How Revelations relates to today - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ShaniFaye · 10-20-2005, 05:07 PM

This is one subject that I LOVE to talk about and the anti christ thread inspired me to post this. I would like to have a serious discussion, because I havent done it in awhile with people about how the last book of the bible and the prophecy's relates to todays events.

For example....we are supposed to turn into a cashless society...I think the advent of the debit card has us well on the way to that. We are also supposed to be known by "a number" I know in the US you now have to have a SS# from day one.

does this topic interest anyone besides me?

(I dont want to offend anyone but I really dont want this thread to turn into a debate on the validity of the bible...I would like this discussion to be amongst those of us that believe that Revelation actually has something to tell us)

Johnny Rotten · 10-20-2005, 06:31 PM

"Revelation," not "Revelations."

Unfortunately, since I look at the Bible from a mostly non-Christian perspective, I can't add any more to the thread. So, uh, good luck and all that

1010011010 · 10-20-2005, 07:30 PM

"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name." Rev 13:16-17 (NIV)

SSNs don't fit the requirement.

impkicker · 10-20-2005, 08:11 PM

I studied the bible for years before I decided to be more of a conglomeration of all religions and what I think. For a while I completely renounced christianity, but I came to realize that it was specific people I was mad at, not the religion at all. I believe at the core, there are truths... but through the eyes of men 2000 years ago we didn't get a clear picture.

We know a lot more now than we did then. I mean, anything that was in the sky that wasn't a bird we would have called a cloud, but if we saw it now we might realize that it was nothing like water vapor masses.

What I'm getting at is that when it comes to the book of revelation, knowing what the original message from the divine represented or was supposed to tell us is like being at the end of a 2000 year old game of telephone. Is it really going to be the end of the world? What if the vision someone interpreted as "all the faithful being called into heaven" was really a large portion of enlightened people reaching their peak of brain activity and rising into a higher plane of energy? Anyone who wasn't dedicated to spiritual awakening would be "left behind" while people they knew simply vanished into the next realm, from which no proof can be provided in the material plane... would they go into mass hysteria and world war resulting in nuking the planet? When you think about "hell reigning on earth" nukes could do it.

That's one tangent, but can we ever really know what they saw? Not from the eyes of history, maybe from the eyes of a visionary, definately in the eyes of the present moment if/when it happens. We'll probably sit back and say "Oh man we were way off! THAT's what they meant was gonna happen" but that's my opinion. It's fun to try to guess what they might have seen... I definately think it couldn't be literal the way it's written, i think there's a depth there that ancient people couldn't have described in their limited knowledge.

politicophile · 10-20-2005, 09:41 PM

I'm not really sure how one would determine the accuracy of Revelation without living during the apocolypse. Even if some events that are supposed to precede the event are happening, the only way to know that they are actually preceding it is to wait for the real fireworks to begin. So, in answer to your question Shani, I don't think it is possible to know if today's events are early signs of the apocolypse. An interesting topic for discussion, though...

Sorry for my spelling errors: It's 1:40am...

ShaniFaye · 10-21-2005, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1010011010

"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name." Rev 13:16-17 (NIV)

SSNs don't fit the requirement.

not YET anyway.....

ShaniFaye · 10-21-2005, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Rotten

"Revelation," not "Revelations."

Unfortunately, since I look at the Bible from a mostly non-Christian perspective, I can't add any more to the thread. So, uh, good luck and all that

What I meant was I dont want a bunch of "the bible is a myth so why worry about it" kinda posts

Redlemon · 10-21-2005, 05:37 AM

I'm not religious, but I enjoy religious fiction, and I've read a couple of great Revelation-based books. For the funny, "Good Omens" by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett. For the dark, "Only Begotten Daughter" by James Morrow. Hope that wasn't too much of a hijack.

WillyPete · 10-21-2005, 07:54 AM

ShaniFaye, I think there might also be a LOT of interpretations of that verse and a lot of them won't mean a cashless society.

It refers to a control system and doesn't refer to whether there is cash or not.
It only says that you cannot buy or sell unless you are 'registered' as it were.

Think of Internal Revenue and reporting all your business transactions with that in mind.

Another interpretation would be a particular monarch or leader that required all transactions to bear his/her symbol.
All cash transactions require official legal tender. The queen's face on all English money could be interpreted this way.

What about internet puchases?
Would institutions like Verisign fit this, where they permit trusted transactions to take place across the world, simply through their electronic 'mark'?

'Right hand' and 'Forehead' also have a very symbolic meaning aside from their literal meaning.

Right-hand man, take oath by raising your right hand, sword arm, voting hand, salute.
Both places are also where orthodox jewry stated the scrips be bound to remind those that pray of the law and the word of god.
I forget the official name for them. Think of those guys at the wailing wall.
With that in mind, your 'right-hand and forehead' could refer to those things that you hold dear, or the laws that you subject yourself to.

martinguerre · 10-21-2005, 09:08 AM

i dunno...i tend to make my primary reading of Revelation not as prophecy, but as anthropology.

In a book warning the 7 churches against idolotry in perilous times...an angel comes to John to tell him this message.

He worships the angel. The angel tells him to get up, that God alone deserves such praise. The angel tells him of the judgement, and that the people will not come out from the idols. God will come down to us in a New Jerusalem, that will have no temple for it's very streets will be a place of worship, no light but that of God.

The angel tells John to be careful of idols, and that this judgement is coming soon.

What does John do? Falls on his face again, and worships the angel. I don't think that this is here to commemorate a fuckup or tell us we're all screwed...i think it's telling us that our very nature is to be mislead by powers and passions that are not holy. It is without God that we are subject to them, and only by God's indwelling that we are free of them. And if we will not come to God, God will come to us.

It's complicated, and the judgement scenes still give me fantastic pause. But i do like that reading of the text just because it makes it, at least in part, about the Good News again.

Poppinjay · 10-21-2005, 09:22 AM

I'm just going to wait until martinguerre posts on all things ecumenical from now on.

Thank you for the point of view. I had never thought about Revelation that way.

florida0214 · 10-21-2005, 09:26 AM

either its going to happen or its not. it is really that simple. Whether you understand it or not. Its funny people want to know how the world is going to end but have no idea how their car or computer works. Or anything else they interact with on a day t0 day basis but they are absorbed with the end of the world. I don't understnad it. Especially somethign that you can do nothing to prevent if it does happen.
However you can fix your car a manipulate your computer, but you canno change what happens in the end. So I gues my contirbution to this whole thread is: Does it all really matter?

ShaniFaye · 10-21-2005, 09:50 AM

Obviously it matters, in the sense that its an interesting subject to me and I wanted to discuss it with like minded people that like to talk about it.

impkicker · 10-21-2005, 01:02 PM

I'd say in historical literature there's a lot to be said about prophecy.

What about this: take the story of Oedipus for example. An oracle tells his parents that their future son will kill his father and marry his mother, so they try to leave the newborn to die, where he's found and raised by a farm family or something, not knowing his real family. Oedipus kills his father (i don't remember the specifics) and takes his place as King, which entitles him to marry his mother who he doesn't know is his mother.
So, if the prophecy wouldn't have been told to the parents, would oedipus still have killed his father and married his mother? He gouged his eyes out after finding out it was his mom, so i don't think he would have if he had known his parents.

By the same token, what if the end times prophecy caused the end of the world merely by its existence? Would trying to prevent it unwittingly bring it about? If someone who fit the description of antichrist got power, would we act in such a way in response that would actually make that person the antichrist? Not that we can ever know except in hindsight... you could go in circles, too... by thinking that the prophecy itself will be the cause are we somehow playing into it's game?? Aieee, my brain hurts already.
It is fun to speculate

Let me know what you think!

Poppinjay · 10-21-2005, 02:40 PM

I wish there was a sticky about posting in bible, faith, or Christian related threads akin to the sticky about whining about your parents.

If you don't care about it. Don't post. If you want to dismiss a whole culture of philosophers with terms like, "sky monster", go post elsewhere.

If someobdy says they are a Christian, Buddhist, Pagan, quince worshipper, whatever, don't show up to tell them their belief system is ridiculous, or to convert them if they have none.

If Revelation happens as written, I hope one of the horsemen bop the heads of those who do things like that. Probably the pestilence guy.

rsl12 · 10-24-2005, 05:31 PM

ok, some things to foster discussion:

7:2-4--And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

questions for discussion: the angels are about to hurt the sea and the earth, once they finish sealing the servants of God in their foreheads. What kind of cruelty is to be expected on the earth and sea? And why?

2. If there are only 144,000 jews going to heaven, then that means a lot of people are going to hell! Who will be the chosen few?

More info on the 144,000:
14:1-4--And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

So the men are not 'defiled with women'. No women among the 144,000?

WillyPete · 10-25-2005, 11:35 AM

This is going to be a numbers game, and the Lost series 2 people are going to feel right at home with that.

Certain numbers appear a LOT in scripture and usually have more than their literal number behind them.

144000 / 12 = 12000. (Where've you heard the number 12 before? Apostles, tribes...)

40 = 2 score, = 2 x the number of fingers and toes a person had (usually) and it is used a lot to refer to a time period where people weren't sure exactly how long, but 'it was a long time' - Noah in the Ark, Christ in the wilderness, etc.

Isreal: Don't use these words in a western sense.
The context is 'Children of Isreal'. How many children did the original Isreal (Jacob) have? 12

What does the phrase 'Children of Isreal' refer to? Not Jews, nor Hebrews, but those who accept the gospel. (according to the bible)

If to be with a woman and lose your virginity is to be defiled, then what of the other apostles who had wives? Will they be amongst the 144000? Moses? Abraham?

With this in ming the 144000 starts to sound like a chosen group, set apart for a specific task, and not the simply number who will be in heaven.

The 'firstfruits' was also a word used to represent the tithe, particularly for farmers and owners of livestock. Again, this seems to imply a chosen few who are 'dedicated' to the service of God, in this case to 'learn a new song'. Why a song? Could that represent a new task or message?

The 4 angels. Where else do you read of 4 beings in Revelations? The 4 horsemen. But death, pestilence, war & famine? They surely can't be angels?
The devil, Lucifer, was once referred to as the Angel of the Morning. Why can't they?
There's an angel of death in the O.T.

You didn't include it in this section you quoted, but the 7 seals are widely believed to be the 7 1000 year periods since the biblical record began with Adam. The 7th seal being the last 1000 year period before a huge change is to take place and a final judgement, hence the number of doomsayers around the year 2000.

Yakk · 10-25-2005, 01:27 PM

In Revelations, it is stated that even the angels do not know when the end will come. It is also stated that the end will come within the lifetime of those in attendence at one of the sermons recorded.

I personally would take this to mean that any belief that you know when the end will occur is hubris of the highest order. A quite explicit limit on when the end will occur, in that same book, was violated -- demonstrating that even explicit descriptions of when the end occurs should be viewed with a jaundiced eye. Vague predictions -- about numbers and signs and portents -- have been found to be true hundreds of times throughout history. The presumption that your life is somehow special and your life will witness the end times is a seductive one -- but it is simple pride.

If you believe a prophet has told you that you will live to see the end times, you are probably wrong. A holy prophet of God told people in the Bible exactly that, and it did not come to pass. Unless you place yourself above the Angels -- place yourself equal to God -- you cannot know when the end will occur.

Lastly, game-theoretically if you know when the game ends, the entire nature of the game changes. The uncertainty of the end of the world means that you must live your entire life as if it where your last moment, and be willing to stand up in front of your Creator and state "I am willing to accept your love." That is what the lesson of "the world will end, and you will not be able to know when" is -- be ready to meet your maker at each and every moment, and live a life of love and justice.

PS: While the evidence is pretty clear that the Bible is simply a document used to convince you to act in the benefit of the self-replicating idea complex called "the Church", I can presume the truth of the document and continue from that point. I am not an expert on the matter -- my post-secondary formal theology is minimal.

WillyPete · 10-28-2005, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakk

In Revelations, it is stated that even the angels do not know when the end will come. It is also stated that the end will come within the lifetime of those in attendence at one of the sermons recorded.

I personally would take this to mean that any belief that you know when the end will occur is hubris of the highest order. A quite explicit limit on when the end will occur, in that same book, was violated

Again, what I have to say has to taken from a viewpoint of first believing in the bible, then this will make sense.

Ancient texts tell us of belief (or legend ) that John, the author of Revelations, was to stay here on eart until the return of Christ.
This is fuel by the following verse.
“If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?” (John 21:20, 22)

Ok, so from a point of belief in the bible, this 'clause' would mean that there was at least one person who witnessed this sermon (the author himself) and would be here to see it finished.

As for time limits, it does state that now man can or will know the hour or day, but using the analogy of the seasons, those who take guidance and understand the book of Revelation can see the signs of the coming events.
revelations is not meant to be a book about the fate of mankind, but a litmus test of sorts for those who believe in the return of a christ.
It is meant to let them know that the time is near, when they start to occur.

That interpretation of whether they have occurred or not, however, is up to you.

Yakk · 10-28-2005, 07:12 AM

Matthew 10:23

Quote:

‘When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.’

Matthew 16:28

Quote:

"For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father... There be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom"

Matthew 24:30-34

Quote:

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Above we have holy scripture telling you that the end times where to come in the lifetime of those present. A damn clear and non-ambiguous message -- "the end times are coming within a human lifetime of this point". Yet they did not come.

This means that even those clear messages are allegories and are far less clear than they appear. Which means when you look at revelations, even if you find signs and portents that are as clear as those above messages, do not fool yourself into thinking you know the day and hour of your Lord's return.

Quote:

(KJV) Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

(KJV) Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

(KJV) Mark 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

(KJV) Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

If you wish to read the seasons, go ahead. But in your pride, do not place yourself above the very Son of God. Even Jesus did not know when he would return again.

Given the vast number of times that people have "seen the signs of the end times" throughout history, might those signs simply mean "be ready at all times"?

Disclaimer: See my above post.

asaris · 10-28-2005, 10:29 AM

Well, some have supposed that what those sayings of Jesus mean is that someone from that generation must still be alive. Most commonly it's either Lazarus or St. John the Apostle.

Yakk · 10-28-2005, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asaris

Well, some have supposed that what those sayings of Jesus mean is that someone from that generation must still be alive. Most commonly it's either Lazarus or St. John the Apostle.

This still means that "if you think you have a lock down on when the end-times is, you probably missed a loop-hole". I mean, believing that speech at 80 AD, you'd be absolutely certain that the end times where around the corner.

There is always a loop hole. And I doubt you'll ever have as convincing an arguement as that person in 80 or 90 AD reading the scriptures.

WillyPete · 10-28-2005, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakk

This still means that "if you think you have a lock down on when the end-times is, you probably missed a loop-hole". I mean, believing that speech at 80 AD, you'd be absolutely certain that the end times where around the corner.

There is always a loop hole. And I doubt you'll ever have as convincing an arguement as that person in 80 or 90 AD reading the scriptures.

I said exactly what Asaris said.
Show me where it actually said "within a typical human lifespan of 70 years" in those quotes two posts up?

He doesn't. So, taken with whatever salt you pinch if you take every single word in the bible literally, one can use the John the beloved loophole to say that it could happen anytime. Were you to even use a 'human life' as a measure of time, who's life sets the rule? Methuselah? Peter? Judas?
Saying that I or he or she thinks that that time is soon is not being presumptuous or putting yourself above God. He even says himself, that you may expect it soon after the fulfillment of those signs.

However, we'd typically only see that they were after the event.

asaris · 10-28-2005, 12:33 PM

Well, he does warn us to look for the signs, which seems to indicate that it will be possible to see it coming. Perhaps difficult, but possible.

Oh, and I'll apologize if I'm more inconsistent than usual in this thread. My thoughts about the end times are deeply confused.

trickyy · 10-28-2005, 01:11 PM

Revelation (not the tv show) plays an immediate role in our lives, but unfortunately it is manifest in bad fiction and paranoid newspaper pronouncements. while the nature of the book makes it hard to say who is correct or incorrect in their interpretation of any one verse, it is interesting to observe people who are obsessed with end times. i am suspicious of those who say stuff llike (i heard on the radio yesterday) "our lack of concern for israel will bring god's judgement. i can back this statement up at my conference next month." god is going to judge us for misinterpreting an ambiguity? i also heard "read the story about the israel bombing and then read (??) chapters in ezekiel." i've heard this stuff for years so it isn't very compelling.

maybe at some point, it will become obvious that these prophesies are being fulfillled. it just seems like you wouldn't miss stuff like jesus returning, the 1000 years of something, etc. i don't think we're there yet, despite what certain elements in our population say.

Yakk · 10-28-2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillyPete

I said exactly what Asaris said.
Show me where it actually said "within a typical human lifespan of 70 years" in those quotes two posts up?

It doesn't.

Quote:

He doesn't. So, taken with whatever salt you pinch if you take every single word in the bible literally, one can use the John the beloved loophole to say that it could happen anytime. Were you to even use a 'human life' as a measure of time, who's life sets the rule? Methuselah? Peter? Judas?
Saying that I or he or she thinks that that time is soon is not being presumptuous or putting yourself above God. He even says himself, that you may expect it soon after the fulfillment of those signs.

Those signs are very ambiguous. So ambiguous that people have thought they have happened 100s of times in the last 2000 years.

Given the loophole of "oh, I forgot to mention, someone who I am talking to will live for more than 2000 years" -- not something you'd exactly expect -- interpriting any sign as being fullfilled is not something you can do reasonably.

Quote:

However, we'd typically only see that they were after the event.

Yes. If you believe you know the time of the end of the world, you are almost certainly wrong. If you think you see a sign or portent being fullfilled, you are almost certainly wrong. Apocoliptic Christian Movements are common and have cropped up throughout history repeatedly. They where absolutely convinced, based off scripture and the events of their era, that they where living in the end times. Every single one was wrong.

If there is any way whatsoever to weasle out of a sign coming true, given the "within the lifetime" and the experience of thousands upon thousands of earstwhile prophets of the apocolipse, you have to expect it to not be the sign. And given how vague the signs are and easy to weasle out of, only someone full of pride -- the hubris that you get to live in the end times -- could believe they are here.

God could appear to you and say "the end will occur before the clock on your mantle piece strikes midnight", then swap your clock with another clock that is in every way indistinguishable, then place your clock on pluto frozen in ice. And his prophesy would be 100% accurate. You, personally, would have no chance to know that God did this -- so even that 100% true message from God doesn't let you determine the hour of the end of the world.

To those present when Jesus told them "the end of the world will happen during the lifetime of someone present", God granting nigh-immortality of one of the listeners would be as unexpected as God undetectably swapping your clock with one on Pluto would be to you.

You are told in the Bible to live your life as if the world will end at any moment. You are told that even the Son of God doesn't get to know when the world will end. I hold that the overarcing lesson of revelations is that you should not try to determine if the world is going to end this week, next week, or in 1 million years --- instead live a good life full of grace, humility, and love of god and your fellow humans.

Live as if you will die tommorrow, learn as if you will live forever.
Ghandi.

WillyPete · 10-28-2005, 01:36 PM

Ok, I read you better now.

It's pity we didn't have communication like this with the writers of those texts.

There's an old story I like, that I heard about the Mormon pioneers who were travelling west.

At one point in their travels, they were told to plant wheat or corn.
They new that they were moving on and that they wouldn't be their forever, but still went ahead.
The next year, around the time of the harvest, a starving handcart party that was following the same trail came upon the crop sowed by the others the year before, ready to be harvested and used.

There's a lot I like about the story and a lot of it fits with your closing remark.
I like to ignore the incessant search for prophecy or the 'end times' and to carry on livng as though it wasn't going to happen.

10-20-2005, 05:07 PM	#1 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	How Revelation relates to today This is one subject that I LOVE to talk about and the anti christ thread inspired me to post this. I would like to have a serious discussion, because I havent done it in awhile with people about how the last book of the bible and the prophecy's relates to todays events. For example....we are supposed to turn into a cashless society...I think the advent of the debit card has us well on the way to that. We are also supposed to be known by "a number" I know in the US you now have to have a SS# from day one. does this topic interest anyone besides me? (I dont want to offend anyone but I really dont want this thread to turn into a debate on the validity of the bible...I would like this discussion to be amongst those of us that believe that Revelation actually has something to tell us) __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!* Last edited by ShaniFaye; 10-21-2005 at 03:21 AM..

10-20-2005, 06:31 PM	#2 (permalink)
Johnny Rotten lost and found Location: Berkeley	"Revelation," not "Revelations." Unfortunately, since I look at the Bible from a mostly non-Christian perspective, I can't add any more to the thread. So, uh, good luck and all that __________________ "The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

10-20-2005, 07:30 PM	#3 (permalink)
1010011010 Psycho Location: Virginia Beach, VA	"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name." Rev 13:16-17 (NIV) SSNs don't fit the requirement. __________________ *Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions*

10-20-2005, 09:41 PM	#5 (permalink)
politicophile Addict	I'm not really sure how one would determine the accuracy of Revelation without living during the apocolypse. Even if some events that are supposed to precede the event are happening, the only way to know that they are actually preceding it is to wait for the real fireworks to begin. So, in answer to your question Shani, I don't think it is possible to know if today's events are early signs of the apocolypse. An interesting topic for discussion, though... Sorry for my spelling errors: It's 1:40am... __________________ The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

10-21-2005, 05:37 AM	#8 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	I'm not religious, but I enjoy religious fiction, and I've read a couple of great Revelation-based books. For the funny, "Good Omens" by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett. For the dark, "Only Begotten Daughter" by James Morrow. Hope that wasn't too much of a hijack. __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

10-20-2005, 08:11 PM	#4 (permalink)
impkicker Upright Location: Northwest U.S.	I studied the bible for years before I decided to be more of a conglomeration of all religions and what I think. For a while I completely renounced christianity, but I came to realize that it was specific people I was mad at, not the religion at all. I believe at the core, there are truths... but through the eyes of men 2000 years ago we didn't get a clear picture. We know a lot more now than we did then. I mean, anything that was in the sky that wasn't a bird we would have called a cloud, but if we saw it now we might realize that it was nothing like water vapor masses. What I'm getting at is that when it comes to the book of revelation, knowing what the original message from the divine represented or was supposed to tell us is like being at the end of a 2000 year old game of telephone. Is it really going to be the end of the world? What if the vision someone interpreted as "all the faithful being called into heaven" was really a large portion of enlightened people reaching their peak of brain activity and rising into a higher plane of energy? Anyone who wasn't dedicated to spiritual awakening would be "left behind" while people they knew simply vanished into the next realm, from which no proof can be provided in the material plane... would they go into mass hysteria and world war resulting in nuking the planet? When you think about "hell reigning on earth" nukes could do it. That's one tangent, but can we ever really know what they saw? Not from the eyes of history, maybe from the eyes of a visionary, definately in the eyes of the present moment if/when it happens. We'll probably sit back and say "Oh man we were way off! THAT's what they meant was gonna happen" but that's my opinion. It's fun to try to guess what they might have seen... I definately think it couldn't be literal the way it's written, i think there's a depth there that ancient people couldn't have described in their limited knowledge.

10-21-2005, 07:54 AM	#9 (permalink)
WillyPete Addict	ShaniFaye, I think there might also be a LOT of interpretations of that verse and a lot of them won't mean a cashless society. It refers to a control system and doesn't refer to whether there is cash or not. It only says that you cannot buy or sell unless you are 'registered' as it were. Think of Internal Revenue and reporting all your business transactions with that in mind. Another interpretation would be a particular monarch or leader that required all transactions to bear his/her symbol. All cash transactions require official legal tender. The queen's face on all English money could be interpreted this way. What about internet puchases? Would institutions like Verisign fit this, where they permit trusted transactions to take place across the world, simply through their electronic 'mark'? 'Right hand' and 'Forehead' also have a very symbolic meaning aside from their literal meaning. Right-hand man, take oath by raising your right hand, sword arm, voting hand, salute. Both places are also where orthodox jewry stated the scrips be bound to remind those that pray of the law and the word of god. I forget the official name for them. Think of those guys at the wailing wall. With that in mind, your 'right-hand and forehead' could refer to those things that you hold dear, or the laws that you subject yourself to.

10-21-2005, 09:08 AM	#10 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	i dunno...i tend to make my primary reading of Revelation not as prophecy, but as anthropology. In a book warning the 7 churches against idolotry in perilous times...an angel comes to John to tell him this message. He worships the angel. The angel tells him to get up, that God alone deserves such praise. The angel tells him of the judgement, and that the people will not come out from the idols. God will come down to us in a New Jerusalem, that will have no temple for it's very streets will be a place of worship, no light but that of God. The angel tells John to be careful of idols, and that this judgement is coming soon. What does John do? Falls on his face again, and worships the angel. I don't think that this is here to commemorate a fuckup or tell us we're all screwed...i think it's telling us that our very nature is to be mislead by powers and passions that are not holy. It is without God that we are subject to them, and only by God's indwelling that we are free of them. And if we will not come to God, God will come to us. It's complicated, and the judgement scenes still give me fantastic pause. But i do like that reading of the text just because it makes it, at least in part, about the Good News again. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

10-21-2005, 09:22 AM	#11 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	I'm just going to wait until martinguerre posts on all things ecumenical from now on. Thank you for the point of view. I had never thought about Revelation that way. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

10-21-2005, 09:26 AM	#12 (permalink)
florida0214 Crazy Location: South Florida	either its going to happen or its not. it is really that simple. Whether you understand it or not. Its funny people want to know how the world is going to end but have no idea how their car or computer works. Or anything else they interact with on a day t0 day basis but they are absorbed with the end of the world. I don't understnad it. Especially somethign that you can do nothing to prevent if it does happen. However you can fix your car a manipulate your computer, but you canno change what happens in the end. So I gues my contirbution to this whole thread is: Does it all really matter? __________________ "Two men: one thinks he can. One thinks he cannot. They are Both Right."

10-21-2005, 09:50 AM	#13 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Obviously it matters, in the sense that its an interesting subject to me and I wanted to discuss it with like minded people that like to talk about it. __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

10-21-2005, 01:02 PM	#14 (permalink)
impkicker Upright Location: Northwest U.S.	I'd say in historical literature there's a lot to be said about prophecy. What about this: take the story of Oedipus for example. An oracle tells his parents that their future son will kill his father and marry his mother, so they try to leave the newborn to die, where he's found and raised by a farm family or something, not knowing his real family. Oedipus kills his father (i don't remember the specifics) and takes his place as King, which entitles him to marry his mother who he doesn't know is his mother. So, if the prophecy wouldn't have been told to the parents, would oedipus still have killed his father and married his mother? He gouged his eyes out after finding out it was his mom, so i don't think he would have if he had known his parents. By the same token, what if the end times prophecy caused the end of the world merely by its existence? Would trying to prevent it unwittingly bring it about? If someone who fit the description of antichrist got power, would we act in such a way in response that would actually make that person the antichrist? Not that we can ever know except in hindsight... you could go in circles, too... by thinking that the prophecy itself will be the cause are we somehow playing into it's game?? Aieee, my brain hurts already. It is fun to speculate Let me know what you think!

10-21-2005, 02:40 PM	#15 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	I wish there was a sticky about posting in bible, faith, or Christian related threads akin to the sticky about whining about your parents. If you don't care about it. Don't post. If you want to dismiss a whole culture of philosophers with terms like, "sky monster", go post elsewhere. If someobdy says they are a Christian, Buddhist, Pagan, quince worshipper, whatever, don't show up to tell them their belief system is ridiculous, or to convert them if they have none. If Revelation happens as written, I hope one of the horsemen bop the heads of those who do things like that. Probably the pestilence guy. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

10-24-2005, 05:31 PM	#16 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	ok, some things to foster discussion: 7:2-4--And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. questions for discussion: the angels are about to hurt the sea and the earth, once they finish sealing the servants of God in their foreheads. What kind of cruelty is to be expected on the earth and sea? And why? 2. If there are only 144,000 jews going to heaven, then that means a lot of people are going to hell! Who will be the chosen few? More info on the 144,000: 14:1-4--And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. So the men are not 'defiled with women'. No women among the 144,000? __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

10-25-2005, 11:35 AM	#17 (permalink)
WillyPete Addict	This is going to be a numbers game, and the Lost series 2 people are going to feel right at home with that. Certain numbers appear a LOT in scripture and usually have more than their literal number behind them. 144000 / 12 = 12000. (Where've you heard the number 12 before? Apostles, tribes...) 40 = 2 score, = 2 x the number of fingers and toes a person had (usually) and it is used a lot to refer to a time period where people weren't sure exactly how long, but 'it was a long time' - Noah in the Ark, Christ in the wilderness, etc. Isreal: Don't use these words in a western sense. The context is 'Children of Isreal'. How many children did the original Isreal (Jacob) have? 12 What does the phrase 'Children of Isreal' refer to? Not Jews, nor Hebrews, but those who accept the gospel. (according to the bible) If to be with a woman and lose your virginity is to be defiled, then what of the other apostles who had wives? Will they be amongst the 144000? Moses? Abraham? With this in ming the 144000 starts to sound like a chosen group, set apart for a specific task, and not the simply number who will be in heaven. The 'firstfruits' was also a word used to represent the tithe, particularly for farmers and owners of livestock. Again, this seems to imply a chosen few who are 'dedicated' to the service of God, in this case to 'learn a new song'. Why a song? Could that represent a new task or message? The 4 angels. Where else do you read of 4 beings in Revelations? The 4 horsemen. But death, pestilence, war & famine? They surely can't be angels? The devil, Lucifer, was once referred to as the Angel of the Morning. Why can't they? There's an angel of death in the O.T. You didn't include it in this section you quoted, but the 7 seals are widely believed to be the 7 1000 year periods since the biblical record began with Adam. The 7th seal being the last 1000 year period before a huge change is to take place and a final judgement, hence the number of doomsayers around the year 2000.

10-28-2005, 10:29 AM	#21 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	Well, some have supposed that what those sayings of Jesus mean is that someone from that generation must still be alive. Most commonly it's either Lazarus or St. John the Apostle. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

10-25-2005, 01:27 PM	#18 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	In Revelations, it is stated that even the angels do not know when the end will come. It is also stated that the end will come within the lifetime of those in attendence at one of the sermons recorded. I personally would take this to mean that any belief that you know when the end will occur is hubris of the highest order. A quite explicit limit on when the end will occur, in that same book, was violated -- demonstrating that even explicit descriptions of when the end occurs should be viewed with a jaundiced eye. Vague predictions -- about numbers and signs and portents -- have been found to be true hundreds of times throughout history. The presumption that your life is somehow special and your life will witness the end times is a seductive one -- but it is simple pride. If you believe a prophet has told you that you will live to see the end times, you are probably wrong. A holy prophet of God told people in the Bible exactly that, and it did not come to pass. Unless you place yourself above the Angels -- place yourself equal to God -- you cannot know when the end will occur. Lastly, game-theoretically if you know when the game ends, the entire nature of the game changes. The uncertainty of the end of the world means that you must live your entire life as if it where your last moment, and be willing to stand up in front of your Creator and state "I am willing to accept your love." That is what the lesson of "the world will end, and you will not be able to know when" is -- be ready to meet your maker at each and every moment, and live a life of love and justice. PS: While the evidence is pretty clear that the Bible is simply a document used to convince you to act in the benefit of the self-replicating idea complex called "the Church", I can presume the truth of the document and continue from that point. I am not an expert on the matter -- my post-secondary formal theology is minimal. __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

10-28-2005, 12:33 PM	#24 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	Well, he does warn us to look for the signs, which seems to indicate that it will be possible to see it coming. Perhaps difficult, but possible. Oh, and I'll apologize if I'm more inconsistent than usual in this thread. My thoughts about the end times are deeply confused. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

10-28-2005, 01:11 PM	#25 (permalink)
trickyy ►	Revelation (not the tv show) plays an immediate role in our lives, but unfortunately it is manifest in bad fiction and paranoid newspaper pronouncements. while the nature of the book makes it hard to say who is correct or incorrect in their interpretation of any one verse, it is interesting to observe people who are obsessed with end times. i am suspicious of those who say stuff llike (i heard on the radio yesterday) "our lack of concern for israel will bring god's judgement. i can back this statement up at my conference next month." god is going to judge us for misinterpreting an ambiguity? i also heard "read the story about the israel bombing and then read (??) chapters in ezekiel." i've heard this stuff for years so it isn't very compelling. maybe at some point, it will become obvious that these prophesies are being fulfillled. it just seems like you wouldn't miss stuff like jesus returning, the 1000 years of something, etc. i don't think we're there yet, despite what certain elements in our population say.

10-28-2005, 01:36 PM	#27 (permalink)
WillyPete Addict	Ok, I read you better now. It's pity we didn't have communication like this with the writers of those texts. There's an old story I like, that I heard about the Mormon pioneers who were travelling west. At one point in their travels, they were told to plant wheat or corn. They new that they were moving on and that they wouldn't be their forever, but still went ahead. The next year, around the time of the harvest, a starving handcart party that was following the same trail came upon the crop sowed by the others the year before, ready to be harvested and used. There's a lot I like about the story and a lot of it fits with your closing remark. I like to ignore the incessant search for prophecy or the 'end times' and to carry on livng as though it wasn't going to happen.