james t kirk

Just read today that the minutemen are back patrolling the boarder to the Great White North.

They tried last year for a while in October, but didn't catch or see anyone.

Then it got cold, so they went home.

Now it's spring, and they are back for another stint of weekend warrior. "Break out the night vision goggles Earl, we're going in"

I was hoping that they would have done this sort of thing in January and February on the Saskatchewan boarder, but no luck there I guess.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2...509611-cp.html

(CP) - An American civilian group will soon be on the lookout again for illegal migrants entering the United States from Canada along stretches of the border.

Starting April 1, volunteers with the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps, angered with the ongoing entry of illegal migrants to the United States, will be watching from New York to New Hampshire at locations yet to be disclosed. Washington state volunteers are also to be on guard.

"There's no real border security, and we feel there's a good chance terrorists could get in," said Peter Lanteri, a Long Island resident and head of the initiative in New York state.

"What we're doing is a neighbourhood watch on our own border. We are another set of eyes, just as the government asked Americans to be after 9-11."

Lanteri expects 36 volunteers to take part in New York state - most of them former military and law-enforcement officers concerned about both economic migrants, criminals and potential terrorists. The group claims 6,500 volunteers throughout the United States.

Russ Delacy, a spokesman for the U.S. Border Patrol, the mobile uniformed law-enforcement arm of the Department of Homeland Security, says the government neither supports nor discourages Minutemen work.

"We answer their calls just as we would anyone else's. As long as they aren't breaking any laws, we treat them like any other citizen," Delacy said from his office in Stanton, Vt.

DeLacy said that during fiscal year 2005, the Border Patrol apprehended 856 illegal aliens who failed to enter at official crossings along a 420-kilometre stretch of the border between the Thousand Islands and New Hampshire.

In October, New York Minutemen were on guard in Washington state, Vermont and, for two nights, near Massena, N.Y., but had no sightings.

This year, the observation is planned to last a week. Month-long patrols of the southern U.S. border along several states are also to start Saturday. The group patrolled the Arizona border for a month last year.

http://www.minutemanhq.com/state/rea...ter=NY&sid=110

dksuddeth

I think they should, it's obvious that our border patrol needs their expertise.

http://www.tdn.com/articles/2006/03/28/biz/news02.txt

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Paq

i think they should....but it would be a bit more effective if they patroled the SOUTHERN border, not the northern...

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martinguerre

Correct that to read: Peter Lanteri who lives all the way down state, but needed an excuse to buy a cabin and go fishing.

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Elphaba

Not necessarily, Paq. Ahmed Ressam (millennium bomber) nearly succeeded crossing into Washington with a trunk load of explosives. It was his nervous behavior that caused border guards to give him a second look.

Willravel

I'm protecting the boarder of my refrigerator. Anything less would be unpatriotic.

These people are morons. I have absolutely no clue as to where the idea of untrained civilians protecting our borders in the year 2006 came from. As someone who does volunteer my time to causes, I have to ask myself if these people could posibly find somewhere better to devote their free time. Did you know that 750,000 Americans are homeless on any given night, and over the course of a year as many as 2 million people experience homelessness for some period of time? I did because I devote some of my free time to helping people, not acting like an idiot.

Edit: vigilantiesm is for Batman. Are these people Batmen? I think not. If you want to protect our borders, vote accordingly next time or go fill out an application for INS.

feelgood

Great! We just changed our border from the world longest undefended border to the world longest defended border overnight

To make matter worse, it's being guarded by rednecks

No, I'm not serious

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Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

samcol

Why is it bad to uphold and defend the constitution when the government won't? Besides, they don't need to be trained because they aren't really enforcing laws or protecting the borders anyhow. All they are doing is reporting the illegal activity to the border patrol. As far as I know they haven't made any arrests. What is wrong with that?

Not every cause has to be as noble as helping the homeless. They may have different ideas than you do as to what is more important. That's not to say helping the homeless is bad at all, it's just a different issue. I'm sure time people spend watching TV or playing video games could be better spent as well, however at least they are getting involved.

BTW who would you vote for to protect the borders anyhow? My best guess would be the Constitution party or Libertaring party perhaps. Definetly not Republicans.

james t kirk

I definitely takes a certain type to want to run around at night in the woods pretending to be a soldier of sorts.

Plus, you just know that these clowns are running around packing heat. It's only a matter of time before someone gets shot.

I remember reading about these guys last year along the Alberta boarder, or something like that, they actually apprehended some 17 year old kid who would sneak across the boarder to visit his girlfriend who lived on the US side. Other than that, nothing.

The_Dunedan

Actually, the Minutemen do not usually carry firearms; you're thinking of Citizen Border Patrol or Ranch Rescue. The few Minutemen who do carry are packing sidearms only, although given the violence by "coyotes" on the US/Mex border, some shoulder-arms seem like an awfully good idea. Their organization's rules prohibit them from initiating contact, firing unless fired upon first, or attempting any "citizens arrest" type of action. They just call the US Border Patrol and report number, location, and direction of travel.

Why is it that everyone assumes that these are some sort of "Billy Bubba" types who just wanna "play soldier" and beat up on everyone they find? Is it not possible that they might, just maybe, have decent motives in mind? Is it not possible, just maybe, that they might know what they're doing? Is it not possible, just maybe, that they're not a bunch of racist asshats? Is it not possible, just maybe, that they're trying to help in a situation which can only be described as "bad and getting worse?"

Oh, that's right, they have guns. My bad.

silent_jay

This is what I have been waiting for, get enough rednecks with guns in the same place and one of them is bound to be shot, or they will shoot someone else. Now if they kill someone, are they going to be charged for murder? Or is this minutemen thing seen as patriotic in the US? I really don't know, seems useless to me.

It's rather funny that these people want to be weekend warriors, if they want to fight so bad, or help their country, why not sign up for the US military, they seem to need some people, or even the real border guards, at least then they'll get paid and have benefits.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

samcol

Man, some people are clueless to what this group is about. That would be a great army, a bunch of baby boomers and retiree's in lawn chairs. Not everyone can literally fight on the frontlines of every issue. This is nothing more than using freedom of speech to protest. No different than marching at a gay rights rally, camping outside Bush's ranch, or displaying a catchy political sticker on your car.

All they are trying to draw enough attention to the border issue that the government will ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. They aren't sneaking around in the woods with camo and automatic rifles or taking the law into their own hands.

They actually have more 'right' to do what they are doing than the mob that is marching in California currently because the minutemen actually have the right of free speech protected under the Constitution. Most from the march in CA do not.

Willravel

This isn't about stopping terrorism or dangerous people: it's about xenophobia. If they were successful in ridding the country of illegal aliens, our econemy would collapse. I've worked with many illegal aliens (though I will never say who or where, in order to protect them), and they are people just like the rest of us who want to work and live. They aren't taking the coveted jobs. The only reasonable explaination for the Minutemen is that "it's the law". Well, we have police for things like that.
I hope that the Minutemen aren't harassing and ratting out illegal aliens as a forem of entertainment.
Thank you for making my point. I voted for Badnarik last election. I may vote green next election, but it won't be republican, that's for sure.

I've spoken to several Minutemen when I visited a family down south. The Minutemen I spoke to are not Democrats, Constitutionalists, or Libertarians.

dksuddeth

The government (federal) isn't doing a whole lot about enforcing the southern border. The states and locals are handcuffed because its a 'federal' issue. WE are the people. WE are america, and if our governments not going to do the job, we will. It's not about xenophobia either ( I know, there are some racist people out there, i'm not talking about them) it's about respecting our laws. There is a legal way for them to get in the country. it's just easier for them to ignore it and do what they want. It costs us too much money.


It's not about entertainment. as far as I know, nobody is laughing as we detain them or while INS/Border Patrol is arresting them. If there are some doing it, they don't last long in the program.

Recently, there was a special election in Cali to fill a house seat. One of the candidates was the founder of the minuteman project. Why didn't he get elected as an independent? Because the people of that district got stupid again and voted for a major party candidate when they could have made a statement to the rest of the state/nation. I've no idea who i'll vote for in the national election yet, but i'll be voting for strayhorn in the governors race here.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Is the INS and border patrol really doing so badly that we need these people? And why now? Why were there not the big Watchmen organizations 10 years ago? Has immigration become worse? What I'm fishing for is that many if not all these people are out there out of fear. What fear? 9/11, the war on terror, the war in Iraq, anthrax, etc. When I was having my conversation with the gentelmen in the Watchmen down south, they each described hypothetical situations in which terrorists could walk across our borders. Yeesh.
I was just making the point that the comparison between watching tv and Watchmen-ing is a bit off.
We could have used the Watchmen to monitor the border between the US and Austria, now we have to deal with the governator. I still am not sure who I'm voting for in the next elections, but I was speaking of federal elections. As the border is a federal matter, it would be wise to vote for someone who shares your view on tighter borders. I'm not saying I'm for open borders, but all you need is a simple background check on Pedro to know he's not going to hurt anything but a few lawns. More freedom, then more security to maintain that freedom = happy Willravel.

The_Dunedan

The biggest problems, as I see it, are these;

1: Costs. While illegal immigrants do put more into the economy than they take out, the localized effects have been NASTY. Illegals comprise a huge segment of the farm/construction work sector in the Southern US, and have a pretty high rate of on-the-job injury. Also, they are exposed to diseases ( especially Tuberculosis and Typhoid ) which we have little experiance with in the US, these illnesses having been wiped out years ago. These strains of disease are frequently drug-resistant. All this adds up to lots of Illegals ( with no health insurance ) needing emergency care RIGHT NOW. They can't pay, so the hospitals write off the losses until they go bankrupt; something which is occurring with ever-increasing frequency along the southern border.

2: Population: The rate of illegal immigration has accelerated dramatically in the last few years, and a lot of people are starting to wonder if the job market can keep up with the growing supply of labour. An oversupply of labour depresses wages.

3: Disease: See above ( 1 ) regarding TB. Tuberculosis isn't the only ( or even the worst ) such concern; drug-resistant strains of Measels, Rubella, Typhus, Typhoid, and even Polio have popped up inside the US in recent years, mostly carried here by Illegal Immigrants who weren't checked and treated prior to entering the US.

4: Crime: It's an "open secret" on both sides of the border than the Fox Administration is using the US as a dumping-ground for criminals, in an effort to rid Mexico of some of its' nastier elements and relieve prison overcrowding. Worse yet, drug-smuggling cartels ( backed up by ex-military known as Zetas ) have been using various stretches of the US/Mexico border to bring drugs ( esp Cocaine ) into the US. Border Patrol agents and landowners are routinely fired upon and sometimes killed. Worst of all, the smugglers have driven the old-fashioned "Coyote" out of buisiness. Instead of simply charging money, they say "Sure, I'll get you to El Norte...but you gotta carry this 20K of Coke across the burning desert for me, and if you die or get lost or screw me over I'll kill your entire family after raping your teenage daughter, your wife, and your dog. Oh, and by the way, I'm not giving you any water or food, and these guys with guns are gonna follow you to make sure you don't get out of line." The situation is thereby made MUCH worse for the Illegals themselves, most of whom genuinely just want to come here and work.

5: Environmental damage and vandalism: A group of 500+ people walking through the desert does a LOT of damage. Fences destroyed, litter, water depletion, cattle stampeded or released, houses broken into...my uncle Parker had to deal with all of this and more besides in a one-year period. His dog was shot, over 400 head of cattle were released when a 10' fence was cut down with boltcutters, and his car was stolen no less than five times.

Opposition to illegal immigration isn't just racism and xenophobia, although it certainly does motivate some people. Lots of people have other, legitimate reasons for concern, and would really appreciate not being pidgeonholed as racist redneck trash simply because of it.

samcol

Willravel, your statements almost sound as if everything is working as intended on the borders. Do you see nothing wrong with the way immigration is being handled? I mean should we even bother to fix INS and border patrol or are you just for eliminating sovereignty all together.

I think you need to re-examine your views on this issue maybe. I mean BUSH of all people is against getting control of the borders and illegal immigration, and I know you don't tend to agree with most of what comes out of his mouth. I mean think about it, the government absolutely loves having a large, uneducated mass who has no protections under the constution, and are thrilled to death to live under conditions which most americans would consider sub-standard, to work for below average wages and can't speak or understand the very language our laws are written in.

I've seen them in court. It's all yes sir, yes mam, no sir yes mam, please sign here, 'ok'. These people have less of a clue about the law and rights than the average American and that is really sad. This is creating new age group of slaves. No rights, working for next to nothing, uneducated, and unable to do much about it due to language barriers. Yes, the government and corporations absolutely loves a mob that they can control.

Don't forget the pentagon waves that citizenship flag out there right next to the military sign up forms. Offer to get blown up in Iraq and you get your citizenship. If you are so concered about these illegal aliens where is your concern about their 2nd class citizen/slave status they are currently at, and what is to be done about it.

dksuddeth

Some of it is probably fear, but I think most of it has to do with how much it's costing us as taxpayers. One, for all the services that, by law, we have to provide for them and Two, if we're paying all these taxes for a border patrol and INS, we're not getting our moneys worth.


You get to blame hollywood and the bodybuilders association for that one.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Elphaba

I would like to add that the federal budget for our border patrol has been reduced several times under the current administration. I have no objection to citizen volunteers as long as they refrain from vigilantism. Frankly, they get more press than their small efforts deserve.

Willravel

I think that our econemy depends on the work these people provide. We should give them the opportuiny to work for a visa for the jobs that tehy havge to sneak over to get now. We should raise their wages, and then allow them to reapply after being sent back to Mexico. Immigration right now is a horrible mess, but the Minutemen are not the solution.
Yes, yes, Bush IS a moron and most everything he says is either dripping with lunacy or corporate control...and this is no different. I think that a reorganization is in order of our borders. Yes, we should regulate movement across our borders. No, Mexicans should not have to risk their lives to get here. Minutemen are not the answer.
This is a bit of a generalization. I worked in landscaping during HS, and worked with many very intelligent (from books, not school) Mexicans. I was able to discuss (in broken english) everything from advanced geometry to socio-economic issues between Mexico and the US with most if not all of them. Should there be more social programs for them? Yes, but there are many ESL courses in place already for them to take advantage of. I was involved in setting up an ESL class at a local church. The class was filled in no time and they all passed with flying colors. The corporations already have a mob they control, anyway.
Yes, the military option is a dangerous one that 'minotiries' should be warned about. I see this as a seperate issue from border patrol, though. If you're interested in saving people from being entrapped by military service, do what I do. I got the recruiters kicked out of 2 local malls, 4 local high schools, and am working on a local JC.

Willravel

I do agree that our current system is not working. I've seen first hand how it is both dangerous for those traveling across the border, and also is ineffective in capturing those who illegally cross. It's a lose/lose organization. I think that the Minutemen, while possibly having good intentions, will only extend the poor performance of a broken system.
Yeah, that's true. Either way, he's not going to be governer again.

Poppinjay

Back to the OP, doesn't patrolling the northern border suggest a little bit of stupidity? If anything, they would catch people trying to go north for cheap drugs.

As far as anecdotes about terrorists sneaking over the northern border, the minutemen don't have the training or equipment to catch them.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Willravel

Well we have to stop the maple syrup smugglers. (God bless them)

Well stated, Poppinjay.

Elphaba

Poppinjay, I hope you weren't considering this an anecdote:

It turns out than an unemployed county prosecuting attorney was involved in this snatch. Ressam actually was able to leave Canada via a ferry to Port Angeles, WA. He failed the snicker test when he arrived.

I find it doubtful that a group of volunteer citizens would have been any luckier than a former attorney with a border patrol badge. I believe it was also watchful citizens at our borders that detected unusual activity on the Canadian side that led to finding a tunnel crossing under the border.

I honestly don't have a problem with citizen involvement at our borders as long as they remain in a solely reporting capacity.

cdwonderful

but what are they doing about the americans sneaking into canada for the health care?

__________________
Never try to teach a pig to whistle
it wastes your time,
and annoys the pig.....

splck

I saw a show on these guys last year while in Washington state. Talk about a bunch of paranoid old guys. How many Canadians sneek into the US? It looks like a waste of time to me.

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nice line eh?

roachboy

why exactly is this a good idea?

i think most of the arguments against immigrants ridiculous, so that rationale would hold no water...
terrorists?
what are they exactly?
what do they look like?
how would these fine individuals know what they are looking for?
i dont feel anything good would come from a bunch of people wandering around the border with no particular training and no particular objective, looking for what they understood to be "suspicious"
i feel no particular danger emanates from the canadian border----this seems to me like a bid for respectability from extreme right milita groups--you know, making themselves useful in a situation of no particular concern, playing down the politics behind them in the interest of--well what?

it seems surreal to me.
i dont understand.

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Charlatan

This is just an excuse to get away for some Brokeback time with their buddies... They just can't quit the Canadian border.

__________________
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james t kirk

Dude, hate to tell you, anyone is "able to leave Canada" by simply hopping in their car and driving to the boarder.

It's not up to Canada to catch them leaving, it's up to whatever country to catch them entering.

All this guy does is prove that the system worked.

The same goes for those leaving the USA. The US gov't doesn't care about people leaving the US, doesn't search them, doesn't ask them a single question. They collect the toll before you cross the bridge and that's about it.

Elphaba

I'm well aware of that, and I don't see where I implied otherwise. And it's "dudette" to you Captain.

Poppinjay

I would say a prosecuting attorney, unemployed or no, has a tremendous deal more training in criminal matters than most of the Minute Men.

You're right though, it doesn't count as an anecdote for this topic. It lends more credence to the idea that the regular border system is working correctly.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

silent_jay

Not clueless about this group at all, thank you very much, but I do appreciate you trying to explain things to me.

Do people who march at gay right's rally's carry firearms? No. Do people outside Dubya's ranch carry firearms? No. Are people displaying catchy political stickers carrying firearms? Once again no.

Since when does the right to free speech mean you can patrol the border with firearms? Seems you are really trying to stretch the free speech thing to the edge.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

The_Dunedan

1: And since when is there any legal ( read; Constitutional ) limitation against the bearing of arms on public property, or on private property when the Bearer has the Owner's permission?

2: As stated before, these people rarely carry guns, never carry shoulder-arms, and have never been involved in a violent incident; more than one can say for the flesh-smugglers which operate on both borders.

3: Actually, yes, they do. Check out The Pink Pistols. My sister and mother are both members.
This one sure is! Sidearm at ( nearly ) all times, rifle with 100 rounds in the trunk at all times. Free speech is meaningless unless you have the will and the means to back it up.

silent_jay

Good to know paranoia is still alive and well in the US. Rifle with 100 rounds and ready to fight for free speech, I find this absolutely hilarious, like free speech is attacked to the point where citizens need to carry firearms, give me a freaking break.

Free speech and national security seem to be the new excuses for everything.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

dksuddeth

not sure WHY you centered on the firearms deal, but here goes. Those on the minutemen project did NOT use their firearms except for two reasons.

1) If they were threatened by any illegals that happened to escape their notice or any of the groups that were protesting them (read that as calling them racists) got too close and physical

2) or for their personal self defense.

At no time were ANY of the minutemen allowed to use weapons to detain any illegals crossing the border. The only interaction they intended to have was to render any first aid or humanitarian support (food/water) until the border patrol showed up.

Being that the border states of Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California Do NOT infringe on their citizens rights to bear arms, it should never be an issue that they had them doing the project.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dksuddeth

Nice non-sequitor, however, If there was a group of people physically intimidating a protest group (like some gay rights march) and the intimidating group was getting violent, I don't doubt that Dune-dan would pull that rifle and 100 rounds out to defend those marching, as would I.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

The_Dunedan

Damn straight. My arms exist for the purpose of defending -all- person's Liberties, not just my own.

And as for free speech being attacked, where have YOU been for the last 15+ years? You can now be locked up, without trial or representation, for just about ANYthing. If you try to speak about the Fully Informed Jury Association, you can be thrown in prison for Contempt, even though the absolute right of the Jury to Nullify was EXPLICITLY known to and mentioned by judges until well into the 1930s. Protestors are routinely herded into "free speech zones" so as not to offend the eyes of El Preidente; this has been going on since Clinton's first term.
Tell me free speech isn't being attacked, and I'll call you a liar to your face.

Lebell

Give it up Dunedan.

They don't want to give up their pre-formed opinions of who the minute men are.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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silent_jay

Yeah that's it, I must be a liar

Defending all persons liberties, this is just too funny, keep up the protecting, although I'm not too sure what the point is. Saying you need 100 rounds and a rifle to protect yours and everyone elses liberties is just too funny to me, I mean seriously, freaking hilarious.

Yep that's it Lebell, pre-formed opinion,I guess your opinion is pre-formed that they are great people and well if that's the case no use in me wasting typing the words to try and change your mind or open your eyes to a different perspective, because the blinders are on.

Have fun protecting liberties with your guns, let me know how that turns out.

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

ubertuber

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam