Images of the Prophet Muhammad - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Mojo_PeiPei · 02-10-2006, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillyPete

One of my favourite films "Boondock Saints" uses the line:
"Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."

This is my fear, that the good muslims remain indifferent, as the good Germans once did.

Very well put.

Dragonlich · 02-10-2006, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

The newspaper should apologize because it directly led to a boycott which is crippling the Danish economy. If people lose their jobs, companies go under, and cutbacks are caused because less government income... you dont think the editor should apologize or be fired?

No I do not. I happen to believe our rights are worth fighting for. If that means facing a trade war with the Muslim world, I'm game. I'm too damn stubborn to give in to such threats.

By the way, I very much doubt that a boycot from the Muslim world will "cripple" the Danish economy. I also doubt that the EU will allow one of their member states to be bullied into submission. As EU officials have already stated: a boycot of Danish goods is in fact a boycot of EU goods.

Seaver · 02-10-2006, 01:14 PM

Quote:

I also doubt that the EU will allow one of their member states to be bullied into submission.

I'd be completely surprised if they DID prevent one of their member states from being bullied.

Until Europe wakes up, they're a lame duck with their head stuck in the sand hoping the hunter won't shoot because they're minding their own business.

martinguerre · 02-13-2006, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Yes but they wish to have you killed, do you wish to do the same to them?

I'm a little pickier on which ones. But i shouldn't need to mention those in the West who are not nearly so discriminating in who they think is a legitimate target of violence due to terrorist activity on the US. I think the whole flypaper thesis, that we fight "them" over in Iraq so that we don't have it happen here is an extension of this imparticularity. We'd rather inflict collateral damage than have it inflicted on us.

Which i suppose is a self-protecting rhetoric and stratagy. But it clearly displays some striking parallels to the disregard of civilian status in those groups that we call terrorists. What else is terror, but shock and awe?

Seaver · 02-13-2006, 09:21 PM

Quote:

I think the whole flypaper thesis, that we fight "them" over in Iraq so that we don't have it happen here is an extension of this imparticularity. We'd rather inflict collateral damage than have it inflicted on us.

DING DING DING! You've stumbled on the very reason people form governments. To protect us from outsiders attacking/killing us.

trickyy · 02-14-2006, 08:31 PM

this is great...

Jews To Iran: We Can and Will Make Better Anti-Semitic Cartoons Than You
http://www.boomka.org/

Quote:

Israel-based Dimona Comix, and founder of the contest jokes, “We’ll show the world we can do the best, sharpest, most offensive Jew hating cartoons ever published! No Iranian will beat us on our home turf!”

Sandy is now in the process of arranging sponsorships of large organizations, and promises lucrative prizes for the winners, including of course the famous Matzo-bread baked with the blood of Christian children.

martinguerre · 02-14-2006, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

DING DING DING! You've stumbled on the very reason people form governments. To protect us from outsiders attacking/killing us.

The same reason they formed Al-Queda?

Mojo_PeiPei · 02-14-2006, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

The same reason they formed Al-Queda?

I may be totally off base here, but...

Al Qaeda is based off centuries based humiliation, the sick man most relevantly( by my texts).

Historically, the sole purpose of a government is to form protection for a sovereign group... Read that, Shrub swears an oath to the constitution to uphold and protect our laws, he holds no feality to some Arabs or some global powers, he is beholden to the American people.

Where is this disconnection? Since when is Osama, Al Zarqawi, Al- Zarwhirwi- any fundamentalist Islamist close to the reality we have?

Seriously I think the majority of the people here have no idea about Al Qaeda, they equate it with the Soviet resistance, the fact that Americans funded the Pakistani ISI, to them the evil Taliban.

I am sensing some serious ignorance. Some cut your nose to spite the face type shit. America is always teh bad guye we are teh evile^ empire!!!~ iT'S always about the politic!

Ustwo · 02-14-2006, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

The same reason they formed Al-Queda?

This is a level of moral relativism that has reached a height I can not even see the top.

Honestly....if you can not see a difference....ummm....

martinguerre · 02-15-2006, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

This is a level of moral relativism that has reached a height I can not even see the top.

Honestly....if you can not see a difference....ummm....

I'm aware of the differences.

But there is an odd level of congruence.

And i don't think it's a stunning hieght of anything to point it out.

As i said, i'm not evaluating these rhetorics. I'm just taking them at face value, and setting them up against one another. I'm not postulating that because there are some congruences that these things are morally equivalent in all areas, or that they are equally persuasive as claims to existance. I'm not asking anything about those evaluations...they don't interest me much.

What i'm saying is why they may be particularlly illsuited at dealing with each other. We're going to have a devil of a time trying to marginalize a group that earnestly beleives it's formed for the defense of "civilization as they know it." Especially when our conduct is primarily regulated by concern for our continued existance, and is based on force. Pontificate all ya like, but for the average civilian in a combat zone, they're going to experience war/terrorism in pretty similar ways.

"Centuries of Humiliation" or not...they have an idea of civilization and have offered several ways of defending it in the global arena. Based on the power differential in the current situation...it's not going to be a head to head competition. The question isn't: Which claim is morally superior?

The moral high ground and 2.50 gets you the happy meal.

The question is how to make our claims more persuasive. Yes, you'd be right to point out that force can be awfully persuasive. But it has failure points as well. We didn't surrender when NYC got hit. They aren't surrendering now.

aKula · 02-15-2006, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

I'd be completely surprised if they DID prevent one of their member states from being bullied.

Until Europe wakes up, they're a lame duck with their head stuck in the sand hoping the hunter won't shoot because they're minding their own business.

And what exactly should they be doing in this situation? What has made them a lame duck with their head stuck in the sand?

roachboy · 02-15-2006, 06:35 AM

this edito is from today's guardian:

Quote:

Denmark's new values

What was once a liberal country lurched to the far right while the world was not looking

Kiku Day
Wednesday February 15, 2006
The Guardian

Denmark has at last managed to catch the world's eye, after so many years of failing to get credit for being at the cutting edge of liberalism. But the inelegant handling of the controversy over the cartoons of the prophet Muhammad is the result of a country that has been moving in the direction of xenophobia and racism - especially towards its Muslim inhabitants.

The world needs to realise that the Denmark that helped Jews flee from Nazi deportation is long gone. A new Denmark has appeared, a Denmark of intolerance and a deep-seated belief in its cultural superiority.

We were a liberal and tolerant people until the 1990s, when we suddenly awoke to find that for the first time in our history we had a significant minority group living among us. Confronted with the terrifying novelty of being a multicultural country, Denmark took a step not merely to the right but to the far right. Now, politicians of most stripes have embraced ignorance.

The Social Democrats, formerly Denmark's largest party and the force behind its postwar social reforms, were forced to realise that the rhetoric of solidarity and social reforms no longer impressed voters in an increasingly prosperous economy. To win support mainstream politicians felt they needed to bully the same scapegoat blamed by the far right for the social problems arising in modern Danish society, in the form of the Muslim minority. The rhetoric of politicians and media hardened and became offensive. Where else could liberal politicians get away with saying that one of their party's main aims is to stop Turkey joining the EU?

The discussion has focused on freedom of expression, but that is not what Jyllands-Posten had in mind when it published the caricatures, nor is it the prime mission of the rightwing Danish government. Denmark has embarked on a self-declared crusade to tell others how to live. The prime minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, is quoted as saying: "Freedom of speech should be used to provoke and criticise political or religious authoritarians."

The Danish establishment weighed in on its leader's side. The rightwing newspaper Weekendavisen - at one time Denmark's foremost intellectual journal - justified Rasmussen's initial reaction of indifference to complaints about the cartoons and his refusal to meet with 10 concerned ambassadors from Muslim countries as "a desire for an activist foreign policy which has clashed with the traditional diplomatic wish to smooth things over". An MEP, Mogens Camre, declared: "It is 2005 and there is no reason whatsoever to respect foolish superstition in any form."

Following the lead of the moderates, the founder of the ultra-rightwing Danish People's party, Pia Kjærsgaard, felt emboldened to say that in order to qualify for citizenship, immigrants must not only master the Danish language but be examined on their respect for Danish society and its values. The words "Danish values" are repeated reverentially, as if all Danes possess a single mindset opposed to that held by Muslims. Kjærsgaard tells her countrymen the issue is not one of cartoons, but concerns rather a titanic struggle of values between totalitarian, dogmatic Islamic regimes and the freedom and liberty beloved of western democracies. Meanwhile the 200,000 Muslims living in Denmark have been denied a permit to build a mosque in Copenhagen. There is not a single Muslim cemetery in the country.

It is now obvious that Flemming Rose, the culture editor at Jyllands-Posten who commissioned the cartoonists to satirise the prophet, exhibited a striking lack of judgment. His subsequent decision to salvage things by planning to publish anti-semitic and anti-Christian caricatures went beyond the bounds of the permissible in Jyllands-Posten's and Denmark's crusade for free speech. Chief editor Carsten Juste finally intervened and sent Rose on indefinite leave.

An indefinite holiday is not enough. As the former foreign minister and Venstre party leader Uffe Elleman-Jensen has suggested, we need editors who realise that just bad judgment can have important consequences. Both Juste and Rose need to step down.

And how have ordinary Danes reacted? The People's party reported that last week it had received almost 17 times as many applications for membership as normal. Is this the future for Denmark? These are the new "Danish values", and the world needs to be aware of the dangers of a country that went off on the wrong track while nobody noticed.

· Kiku Day is a Danish musician living in London

source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...709754,00.html

this article poses some interesting questions about a context that has, curiously enough, dropped away in the conversations about this cartoon cartoon controversy.

i would be curious to hear what nancy makes of it (or someone else who is in situ)---for myself, my close-ish acquaintance with things danish starts and stops with kierkegaard, so....

but it does point to an important matter that was discussed at length in the general discussion thread on this, but which has not reappeared in this thread--which i took to be in part motivated in order to make this topic safe against for extreme rightwing views to be circulated. so it has gone.

the issue is the drift into neofascist discursive terrain that so many folk above, and in the other thread, simply undertook without seeming to be aware of it.

the problem is that this terrain is unmarked in the u.s.: it is an aspect of mainstream conservative ideology, this repellent discourse that redefines a national community along racial and religious lines on the basis of caricatures of the muslim Other.

i feel no need to go through the entire demonstration again--suffice it to say that the interpretations being run out of this controversy, and the views of islam that one sees elaborated as a function of it, are as much if not more a problem than are the actions in response to the cartoons that this thread is set up to complain about.

all the arguments presented in the general discussion thread about the basically racist character of much conservative "understanding" of islam obtains here as well--switching forums does not obviate the critiques

it is curious, the extent to which this thread has so far functioned as if the other one did not happen.

but this edito raises many of the same questions.

Seaver · 02-15-2006, 07:08 AM

Quote:

The same reason they formed Al-Queda?

No. Our country and our loyalty TO the country does not stem from a direct justification of the destruction of other countries and a plan to completely eradicate other people (though what we did to the Natives was despicable, it was not part of the charter that started us).

Quote:

And what exactly should they be doing in this situation? What has made them a lame duck with their head stuck in the sand?

What made them a lame duck?

The fact that European countries have more terrorist organizations in their own countries than exist in Afghanistan. For example 60% of Muslims in England freely admit to admiring Bin Laden.

The fact that said Bin Laden-loving Muslims are soon to control the European countries, and instead of trying to incorporate them, they're locking them up in ghettos making the problem worse.

The fact that they think that ignoring the problems, compounding the problems by racism, then tapping themselves on the back for being "multicultural".

If they wake up and file charges against these Imams that openly cry for Jihad they might be able to shake off the Lame-Duck description.

Quote:

We're going to have a devil of a time trying to marginalize a group that earnestly beleives it's formed for the defense of "civilization as they know it." Especially when our conduct is primarily regulated by concern for our continued existance, and is based on force.

You know, that might work if they were raised in the 7th Century. Unfortunately for "civilization as they know it" does not work because they're crying for a civilization that at best occured a thousand years ago, and in more reality never really existed.

martinguerre · 02-15-2006, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

No. Our country and our loyalty TO the country does not stem from a direct justification of the destruction of other countries and a plan to completely eradicate other people (though what we did to the Natives was despicable, it was not part of the charter that started us).

I think i'm at least slightly more sympathetic than you seem to be assuming here...

I'm at least nominally an American, a member of the lucky sperm club born into relative prosperity in the first world. But i'm enough of a cultural outsider to see that it's that luck that's primary to me having an American ID, and not some ontological difference between me and others.

So yes, i understand that our nation has a different national mythos (a term i use as a non-perjorative description of the world-view and sense of history and kinship that produces ethnic or national idenity) and historical character than al-queda does.

But they both form in reaction to imperial power...the difference is that we do so by usurpation, the redefining of primarily British values as now "American" values. We look fairly similar, and later become allies, etc.

They too are reacting to imperial presenece, but do not do so from within, and so have a very different vocabulary and appearance. But functionally, they still have to mediate the process of being on the outs with the major world power of the day.

So how do we respond? I don't think the answer is to say there's no difference between us...and that it's all basically the same. I don't think that.

But there's a claim that seems to be substrate to our discussion here that they will understand violence. I don't know that they will. As i tried to say, we didn't "understand" their violence on 9/11. We reacted against it.

They didn't "understand" our actions previously, and they do not "understand" our actions in Iraq now. Violence, like other forms of communication, is proving to be fairly unintelligible.

War alledges that it provides a resolution to dispute, whose authority is not external to it's nature...namely that war really decides things in a way that other dispute resolutions cannot. But the failure of war to provide this irrefutable resolution to the cultural conflicts between western nationalism and Arab unrest seems to me to be rather damning of it as a authoritative tactic.

I'm asking...what does work? We have these cartoons being used by both sides to reinforce the boundaries of both groups. Is that desirable? Are we content to fire back at one another? Because the promise of violence and escalation to relieve the tension is an empty one.

DJ Happy · 02-16-2006, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

When the government, religion, press, and schools condone certain activities, is it the 'population' or is it just the 'extremists'?

Are only 'extremists' protesting over cartoons?

Are only 'extremists' meeting in Iran for a holocost denial convention?

How many people does it take for the 'extreme' to become 'the norm'?

Which governments are condoning the violent protests? Which schools, which press? Do you even consume any Middle Eastern media? I do, and I can tell you I've not seen ANYONE OF THEM condoning the violence.

DJ Happy · 02-16-2006, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locobot

I have respect for Condoleeza Rice for coming out and condemning middle-east leaders who are using this controversy to incite hatred and violence.

Which is strange, seeing as that is what the cartoons themselves have done.

There are a number of other issues here that need to be considered:

1. Why were there no protests when the cartoons were originally published in September 2005? Why did things only heat up once the cartoons were republished in January 2006? Why were they republished?

2. Why did the same newspaper refuse to publish cartoons satirising Jesus in 2003? What happened to 'freedom of speech' then?

3. Why has the editor of Jyllands-Posten who originally published the cartoons been ordered on a 'leave of absence' after saying he would publish the Iranian cartoons satirising the Holocaust?

Mojo_PeiPei · 02-16-2006, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Happy

Which governments are condoning the violent protests? Which schools, which press? Do you even consume any Middle Eastern media? I do, and I can tell you I've not seen ANYONE OF THEM condoning the violence.

Iran? They think this whole thing is another jab at Islam by the evil zionists.

Charlatan · 02-16-2006, 08:38 AM

Iran is not as cut and dry as many here would like to believe.

Those who are in power right now are in the minority in a big way. The vast majority of the population is under 30 and a good portion of that is under 22. This young group don't know or even want to know about the revolution (the overthrow of the Shah). They are mostly concerned with music and partying. They barely register in the vote... and yet they are the majority.

Give it 10 to 15 years and these young, materialistic party-goers are going to grow up, have jobs and still want the freedoms they currently enjoy. They will bring about the change.

Currently, the vast majority of those who are protesting in the streets are connected with the current corrupt government that resides in power. The protests are not a natural grassroots thing. They are organized political propaganda (for lack of a better word). Just another way of thumbing their nose at the west.

Ten to fifteen years and time is ticking.

Nimetic · 02-16-2006, 03:51 PM

I'm with Charlatan I believe on this.

First up, I'm not keen on some of the teachings that I hear from Islam. I'm unimpressed also by the behaviour of many of it's followers.

Having said that, I feel that we need to put this in context. The countries in which much of this unrest is occuring seem to have

- high levels of poverty
and/or - non-democratic government (and associated media ownership issues)
and/or - lower levels literacy and exposure to science/philosophy etc.
than we have in the west

These people have not seen the same debates as us. Their experience, knowledge and culture is different - they are unlikely to have effective access/understanding of English news sites for example. At the same time, they are physically closer to the Palestine-Israel conflict. They see the more questionable aspects of "western" policy and military interventions first-hand.

Even then, we are still seeing riots carried out by a minority. There are groups of people in all countries who are capable of bad behaviour. Look at the situation during Katrina, during LA riots, the mini riots here in Au (Cronulla beach).

It seems to me that a key factor behind the current situation is that communication networks have made local messages global in reach - but there has not been an equivalent interplay, averaging effect or balancing of beliefs at this time.

zz0011 · 02-17-2006, 05:41 PM

Cleric Offers $1 Million to Kill 'Cursed Man'

Quote:

Las Vegas SUN
Today: February 17, 2006 at 12:2:4 PST

Cleric Offers $1 Million to Kill 'Cursed Man'
By RIAZ KHAN
ASSOCIATED PRESS

PESHAWAR, Pakistan (AP) -

A Pakistani cleric announced a $1 million bounty for killing a cartoonist who drew the Prophet Muhammad caricatures, as thousands rallied across the country Friday and authorities arrested scores of protesters.

Police put another Islamist leader under house detention amid fears religious radicals would incite more deadly demonstrations after Friday prayers. Five people have been killed in Pakistan this week during protests, but most demonstrations Friday were peaceful.

In Denmark, where the prophet drawings were first published in September, the government said Friday it had temporarily closed its embassy in Pakistan following the violent protests this week.

Pakistan recalled its ambassador to Denmark for "consultations" about the caricatures, a Foreign Ministry spokeswoman said.

Mohammed Yousaf Qureshi, prayer leader at the historic Mohabat Khan mosque in the conservative northwestern city of Peshawar, announced the mosque and the Jamia Ashrafia religious school he leads would give a $25,000 reward and a car for killing the cartoonist who drew the prophet caricatures - considered blasphemous by Muslims.

He also said a local jewelers' association would give $1 million but no representative of the association was available to confirm the offer.

"Whoever has done this despicable and shameful act, he has challenged the honor of Muslims. Whoever will kill this cursed man, he will get $1 million from the association of the jewelers bazaar, 1 million rupees ($16,700) from Masjid Mohabat Khan and 500,000 rupees ($8,350) and a car from Jamia Ashrafia as a reward," Qureshi told about 1,000 people outside the mosque after Friday prayers.

"This is a unanimous decision of by all imams (prayer leaders) of Islam that whoever insults the prophets deserves to be killed and whoever will take this insulting man to his end, will get this prize."

Qureshi did not name any cartoonist in his announcement and did not appear to be aware that 12 different people had drawn the pictures. The crowd outside the mosque burned a Danish flag and an effigy of the Danish prime minister.

The Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten first printed the prophet drawings by 12 cartoonists in September. The newspaper has since apologized to Muslims for the drawings, one of them showing Muhammad wearing a bomb-shaped turban with an ignited fuse.

Other Western newspapers, mostly in Europe but also some in the United States, have reprinted the pictures, asserting their news value and the right to freedom of expression.

A spokesman for Jyllands-Posten did not want to comment on Qureshi's offer.

"We are not going to discuss this with that kind of people," Tage Clausen said.

The cartoonists have gone underground and lived under police protection since the conflict started escalating last year. The president of the Danish Journalist Union, Mogens Blicher Bjerregaard, who is a spokesman for the cartoonists, would not say whether security surrounding them had been increased.

The publication of the drawings set off weeks of protests across the Muslim world in which at least 19 people have been killed, most of them in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

In Islamabad, former President Clinton criticized the drawings but said Muslims wasted an opportunity to build better ties with the West by mounting violent protests.

"I can tell you most people in the United States deeply respect Islam ... and most people in Europe do," he said.

Clerics at mosques across Pakistan condemned the caricatures at Friday prayers.

"Give enough power to the Muslim countries and enable them to take revenge," said Qari Saeed Ullah, a prayer leader in Islamabad.

Thousands of demonstrators defied a ban on rallies in Punjab, one of Pakistan's four provinces. Thousands of security forces were deployed across the country to prevent unrest.

Police arrested 125 protesters for violating the ban on rallies in eastern Pakistan and 70 others after firing tear gas to disperse protests in the southern city of Karachi.

In Peshawar, where violent protests Wednesday left two dead and scores injured, police fired tear gas to disperse more than 1,000 people trying to block a street. Four effigies representing Danish, German, French and Norwegian leaders were hanged from lampposts.

Police in eastern Punjab province were ordered to restrict the movement of all religious leaders who might address rallies and to round up religious activists who could threaten law and order.

In Multan, another city in Punjab, about 300 police detained 125 protesters, who gathered at a traffic circle, chanting, "We are slaves of the prophet," and trampling on a Danish flag, police official Sharif Zafar said.

Zafar said they had violated the ban on rallies in Punjab - declared after deadly riots in Lahore on Tuesday.

Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, chief of the radical group Jamaat al-Dawat, became the first religious leader detained by authorities since protests began in Pakistan early this month. He was due to make a speech in Faisalabad, about 75 miles away.

Intelligence officials have said scores of members of Jamaat al-Dawat and assorted militant groups joined the Lahore protest Tuesday and incited the violence in a bid to undermine President Gen. Pervez Musharraf's government, a close ally of the United States.

Witnesses said about 7,000 people protested in Rawalpindi, near the capital, while about 5,000 demonstrated in the southwestern city of Quetta. There were no immediate reports of violence. About 5,000 people protested in Karachi in small-scale rallies, and 70 were arrested, said Rauf Siddiqi, the regional home minister.

Denmark's decision to close its embassy comes after the government temporarily closed its embassies in Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Indonesia last week amid anti-Danish protests and threats against staff.

"We have decided to do so because of the general security situation in the country," Foreign Ministry spokesman Lars Thuesen said of the Pakistani closure. "Our staff are still in the country but not at the embassy in Islamabad."

Reporters Without Borders, a leading media watchdog group, urged the release of six journalists held in Algeria and Yemen for reprinting the prophet drawings.

In India, police used batons and tear gas to disperse several thousand angry Muslims worshippers who rioted over the drawings, police said. The protesters burned Danish flags, pelted police with stones, and looted shops after Friday prayers in Hyderabad, a city of 7 million people, nearly half of them Muslim.

Thousands of Hong Kong Muslims also marched Friday to condemn the caricatures.

02-16-2006, 08:38 AM	#58 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Iran is not as cut and dry as many here would like to believe. Those who are in power right now are in the minority in a big way. The vast majority of the population is under 30 and a good portion of that is under 22. This young group don't know or even want to know about the revolution (the overthrow of the Shah). They are mostly concerned with music and partying. They barely register in the vote... and yet they are the majority. Give it 10 to 15 years and these young, materialistic party-goers are going to grow up, have jobs and still want the freedoms they currently enjoy. They will bring about the change. Currently, the vast majority of those who are protesting in the streets are connected with the current corrupt government that resides in power. The protests are not a natural grassroots thing. They are organized political propaganda (for lack of a better word). Just another way of thumbing their nose at the west. Ten to fifteen years and time is ticking. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

02-16-2006, 03:51 PM	#59 (permalink)
Nimetic Junkie Location: Melbourne, Australia	I'm with Charlatan I believe on this. First up, I'm not keen on some of the teachings that I hear from Islam. I'm unimpressed also by the behaviour of many of it's followers. Having said that, I feel that we need to put this in context. The countries in which much of this unrest is occuring seem to have - high levels of poverty and/or - non-democratic government (and associated media ownership issues) and/or - lower levels literacy and exposure to science/philosophy etc. than we have in the west These people have not seen the same debates as us. Their experience, knowledge and culture is different - they are unlikely to have effective access/understanding of English news sites for example. At the same time, they are physically closer to the Palestine-Israel conflict. They see the more questionable aspects of "western" policy and military interventions first-hand. Even then, we are still seeing riots carried out by a minority. There are groups of people in all countries who are capable of bad behaviour. Look at the situation during Katrina, during LA riots, the mini riots here in Au (Cronulla beach). It seems to me that a key factor behind the current situation is that communication networks have made local messages global in reach - but there has not been an equivalent interplay, averaging effect or balancing of beliefs at this time.