shakran

First off, wanna try not posting 200 posts in a row? Learn how the quote= function works.

Had I been a journalist back then, I'd have reported on the facts. The japanese were obviously defeatable, since we defeated them. We got hit hard, but not hard enough to knock us out. FWIW, even though we knew it was coming and let it happen so we could get into the war, the Japanese DID attack us - so there WAS justification to go after them. You keep conveniently forgetting that Iraq (and Vietnam for that matter) did not attack us, and did not even pose a threat to us if they decided to attack us.

Comparing WWII and vietnam/iraq is apples and artichokes.





Don't be dense. How are we supposed to bet? You don't know my name. I don't know yours. How are you going to send me the money when I win?



I didn't refer to them as that either. Let's not forget, however, that WE were invading THEIR homeland. While I'd never condone torture, it's pretty understandable that these guys would be pissed off about it, don't you think? And since not every culture holds the same values that we do, perhaps we shouldn't be surprised when they do things like that to people who have royally pissed them off.


Bullshit. All was lost. That's why we lost. When you get right down to it, whether you and I support a war doesn't have anything to do with military operations. Me protesting a war is not going to cause our bombs to kill fewer people. We're talking about the US military, the best-trained fighting force on the planet, and possessor of the best killing technology on the planet, against a bunch of guys that, comparitively, are fighting with sticks. If we'd been serious about winning Vietnam, we'd have won vietnam.

In the first place, Cronkite did give a shit. In the second place, it's difficult to predict how people will react to a story. In the third place, sometimes you have to run with the truth EVEN IF bad things will happen as a result. We are not here to make everything happy and fluffy and nice. We are here to deliver the news, not disneyland.




Funny how an overwhelming majority of the service members I've met wish vietnam had never happened, wish they'd never been there, and are still pissed off at the government for forcing them to go there. Of course, a lot of those vets are in VA hospitals still suffering from debilitations they picked up in that fun little war, so maybe they're not as hoo-rah gung ho as the guys hoisting glasses at the VFW.


Well let's look at that quote. . .

So even if it is "full of shit" as you so nicely claim I will say, then it's full of shit on my side. It's widely seen, THOUGH PERHAPS INCORRECTLY.

Actually while Tet was a military victory for the US, it also showed that the other side had a damn near inexhaustible supply of men and women ready to replace the ones we killed.

And by the way, I won't say it's "full of shit" but I will say that responsible journalists / debaters don't use wiki as a primary source since it IS written by a bunch of random people who may or may not be qualified to report on what they're writing about. So you can use it if you want, but you take the risk of using inaccurate statements in your arguments.

And regarding your "It's just you" reply to Rekna, wrong again Ace. Pan's already posted agreement, and now I'm posting mine as well.

Marvelous Marv

It's quite obvious that the only reason you want to know is to try to discredit me. However, I'll give you something of an answer anyway, although I choose not to be too specific. Posting too many personal details would be unwise, considering the number of flat-out nutcases I've observed lately.

I am a former miltary officer. Not a very high-ranking one, since I didn't make it a career.

However, my life and profession have put me in close contact with a great many past and present high-ranking officers. I am on a first-name basis with two retired SurfPacs (Commander-in-chief of Surface Forces in the Pacific). I play golf with their former chief-of-staff. I also have lunch a couple of times a month with a former head of the Sixth Fleet, who was also head of all NATO forces in the middle east. He has known every president since Truman. We have had many discussions regarding that area of the world, and terrorism. (He was on Saddam's death list, and occasionally still has Marines living in his house for security.)

I lived with a Navy SEAL who actually served in Vietnam, unlike so many people I meet who claim to have served there. He's now deceased.

I number among my friends at least ten pilots who served in Vietnam. One was a POW for six years there.

I have had many discussions with an admiral who is presently tasked with building two new teams, whose mission is to combat networks, not nations. Another invited my son to DC and got him a tour of Secret Service headquarters. He knows Bush, but Bush wasn't at the White House at the time, so my son didn't get to meet him. I have never met President Bush.

So admittedly, my own military credentials are unremarkable, but I feel comfortable saying I have heard a great deal more firsthand, authentic information than most people.

Now that that's over with (although I'm sure you're not satisfied), what are YOUR military credentials, and on what do you base your knowledge of things military?


Because it's a bullshit term.

Kerry's Bronze Star
Scroll down to the bottom. I recommend downloading the .pdf rather than trying to open it via the browser.

I would have linked to the bronze star on Kerry's site, but "for some reason" it's no longer on it. Oh, and my friend asked John Lehman if he remembered signing it, and he said "no." Said it could have been an autopen.

But if you'd like a more detailed discussion of it, here's a link:

Discussion of Kerry's Bronze Star

Now, do you intend to retract the remark about "embarrassing myself," or will you just continue to make uninformed, asshat attacks?

It's obvious to even a novice political observer that he was selected by the Democrats to make the statement because he had a good military record. If you don't think his party rewarded him, you are indeed naive. He also had the added benefit of getting his name in every newspaper in the country.


I have a great rejoinder in mind regarding your occupation, but I'll let your immature remark stand all by itself.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

pan6467

Make sure you post the WHOLE post and not just what you want.

My e-mail addy is very open all you have to do is go ot my profile.

So if you served and you know all these people, then you should be outraged at the attacks for political gain on these war heroes' decorations and service.

You point to others military experience as though they have no right to talk because they know not of what they say..... That is what you convey.

And yet it is ok for DRAFT DODGERS to attack men who did serve?????

That gives me reason to doubt any of your credentials as being true.

I DID serve in the Navy, my dad's brother was a lifer in the AF and served in Vietnam plus was one of the chosen as backup for the Iran Embassy rescue.

One of my dad's sister's husband was one of the best AF fighter pilots in Vietnam, until he snapped and shot an innocent village. He retired and let us just state that he lived in the Middle east for sometime as a government representative. Later he lived in Oceana and taught as a civilian.

His 2 sons are both well trained fighter pilots and are among the best.

My best friend's father was Marine Recon during Nam.

2 of my father's closest friends were Marines who served in Nam and I have heard many of their stories as far back as I remember. NOONE was a saint in Vietnam.

My mother's father was a highly decorated Army WW2 veteran who served under Patton.

I have many contacts in the military from family, friends, my service time in and my profession.

THOSE are my credentials to speak out.

Like I said, you want to take on Murtha for his beliefs now, that's cool...... but to attack his military record is fucking bullshit and disrespectful to any man who served.

Why serve and get decorated if 20-30-40 years down the road, someone for political gain attacks your service and sacrifices you made for your country?????????

Especially by draft dodging fucks who now are so gung ho for war. You as a veteran should be offended by that.

Especially if you were so offended by what Murtha said and of the belief it hurt morale.

What I believe hurts morale far more is watching Fucking Draft DODGERS, who are fucking pieces of hypocrical shit, send people to war and attack war heroes while they did all they could to avoid going to war.

That is the true crime and topic here. Not someone who is posting here's credentials.

Do I agree with what Murtha said about Iraq? I don't know, to be honest I didn't pay attention, because I have my views and I don't need a politician to tell me how to believe.


Marv, you used to bring good debate but all isee in this thread is you attacking and being bitter..... yet not defending or refuting the attacks on Murtha's decorated military career.

It's bullshit, it's being done by power hungry pieces of shit and you know it.

If they truly believed in what they were doing now in Iraq, and they truly believed they were right..... then they would debate the issue and not have to attack a war heroe's record....... But they are, so what does that tell you????????

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Ustwo

Yes touching that you lup that photo into your argument. Ununiformed commando murderers are now a symbol of a population yearing for freedom

I do enjoy this as somehow an attempt to avoid debate, when the lefts solution isn't debate its defeat. I hope you boys keep it up, we have an election in a year.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Poppinjay

And the debate of this thread is what? The swift boating of Murtha? Yes. yes it is, which you avoid like the plague.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Rekna

what marv no medals? i'm sorry if you don't have medals you have no military credentials. and i'm not talking any of those medals you earned by lying and such. i'm talking real medals.. it is clear that you don't have enough military background to participate in this discussion.

pan6467

Classic manuever by the neo cons, change the topic then accuse you of not staying focussed.

How else can they not have to debate the true issues?

So far we've had one threaten to cut up a post of mine and post it in another forum WITH MY E MAIL ADDY (and the mods said nothing about the threat), he then accuses those with no military background to not know anything about this issue. Yet, he offers no opinion whatsoever on the topic. Another rightie who offered no opinion on the topic but talked about how protesting was easy and without any danger to it. And now we're being told we're not focussed. Yet, again the one making accusations offers no opinion on the subject......

hmmmmmmmmm there seems to be a pattern there.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Marvelous Marv

The number of neo-military supporters here is very impressive. It would be more convincing if support were expressed for someone besides Kerry or Murtha.

This whining from the left has been earsplitting ever since November of 2000. I think I've figured out a way to silence it, at least for a few blessed minutes.

I will be happy to post a picture of one of the admirals I know. I think with a little effort, I could get a screen capture of one of them being interviewed on Fox News.

Next to that screen capture, I will post a picture of myself with him, with the only editing being that I will obscure my face. I will be holding a sign saying "Hello Pan," or something similar if that phrase is not acceptable. I suppose we'll need to agree in advance on someone to be the judge of whether the sign was the result of editing.

Be advised that to do this, I will be calling in a favor, since, due to their past and present anti-terrorist activities, they are not anxious to have their pictures plastered all over the internet. They have families, too. They also travel a great deal, so it could conceivably take weeks to do.

If I go to all this trouble, I will expect one or more of the "patriots" who accuse me of lying to donate a substantial sum to the Republican Party. Not that I think the Republicans are that great; it's just that the Democrats are that BAD. I'm not interested in anything less than $1,000. If someone wants to go higher, I can figure out a way to raise the stakes.

Of course, several of you have made posts indicating such moral bankruptcy that I will need to be convinced you won't act, well, like I'd anticipate. Perhaps a reputable internet escrow company would be an answer, although I'm open to other suggestions.

Shakran has already chickened out. Any takers out there, or is it time you gave up on calling me a liar when you can't refute my position?

Oh, and I need someone to point out where I "swift-boated" Murtha. Hint: It's nowhere near all of the "Jane Fonda is a patriot" crap. It also has not escaped my notice that Elphaba had urgent business elsewhere once I posted Kerry's Bronze Star. I guess publicizing that, which I GOT FROM KERRY'S OWN WEBSITE before he thought better of posting it, was "swift boating," too, as well as, "embarrassing."

Bah.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

shakran

Is this a politics discussion or recess in 3rd grade? If you can't discuss the topic seriously (largely due to the fact that you're wrong and the guy you're supporting is a corrupt incompetent) then why don't you recuse yourself from it and let those of us who want a DISCUSSION, and not asinine dares, discuss topics like adults.

Thanks.

Marvelous Marv

Where to begin ....

1. Please back up your statement in which you claim that having no medals means you have no military credentials.

2. Please post a justification for Kerry having his Bronze Star certificate edited ten years or more after it was awarded.

3. Did you miss the medals awarded to the Swift Boaters and their supporters?

However, since the gist of what I'm seeing here (a la comments about Murtha) is that being awarded military medals means you can do no wrong, I'm sure Duke Cunningham would appreciate your help in paying his legal fees.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

shakran

I believe I can field this one for Rekna

Sarcasm.

As was suggested in the campaign, he lost it or threw it away, and wanted it reissued. It takes paperwork to do that. Nothing was edited, it was redone.

Now, post justification for continuing to attack a guy who already lost, and who isn't even on the political radar screen right now.





Sarcasm


You could be sure of that if Rekna's post wasn't sarcasm. But since it was, and you missed it, this paragraph is invalid too.

Once again you're trying to distract from the original issue of this thread, and you're trying to distract from your own weak position. It's not going to work. Give it up. Debate for real, with real facts rather than petty kindergarten bullshit, or don't bother responding to posts, because we're just going to tear you up every time.

Elphaba

Heh...back button is my friend.

maximusveritas

Anyone else notice a distinct lack of moderation on the Politics board lately? Is this on purpose? There are a couple threads going right now that would normally be shut down by now or at least had a few warnings issued.

djtestudo

I agree.

It's a shame to see a guy like Marv get swift-boated like this in a thread who's purpose is to complain about just that kind of thing.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

Rekna

I think that is the irony of it, marv is defending the position of swiftboating people. of course if we attack his military credentials he goes apeshit. maybe now he gets the point.

in addition Marv, I could care less who you know. Claiming that you are in the military therefore you have the right to critisize something more than others or defend something more than others is BS. We all have an equal right to express our opinions and the validity of someones opinion has nothing to do with who they know or who they are. No the validity of an opinion comes down to how one expresses it and defends it.

JumpinJesus

Actually, Rekna, I think the validity of an opinion comes down to the fact that as Americans, we ALL have the right to have one and even EXPRESS one whenever or however we see fit. It has nothing to do with military service. It has nothing to do with who we know or even if we express it in a moronic fashion. We have the right to, period.


In reading the posts of some of our members, I find it beyond ironic that people who claim to believe in the American way are now using rubrics of sorts to determine whether or not another American deserves to speak up.

There is no honor in saying that someone has the right to question their government while simultaneously calling them anti-American, treasonous, or whatever the Coulter-ism of the moment is.

Being an American does not entail expressing a desire to hang someone who disagrees with you. It entails defending their right to disagree with you every step of the way. Dissent is the foundation of our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution. Those who seek to quell dissent through intimidation, fear, or force are the true enemies of our country.

This kind of jingoistic nationalism has no place in a free country.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

pan6467

I'm still waiting for the justification from a "military supporter" such as Marv to explain why it is okay to tear apart a man's military record and war medals from drafting dodging power fucks?

Like I said Marv, but you keep wanting to play this "you hate the military" card on me..... you can dislike a man for his politics and argue about them and call him full of shit for his stances..... However, why are you attacking his military record, the honor he showed while serving?

So fucking what if he wasn't an angel in Nam, show me 1 man who was.

Oh wait..... Bush, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Rove, Cheney...... they all fucking dodged didn't they??????????

So you have draft dodgers wanting to crucify a war hero's record.... not attack him for his stances now but dredge up all the Bullshit you can about his being in 'Nam.

That is fucking low and you know it. I don't see you defending these actions, instead you attack and attack on everything but the topic.

Tell me do you agree with the fact the draft dodging fucks are crucifying a war hero's record, NOT his political stances now?

I'm waiting.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

Ooooo really DJ..... the man made threats against me. He has yet to take a stand as to what he believes about the topic.

The topic is "Murtha being attacked for his military record and NOT his political stances today."

All Marv has to do is say he agrees that it is ok or not.... instead he cuts my posts up and threatens to post them ALONG with my e-mail address on another forum....

Yet, I'm the bad guy????? How do you figure that one out? All he had to do was give his opinion.... instead he threatens me?????

BTW I'm just calling him on his shit..... much like he is calling everyone else out saying "if you don't have military experience you have no worthy opinion on this subject."

But the subject has nothing to do with a person's military experience, just their opinion if the Draft Dodging GOP leaders attacks on a military hero is fair and right or it's not.

Yet, he offers no opinion on that does he????????????? He just attacks and threatens.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

You mean like a threat to cut a post to how you want it and then post it elsewhere while giving out a members e mail address and inferring I would get harrassing letters and threats??????????

BTW Marv I'm waiting for you to do it. I think they just passed laws against internet harrassment and threats no matter what form are still threats and taken seriously by lawyers looking to make money in lawsuits.

So if you have no intention of backing threats up against me..... don't threaten me.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Rekna

I think I either worded my last post poorly or you missread it as you are saying much of the same stuff I was. Everyone gets an opininion and has a right to state it. I don't give prefrence to an opinion based upon who the person stating it knows and i'd give very little based on who they are. Instead I'll give prefrence to an opinion based on how well a person justifies it with sound logical arguments.

silent_jay

What the hell does any of this have to do with the topic at hand? Is this going all the way back to primary school where you think who you know makes a difference to anybody here, because I could care less and I'm sure many others could care less as well. How about sticking to the topic at hand marv rather than trying to play I know an admiral, it really doesn't impress anyone, and makes you look rather immature.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Bill O'Rights

ENOUGH!!!!

I've left this thread alone because underneath all of the quibbling and back biting were some very good points, along with some thought provoking dialogue, brought to the table by both sides.
I no longer see that to be the case.

It's one thing to have to step in some mud, once in awhile, to get to where you are going. It's another thing entirely to have wade, knee deep, through it.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.