll suggested.

The ICM poll for the News of the World found 9% of the 502 questioned would not tell police if they had such suspicions about a fellow Muslim.

With a Muslim population aged over 16 in Britain of around one million, that would translate to 90,000 “turning a blind eye”, the newspaper said.

Thats 9% IN Britain. These are people who for whatever reason decided to leave their native lands to come live in Western Europe. Just what do you think that % will be in Saudi Arabia, or Iran? You know Saudi Arabia where rich men pay the families of suicide bombers.

I would think if peace was being preached, there would be more of an effort to show it to us, and yet all we see are demonstrations of 1000's and 1000's proving a dead emperor correct.

dc_dux · 09-25-2006, 08:33 AM

The Pew Research Center realeased the results of a a survey last year:

Islamic Extremism: Common Concern for Muslim and Western Publics
Support for Terror Wanes Among Muslim Publics

Among the results :

Support for acts of terrorism in defense of Islam has declined dramatically among Muslims in most predominantly Muslim countries surveyed, although support has risen in Jordan. And while support for suicide bombings against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq remains at higher levels, it too has declined substantially among Muslim publics in all four countries with trend comparisons available, including Jordan.

In Turkey support for suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets in order to defend Islam from its enemies was already low compared to other majority-Muslim publics and has remained stable with just 14% of the public saying such actions are often or sometimes justified. In Indonesia only 15% now see terrorism as justified at least sometimes, down from 27% in summer 2002. In Pakistan, 25% now take that view, also a substantial decline from the 41% level to which support had risen in March 2004, while iin Morocco support has fallen dramatically, from 40% to 13% over the last year.

**

Concerns over Islamic extremism, extensive in the West even before this month's terrorist attacks in London, are shared to a considerable degree by the publics in several predominantly Muslim nations surveyed. Nearly three-quarters of Moroccans and roughly half of those in Pakistan, Turkey and Indonesia see Islamic extremism as a threat to their countries. At the same time, most Muslim publics are expressing less support for terrorism than in the past. Confidence in Osama bin Laden has declined markedly in some countries and fewer believe suicide bombings that target civilians are justified in the defense of Islam.

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=248

***

There are some troubling results as well, which if taken as a whole is reason for the US and western allies to better understand the range of perceptions and concerns among muslims around the world.

Most of all, we should avoid stereotypes and generalizations about the "face of Islam" and majority support for terrorism among the muslim populations.

pan6467 · 09-25-2006, 08:57 AM

Let's see, more people have died in wars sparked in the name of Christianity than all other reasons combined.

The Spanish Inquisition, Queen Elizabeth in England who killed off as many Catholics in England as she could, the burning of "witches", the slavery in early America practiced by this vast "true to Christian values and morals" nation we had, and let us not forget how we had to spread Christianity to the heathens.... and if they wouldn't give up their religion we then decided to kill them or enslave them..... Cortez's conquistidors, the Native Americans, the Polynesians, and so on.

And in all those killings and slaveries and conquests, someone was able to pull out a New Testament (since we are now no longer just saying "Bible' and we have to seperate the books) and point to where they were right in their violence and descration of human rights.

So for anyone to sit there and claim Christianity is not as violent nor as manipulated by its leaders, is prejudicial bullshit.

But I do love these people who have no true knowledge of a religion, taking what their political party, the media and others who just make prejudicial claims and treat them as "gospel".

BTW, if one stays true to Christ's teachings, yes it is a very non-violent, very nonjudgemental religion. But it is when you follow the leaders who turn what was said into what they want, and for their own gains that it is violent and used in name only.

Kinda sounds like Islam doesn't it?

flstf · 09-25-2006, 11:56 AM

Pan, I get your point but all your examples are hundreds of years ago, some several centuries. We should of course be concerned about what religious fanatics of all stripes are up to but the biggest threat to civilians today is from Islamic extremists. You are right, I have no true knowledge of these religions other than what is reported in the papers and news shows telling us who the terrorists are after an attack.

Seaver · 09-25-2006, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Let's see, more people have died in wars sparked in the name of Christianity than all other reasons combined.

Really? WWI was because of Christianity? How about 2? How about Nazi'ism? How about Stalin? How about Mao? How about Pol-Pot? How about the millions killed by the Huns, how about the Mongols, how about the Vikings? how about all the cities decimated by Rome? How about the hundreds of Chinese civil wars? How about the genocides in Africa?

Dont spew lies like that and expect us to swallow it.

Mojo_PeiPei · 09-25-2006, 09:41 PM

Here is an article I came across. I think it has some valid points, especially how the whole situation relates to hypocrisy and cowardice.

Quote:

Pope Benedict XVI, during a speech in Germany, at a university where he used to teach, quoted a 14th-century Byzantine Christian emperor: "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.' . . . Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. 'God,' the emperor says, 'is not pleased by blood -- and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats.'" And, the pontiff even condemned violent jihad, or "holy war."

Note that the pope, in a very lengthy speech critical of the growing secularization of the West, devoted only three paragraphs to the subject of jihad. Moreover, the pope repeatedly said that those words were not his own. And later, the Vatican said the pope intended only to spark dialogue, and that the emperor's words in no way reflected the thoughts of the pope himself.

How did some adherents to the religion of peace react?

Angry riots, death threats, burning of the pope in effigy, and demands for an apology.

Somali Muslims shot an Italian nun who worked in a Somali hospital. They shot her four times in the back as she left the hospital, and as she lay dying on the ground, she muttered in Italian to her killers, "I forgive, I forgive."

Firebombs were hurled at seven churches during one weekend in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. One group demanded a televised apology, or they would blow up all of Gaza's churches.

As usual, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a "moderate" pro-Arab organization, condemned the pope's words, but not the violent reaction to them.

The deputy leader of the Turkish prime minister's party said, "He is going down in history in the same category as leaders such as Hitler and Mussolini."

Al Qaeda in Iraq issued this death threat, "You infidels and despots, we will continue our jihad and never stop until God avails us to chop your necks and raise the fluttering banner of monotheism when God's rule is established governing all people and nations. . . . [The cross-worshipper pope] and the West are doomed. . . . We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose the jizya [non-Muslim] tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion [to Islam] or [being killed by] the sword."

Following this violent reaction, the pope, at his weekly Angelus blessing this past Sunday, used the word "sorry." Sorry, that is, for the violent reaction to his words. Still, the pope refused to retract his statements. And why should he? After all, the violent reaction proved his point in ways the pope's words never could.

Now, what about stateside? Editorials in two major American newspapers criticized -- the pope! In an editorial chastising the pope for alleged insensitivity, the Los Angeles Times said, "The pope shouldn't be quoting people who call [Islam] 'evil.'" The editorial concluded, " . . . [P]opes need to watch their words when they have political consequences."

Calling the pope a "doctrinal conservative," The New York Times said, " . . . [H]is greatest fear appears to be the loss of a uniform Catholic identity, not exactly the best jumping-off point for tolerance or interfaith dialogue. The world listens carefully to the words of any pope. And it is tragic and dangerous when one sows pain, either deliberately or carelessly."

So this is where we are. The people behind the publication of the "offensive" Danish cartoons fear being seen in public, lest they suffer the fate of filmmaker Theo van Gogh. Van Gogh, a descendant of the painter Vincent van Gogh, made a film that criticized Islam's treatment of women. Authorities found him shot and stabbed to death, and a five-page manifesto declaring holy war pinned to his chest with the same knife used to stab him.

An Iranian newspaper recently sponsored a "contest" asking for submissions of anti-Semitic holocaust-denying cartoons. One showed the Statue of Liberty holding a book on the Holocaust in one hand and giving a Nazi-style salute with the other. The reaction? No Jews rioted, no Jews committed kidnappings, no Jews engaged in beheadings. Meanwhile, the web site TheReligionofPeace.com records deadly terror attacks committed by Islamofacists since 9/11/2001. The tally, as of this writing, stands at 5,870.

So there you have it. The West, says the pope, pursues reason without faith -- and Westerners failed to riot. But when the pope accuses Islam of pursuing faith without reason -- Islamofascists demand an apology . . . or else.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/uc/larry_eld...0922&printer=1

I like the point made about the nun who was murdered, shot four times in the back. There was more outrage at the pope regarded the statements, from both Islam, and the west in general, then the coward fucks who murdered an old missionary. The sensitivity police are really starting to piss me off.

I also checked out that the religionofpeace.com. Some interesting stuff there, perhaps a tad intense. According to there counter the number of deadly terrorist attacks since 9/11 from Islamofacists is at 5,923.

pan6467 · 09-26-2006, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Really? WWI was because of Christianity? How about 2? How about Nazi'ism? How about Stalin? How about Mao? How about Pol-Pot? How about the millions killed by the Huns, how about the Mongols, how about the Vikings? how about all the cities decimated by Rome? How about the hundreds of Chinese civil wars? How about the genocides in Africa?

Dont spew lies like that and expect us to swallow it.

WW2 yes, Hitler was able to do what he did to Jews and "liberal thinkers" because he sold to the German people a vision of the master race which was in part Christian.

The Huns, Vikings and Mongols killed millions????? Hmmmm didn't know that, considering during those times there weren't that many people on Earth. They were after land but their religion never came into play.

Rome did not decimate cities, they laid siege and if necessary did battle them, but in the end they would make peace treaties with those cities stating Rome would protect them, but allowed those cities their freedom of religions.

What about Manifest destiny, the tribes in North America, South America, the Polynesians, the Africans, the Indian sub continent, China during the European imperialistic/ colonial age?

Not lies, facts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

Pan, I get your point but all your examples are hundreds of years ago, some several centuries. We should of course be concerned about what religious fanatics of all stripes are up to but the biggest threat to civilians today is from Islamic extremists. You are right, I have no true knowledge of these religions other than what is reported in the papers and news shows telling us who the terrorists are after an attack.

True, Christianity doesn't promote the violence it once did, nor have wars between the denominations it had when they were all forming.

But, if we look at the history of how the churches ruled the areas, the militant structure based on religion, the "we must kill or convert" thinking that was prevelant in those times, we find the same thinking now.

Perhaps, it is a part of religion's aging that accepts violence, hatred, prejudices in order to convert more. Fear, jealousy, prejudice work wonders in keeping a population suppressed into a controlled belief.

Watching how "Christians" will bomb abortion clinics, form groups like the KKK, tell people how to vote, form prejudices and hate groups in "His name" and so on, yes those are extreme examples, but we don't hear Pat Robertson speaking out on abortion clinic bombings, burning crosses and so on, do we?

So why do we expect every Imam to speak out against their extremists?

Especially when religion can be a great tool for power and control.

Mojo_PeiPei · 09-26-2006, 07:32 AM

Ah, yes the Hitler was christian/used it to motivate his final solution. What don't you ask the polish catholics, or hell, any catholics of the region how Hitler treated them.

Seaver · 09-26-2006, 08:44 AM

Quote:

WW2 yes, Hitler was able to do what he did to Jews and "liberal thinkers" because he sold to the German people a vision of the master race which was in part Christian.

Really? We're taught in Christianity there are master races? Point that out in the Bible.

Quote:

The Huns, Vikings and Mongols killed millions????? Hmmmm didn't know that, considering during those times there weren't that many people on Earth. They were after land but their religion never came into play.

There weren't that many people on Earth? Are you serious? One city alone had over 2 million... yet there were not many people alive.

Mongols killed between 200,000 to a million people IN ONE CITY when they took Baghdad. But dont forget when they took all of China, massacred everyone in Semirechye, estimated massacre of 1.5 million inhabitants of Khwarazmian Empire, conquoring of Korea, Northern India, and the areas above the Caspean and Black Seas.

The Huns? Read up on Aquileia and why it no longer exists (Hint: Used to be the Jewel of N. Italy)

Quote:

They were after land but their religion never came into play.

Actually their religion DID come into play. The Mongols believed that life in the afterlife depended on the successes of one's life. The Vikings believed that dying in battle was the only way into Valhalla. The Huns believed in the prophecy of Atilla's sword, which was granted by one of their Gods.

Quote:

Ah, yes the Hitler was christian/used it to motivate his final solution. What don't you ask the polish catholics, or hell, any catholics of the region how Hitler treated them.

Thank you. If anything Hitler was Pagan. The rituals for their SS were taken from pagan rituals and symbols. While very few shared with Christianity, if you can show me where Christian symbols were used go ahead (and not the Iron Cross, that belonged as a symbol of Germany for millenia).

Infinite_Loser · 09-26-2006, 11:43 AM

Every major religion has had it's "Dark Days", so to speak.

I believe the point here is that Islam is one of the only religions to explicitly advocate violence towards people of differing backgrounds; It's either convert or die. Most of the other mainstream religions advocate peace before violence and don't seem to take a hard of a stand against people of differing religions (Though, in the Old Testament, God did command the Jews to completely destroy the pagans).

Baraka_Guru · 09-26-2006, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Every major religion has had it's "Dark Days", so to speak.

I've read arguments that suggest the Islamic world is going through the early stages of a religious reformation, not unlike the Protestant Reformation of Europe.

Mojo_PeiPei · 09-26-2006, 08:07 PM

What sucks is the reformation seems to be going backwards, more countries with Sharian law are popping up, not going away.

pan6467 · 09-26-2006, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Really? We're taught in Christianity there are master races? Point that out in the Bible.

I believe I stated he used it to sell his persecutions.

Quote:

There weren't that many people on Earth? Are you serious? One city alone had over 2 million... yet there were not many people alive.

Yes, I am very serious and show me in the history books where a city of 2 million was taken out completely (every living person) pre-nuke. Actually show me a City (not a region, not a country) where there were 2 million people living before 1800.

Quote:

Mongols killed between 200,000 to a million people IN ONE CITY when they took Baghdad. But dont forget when they took all of China, massacred everyone in Semirechye, estimated massacre of 1.5 million inhabitants of Khwarazmian Empire, conquoring of Korea, Northern India, and the areas above the Caspean and Black Seas.

You have proof, let me see the history books can I have a link? As a former history major, I would be very interested in seeing this as I have never even heard of this.

Quote:

The Huns? Read up on Aquileia and why it no longer exists (Hint: Used to be the Jewel of N. Italy)

Really, and there were 2 Million in this city also?

Quote:

Actually their religion DID come into play. The Mongols believed that life in the afterlife depended on the successes of one's life. The Vikings believed that dying in battle was the only way into Valhalla. The Huns believed in the prophecy of Atilla's sword, which was granted by one of their Gods.

I'll grant you that.

Quote:

Thank you. If anything Hitler was Pagan. The rituals for their SS were taken from pagan rituals and symbols. While very few shared with Christianity, if you can show me where Christian symbols were used go ahead (and not the Iron Cross, that belonged as a symbol of Germany for millenia).

I did not say Hitler or the leaders was doing it in the name of Christianity, they sold the idea it was being done in the name of Christianity. And yes, he killed the Catholics too, because they were not "part of the Christian master race" he "envisioned".

And no, Hitler nor the leaders were Pagan.

I am not going to argue this anymore, my point obviously was lost. My point is that Christianity went through their time of "convert or die" terrorism and violence (and the differing denominations did it also). So we cannot blame nor condemn Islam as a whole, as some people seem to be doing.

When we have our "church" leaders appologize for abortion clinic bombings, the KKK, burning crosses, manifest destiny, and so on, then I'll expect an appology from the other religious leaders.

Until then, I see organized religion for what it is, a way to control masses by fear and to gain power by promising a better life on "the other side".

Seaver · 09-27-2006, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Yes, I am very serious and show me in the history books where a city of 2 million was taken out completely (every living person) pre-nuke. Actually show me a City (not a region, not a country) where there were 2 million people living before 1800.

Ok, 1 million in Ancient Rome. And London had a population of 1 million in the 1800 census.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baghdad_(1258)

Quote:

Ian Frazier of The New Yorker says estimates of the death toll have ranged from 200,000 to a million.

pan6467 · 09-27-2006, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Ok, 1 million in Ancient Rome. And London had a population of 1 million in the 1800 census.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baghdad_(1258)

Thank you for the link it was an interesting read, I do appreciate it.

dc_dux · 09-27-2006, 02:22 PM

Accoding to one Congresswoman, Marilyn Musgrave, the culture war is not with muslim extremism.... the greatest battle we face today is with gay marriage:

I believe that when you’re in a cultural war like this, you have to respond with equal and hopefully greater force if you want to win this battle. But this battle is the most important issue that we face today, and what an honor it has been to serve in the United States Congress and carry the Marriage Amendment.

Last time, we were 54 votes short in this legislative session. That’s 9 votes more than we had last year. But there is much work to be done. So I hope that you will realize how high the stakes are. The future is grim unless we do what we need to do to win this battle. We need to elect people to positions of authority in the states and in the United States Congress, and we need to fight the good fight for our children and our grandchildren. Thank you very much

I only added this because I think the respective histories and messages of Islam and Christianity have been played out pretty well here and are on the verge of becoming repetitive.

Seaver · 09-27-2006, 07:54 PM

http://www.gulfnews.com/world/Spain/10070077.html

Looks like some people are finally speaking up. The PM of Spain simply states the truth that no one bats an eye when Muslims demand extermination of entire races and never apologizes. Yet when the Pope quotes a long dead leader everyone on both sides is up in arms.

Quote:

Aznar defends Pope's remarks

Agencies

Madrid: Jose Maria Aznar, former Spanish prime minister, defended Pope Benedict XVI’s comments about Islam, saying on Friday the pontiff had no need to apologise and asking why Muslims never did. the Spanish media said yesterday.

“Why do we always have to say sorry and they never do?” Aznar told a conference in Washington on “global threats” on Friday.

On Saturday, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso was quoted as saying that more European leaders should have spoken out in support of the Pope after he made his disputed comments on Islam.

"I was disappointed there were not more European leaders who said 'naturally the Pope has the right to express his views'," Barroso was quoted as saying to the Welt am Sonntag newspaper.

"The problem is not the statements of the Pope but the reaction of the extremists," the paper quoted him as saying.

Referring to the Moorish conquest of much of the Iberian Peninsula from the eighth to the 15th century, Aznar said: “It is interesting to note that while a lot of people in the world are asking the Pope to apologise for his speech, I have never heard a Muslim say sorry for having conquered Spain and occupying it for eight centuries.”

Aznar, who was the Prime Minister from 1996 to 2004, took Spain into the American-led war in Iraq, against massive public opposition.

Addressing Friday’s conference in Washington on “global threats”, Aznar said: “We are living in a time of war ... It’s them or us. The West did not attack Islam, it was they who attacked us.”

“We must face up to an Islam that is ambitious, that is radical and that influences the Muslim world, a fundamentalist Islam that we must confront because we don’t have any choice.

“We are constantly under attack and we must defend ourselves,” he said.

“I support Ferdinand and Isabella,” he proclaimed, in reference to the medieval Catholic monarchs who drove the Moors out of Spain in 1492.

Barroso said the caution on the part of European leaders was probably due to "worries about a possible confrontation" as well as a "certain form of political correctness."

"We have to defend our values," he said. "We should also encourage the moderate leaders in the Muslim world - and they're the majority - to distance themselves from this extremism," Barroso was quoted as saying.

Meanwhile,the Pope is due to meet Muslim envoys on Monday as part of a diplomaticc initiative to boost inter-faith dialogue.

The meeting is to be held at Castel Gandolfo, the Pope's summer residence.

fik · 09-29-2006, 05:12 PM

Wow, sounds like the Middle-ages and the crusades all over again. The human race is so stupid.

09-24-2006, 09:45 PM	#89 (permalink)
Infinite_Loser Junkie Location: Lake Mary, FL	Even if the majority of Muslims aren't beligerent, they're sure as hell outspoken by the number of them who are (And they really don't seem to care, either). I've not exactly seen many Muslims jump up in protest when their leaders advocate death to the West and its allies; In fact, you see just the opposite. Meh... Does anyone remember the pictures of the Saudis and Sudanese clapping, jumping for joy, burning the American flag and shouting "Death to America!" and "Praise be to Allah!" when they received the news regarding 9/11? That sort of stuff doesn't help Muslims win any friends. And, before someone says it, I'm in no way stating that all Muslims are war-mongering. Even if it's not the mainstream way of thinking, you'd never know as every day you turn on the TV or read the newspaper or look at an article on the internet you see another Islamic ruler preaching hate for people's and/or their religions. Ironically enough, the same leaders seem to be popular within the Islamic community. __________________ I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me. Last edited by Infinite_Loser; 09-24-2006 at 09:47 PM..

09-25-2006, 05:03 AM	#92 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	if we were to apply to christianity the "logic" of ustwo and seaver's attempts to "prove" that islam is a violent religion , we would be wondering why all christians do rituals involving the handling of poisonous snakes---or we would be trying to "prove" using a range of quotes ripped out of context that the inquisition is the adequate expression of the entirety of christian doctrine---we could read various half-baked websites that quote aquinas, snip fragments from sections of the "summa" that try to determine the line between heretic and unbeliever and from there try to "demonstrate" that christianity is "spread by the sword".. these really are absurd claims you are pursuing. to wax charitable for a minute, let's assume that the problem is logical: the response: arguments from essence are stupid, lads. they dont get you anywhere: they explain nothing, they illuminate nothing. if we are not so charitable, the question of motivation becomes ugly indeed: this because i see little difference between the kind of arguments they are pursuing above and those you see in the protocols of the elders of zion that attempt to "prove" the "evils" of judaism. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-25-2006, 06:10 AM	#94 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	seaver: the argument i advanced pertained to the posts in this thread. they refer to the symbiotic relation between your posts and those of a much lesser quality from ustwo. it is a response to reading the posts the two of you put here. i saw no need to make more general arguments--and if you do not understand the basis for the post i made, read through the thread yourself and you'll see it. try for a minute to adopt the viewpoint of someone who had not read the thread for several days and returned to it, reading the posts one after the other. sometimes a thread provides an unsettling context for the individual views presented in it. i think that is the case in this one. i tried not to reach around and impute particular motives to you in particular in this case, seaver. but i found the tack you and ustwo were developing, taken together, to be at the least problematic. but read through the thread one post after another as i did ad you'll see what i was reacting to, i think. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-25-2006, 08:33 AM	#96 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	The Pew Research Center realeased the results of a a survey last year: Islamic Extremism: Common Concern for Muslim and Western Publics Support for Terror Wanes Among Muslim Publics Among the results : Support for acts of terrorism in defense of Islam has declined dramatically among Muslims in most predominantly Muslim countries surveyed, although support has risen in Jordan. And while support for suicide bombings against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq remains at higher levels, it too has declined substantially among Muslim publics in all four countries with trend comparisons available, including Jordan. In Turkey support for suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets in order to defend Islam from its enemies was already low compared to other majority-Muslim publics and has remained stable with just 14% of the public saying such actions are often or sometimes justified. In Indonesia only 15% now see terrorism as justified at least sometimes, down from 27% in summer 2002. In Pakistan, 25% now take that view, also a substantial decline from the 41% level to which support had risen in March 2004, while iin Morocco support has fallen dramatically, from 40% to 13% over the last year. Concerns over Islamic extremism, extensive in the West even before this month's terrorist attacks in London, are shared to a considerable degree by the publics in several predominantly Muslim nations surveyed. Nearly three-quarters of Moroccans and roughly half of those in Pakistan, Turkey and Indonesia see Islamic extremism as a threat to their countries. At the same time, most Muslim publics are expressing less support for terrorism than in the past. Confidence in Osama bin Laden has declined markedly in some countries and fewer believe suicide bombings that target civilians are justified in the defense of Islam. http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=248 * There are some troubling results as well, which if taken as a whole is reason for the US and western allies to better understand the range of perceptions and concerns among muslims around the world. Most of all, we should avoid stereotypes and generalizations about the "face of Islam" and majority support for terrorism among the muslim populations. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 09-25-2006 at 08:41 AM..

09-25-2006, 08:57 AM	#97 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Let's see, more people have died in wars sparked in the name of Christianity than all other reasons combined. The Spanish Inquisition, Queen Elizabeth in England who killed off as many Catholics in England as she could, the burning of "witches", the slavery in early America practiced by this vast "true to Christian values and morals" nation we had, and let us not forget how we had to spread Christianity to the heathens.... and if they wouldn't give up their religion we then decided to kill them or enslave them..... Cortez's conquistidors, the Native Americans, the Polynesians, and so on. And in all those killings and slaveries and conquests, someone was able to pull out a New Testament (since we are now no longer just saying "Bible' and we have to seperate the books) and point to where they were right in their violence and descration of human rights. So for anyone to sit there and claim Christianity is not as violent nor as manipulated by its leaders, is prejudicial bullshit. But I do love these people who have no true knowledge of a religion, taking what their political party, the media and others who just make prejudicial claims and treat them as "gospel". BTW, if one stays true to Christ's teachings, yes it is a very non-violent, very nonjudgemental religion. But it is when you follow the leaders who turn what was said into what they want, and for their own gains that it is violent and used in name only. Kinda sounds like Islam doesn't it? __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 09-25-2006 at 09:00 AM..

09-24-2006, 08:25 AM	#82 (permalink)
MINCKEN Upright Location: HOUSTON	I use Herman’s explination to Gilbert to illustrate yesterday, today and tomorrow. Both here and abroad. Religious, Political and Rio Grande. Later in the conversation, Gilbert recorded Goering's observations that the common people can always be manipulated into supporting and fighting wars by their political leaders: We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction. "Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship." "There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars." "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." "Religion is like farts...yours is good, but everybody else's stinks."

09-24-2006, 10:41 PM	#91 (permalink)
hiredgun Addict	Seaver, the vast majority of imams denounce terrorism and violence. That is my experience over many dozens of mosques in both the US and the Muslim world. If you think that the number of Islamic religious figures who do not advocate violence is small, then you are simply, utterly, factually wrong.

09-25-2006, 11:56 AM	#98 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	Pan, I get your point but all your examples are hundreds of years ago, some several centuries. We should of course be concerned about what religious fanatics of all stripes are up to but the biggest threat to civilians today is from Islamic extremists. You are right, I have no true knowledge of these religions other than what is reported in the papers and news shows telling us who the terrorists are after an attack.

09-26-2006, 07:32 AM	#102 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Ah, yes the Hitler was christian/used it to motivate his final solution. What don't you ask the polish catholics, or hell, any catholics of the region how Hitler treated them. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

09-26-2006, 11:43 AM	#104 (permalink)
Infinite_Loser Junkie Location: Lake Mary, FL	Every major religion has had it's "Dark Days", so to speak. I believe the point here is that Islam is one of the only religions to explicitly advocate violence towards people of differing backgrounds; It's either convert or die. Most of the other mainstream religions advocate peace before violence and don't seem to take a hard of a stand against people of differing religions (Though, in the Old Testament, God did command the Jews to completely destroy the pagans). __________________ I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

09-26-2006, 08:07 PM	#106 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	What sucks is the reformation seems to be going backwards, more countries with Sharian law are popping up, not going away. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

09-27-2006, 02:22 PM	#110 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	Accoding to one Congresswoman, Marilyn Musgrave, the culture war is not with muslim extremism.... the greatest battle we face today is with gay marriage: I believe that when you’re in a cultural war like this, you have to respond with equal and hopefully greater force if you want to win this battle. But this battle is the most important issue that we face today, and what an honor it has been to serve in the United States Congress and carry the Marriage Amendment. Last time, we were 54 votes short in this legislative session. That’s 9 votes more than we had last year. But there is much work to be done. So I hope that you will realize how high the stakes are. The future is grim unless we do what we need to do to win this battle. We need to elect people to positions of authority in the states and in the United States Congress, and we need to fight the good fight for our children and our grandchildren. Thank you very much I only added this because I think the respective histories and messages of Islam and Christianity have been played out pretty well here and are on the verge of becoming repetitive. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 09-27-2006 at 02:47 PM..

09-29-2006, 05:12 PM	#112 (permalink)
fik Crazy Location: Tacoma, WA	Wow, sounds like the Middle-ages and the crusades all over again. The human race is so stupid.