popo

gibber, if you think that these 10+ years of on & off negotiations are centered on monetary factors, well then, nothing I can say is going to change your mind.

Message board history has shown that in the end you will still believe what you want to believe and to be honest, a 5th grade debate is not what I have in mind right now.

madsenj37

It has everything to do with Israel and not Jews specifically, so I vote no.

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gibber71

We'll see. That being if any backroom deals ever see the light of day.

gibber71

Likewise,..sorry your thread didn't work out the way you wanted it to.

popo

I have no problem with how it's worked out. I was just curious about what people would think about the cartoon and that's what I got for the most part.

As far as backroom deals, of course there will be some. And money used to jump start the Israeli & Palestinian economies will be part of it but that stuff has already been agreed to in past discussions in Oslo, Camp David, Taba, etc.

The holdups have been due to security issues and mistrust on both sides. To suggest that it's been about money is simply disingenuous.

gibber71

I wasn't suggesting that the Isreali's or anyone else is getting suitcases full of money or secret bank accounts.I'm not suggesting for a minute either that the 'roadmap' is of some secondary importance,but there are many countries that stand to benefit from the outcome and want their piece of the pie as well in their given context's. The 'roadmap' as you know is very complicated and in a lot of instances,just the tip of the iceberg in terms of future foreign policies.

I can understand how you see this cartoon as anti-semitic. I'm not saying your wrong because I understand your position with the detail given.I didn't see it as such and wouldn't have thought that way since I looked at the big picture first regarding the roadmap and what I said above.If anything,I think this cartoonist is guilty of ignorance if in fact he is infering that the U.S has to bribe the Isreali's for peace.I really don't think that the U.S has to bribe anyone. But that connotation is certainly prevalent since it appears that Yasser Arafat is looking on impatiently with his arms crossed.

gibber71

And one more thing.As stated I can see the anti-semitic overtones some people feel exist but what about the anti-American overtones.Is this cartoonist saying that Yassar Arafat is on the side of the American's or vise versa? Is he implying that the American's are in bed with terrorist's? I don't want to read to much into it,but I think several things are directly and indirectly being said here.If this cartoon was placed in a Canadian paper it would more likely be viewed as anti-American rather than anti-semitic.

crumbbum

Sharon's nose in the picture reminds me of a lot of the Nazi cartoon propaganda I've seen- it's a classic thing to portray Jews as greedy, and the hook nose is a classic. It is anti-semitic. Maybe that other one is anti-arab too- though I don't have much to compare it too. I have seen more anti-Jewish propaganda.

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Darkblack

This is not anti-anything in my opinion.

It depicts the United States, lead by doofus in charge, forking cash to Israel in order to get them to stop massacring Palestinians and find some sort of peace agreement.

Using the star is just like using a cross to signify Christianity. It signifies a group. The star is on the flag so really there is no difference unless you want to make it one.

Cartoons are meant to generalize an entire event into one picture. The artist also wants everyone that looks at it to know right away what it has to do with, even if they only have a small amount of knowledge of the event.

If there was a cross on a guys shirt directing a young boy into a dark room while looking over his shoulder would that be anti-Christian? No, it is depicting current events.

Playing the racism card or the anti-this/that card is used to make an argument invalid. No one wants to be a racist so they leave the problem alone. It also generalizes the problems so that when a real issue of racism occurs everyone just pushes it aside as another one of those race issues.

4thTimeLucky

Darkblack

I think the issues are (i) "depicting current events" and (ii) generalization.

i) The cartoon does not depict current events. The peace process is stalled because of violence and fear (e.g. the recent Palestinian shooting of Israeli soldiers), not because the Israelis (or as this cartoon would have you think - the Jews) haven't been given enough money. In fact the issue of money hasn;t been in any newspaper articles I have read is only relevant as part of the continuing framework of talks - there will need to be money to rebuild Palestine, that is all.

ii) When an artist makes a statement about a group that should strictly only apply to a few members of the group then that is unfair generalisation or stereotyping and leads to the charges of racism, sexism or anti-whatever. In the church case it is only a small minority of priests who are paedophiles and if the cartoons intent was to say that priests generally are then it would be wrong. Of course if it was just trying to depict a one off incident (and this was clear from the cartoon or the usual role of the cartoon in the paper - e.g. some always depict one of the day's stories others always make wider political statements) then it is okay.

This to everyone here:
Ask yourself what it is about this cartoon that makes it antisemitic (if anything does) and then ask yourself whether any of those features apply to the earlier cartoon:

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Darkblack

That cartoon depicts Jews taking over the world.
That is wrong and anti-Semitic. I agree totally.

The cartoon in question is the artist voicing his opinion on the fact that the US has to give money to Israel in order for them to even talk with the Palestinians. It has nothing to do with the current halt in talks. At least this is what I get out of it.

4thTimeLucky

And the Octopus picture was the cartoonist expressing his opinion that the Jews had come to dominate the banking and business spheres of the world.

And there was some truth in that. These stereotypes and racist cartoons don't come out of nothing.

So the defining line (and it will be a thin one) is whether the opinion is an accurate and genuine one or a cover for a more troubling message.

For me, there is very little truth in the claim "the US has to give money to Israel in order for them to even talk with the Palestinians". The Israelis want (in fact need) a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian issue. Money will come into play - it always does in politics - but it is not a very important issue. As already sated the US gives huges amounts of money to Egypt - an Arab state with no peace process - because that is how America feels it can get influence and create stability in the region, through the giving money.

Having shown the flimsiness of the cartoon's basic message we must now ask what it is acting as cover for. My answer is that it is a cover for the more troubling stereotypes and lies that the cartoon is playing on and propogating:

- Jews are fat and hook nosed
- Jews have less of an interest in peace than other races
- But Jews have an excessive interest in money
- And this is what the US is using to make them interested in peace.

This message has been made before.
I am sorry it is so big.
The German says:
"The Jew: The inciter of war, the prolonger of war"

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aapunen

Nope

betman

I hate political correctness.

eple

wow...you managed to relate this to Hitler....impressive.

Easytiger

Hmm...sounds like you might be taking the piss, eple.

eple

hmmm...sounds like you might me getting the irony, Easytiger.

eple

btw: every cartoonist portraying Arafat gives him a big-ass nose too, truth is, bot of them have huge noses. I think that is more a personal attribute than a racial thing. Stop bitching about anti-semitism everytime someone citizises Israel, they manage to do that fine by themselves.

bonbonbox

Comics generally have a funny thought involved, thus the Com in Comics. Anti-semitic? No. Stereotypical? Yes. Many jewish comics have poked fun at the jews and their money ideas that people have. They were in no way being anti-semitic.

skinbag

Hey people ! The 'beak" nose is not anti-semetic, it distinguishes the "Jew" in the cartoon as a hawk (war-monger) separating him from the main body of Jews. Check this out if you think $ isn't involved in our relations with Israel.

Summary

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630


Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Cost per Israeli
$23,240
Here's the link :http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

I'm no scholar on the Mid-East, but when I see the news I'm very struck by how conservative the Israeli government is. They Remind me of our fearless leader. I was also watching the news the day that right-wing Israeli politician took his cadre of bodyguards to a Muslim holy site just to prove he could go anywhere in Israel he damn well pleased. This to people who are forced to abide by checkpoints and curfews everyday! What an asshole! I have no qualms about stating that that man (wish I could remember his name) started the latest round of violence. (the last 3 years give or take)
I've enjoyed every Jew that I've known well (only 3 or 4), but they were Americans. I believe the government of Israel must be made up of fanatical Jews. Fanatics are a problem, no matter what belief system they come from. The Israelis have no moral high ground on the Palestinians, and Jews I have talked to are alarmed by the Israeli policy of seek and destroy, much as I am alarmed by the Bush administration's pursuit of tactical nukes. In short, (sorry so long) the cartoon is critical of the Hawks in the Israeli government, and they are somewhat influenced by the HUGE amounts of aid we hand out to them.

eple

I have said it before and I say it again gladly: Zionists and xxtreme right-wingers in Israel have as much to do with the Jewish religion as nazists had to christianity. Hitler based his reich on "chrstian" values, Sharon bases his on holocaust.

Ustwo

Isreal gets the most US aid.

Egypt is second.

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hobo

Well no, I don't even get the cartoon but it doesn't seem anti-semetic. It just depicts Bush giving Israel money, nothing new. The US has given Israel tons of money and technology.

keif

thats fuckin funny gotta love a little jew humor to pass the time

eple

Hay dude, how nice of you to resurrect this thread with this useful information. Great post!

irateplatypus

i would say that it is anti-semetic. not necessarily because it criticizes Israel, but because it plays on the stereotype of jews being greedy/money-grubbing people.

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auswegian

Hmmph. I dunno. I reckon he looks like Ariel Sharon more than he does my mental image of a "generic Jew". The Yasser looks a bit more generic but I'd put that down to lazy cartoonist syndrome. The whole Star of David is just an identifier, maybe it would have been better off putting a proper Israeli flag, but I think thats just nitpicking.

It could be taken in an anti-semitic way if you were so inclined, but I don't think that was the way it was intended.

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