07-14-2006, 04:31 AM | #1 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Gun control is our gravest national security threat
cross border firefight
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." Last edited by dksuddeth; 07-14-2006 at 07:17 AM.. |
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07-14-2006, 05:49 AM | #3 (permalink) |
Muffled
Location: Camazotz
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Maybe this belongs in Tilited Paranoia instead. The statement that the US Armed Forces won't protect the United States against the first armed incursion of our soil in over a century is pretty out there.
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it's quiet in here |
07-14-2006, 05:53 AM | #4 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Dk, are you off your meds again? Seriously, are you saying that we need to have the armed forces sitting on the Mexican border ready to respond instantly to someone shooting at a couple of morons? If you remove the border aspect, this is virtually identical to something that happened in the mountains of East TN about 3 months ago, where a couple of drug dealers ran into the arms of the cops with other drug dealers in hot pursuit. This was a 10-minute exchange of fire - how close would the military have to be to respond in time?
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
07-14-2006, 07:22 AM | #5 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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you people scare the crap out of me. millions of people a year, who we don't know are violent or not, cross our border and the government is barely lifting a finger to do anything about it. I bring this up because it doesn't have to be an armed and armored convoy trucking across the US in full invasion, yet you always bring it to that and I think you do that to avoid the logical aspects of the argument.
How many illegals COULD have crossed the border in the last 5 years? How many of those MIGHT have carried several guns, like machine guns, with them? How many of those COULD be conspiring to bring about the kind of mass carnage like what happened on 9/11? IF a large gang of people intend on launching shootups across some of the southern cities, with machine guns, how long do you think it would take ANY government agency to respond with any kind of effectiveness? (think LA riots)
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
07-14-2006, 07:57 AM | #7 (permalink) |
Junkie
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dk this incident doesn't say anything about gun control in the US. it happend in mexico not the US, there is no mention of if these Americans had guns and if they used them (if they had they'd be dead now i'm sure), more than likely these men living in mexico were doing something shady that got the attention of these other guys (perhaps moving in on their drug territory?)
How is this a threat to national security? |
07-14-2006, 07:58 AM | #8 (permalink) | |
Asshole
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Location: Chicago
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If a group large enough to shoot up a city launched an attack large enough to warrant a military response, it would almost certainly take a day or two for an appropriate response in almost every Southern city besides Atlanta due to the proximity of the military. If you have a complaint about that, I suggest you start working on a device to instantly transport men and material from one place to another since its a logistics problem, not a political one. And for the record, I do NOT want you or any of your armed neighbors acting as vigilanties on my behalf.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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07-14-2006, 08:06 AM | #9 (permalink) | ||||
Devoted
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Location: New England
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Your original story appears to be about a fight amongst rival drug factions. Note that the American citizens with a ranch on the Mexican side "are suspects in other criminal investigations". I don't think you can draw any conclusions from this story, especially the conclusions that you are drawing.
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07-14-2006, 10:11 AM | #10 (permalink) | ||||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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The conclusions that i'm drawing stem from many things besides this story. 1) The border patrol is stretched too thin 2) the military is barely there 3) local law enforcement can't do much about it either conclusion #1 - we are dangerously vulnerable to any criminal/terrorist element that chooses to come in from the south conclusion #2 - because it takes more than two days to organize any national guard/military/law enforcement that would have any chance at all of stopping a mass shooting, should that happen, the people in whichever towns are targeted are going to pay a heavy price because they would not be able to defend themselves or their town. conclusion #3 - Because people like jazz think that police and military are the 'only ones' trained and competent enough to handle a gun and that us lowly serfs should just hide in a locked room and wait for the proper authorities to handle anyone 'evil', we'll stay in dire straits and immense danger because of it. That is why I am saying that gun control is our gravest threat to national security. WE, the people, are the main AND last line of defense of our towns/cities/country....it's a shame that some people consider themselves unworthy of the responsibility
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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07-14-2006, 10:24 AM | #11 (permalink) | |
Devoted
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Location: New England
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I can't read your signature. Sorry. |
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07-14-2006, 10:53 AM | #12 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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you're right, there is no debate with those not in touch with reality.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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07-14-2006, 01:30 PM | #13 (permalink) | |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
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07-14-2006, 01:41 PM | #14 (permalink) | |
Devoted
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Location: New England
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I can't read your signature. Sorry. |
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07-14-2006, 02:44 PM | #15 (permalink) |
Psycho
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I'm confused. Are you not allowed to bear arms, DK? I don't believe I've seen ANYone on this board say that we should take 100% of your guns away. What's to stop everyone on the border from having whatever you see as an appropriate number of guns?
Seems like you're getting all riled up about something that isn't even an issue. If your intent is to convince people that are against guns to go get 'em, you might tone down the rhetoric and doomsday scenarios. Pretty counter-productive for me. For whatever it's worth, I read the OP and become MORE inclinced to try to take guns away from people. |
07-14-2006, 03:06 PM | #16 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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The gravest? I doubt that. One of the threats, maybe, but hardly the gravest. The biggest threat right now is probably another republican president in 2008. Aisde from that, the budget is pretty serious. I'd like to know how we plan on paying that back. another would be the consolidation of power in the executive branch. While the right to bear arms may be on the top 100, or maybe top 50, it's not #1.
Besides, the Mexicans are a clean, industrious people who are an important part of our economy. While drug dealers aren't always fun, they do know that their biggest source of money is the American people. If they want to make money off us, they need to appear to be a far away threat, at the very least. Killing people here will shock us from apathy and into action. They don't want that. Sales would fall, and we could send a lot of military their way. |
07-14-2006, 06:40 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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07-14-2006, 06:58 PM | #18 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Dksuddeth, while I do not agree with your interpretation of gun laws, I do recognise the importance of an armed populace. If I really felt that that level of power shift was taking place, the power to defend one's self from threats foreign and doestic, I'd be right there with you. In the mein time, I still think *some* of your gun control threads are alarmist ... and consider that this is coming from someone who thinks that the government orchestrated and carried out the attacks on 9/11 and thinks that we should start a new government (or at least replace most of the people leading our current government).
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07-15-2006, 01:23 AM | #19 (permalink) |
Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It!
Location: Southern England
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Goign back to the OP, I read it to mean that the US police would not enter into a cross border fire-fight.
I'd have thought that the jurisdiction of US police doesn't extend into Mexico, even if they are being shot at - it would certainly spark an international incident if an Irish policeman fired across the border at a British citizen on our onyl land border. Had the Mexicans set foot in the US, I expect the police would have responded more vigorously.
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07-15-2006, 03:07 AM | #20 (permalink) |
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
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I'm not seeing how this is in any way related to US gun control laws, or how such laws could possibly have had any negative effect on this situation. The gunfight originated in Mexico and the people firing were apparently still in Mexico at the time.
Gilda |
07-15-2006, 03:31 AM | #21 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Liverpool UK
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If the guys doing the firing didn't have guns then this incident wouldn't have happened, so it's equally justifiable to say that the state of gun control in Mexico is a risk to US national security. You could even say that keeping the drug trade illegal is a threat!
For me, the "anti gun socialists" comment removes what little credibility the post may have had. Gun control isn't an economics issue, it's a libertarian/authoritarian issue. If you let your bigotry haze your judgement then you'll end up fighting the wrong group. Your enemies, DK, are the anti-gun free-marketeers, as they're the only ones with a chance of forming a government. |
07-15-2006, 11:02 AM | #22 (permalink) | |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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07-17-2006, 10:53 AM | #25 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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shouldn't limit it to border towns. all citizens should be skilled in firearms and their usage/maintenance. tactics wouldn't hurt, but at least don't be afraid of them and learn to handle/shoot them. 50 cals are great, the nest would look cheesy though(half serious on that)
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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07-17-2006, 12:01 PM | #26 (permalink) |
Muffled
Location: Camazotz
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I think if we're going to specify things all citizens should be skilled in, first aid might go at the top of the list, because accidental injuries are a lot more common than firefights in the America of this universe.
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it's quiet in here |
07-17-2006, 12:48 PM | #27 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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07-17-2006, 01:09 PM | #28 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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I think back on the ocean life guard lessons I received a long time ago. If impact with an object is imminent, always put the person you're rescuing between you and the object because you can't save anyone if you're unconcious yourself.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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07-17-2006, 01:15 PM | #29 (permalink) | |
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
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Gilda |
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07-17-2006, 03:20 PM | #30 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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She was always afraid of guns, and one day I took her to the shooting range, rented some guns and bought some ammo. A couple hours later she was informed enough to handle a gun if need be, meaning she's familiar with the way it operates, how to handle it, aim it, and pull the trigger. She's familiar with the recoil, the smell of gunpowder, the sound of the blast. She's not a large girl, she's small 5'4 102lbs, and she fired a .44. She did quite well at aiming at the paper targets on both targets and body form.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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07-17-2006, 03:33 PM | #32 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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07-17-2006, 03:57 PM | #34 (permalink) | ||
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
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Neither aiming at targets nor at people appeals to me, I don't like them, and I won't have a gun in my home, so I think I'd rather just stick with avoiding them altogether. It's worked for me so far. Gilda Last edited by Gilda; 07-17-2006 at 03:59 PM.. |
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07-18-2006, 02:21 AM | #35 (permalink) | |
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07-18-2006, 03:00 AM | #36 (permalink) | |
Psycho
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BTW, I will now be using you as one of my arguments for stricter gun control. |
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07-18-2006, 03:22 AM | #37 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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07-18-2006, 04:20 AM | #38 (permalink) | |
Searching for the perfect brew!
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I agree with others, maybe this blongs in Tilted Paranoia. dksuddeth, you don't work for postal service do you?
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"That's a joke... I say, that's a joke, son" Last edited by Brewmaniac; 07-26-2006 at 06:43 AM.. |
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07-18-2006, 04:43 AM | #39 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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07-18-2006, 04:59 AM | #40 (permalink) | |
Muffled
Location: Camazotz
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1. How many situations have you experienced which required the use of a gun to resolve? I'm asking in your civilian life, and I'll acept your judgement on whether it was required or not. I also recognize "that's not the point"; I'm just curious. 2. You live in the Dallas/Ft Worth area, approximately, what, 300 miles from the Mexican border? Your major metropolitan area has a substantial police force. Fort Hood, Fort Sam Houston, and several other military bases are between you and the oncoming horde of reconquistas. Are you actually afraid of them, or is your behavior just posturing? I think you are the one not approaching this realistically, but I think you are doing it deliberately.
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it's quiet in here |
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control, gravest, gun, national, security, threat |
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