The 14 Characteristics of Fascism - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Sun Tzu · 09-08-2006, 10:01 AM

Quote:

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.

5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

6. A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses.

7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.

9. Power of corporations protected. Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.

14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.

Does any of this ring alarm bells? Of course not. After all, this is America, officially a democracy with the rule of law, a constitution, a free press, honest elections, and a well-informed public constantly being put on guard against evils. Historical comparisons like these are just exercises in verbal gymnastics.

Dr. Laurence Britt

There is more than one source you can find this article at, so if you differ in view from this link you will be able to find in other places or local libraries.

http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/...ics-of-fascism

Some associates of mine are having problems with their employer; the government. I was trying to find article on corporate cronyism when I came across this article. I'm going to research classical definitions and or criteria of what it is to make sure that this gentleman didnt inventory what his views are on current America and bestow the title as common acceptance.

Personally I'm not calling the US Republic a fascist state, we have "We the People" to prevent that ever happening; right?

roachboy · 09-08-2006, 11:08 AM

the only thing that is left out of the above is the importance of the "state of exception" or "state of emergency" as a legal device that is used to implement/extend the other areas.
in pre-nazi germany, the main legal theorist of the "state of exception" and its correlate in dictatorship was crl schmitt.
to my ongoing shock, the central figure behind many of the bush administration's legal arguments about executive power and its unlimited extendability is also carl schmitt.

in european versions of fascism, the center of support for it came from the petit bourgeois sectors, who were the prime demographic behind the populist blood-and-soil ideology central to the regime.
thise petit bourgeois support was critical in legitimating the suppression of the left (in italy and in germany)---in less fully implemented types of fascism, like poujadisme in france during the 50s (the precursor of the front national) it was once again the petit bourgeois that was the main audience for almost all the arguments outlined in the op.

now i am not going to say that bushworld is fascist.
it just kinda looks like it.

the main difference so far are the obstacles that the bushpeople's claims based on the "state or emergency" or "state of exception" have encountered, the limits that have shaped how far these have been able to go--they have not been and with any luck will not be adequately powerful to enable a total bypassing of the legistative branch (which schmitt called weak and indecisive--too committed to debate to make "decisions"--not endowed with the "power" of the "decisionmaker")--but it is fairly obvious that the bush-cheney folk would prefer these limits not exist....

we'll see what the near future brings.

in my more paranoid moments, i worry a bit about what could happen if the republicans loose control of congress in november--between the elections and january. who knows. maybe a war being launched against iran...

but i remain basically a bit pollyanna.

Daniel_ · 09-08-2006, 11:24 AM

Is it the SAME Carl Schmitt, or just an alarming co-incidence of names? If it't the same one, he must be almost 100!

Willravel · 09-08-2006, 11:25 AM

Damn. Thatm article is too big to be my signature.

This is a facinating artucle that has been in circulation for some time. I've read it quite a few times, and I use it as a guide. I consider it to be reliable (I've not seen anyone in here actually argue with any of the 14 points).

I think it is something everyone should bear in mind when monitoring our democracy.

Ustwo · 09-08-2006, 11:26 AM

Left wing accademic - check
Selling anti-Bush book - check
Writes a list in order to fit what the left sees as the current climate and create a buzz prior to publishing book - check

Taking the list at face value as an accademic work - Priceless.

Bonus Irony - Fascism is a left wing ideology, to dumb it down, its 'big government'.

Edit:having a hard time doing any additional research as the vast majority of the hits seem to be from left wing bloggers, often just cut and pasting the same article. Explains maybe why the book is no longer available on Amazon.

stevo · 09-08-2006, 11:31 AM

hasn't this list been posted on here before?

roachboy · 09-08-2006, 12:30 PM

here are some biographical tidbits and a bit more on schmitt.

http://www.generation-online.org/p/pschmitt.htm

the more you read him, the more you see the influence on john yoo, gonzalez et al.

ustwo: if you "dumb down" the list as far as you manage to, you"dumb it down" to the level of meaninglessness--which does nto surprise me in general, but almost every time you do it in particular, it does. this time, you really manage to say almost nothing at all. like there is a contest that only you are playing in.

stevo: the general discussion has happened before, but not based on this particular list of features. i have listed some before, and they were close to those in the op. if i remember, they got about the same kind of responses from the conservative set that this one is getting.

stevo · 09-08-2006, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

stevo: the general discussion has happened before, but not based on this particular list of features. i have listed some before, and they were close to those in the op. if i remember, they got about the same kind of responses from the conservative set that this one is getting.

you aren't really suprised, are you?

Seaver · 09-08-2006, 12:52 PM

Yay, it's 4 months since a thread declared Bush or Neo-Cons as Hitler and the SS!

Yall made your quota for this quarter.

Ustwo · 09-08-2006, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Yay, it's 4 months since a thread declared Bush or Neo-Cons as Hitler and the SS!

Yall made your quota for this quarter.

Now if you all excuse me I need to be attending my neocon-bund meeting.

Elphaba · 09-08-2006, 01:01 PM

Thanks for the post, Sun Tzu. A friend and I started tracking the 14 characteristics a few years ago and then we found the site linked below. Specific articles are linked that are representative of each characteristic of facism, and you can judge for yourself how applicable you think they are. We also have a list of things that Bush wants but hasn't gotten yet.

14 Examples

Ustwo · 09-08-2006, 01:14 PM

You know, I'm working for a living here, I post when I get a break, so my mind isn't always 100% on the posts, so I am a bit embarassed that it took so long to figure out this point.

Based on that list, the US has always been and always will be a fascist government.

Name a time in US history where those 'points' weren't so, or at least claimed to be by some people. I double dog dare you.

roachboy · 09-08-2006, 01:51 PM

you know, there is an interesting conversation to be had about this.

typically, anytime there is an interesting conversation to be had about something that makes the tfp-right uncomfortable, they seem to work to bury the thread beneath a pile of ill-considered quips, irrelevant material, wortheless asides--anything and everything except consider the question at hand and perhaps even take the time to think about the questions that are raised.

it happens every fucking time: steaming mounds of ill-considered, half baked rightwing idiocy seems to be all that the ustwo sqaud can contribute to any thread--whether they agree or not, it is always the same.

it is ALWAYS the same.
it is always the same here.

it is always the same.
no matter what the topic, it is always the same.

it is always the same.

agree or not agree, what you see from the ustwo squad never fucking changes.
no matter the situation, it is always the fucking same.

there is husky hair moving around my apartment.
i am going to go watch it.
it HAS to be more interesting than this.

Ch'i · 09-08-2006, 02:05 PM

Quote:

You know, I'm working for a living here, I post when I get a break, so my mind isn't always 100% on the posts, so I am a bit embarassed that it took so long to figure out this point.

That explains alot.

Quote:

Name a time in US history where those 'points' weren't so, or at least claimed to be by some people. I double dog dare you.

Ok. How about 1776.

Seaver · 09-08-2006, 02:38 PM

Quote:

typically, anytime there is an interesting conversation to be had about something that makes the tfp-right uncomfortable, they seem to work to bury the thread beneath a pile of ill-considered quips, irrelevant material, wortheless asides--anything and everything except consider the question at hand and perhaps even take the time to think about the questions that are raised.

This does not make me uncomfterble, it does not hope to spark a debate. The question at hand is whether or not we are in a fascist state. The answer is no. Bush is going to leave office in 2008. There will be an election and the people will decide. There might be a few random instances of voter fraud, but those have occured in every election in history. Those involved will deal with the reprocussions.

You honestly think the media (#6) is under control of Bush? I'm sure you'll state Fox News, but to claim the other thousands of news stations are pro-Bush is ubsurd.

If Bush does not leave office in 2008 then you have a point.

Oh, and Ch'i it was MUCH more similar in 1776 than today. Sexism was obvious. Crime and punishment was handed out without trial to loyalists and natives, both served as scapegoats. Flags of defiance flew in all towns uncontrolled by the British. Mass media was controlled by the rebels, as any pro-British paper owner was tarred and feathered. Cronyism and corruption were everywhere, as only the rich male landowners could hold office. And the majority of these were Free Masons together. Elections were always ridden with false votes. And the rights of free traders (corporations) were sought so much that it was a large reason for the revolution in the first place. National security threats were obviously large because of war with the British and Indian tribes. The power of labor was non-existant. There you go, we were nazi before the nazis according to this.

Oh yeah, heil bush or whatever.

Sun Tzu · 09-08-2006, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Left wing accademic - check
Selling anti-Bush book - check
Writes a list in order to fit what the left sees as the current climate and create a buzz prior to publishing book - check

Taking the list at face value as an accademic work - Priceless.

Bonus Irony - Fascism is a left wing ideology, to dumb it down, its 'big government'.

Edit:having a hard time doing any additional research as the vast majority of the hits seem to be from left wing bloggers, often just cut and pasting the same article. Explains maybe why the book is no longer available on Amazon.

I consider myself to be neither left or right. The parties remind me to two football teams. It really doesnt matter who wins or loses; the NFL still get paid either way. Ironically I voted for Bush the first time, I didnt like where Gore was going with censorship among other things. I didnt vote for him a second time.

Whats with the agenda commentary? Again similiar to what Ive stated else where voicing an opinion could be an agenda, and agenda to sway one to anothers belief. Does that begin to kind turn into a form of paranoia. Its obvious here that man doesnt like Bush. Or is it that he does not like the ACTIONS that have taken place.

Surely this cant all boil down to because certain people wants tax brackets adjusted and are pro-choice they are seeing Bush as an evil tyrant bent on a self-fulling prophecy. I agree on alot of what the old conservative party was for. I agree on the civil liberty the democrats promote. They both fall short and have both had representatives do things I dont think the populus unified as a whole would agree with. People voice opinions through commentary. I guess every action could be seen as an agenda. Like Im getting up now with an agenda to go rock climbing.

Let me ask you are you a fan of Dennis Miller?

Marvelous Marv · 09-08-2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch'i

Ok. How about 1776.

Seems to fit the criteria quite well. Oh, and there's that little slavery thing to boot.

Sun Tzu · 09-08-2006, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

hasn't this list been posted on here before?

I always do a title search before posting a new thread and it did not appear. It is possible it may have as a response. It which case I didnt know it woulndt be my intention to repeat this, Im starting to regret I posted this one.

I honestly posted it for 1. clarification on defining whether this man followed classical criteria or redifined the norm 2. civil commentary on how the points are correct or no.

Ustwo- I think I misread your reply. After reading it again you were simply answering what you thought his definition is in your own way.

Willravel · 09-08-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Yay, it's 4 months since a thread declared Bush or Neo-Cons as Hitler and the SS!

Yall made your quota for this quarter.

Remember when posts used to have content? Yeah, me neither.

Ustwo · 09-08-2006, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch'i

T Ok. How about 1776.

Couldn't be a more wrong answer but thats been outlined already.

Willravel · 09-08-2006, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Name a time in US history where those 'points' weren't so, or at least claimed to be by some people. I double dog dare you.

Just so we're clear, I think the article suggests that when you see many of those points becoming more prevelant, that might be time to pay better attention. I'm sure at least one of those points exists in some way or another anywhere in the world. It's when they combine that they creat camptian facism.

Ustwo · 09-08-2006, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Just so we're clear, I think the article suggests that when you see many of those points becoming more prevelant, that might be time to pay better attention. I'm sure at least one of those points exists in some way or another anywhere in the world. It's when they combine that they creat camptian facism.

So you mean this is the worst in terms of the magic, 14 points in US history?

Elphaba · 09-08-2006, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I always do a title search before posting a new thread and it did not appear. It is possible it may have as a response. It which case I didnt know it woulndt be my intention to repeat this, Im starting to regret I posted this one.

I honestly posted it for 1. clarification on defining whether this man followed classical criteria or redifined the norm 2. civil commentary on how the points are correct or no.

Sun Tzu, Stevo failed to mention that the search function is broken so take his comment with the singular grain of salt that it deserves.

The author's criteria are generally considered to be an accurate definition of fascism. Applying these 14 characteristics, typical of the politics of Germany and Italy in the 30's and 40's, to the politics of the current Bush administration is a worthy topic of discussion. Of course, one must be capable of an open mind and have a desire to discuss controversial points of view.

I'm liking roachboy's designation of the "ustwo squad". Like preteen girls, they always appear in a pack and have little to offer to an adult conversation.

Seaver · 09-08-2006, 06:47 PM

Quote:

I'm liking roachboy's designation of the "ustwo squad". Like preteen girls, they always appear in a pack and have little to offer to an adult conversation.

Like my argument how you can pick any time period and this list can make itself fit? Oh wait that was ignored.

Elphaba · 09-08-2006, 06:54 PM

It was *your* point. Support it yourself. Sheesh, how simple does it have to be for a decent discussion from y'all?

Ustwo · 09-08-2006, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

I'm liking roachboy's designation of the "ustwo squad". Like preteen girls, they always appear in a pack and have little to offer to an adult conversation.

I ignore most of roachboys insults due to a desire to only read properly formatted posts but I do get them when quoted. Elphaba I wouldn't go down the insult route if I were you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

It was *your* point. Support it yourself. Sheesh, how simple does it have to be for a decent discussion from y'all?

We aren't calling the government fascist, it is not up to us to defend a silly claim by some academic which is easily refuted by anyone with even a slight education in US history. Its more up to the side who thinks it to prove it. So far, you aren't doing so well.

Its kinda like posting a truth out article and expecting us to accept its basic premise before being able to 'discuss' it. Sound familiar to you? You have dragged this thread into *snippiness* again, something you seem to excel at without adding much of your own.

Elphaba · 09-08-2006, 07:03 PM

Reread the OP, u2. Perhaps that will be of help in correcting your perception.

Lady Sage · 09-08-2006, 07:06 PM

I am not much of one to stick my nose into politics for I know I would get into trouble. However, this thread is SO funny right now I think I shall go make a bag of popcorn, grab some fruit punch and enjoy a good laugh or 5.

Elphaba · 09-08-2006, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Sage

I am not much of one to stick my nose into politics for I know I would get into trouble. However, this thread is SO funny right now I think I shall go make a bag of popcorn, grab some fruit punch and enjoy a good laugh or 5.

Welcome to Politics, sweet Lady. Try to restrain yourself, if at all possible. Snorting fruit punch through your nose is *very* unlady like.

Lady Sage · 09-08-2006, 07:16 PM

I shall do my best. I am sure the small post I made above will bring myself under an interesting bit of name calling and finger pointing. After all that is what it seems these threads are all about here. Who can call the best names and insult the best without getting banned. Why cant people respect the opinions of others.

Everyone is right in their own mind.

Eventually the term will end and this will all have been a nightmare over for some or the reign of perfetion coming to end for others. Its all a matter of perception.

Elphaba · 09-08-2006, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Everyone is right in their own mind.

I want to see 14 references to prove this statement. Are you sure you didn't mean to say "everyone in not in their right mind?"

Pass the popcorn, please.

Willravel · 09-08-2006, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

So you mean this is the worst in terms of the magic, 14 points in US history?

I'm afraid I honestly don't know what you're asking. These 14 points are not magic, but are obviously based mostly on the emergence of facism in Europe. Oh, and it's not a Godwin if you're actually talking about Nazis. I don't know which of the 14 is worst, and if I did make a determination it would only be my opinion. Which is your favorite?

dc_dux · 09-08-2006, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Everyone is right in their own mind.

My mind is leftist most of the time .

I am new here, but as to the name calling, I would suggest civility begets civility.

Lady Sage · 09-08-2006, 07:37 PM

Welcome to TFP dc. Not everyone calls names. For the most part we are a peace loving bunch of people from various backgrounds who like to have fun. Of course there are always those...... that put the FUN in dysfunctional.

I see many valid points in the above list of 14 in the way the world today is. It makes me sad that tis come to this in places. On the plus side though, it helps us know what we need to start doing to prevent such thigns in the future.

Willravel · 09-08-2006, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

I am new here, but as to the name calling, I would suggest civility begets civility.

The force is strong with this one.

djtestudo · 09-08-2006, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

My mind is leftist most of the time .

I am new here, but as to the name calling, I would suggest civility begets civility.

Then you are DEFINITELY new here, at least to Politics

As for that list, I don't have time right now but looking through it I think I could EASILY make it fit to several parts of American history.

Just have to remember to do it tomorrow

Seaver · 09-08-2006, 10:17 PM

I already did dj, dont bother you'll just be ignored too.

Ch'i · 09-08-2006, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch'i
T Ok. How about 1776.

Couldn't be a more wrong answer but thats been outlined already.

Wow what a misquote! I said "Ok. How about 1776", not "T Ok. How about 1776." That could cause some serious trouble.

pan6467 · 09-08-2006, 11:03 PM

This is why I don't post in politics anymore.... or very rarely do I post.

I see nothing but attacks. I see no exchange of ideas, no debate, nothing. I see the right trying to get in shots at the left and the left bringing up a point to discuss maybe have the right show where it is wrong.... and yet the right do their best to play TFP Limbaughs and attack and play cutesy little games and ignore what has been put in front of them....

Again, I ask the right, why post if you are not going to debate or bring anything of substance to the table? Is it because you must post the same attacks in every post so that people will tune out anything the left may have right? If you cannot truly debate a point what does that say about your stance, your ideology and your partisan views?

As for the OP..... there is some obvious truths, moreso now than at any other time in our history..... and if you want to debate that.... by all means bring your facts and I'll bring mine. I love history, I have studied it all my life and I think I can pretty much show that as far as the OP and Fascism goes, there was never a period in our history where all 14, where even 10 of those 14 points are close.....

So either put up a debate, show me what you have or move on and stop playing your juvenile games..... for "professionals" with so many degrees, education or inner experience you truly show nothing but ignorance as you play these games.

Kinda like the whole national thing..... where those lefties seem to be controlling the races and elections.

Sun Tzu · 09-09-2006, 01:46 AM

Actually a few select members get webcams and an open conference program and stream a video debate they might have a nightly audience.

I think the only reason Hannity and Combes has worked out is they dont directly go at one another like Crossfire.

09-08-2006, 11:08 AM	#2 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	the only thing that is left out of the above is the importance of the "state of exception" or "state of emergency" as a legal device that is used to implement/extend the other areas. in pre-nazi germany, the main legal theorist of the "state of exception" and its correlate in dictatorship was crl schmitt. to my ongoing shock, the central figure behind many of the bush administration's legal arguments about executive power and its unlimited extendability is also carl schmitt. in european versions of fascism, the center of support for it came from the petit bourgeois sectors, who were the prime demographic behind the populist blood-and-soil ideology central to the regime. thise petit bourgeois support was critical in legitimating the suppression of the left (in italy and in germany)---in less fully implemented types of fascism, like poujadisme in france during the 50s (the precursor of the front national) it was once again the petit bourgeois that was the main audience for almost all the arguments outlined in the op. now i am not going to say that bushworld is fascist. it just kinda looks like it. the main difference so far are the obstacles that the bushpeople's claims based on the "state or emergency" or "state of exception" have encountered, the limits that have shaped how far these have been able to go--they have not been and with any luck will not be adequately powerful to enable a total bypassing of the legistative branch (which schmitt called weak and indecisive--too committed to debate to make "decisions"--not endowed with the "power" of the "decisionmaker")--but it is fairly obvious that the bush-cheney folk would prefer these limits not exist.... we'll see what the near future brings. in my more paranoid moments, i worry a bit about what could happen if the republicans loose control of congress in november--between the elections and january. who knows. maybe a war being launched against iran... but i remain basically a bit pollyanna. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-08-2006, 11:24 AM	#3 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	Is it the SAME Carl Schmitt, or just an alarming co-incidence of names? If it't the same one, he must be almost 100! __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

09-08-2006, 11:25 AM	#4 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Damn. Thatm article is too big to be my signature. This is a facinating artucle that has been in circulation for some time. I've read it quite a few times, and I use it as a guide. I consider it to be reliable (I've not seen anyone in here actually argue with any of the 14 points). I think it is something everyone should bear in mind when monitoring our democracy. Last edited by Willravel; 09-08-2006 at 03:02 PM..

09-08-2006, 11:26 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Left wing accademic - check Selling anti-Bush book - check Writes a list in order to fit what the left sees as the current climate and create a buzz prior to publishing book - check Taking the list at face value as an accademic work - Priceless. Bonus Irony - Fascism is a left wing ideology, to dumb it down, its 'big government'. Edit:having a hard time doing any additional research as the vast majority of the hits seem to be from left wing bloggers, often just cut and pasting the same article. Explains maybe why the book is no longer available on Amazon. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 09-08-2006 at 11:35 AM..

09-08-2006, 11:31 AM	#6 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	hasn't this list been posted on here before? __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

09-08-2006, 12:30 PM	#7 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	here are some biographical tidbits and a bit more on schmitt. http://www.generation-online.org/p/pschmitt.htm the more you read him, the more you see the influence on john yoo, gonzalez et al. ustwo: if you "dumb down" the list as far as you manage to, you"dumb it down" to the level of meaninglessness--which does nto surprise me in general, but almost every time you do it in particular, it does. this time, you really manage to say almost nothing at all. like there is a contest that only you are playing in. stevo: the general discussion has happened before, but not based on this particular list of features. i have listed some before, and they were close to those in the op. if i remember, they got about the same kind of responses from the conservative set that this one is getting. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-08-2006, 12:52 PM	#9 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Yay, it's 4 months since a thread declared Bush or Neo-Cons as Hitler and the SS! Yall made your quota for this quarter. __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

09-08-2006, 01:01 PM	#11 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Thanks for the post, Sun Tzu. A friend and I started tracking the 14 characteristics a few years ago and then we found the site linked below. Specific articles are linked that are representative of each characteristic of facism, and you can judge for yourself how applicable you think they are. We also have a list of things that Bush wants but hasn't gotten yet. 14 Examples

09-08-2006, 01:14 PM	#12 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	You know, I'm working for a living here, I post when I get a break, so my mind isn't always 100% on the posts, so I am a bit embarassed that it took so long to figure out this point. Based on that list, the US has always been and always will be a fascist government. Name a time in US history where those 'points' weren't so, or at least claimed to be by some people. I double dog dare you. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-08-2006, 01:51 PM	#13 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	you know, there is an interesting conversation to be had about this. typically, anytime there is an interesting conversation to be had about something that makes the tfp-right uncomfortable, they seem to work to bury the thread beneath a pile of ill-considered quips, irrelevant material, wortheless asides--anything and everything except consider the question at hand and perhaps even take the time to think about the questions that are raised. it happens every fucking time: steaming mounds of ill-considered, half baked rightwing idiocy seems to be all that the ustwo sqaud can contribute to any thread--whether they agree or not, it is always the same. it is ALWAYS the same. it is always the same here. it is always the same. no matter what the topic, it is always the same. it is always the same. agree or not agree, what you see from the ustwo squad never fucking changes. no matter the situation, it is always the fucking same. there is husky hair moving around my apartment. i am going to go watch it. it HAS to be more interesting than this. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-08-2006, 06:54 PM	#25 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	It was your point. Support it yourself. Sheesh, how simple does it have to be for a decent discussion from y'all?

09-08-2006, 07:03 PM	#27 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Reread the OP, u2. Perhaps that will be of help in correcting your perception.

09-08-2006, 07:06 PM	#28 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	I am not much of one to stick my nose into politics for I know I would get into trouble. However, this thread is SO funny right now I think I shall go make a bag of popcorn, grab some fruit punch and enjoy a good laugh or 5.

09-08-2006, 07:16 PM	#30 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	I shall do my best. I am sure the small post I made above will bring myself under an interesting bit of name calling and finger pointing. After all that is what it seems these threads are all about here. Who can call the best names and insult the best without getting banned. Why cant people respect the opinions of others. Everyone is right in their own mind. Eventually the term will end and this will all have been a nightmare over for some or the reign of perfetion coming to end for others. Its all a matter of perception.

09-08-2006, 07:37 PM	#34 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	Welcome to TFP dc. Not everyone calls names. For the most part we are a peace loving bunch of people from various backgrounds who like to have fun. Of course there are always those...... that put the FUN in dysfunctional. I see many valid points in the above list of 14 in the way the world today is. It makes me sad that tis come to this in places. On the plus side though, it helps us know what we need to start doing to prevent such thigns in the future.

09-08-2006, 10:17 PM	#37 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	I already did dj, dont bother you'll just be ignored too. __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

09-08-2006, 11:03 PM	#39 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	This is why I don't post in politics anymore.... or very rarely do I post. I see nothing but attacks. I see no exchange of ideas, no debate, nothing. I see the right trying to get in shots at the left and the left bringing up a point to discuss maybe have the right show where it is wrong.... and yet the right do their best to play TFP Limbaughs and attack and play cutesy little games and ignore what has been put in front of them.... Again, I ask the right, why post if you are not going to debate or bring anything of substance to the table? Is it because you must post the same attacks in every post so that people will tune out anything the left may have right? If you cannot truly debate a point what does that say about your stance, your ideology and your partisan views? As for the OP..... there is some obvious truths, moreso now than at any other time in our history..... and if you want to debate that.... by all means bring your facts and I'll bring mine. I love history, I have studied it all my life and I think I can pretty much show that as far as the OP and Fascism goes, there was never a period in our history where all 14, where even 10 of those 14 points are close..... So either put up a debate, show me what you have or move on and stop playing your juvenile games..... for "professionals" with so many degrees, education or inner experience you truly show nothing but ignorance as you play these games. Kinda like the whole national thing..... where those lefties seem to be controlling the races and elections. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

09-09-2006, 01:46 AM	#40 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	Actually a few select members get webcams and an open conference program and stream a video debate they might have a nightly audience. I think the only reason Hannity and Combes has worked out is they dont directly go at one another like Crossfire. __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*