RaGe2012

I totally agree that civillian and non-civilian personnel who gave their lives on 9/11 going above and beyond the call of duty are heroes. They died helping to save other people.

I think that Afghanistan was justified...we knew Bin Laden was there and we knew the Taliban were harboring Al-Qaeda.

But why Iraq? I love how now the Republicans are trying to stop any probes into the intelligence gathered before the war with Iraq...what are they hiding?

I know this is a touchy subject, and people are more than inclined to disagree, but imposing sanctions did NOTHING except postpone war for 12 years. I knew it was coming 12 years ago when we didn't chase down Hussein and put down his regime then. Instead, we sat back behind a wall of political rhetoric and let over one MILLION Iraqi people die due to sanctions. We could have saved them if King Bush the First wasn't so pig-headed.

In fact, throughout this whole "Terror War" Ordeal, the only terrorists we haven't threatened are the Israelis...how dare the Palestinians be on their land before they got there!

Then again, maybe we should worry more about our own country before we go trying to police the world.

__________________
"Yesterday we bowed our heads to kings and bent our necks to emperors. But today we kneel only to truth..."
- Kahlil Gibran

reconmike

King Bush the first was prevented from removing Hussien by the great world governing body the UN.
You should ask them why this wasnt taken care of in '91.

Maybe you should research WHO the Palestinians are.

__________________
Where is Darwin when ya need him?

RaGe2012

The UN didn't stop us from unseating Hussein this time. We threw around enough propoganda to justify our war. That, coupled with public fervor over 9/11 and Bush's allegations of "terrorism links" with Iraq. Speaking of which, why are the Republicans trying to limit the probe into intelligence gathered in Iraq? What are they trying to hide, out of curiostiy?

I know who the Palestinians are. They are the native Arabs who were trampled on by the British 1917 Balfour Declaration, declaring Israel as a state within Palestine. Call me crazy, but another country issuing an edict declaring someone elses country a different country and populating it with a new population is wrong. I can see why the Palestinians are really cheesed about the whole thing. Now these Ultra-Zionists want to see the Palestinians eradicated because they want to control the entire biblical-era Israel.

Yeah, so what if the Jews had the land to themselves several millennia ago? To make a comparison, why doesn't every non-Native American in this country just leave and give it back to the Native Americans? I bet you don't like that idea, now do you?

On a final note, being as this thread was started about "fake patriotism" (which I totally agree with 3LeggedFrog on this one), yeah, many troops over the years have given their lives to protect American freedoms, including the freedom of speech I have now. But the attitude nowadays seems to be one of "sit down, shut up, do as your told, and don't rock the boat. Don't think, just do as your told, and don't question the powers that be" - I don't know if I can do that. That attitude, in and of itself defeats American freedoms.

__________________
"Yesterday we bowed our heads to kings and bent our necks to emperors. But today we kneel only to truth..."
- Kahlil Gibran

Xeen

I think that a lot of people confuse patriotism, nationalism and societal responsibility.

Feelings of good will and responsibility to your social community is a good thing (IMHO) - it's what's got the human race to where it is today (in terms of it's great achievements). But I think that the problem is that people tend to close of their idea of social community where their national borders (and in a lot of cases other, smaller borders) end for some reason and so we end up with nationalism.

There's certainly nothing wrong with being happy, or even proud, of what you country (or city or neighbourhood) achieves but I think it's another matter when you start to look down on or hurt others as a result.

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~~ Xeen ~~

This court rules that religion must stay 500 yards away from science at all times.

3leggedfrog

intristing fact.

__________________
"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo

"Iam myself every day."

j8ear

hmmm. Fake patriotism. I concur in part and dissent on most. I will not file a dissenting opinion though because im lazy. I will offer the follow:

1. 99 percent of the sheep in this country have no clue what patriotism is, myself included. Flying a flag don't cut it. Slappin a sticker on your bumper don't cut it. Shaking the hand of a thieving, lying sack of crap policeman don't cut it either. Blind allegience to your government is not the answer. Not sure what is, but what has been happening in the US since nine eleven is not it. I think it is a love of the country from which you take, and a respect enough to give back. We americans are a self serving bunch of hypocrites. Ever see that commercial where the 'terrorists' changed America, and to prove it they should a street full of row houses before and after. The only difference was a bunch of flags flying in the after shot. I hope a lot more changes happened then that. The only reason those weak little highjackers were able to do anything, is because we sheep in the US have been taught that we should go 'cooperate' with those who try to harm us because that will minimize it's impact on you. Yuor government will take care of everything. PAHLEEEESE. I hope you learned to take of yourself and those around you who you care about. Don't rely on the 'man' for a thing. He is a useless, underhanded, untrustworthy ally.

2. Most of those police officers who died on 9-11 did so running away from the towers scared for their lives. Like a bunch of whiney little bitches. Most civil servants could care less about those they serve, and do so strickly for the 'power' they think it bestows them. Firemen I think are daredevils who get a rush from the adrenaline highs fighting the mighty beast of a fire. Some are worthy of praise, few of hero status. Most are sniveling little union pussies who love the idea of "chicks digging the uniform" while they bitch that they are underpaid and over worked. Just because you die doing your pathetic little job doesn't make you a hero. Remember the stories about the bodies of those cops they found with pockets stuffed with Rolex's. Those cops KNEW they could get away with it, and would have no problem perjuring themselves to pin it on someone else. The exception to the rule is an honest cop. Most firefighters do put themselves on the line, but again being killed in the line of duty doesn't make you a hero. Firefighters are bestowed with the moniker of "bravest," NY bravest, America's bravest, whatever. This fits. A hero is someone who goes WAY ABOVE and beyond the call of duty, regardless of known risk. It's a tough bill to fill, few have ever, and few will ever achieve hero status. I know of one who qualifies in my book from nine-eleven. Father Mike Judge. May god rest his soul.

3. Military service. If you don't know that the pay is shit (although you don't have to pay for room or board, so every penny is drinking money, or saving money if your so inclined), and that you ~could~ be tasked with killing or even being killed...then you are a complete moron, and deserve every bad thing hurled your way. I knew, and have no regrets. I have been shot at, and done some shooting at...all the while being paid peanuts. I wouldn't trade a minute of it.

out,

bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

RaGe2012

Hear hear! Finally someone said it. Just because you die in a wreck doesn't make you a hero, and neither does simply doing your job make you a hero. There are few cops who I know who are worthy of "hero" status. Most of the ones I know are crooked bastards who enjoy planting drugs on people they pull over. I totally agree - only going above and beyond the call of duty should qualify someone for "hero" status. I am personally tired of the over-glorification of firemen and policemen for doing simply what they were hired to do. Jeez...I was in the Army and no one ever pinned a medal on me and called me a hero for being there, so why should any other schmuck who just happens to be in the middle of a disaster be called a hero for doing what they are supposed to do?

__________________
"Yesterday we bowed our heads to kings and bent our necks to emperors. But today we kneel only to truth..."
- Kahlil Gibran

mystmarimatt

finally some intelligent people. of course i respect firemen for doing their jobs, it's tough and probably scary as hell, my brother is one, but to pin the title of hero on them for doing what their jobs prescribe is just more of this fake patriotic propaganda we get.

__________________
Words of Wisdom:

If you could really get to know someone and know that they weren't lying to you, then you would know the world was real. Because you could agree on things, you could compare notes. That must be why people get married or make Art. So they'll be able to really know something and not go insane.

reconmike

The hero title goes to anyone that has has the balls to do what most are chicken to shit to do.

__________________
Where is Darwin when ya need him?

KillerYoda

So I'm a hero for disagreeing with Bush's dealings in Iraq? Badass!

__________________
"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

reconmike

Sure let me give you something you can never earn.

__________________
Where is Darwin when ya need him?

Sparhawk

Most of the cops died running from the wreck??

That post is just too hateful to respond in the particulars.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

KillerYoda

Thanks, is it yours?

__________________
"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

reconmike

No, but this is, and sorry but you cant have it.

__________________
Where is Darwin when ya need him?

KillerYoda

I got one of these one time:
You can still love your country without winning medals.

__________________
"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

splck

So I'm a hero for jumping off the Slocan River bridge when I was 14? Woo hoo!!

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nice line eh?

reconmike

Thats right you all can fantasize about being big brave people, demeaning others who did because if it came down to it you probably couldnt.
No big deal, live in you little world thinking you are better.
The people who dare will do it for you.
Thats what makes this country great, doers and watchers, armchair quaterbacking is fun. And how bad can you get hurt doing it.

So keep disrespecting the ones that have proven they are braver, because sitting in front of a screen is just so dangerous.

__________________
Where is Darwin when ya need him?

Sparhawk

What, no 'V' device?

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Sparhawk

Earning a bronze star is an impressive accomplishment, reconmike, don't diminish it by dropping to the level of the people you are criticizing.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

reconmike

Mine has a "v" on it, ill get my rack photo up soon.
Did I read somewhere Sparhawk you were a HM3?
Ours was as gungy as they come.

__________________
Where is Darwin when ya need him?

Sparhawk

Nope, someone else

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Lebell

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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splck

I'm not demeaning brave people, I just don't agree with you that anyone that takes on a dangerous job is, by default, a "hero". They may be brave, courageous, daring, noble, worthy of our respect and all the other good things that go with the line of work they choose, but they are not heroes automatically. I guess we just think a different way on the use of this word. People shouldn't get respect off the mark; they need to earn it.

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nice line eh?

j8ear

If I started this rancor with a brother jar-head...good. Perhaps if you were aware of my 'quad-bod' credentials and plank holder status for third force when the SRIG stood us up in 91 at Hansen. I too wear the scars of my bloodings. It does not make me a hero. Exceptional and brave. Possibly. Better prepared for those tests which propel individuals to heroism. Definately.

I have served honorably and with distinction. I take back or ammend nothing.

over,

bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.