When God ordains a mans time to die...
 

"When god ordains a mans time to die he directs him to the proper place"

-docter kines
franks herberts dune

I like this quote very much i agree with the christan scientists viwes about organ translplant, I do not belive in any god but I belice in the philosophy, any thoughts?

Yeah, what if God directs a man to have an organ transplant and just makes him think he's going to die to make him appreciate life?

Don't christian scientists reject ALL medical technology?

I dont think so, unless by "christian" you mean "some strange cult that isnt christian" I cant see how the Christian religion would limit the belief of modern technology.

What if god ordained the man to be saved by the doctors? What if god ordains the doctors for failure? What if elephants took over the world and god sat by and laughed. What if there was no one to ask "what if?". What if this weren't a hypothetical question?


My issue with the whole christian science belief is that it assumes free-will means relinquishing your will to god. That's a contradiction if I ever heard one. If god was perfect, wouldn't he act through man? If god was all good, wouldn't he eliminate all pain? Why, I ask, would anyone say they are doing god's work on the one hand and that they have no idea where this work is going on the other hand? If this man was meant to die, it was because he was suicidal, or stupid, not because god said it was his time.

EDIT: Added Emphasis

I'd have to say I disagree here. I operate more by the thought of the original quote-- If god wants me dead, he's going to put on in the middle of a plane crash or something. But when you consider the good people that die young (Martin Luther King Jr.) and the bad people that don't (Hitler), then you get into free will. God says-- It's going to snow and sleet today. I say-- I'm going to drive like a stupid idiot anyway. I die. Or look at a major catastrophe-- 300 people's times simultaneously come up?
Sometimes it's your fault, sometimes it's an accident, but I'm a big believer in free will-- god picks the time and place of an occurence, and you decide to react.

I feel you missed my point with that, so I'll clarify.

I was attempting to say that god created all man, in this particular belief system. He also gave man the world to explore and understand. Why, then, would he also ask of man to succumb to nature? Did he not give us free will to tame our environment? If not, then why, I ask, give free will at all?

No, this is a contradiction. This person accepts his illness as god's will, when he himself is denying the fact that he has will as well, and this was a gift from his god.

With all proper respect, Christian Science is an oxymoron.

Honestly. This is not merely my knee jerk, iconoclastic response, but something I have been kicking around on and off for years.

Mary Baker Eddy was a certified crackpot on the order of L. Ron Hubbard. She has a chapter to herself in <i>Great American Eccentrics</i> (ISBN: 088365864X) While I am not saying that a total lunatic cannot have a good idea, that's where the smart money is - particulerly when the idea and the lunacy are identical.

For point 2, I found myself writing a book and realized that I was digressing unacceptably. Allow me to limit it to this: Science is, if not a Relgion, of a kind with Religion. Christian Science is neither in the same way that Voudoun is neither Christianity nor Yoruba animism.

<b>KoKenZn</b>: I really like that quote, but if find the fatalism inherent in it distasteful to the extent that I wouldn't care to incorporate it into my worldview.

(Anything beyond this point should have "I believe..." in front of it.)

God Ordaining you to die, and free will are not the same thing.

God know's when you are going to die. He doesn't cause it. Your fate is Determined. God doesn't write (all of) your fate though. You and other people/forces with free will do.

I'm sure things we can't control are also somehow affected by free will of people who were here long before us.

However, I am not saying that god just sits around and watches, he probally does ordain some people to die, but thats his free will affecting yours.

*ALERT* ATHEIST SPEAKING! BE WARNED! *ALERT!*

It occurs to me that there isn't anything in any spiritual text outlawing the development and use of technology; in fact, wouldn't that whole "man as the master of all things plant and animal" in Genesis basically authorize human beings to gather as much insight into the world around them to better perform this task? If we were created by an intelligent force, then we were given our ability to learn, understand, and communicate with each other for a reason.

Also, I really don't understand why someone would want to subscribe from a philosophy that is so far removed from practicality. Isn't your world view supposed to reflect reality, rather than define it?

*ALERT* CHRISTIAN SPEAKING! BE WARNED! *ALERT*

I've actually never heard a good reason given by any group to reject technology, because of the simple fact that no group rejects technology as a whole. The wheel is technology, so's the controlled use of fire. But, of course, groups rejecting 'technology' continue to use such devices, without (as far as a know) a principled reason for rejecting some forms technology while using other forms.

we are born and then we die, all the stuff in between is up to us.

The christian sciencentist view on any type of medicine is scary to me. I have a good friend who was brought up Christian Scientist. I truly think that it led to some of the problems he's had in his life.

Shit, when he was a kid, he broke his arm and rather than take him to a doctor, his mother set it for him. Imagine that. If you don't think that's wrong, I'd love to hear why.

Regarding the specific view that organ transplants circumvent "God's Will", if there was a God, and that God was cruel enough to let us die of a liver destroyed by lupus and he didn't want us to save ourselves, I imagine he'd have enough influence to make so that such procedures were impossible.

Accepting death when there's a chance to avoid it reeks of apathy. If a person was truly fatalistic, they'd believe that not only inaction is pre-ordained, but also action. Meaing that to accept your fate is to do or not do what you want because that's what's gonna happen.

Umm... cuz the doc won't kiss it all better?

I think Woody Allen said it best with "I don't mind dying- I just don't want to be there when it happens."

well it depends on whether you think it makes things better in the cave men time people worked 24 hours a week (gathering food and such) in the moddern days we work 48.

Why are they called Christian scientists? Don't they reject science?

strangely relevant....http://tfproject.org/tfp/showthread....threadid=19865

I guess my point would be that the gifts that man has brought forth to save lives are no less honest and true than the ones that we have been given to create life in the first place. To wit...
Honor the physician with the honor due him,
according to your need of
him, for the Lord created him;
for healing comes from the Most High,
and he will receive a gift from the king.
The skill of the physician lifts up his head,
and in the presence of great men he is admired.
The Lord created medicines from the earth,
and a sensible man will not despise them.
Was not water made sweet with a tree
in order that his power might be known?
And he gave skill to men
that he might be glorified in his marvelous works.
By them he heals and takes away pain;
the pharmacist makes of them a compound.
His works will never be finished;
and from him health is upon the face of the earth.

Wisdom of Sirach 38:1-8 (RSV)

christian science is an invalid uhm... religion or study ... because they simply cannot mix... its like apples and oranges completely different..

Just to be sure, you guys ARE aware that Christian Scientists are different from, you know, Christian scientists, right?

Conservative and mainline Christian churches usually see Christian Science as a cult. Its doctrine on salvation and its textual sources of authority are different.

I couldn't agree more.

Why does the existence of a god (which I'm not personally taking as given) necessitate that everything occurs according to his/her/its will? Isn't it just as likely that he (for the sake of simplicity I'll just revert to "he" from here on out) created the world, set it in motion, and said "hmm...let's see what happens?"? I've never understood why people insist on seeing either predestination or divine intervention in events that could just as well be explained by simple coincidence or other causal explanations. Is it a matter of psychological utility? What does it "give" you to believe that god is behind every little event?

It gives one a sense of order and a controller of the world. It also removes the burden of personal responsibility for our lives.

And this is a good thing....why?

The following text is my own, my only cited source is the big mass of nerve cells in my head. If I get something wrong, let me know.

"Christian Scientists" is the name given to follower of "The Church of Christ, Scientist."

The religion is based on the belief that disease and afflictions are not real, and that by reading certain passages in the Bible, they can be cured. Belief in disease is a sin, and the only way to eternal life is to put yourself entirely in the hands of God. The idea behind rejecting organ transplants is that to accept it is to admit belief in diesease, and doing so taints the body and soul.

The religion was created after its founder discovered that a persistent illness went into remission after reading a passage in the bible that spoke of Jesus miraculously curing a sick person.

Dissociation from personal responsibility removes the necessity of guilt. If you believe that God's will is going to be done, even if you could get lung cancer and die at age 50, there's no reason to try to quit smoking, because it was part of God's plan.