Words of the feather, words of the sword... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

xepherys · 09-20-2005, 12:25 PM

I debated whether to post this here or in Tilted Politics. Here won the toss up.

I wonder why people allow words, whose very meanings shift and evolve over time, to weigh so heavily over them. I first really started thinking about it while reading another TFP post about "pet names" and people using such names as 'hun', 'cutie', 'sweetie' with people they didn't know. But this extends to all language. As language is a tool to convey thoughts, one must realize that someone's thoughts may not be parallel to their own, and that the same word can have many meanings. Nowhere is this seen more than the US in today's "politically correct" circles.

Take the word "nigger". Now I understand that in it's initial creation, it had a negative intent. It was meant to belittle. But that was in a time long ago, generations past. Sure, some people still try to use the word as an insult against blacks, colored folk, african americans... whatever the hell dark skinned people in the US with African heritage are called these days. Maybe the PC crowd will adapt that... "Dark skinned US citizens with African heritage". *sigh* But if black people didn't CARE anymore, the word would have no meaning... no weight.

I don't care if somneone calls me an asshole, or a honkey, or a fucktard. I don't care WHAT people call me, even if it's surely meant as an insult. Why is that? Because I just don't care. Why does anyone? If I dislike you enough to insult you, why does that hurt you? Especially if you don't even know me?!

I have a hard time understanding words with sexual conotations as well. Who cares if a 10 y/o boy calls them boobs, or tits. I mean... really. They are what they are. Are you more upset that he's noticed they exist or that he used one word versus another. Breasts? Ta-tas? Dirty pillows? Who cares? I don't care if you call my penis a dick... a prick... a schlong... Why do you care what I call your milk pups?

Which dives further into children. Kids are sponges... they'll say what they hear. Well, sort of. Frankly, I'm a firm believer in "do what I say, not what I do". Kids are kids and adults are adults. Of course! Wow, some people forget that. If your kid says something nasty, you tell them it's not the right thing to do. Ground them... spank their toosh. Every parent reacts differently. But don't tell me you've never said something nasty about someone else. It happens. It's human nature. So what is a sixth grader yells at another sixth grader. Kids are kids. Why can't adults let kids be kids anymore? No wonder they go around shooting places up.

Okay, that got off topic, let's move back.

Cuss words, swear words, sailor talk. Watever you want to call it. Fuck shit damn cunt whorebag hell ass... Who are we protecting from these words? The FCC would have you presume we are protecting innocent children whose virgin ears could not possibly tolerate such vulgarities. But seriously? Show me a child over 3 that has never had a cussword, and I'll show you a liar. (that would be you) Even moreso with their attempts to censor cable/sat which we PAY for. Why do these conservative asshats think they have a right to tell me what's okay for me to listen to. Or for MY child to listen to. If i want my son to be planted in front of XXX XXX XXX rated TV for his whole pre-teen life, so be it. Sure, I would never do that... but it's not someone else's place to tell me not to.

And why do cuss words offend anyhow? If someone calls me Sir, Mister or Hey! Asshole! it's all the same to me. I'll either respond to them or not. Frankly, I'm no more or less inclined to respond to complete strangers regardless of the three samples used. I guess this goes full circle. Why do words hurt? it makes no sense to me. There's no logic behind it. A word can only hurt you as much as you let it.

ElvenDestiny · 09-20-2005, 01:10 PM

I think it was George Carlin nonetheless that said people are only as intelligent as the words/language they use. Now whether or not saying 'fuck' makes you any more or less smarter I don’t know, but I do know on a personal level someone walking around saying "fuck" all the time is quiet annoying. It tells me the person lacks the ability to say anything intelligent and has to resort to saying something not even knowing its real definition. The point of using a word, which you are correct, is to express an emotion, a feeling, a definition, to describe. Curse words do not have this ability as they are made up words or words with a different meaning than what the person is using them as. (Yes I know we have made up all words). The word fuck indicates an act of intercourse. So if someone says to me "for fucks sake" my initial response is that they just said "For an act of intercourses sake" which makes absolutely no sense what so ever, and this is coming from someone with horrible grammar and smelling lol.

This is an argument I had with my girlfriend a long time ago who is a total bookworm. And of course she won cause I now see it the same as she. Ultimately it boils down to this, why does it matter what kids says? Do you want your kid walking around saying fuck you every chance they get? It’s a matter of respecting someone else, if the kid doesn’t learn what the definition of the word is he/she will use it incorrectly and possibly get himself into trouble. Does it make it right that we should put so much weight on words? No I agree we shouldn’t, we shouldn’t take them so seriously. But then of course if we didn’t then every single word I just typed made no sense and now there is no way for us to communicate because all words have just lost their meaning and now It means The, that means this, Up means down, Right means life, and Hello means fuck you.

So for the sake of being able to communicate the general language has to maintain a meaning. Or am I to walk around and just know that every time someone say fuck you or hey bitch that their just giving me a hearty hello?

For instants if I havent babbled enough..

To if the am to be cat when you the be it the mat sat to put the fuck shit my mom did the thing it yes my run sit fat.

Does that make any sense? .. .. ..

But dont get me wrong I do agree people put to much weight as I have said, and words shouldnt be able to dictate peoples emotions. But if that being true, we have offically stripped the statement "I love you" to having no meaning at all.

xepherys · 09-20-2005, 01:32 PM

But, in fact, the WAY you say "hello" can indeed mean "fuck you". Language is a fickle beast. "I love you" can also mean "I like you" to a puppy-love stricken teenager, it can mean "I love you like a friend", "I love you like family", "I love you like a lover", "I want to get into your pants", "I want you to shut up so I'll say I love you even though I don't".

Language only means what we allow it to mean. Trying to interpret not just words, but situations, context, intonation, et cetera can be a huge pain in the ass. It's no wonder wars are fought. Maybe if there was a unified language that meant only what was said (exactly) we WOULD all just get along.

I agree that, with children, it's a matter of respect. But I would also expect my kids to be able to call it how they see it. If someone is being prissy, I don't get upset when they say, "Hey! Get over yourself!" The truth is, in fact, the only thing that's the truth.

Lastly, what's wrong with saying "fuck" all the time? The current, 21st century meaning behind the word varies. It can mean an act of fornication. It can be an expletive stemmed from a sudden experience of pain or suprise. It can be an agitated word, followed by a stream of other agitated words. If someone says ANYTHING all the time it's annoying. i'd be just as bothered by somone who walked around saying "Spoon!" everytime something made them mad. Did you ever watch the smurfs? Those smurfing smurfs with their smurfy smurfing. That's possibly even MORE annoying than, Those fucking smurfs and their fucking stupid fucking language.

Though that's just me...

pig · 09-20-2005, 02:24 PM

I essentially agree with both of your posts: only I can control my reaction to any situation, including what someone says to me. At the same time, I think we have to preserve some meaning in our vocabulary, in general, in order for language to be possible - and yes, in general I would agree it's more complicated than simple word choice. The only real reason I can see to justify the retention of taboo language is essentially a point that xepherys] brought up: discipline. I think we use it indoctrinate our children with the notion of discpline, as a mental exercise, so that the fundamentals of that lesson will bleed into discipline in action and so forth. Maybe?

Coppertop · 09-20-2005, 03:45 PM

Quote:

The point of using a word, which you are correct, is to express an emotion, a feeling, a definition, to describe. Curse words do not have this ability as they are made up words or words with a different meaning than what the person is using them as.

What the fuck?

ElvenDestiny · 09-21-2005, 03:49 AM

XEP well for the most part I do agree with you but the only thing I dont agree with is the definitions behind words such as fuck its always disturbed me that we as logical thinking people permit words to take on their slang meaning. As in the past fuck held one meaning, and now since its been since high school since iv looked it up (that was alot of since's) I see now you are right that have allowed the slang versions of the definitions into the word. The other thing that bothers me such is that, is the open acceptance of ebonics among schools and teachers.

xepherys · 09-21-2005, 08:21 AM

Actually, that's not true.

Possibly as late as the 17th or early 18th century, it was in common use and meant to penetrate or to strike. When it was original used as a word for fornication, it was vulgar and was "slang" or improper. Again, you can never take language to literally for exactly that reason. Your gripe, as you've mentioned it, is false because you weren't aware of the full history of the word. It's current "real" meaning, as you know it, developed from slang use of the word hundreds of years ago.

See also: WikiPedia

martinguerre · 09-21-2005, 08:57 AM

i think it's quite possible that one ought to be free to use a word, but that it still does not remain good practice to do so.

if one genuinely does not care anything about what others think, as the OP suggests, then there is no reason to ever speak with another human being.

political correctness for it's own sake is an empty gesture. learning to moderate one's own langauge, to be aware of how one's expressions are making others feel and think....that is the opening in to the possiblity for community.

Charlatan · 09-21-2005, 09:17 AM

Some words are just not polite in mixed company. Sure I can use the word fuck all I want in a business meeting. The fact is the only thing it will hurt is my reputation.

It is a cool thing about language, it is very flexible and certain words carry deeper meaning than others.

As you touched on above, context is important... hell, context is everything. It is part of the process in which meaning is derived. It is one of the reasons that people are frequently misunderstood when posting on the Internet. Text is devoid of body language, inflection and all the other things that go into context.

As for the issue of PC, martinguerre's last sentence lays it out nicely.

ElvenDestiny · 09-21-2005, 09:30 AM

Xep, I thought I made that clear in my last post but if not I do agree I was mistaken, When I was in high school which was like 8 years ago give or take a few, the only definition you could find for the word "fuck" was referring to an act of sex, so leave it to me to not care then that the word actually had a different meaning years and years ago as I am finding this out now and will be sure to research it more so next time I don’t come off Half cocked. Even though the word had a different meaning in the past and has a million meanings now does not change the fact that the common person finds the word very offensive and an uneducated word (though I guess someone like you who knows so much about the word can turn it into an educated word lol). I agree with you in part we do hold to much over the heads of words so to say, but words are what we use to communicate and you be the one to tell everyone in the world that every word goes and we are to no longer be offended by words.

I’m open-minded enough to accept the idea that if someone walks up to me and says, “hey fuck you” that there giving me a nice hearty hello, but is everyone else?

(I think this topic was a bad one to get involved with DAMN my curiosity damn it to hell! I only say this cause my understanding of the English language, grammar, and spelling suck really bad if it wasn’t for word id be lost in the world.)

xepherys · 09-21-2005, 09:33 AM

Well, as the OP in question, I'd like to make clear that I care what other's think, or I would not participate in the TFP. I do not, however, care much what others think OF me. If someone wants to insult me, for insults sake or for whatever reason, it doesn't bother me.

Community does not require much in the way of language. Tribal communities often have extremely simple language and cannot express nearly as much as we can. They communicate only for the sake of working together. This makes PC even more moot, but also limits the possibilities. I think there are things that build community that are FAR more important, and less restrictive than PC language or not saying "fuck". Perhaps pay less attention to trying so hard not to offend people, and at the same time, be less offended by others. It allows for free(er) speech, and allows people to work together without getting all in a tizzy.

ElvenDestiny · 09-21-2005, 09:37 AM

You know its all my girlfriends fault, every time I curse she gives me a mean look and it means im not getting any booty

So she's brainwashed me to be a clean mouth speaker, but I slip up all the time anyway lol.

Redlemon · 09-21-2005, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys

And why do cuss words offend anyhow? If someone calls me Sir, Mister or Hey! Asshole! it's all the same to me.

Cuss words offend because that is their meaning and their purpose. If you are not indending to offend (or at least provoke a reaction), why use a profanity?

pig · 09-21-2005, 09:53 AM

This thread is making me want to watch South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut

/shut your fucking face uncle fucker...

Charlatan · 09-21-2005, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys

Community does not require much in the way of language. Tribal communities often have extremely simple language and cannot express nearly as much as we can. They communicate only for the sake of working together. This makes PC even more moot, but also limits the possibilities. I think there are things that build community that are FAR more important, and less restrictive than PC language or not saying "fuck". Perhaps pay less attention to trying so hard not to offend people, and at the same time, be less offended by others. It allows for free(er) speech, and allows people to work together without getting all in a tizzy.

I think you have missed the point of language.

We live in a very complex world. We have developed a complex language to understand this world. ALL meaning and understand derives from language.
Just to be clear, without language there is no meaning or understanding.

The word fuck carries with it a number of meanings most of which are related to the context in which it is used. However, regardless of context it is generally understood that fuck is a base word. Using it freely, signifies the user of the word as lower class or uncouth.

For example, I do not like to wear suits and ties. That said, I own several suits (as well as the associated accessories) as it is important when I am going on a sales trip that I look the part of a "respectable businessman". Wearing a suit signifies this to my intended audience. They see the suit and make an assumption. If I then proceed to speak Eubonics at them, heavily laced with "swear" words. Their opinion would change.

We have complex language so I can say, "Fuck you!" and you know that I don't mean, "Good morning!"

I also think you have missed the point when you say, "freer speech". You are free to say what you like. But if you wish to be understood you follow the general rules that apply to being understood.

Again, the cool thing about language is that you can play with these rules. You can change and alter meanings freely. Language is fluid like that. The problem is, if you are the only one engaged in this change, you will quickly find out that nobody understands you, thereby defeating the purpose of language in the first place.

Charlatan · 09-21-2005, 10:09 AM

As an additional note... please read George Orwell's 1984. It gives an interesting example of why a complex language is important.

It's double plus good!

ElvenDestiny · 09-21-2005, 10:23 AM

All said I do agree with the OP it is sad that words have to be so 'conservative' for a lack of a better description. I'm sure everyone wishes they could say whatever they want and it be accepted and that no one would get offended, Just as im sure everyone wishes they could wear whatever they want and no one get offended.

I think Charlatan made a really good point with the suite. As much as anyone hates to wear a monkey suit its still considered to be the dress code for a successful person, does this mean that if you wear blue jeans and a leather jacket everywhere that you will never be successful? No, depends on the situation which further more strengthens the OP's point, So either way you look at everyone in this post (besides probably me lol for my lack of understand the F word originally) is correct because its all circumstantial. If you say it in the right manner at the right time then it will hold a completely different meaning, but that’s just one thing that makes our language so complex.

Charlatan · 09-21-2005, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElvenDestiny

All said I do agree with the OP it is sad that words have to be so 'conservative' for a lack of a better description. I'm sure everyone wishes they could say whatever they want and it be accepted and that no one would get offended, Just as im sure everyone wishes they could wear whatever they want and no one get offended.

1) I don't see language as "conservative" at all. It can be conservative it can be loose and free... it can be anything you want it to be. Language is just a tool we used to understand the world around us.

2) I can't understand why anyone would want to say whatever they want? The whole point of being understood is that we have shared meanings to words. If some of us used the word "gratch" to signify the yellow peeled fruit while another group used the word "banana" to signify the same object, there would be a lot of confusion. As speakers of the English language we have agreed, historically, that the word "banana" is the word we use to signify the yellow peeled fruit. If we just used any old word meaning would be lost.

The same is true when you are trying to be specific. I could say, please pass me the screw. I could get more specific and say, please pass me a 2 inch #8 robertson wood screw. The second request gets a lot closer to exactly what I am looking for... of course I could just get off my ass and get the screw myself. To add to the complexity of language and dual meanings, I could walk up to a lady and ask, "Wanna screw?" If she doesn't see the peice of metal I am proffering with my left hand, she might be offended.

Context is eveything.

I don't want to just be able to say fuck or nigger or asshat all the time. To do this would degrade the meaning of the words. If fuck was not a harsh word. If it were as innocuous as the word flower (for example) it would not be as satisfying when shout, "Fuck!" after hitting my finger with a hammer.

Try it now. Smash your finger with a hammer and yell, "Flower!". Just not as effective is it?

Redlemon · 09-21-2005, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElvenDestiny

I'm sure everyone wishes they could say whatever they want and it be accepted and that no one would get offended, Just as im sure everyone wishes they could wear whatever they want and no one get offended.

Nope, not at all.

There are times that you want to offend. I almost never use profanity. When I do swear, people (who know me) stop and pay attention to me. It gets a reaction.

xepherys · 09-21-2005, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

As an additional note... please read George Orwell's 1984. It gives an interesting example of why a complex language is important.

It's double plus good!

It's my favorite book. But it also supports my points in some ways. It shows that language is more than just a facility of communication. Newspeak allows for perfect communication of ideas and would allow for society to progress. good, plus good and double plus good are no better or worse than good, great, excellent if you understand the attempted meaning. They convey the same thought. How does additional "wiggle room" in how you say somethign benefit society? That, against what you posted earlier, shows that meanings of words have less to do with formation of society. Yes, the rules can be played with, but who makes those decisions. When you hear someone say "Far out!" you think surfer boy. What if you caught that as a piece and they were tlaking about something far away. You ASSUMPTION may be that thay're some dumb beach bum talking about a killer wave. Allowing for great variances in language (as opposed to Newspeak) is both a blessing and a curse. It allows you to use a dozen different words to describe the same thing... but it also leaves any one word up for a dozen interpretations.

I'm intelligent and well-read. I swear often. It's not because I don't have anything better to say. It's not because I'm white trash. It's because often, those words convey the feeling I mean to get out. I'm not haughty, I'm not British, I'm not anything that's going to make me say "You, my good man, are truly inept and are making me quite agitated. Please move so that I may pass!" rather than saying "Look fuckstick, get the hell outta my way!" The first, though proper and saying the same thing would be less effective in most instances, and makes me sound like some snooty fool.

xepherys · 09-21-2005, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

The whole point of being understood is that we have shared meanings to words. If some of us used the word "gratch" to signify the yellow peeled fruit while another group used the word "banana" to signify the same object, there would be a lot of confusion. As speakers of the English language we have agreed, historically, that the word "banana" is the word we use to signify the yellow peeled fruit. If we just used any old word meaning would be lost.

Well, that's not entirely true. Look at ebonics, or more specifically modern urban speech. It constantly changes, quickly, and often is hard to follow. But when you speak it everyday, things make sense. Fo' shizzle my brizzle! shizzle doesn't sound like sure except for having the same first few letters. But in context it makes sense. If you are at the grocery store and say "I need to get a bunch of banizzles yo!" someone who is familiar with those language constructs may assume you mean banana without you needing to explain it, or without them needing to have ever heard the word banizzle before. My wife and I play at this often, trying to talk in non-sensible language to each other. Most of the time, we still understand, if even ONLY by context. it shows that a commonality does not need to be present if context is basically understood. Theoretically, the same could be said regarding dialects of language. Mandarin and Cantonese show this as well as dialects here in the US. If someone says they're thirsty and needs to find a bubbler... one might (as I did the first time I heard exactly this) assume bubbler means water fountain (or drinking fountain) without ever having heard the word before. Soda vs. pop vs. Coke (calling all pop/soda "coke" did confuse me the first time though, I must admit).

Maybe it'd be interesting to see HOW different language can be before context no longer pulls it back together for someone else.

ElvenDestiny · 09-21-2005, 11:06 AM

Is it a good reaction though Redlemon? I will say when I was in high school if some would have cursed they would get a reaction from me and it would have probably been the on they wanted, but today, if someone were to curse to gather some attention, my first response would be "is that really necessary?"

As for the smashing finger thing, in my youth I was always more fond of "SON OF A BITCH" but now a days when working on my car and hurting my self I'm more inclined to say "Son of a mother truck chest" DON'T ask its a high school joke that has stuck with me through all these last years.

Have any of you seen The Man? As much a dork Eugene Levy plays in there you can’t deny the logic behind what he says to Samuel Jackson.

I believe it went something like this. “ In stead of saying Fuck all the time add cry-in out loud to the end. I.E Fuck Cry-in out loud, and eventually before you know it your saying For Crying Out Loud.”

Of course that was a butchering of the actual thing said, but if you haven’t seen the movie it conveys a good understanding that there are other ways to express something without using curse words.

And in the end you offend someone a lot better without the use of curse words.

You say to me “Fuck you, you stupid whore” I can return with, “Please do not confuse me with your mother.” Of course I played off of your profanities, but did not use any myself.

pig · 09-21-2005, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I think you have missed the point of language.

We live in a very complex world. We have developed a complex language to understand this world. ALL meaning and understand derives from language.
Just to be clear, without language there is no meaning or understanding.

Can I agree with the italicized, and not the bold? It seems to me that if you don't have something to describe, language is useless. I'm not trying to be a %(*$)$ - I've known some people who state that all experience is the results of language (or seem to) and I'm curious if this is your position?

Charlatan · 09-21-2005, 11:08 AM

You could also just say, "Excuse me".

There is a range of ways you can ask people to get out of the way that are appropriate to most of the instances in which you might find someone in your path.

If you needed to get to the coffee stir sticks at the coffee shop but someone was blocking your access, using, "Look fuckstick, get the hell outta my way!" would be rude. I am assuming that your intention is not to be rude, rather it is just that you want access to your stir sticks...

Calling the guy in your path a "fuckstick" is pretty insulting especially when used in combination with, "get the hell outta my way."

Now, if you had said, "excuse me" a couple of times and the fuckstick didn't budge, "Look fuckstick, get the hell outta my way!" is probably more appropriate.

As for newspeak. Were we to adapt such a precise and truncated way or communication there would be no room for words like, "fuckstick" or any other expressive explitive you case to choose.

Newspeak dumbs down language and renders complex meaning impossible. It also, according the novel, makes language much more succeptable to double think (read: political manipulation of meaning).

As for "Far out", again context is everything. If I heard "far out" spoken one way, let's say with a stuffy upper class English accent it signify differently from "far out" as spoken by a California surfer.

Further context is added to the usage, "far out" in answer to the question, "How far is Pluto from the Sun?" is different from "far out" in reply to this statement, "Dude! Pluto is millions of miles from the Sun."

martinguerre · 09-21-2005, 11:08 AM

i'm not quite sure what you're argueing against, xepherys.

i don't see any defense of the whole scale ossification of langauge.

but i don't think it's ironic that polite means citizen in greek. the discourse, the ways of being in a political affiliation (and by political, i mean that which relates to a polity, a self-defined community) are not entirely open to debate. certainly, the mark of a free society is to extend great leeway, and to expect by and large that citizens/participants value that freedom and will not restrict it in others purely for their own comfort. that said, to expect that others will not value your opinion of them is to restrict the possible meaning of community.

perhaps you are okay with a community that simply exists as a sounding box, a place where ideas fly. but i would posit that for a deeper, more affiliative community requires more investment than that. and that investment may cause us to evalute our choices in language. i may not be x, y, or z, but out of respect for those people, i will choose not to use languge that creates miscommunication between us. if you chose to have absolute freedom in your words, go on, do so. but do not be surprised if people choose freely to abandon community with you on the grounds that your communication has suffered.

BTW, if you think 1984 supports your point, you miss Orwell's larger thesis on language and communication. Read his classic essay, "Why I Write" for a more straightforward application of the same ideas.

ElvenDestiny · 09-21-2005, 11:41 AM

You know alittle off topic but still on, I must say Xep you choose a good name for the topic, I was just thinking about it.

xepherys · 09-21-2005, 01:46 PM

Well, perhaps I got a bit off my initial path. I DO understand, at least with my interpretation, Orwell's overall concepts. First, in response to Charlatan, I'm not sure doublespeak doesn't exist in modern US politics than it ever could've been portrayed in 1984. While we may have a plethora of words at our disposal, we fear using many of them in varying company. Realistically this goes back to some of my initial points, though I suppose I mostly was speaking to offensive language. What is offensive changes from person to person. What do you call an African-American? Personally, I think African American is ridiculous. Negro? Black? Nigger? Colored? You can't say there is never a need for such a distinguishment. What if a crime is perpetrated by an anglo-saxon, and chinaman and a person of African decent. How would you describe them in a way that would offend NOBODY? It's virtually impossible. White? Yellow? Black? Asian? Asian opens up a lot, as does white. Black is semi-straight forward, and you can't say "dark" or "brown" because that could me someone from the Mediterranean(sp?) or of Hispanic origins. So black seems to be the most common. But that offends some people's sensibilities.

Back to point (sorry, it's easy for me to derail, especially at work), while common speech can still offend even when intended not to, politicians in the US use this against us, along with other linguistical anomolies to make statements that are either false or partial-truths and preach them as fact. Part of this is how language is being scuplted with political correctness, and part of this is the gross apathy of the American people.

At any rate, doublespeak has come to life without the need for Newspeak. Those that feel the need and have the ability are slowly shaping the use of English in this country, and it doesn't seem like it will stop anytime soon.

ScottKuma · 09-21-2005, 02:48 PM

I tend to disagree with Xepherys's point. We ARE judged by the words we speak. We are also judged by how we use those words. If we use words in a way that is perceived as derogatory, we are judged by that...no matter what our intent was!

Anyhow, I'm not sure whether the following proves Xepherys's point, or everyone else's. I have always found this to be funny, and particularly poignant in a number of instances...this is one of them.

(sorry so long!)

As found on the internet:

Quote:

Meanings of 'fuck'
from The Alternative Dictionaries

fuck (noun)

----(no meaning) Term can be used with the definite article as a pure expletive in sentence initial position: 'What the fuck are you doing, Mary?' 'The fuck you say!' It can also be used with the definite article: 'Like fuck I'm going to date Mary tonight!'

----the act of fucking' (roughly) Synonymous with 'piece of ass.' 'John had a hot fuck last night.'

fuck (verb, intransitive)

----have intercourse See fuck (transitive). Here, it must have a conjoined subject: John and Mary are fucking.

fuck (verb, transitive)

----to have intercourse with someone. This word was once considered the most unacceptable word in English. In the last twenty years it has become more acceptable in various contexts. Still not acceptable in parlour room contexts, in school, etc. Though banned on American TV it can be heard on Canadian TV and radio in certain limited cases.

fuck around (verb, intransitive)

----do nothing imporant or nothing at all. "John's just fucking around today."

----go away Used an expletive to indicate to indicate mild annoyance: "Well, fuck around!"

fuck around (verb, transitive)

----To be somehwt dishonest with someone. "John's fucking Mary around all the time." fuck me harder (sentence, idiom)

----Expression in response to an unwanted and undesirable action done to the speaker.

fuck off (verb, intransitive)

----go away Usually used as a command in an uncomplementary sense: "Fuck off, asshole!" fuck oneself (verb phrase)

----get lost Outside of the literal meaning which few males can do, this expression has abouat the same meaning as 'get lost'; i.e. go away.: Mary told John to go fuck himself.

fuck up (verb, intransitive)

----make a mistake See fuck (transitive).

fuck up (verb, transitive)

----(1) to make a mess out of something, (2) to cause someone to become psychologically unstable. See fuck up (intransitive). (1) "John really fucked his assignment up." (2) "John's parents really fucked him up."

fucked (past tense of fuck), (passive participle)

----(1) to be psychologically maladjusted, (2) to be a mess (of situations and certain objects) Derived from and generally synonymous with 'fuck up'. "John is really fucked." "John's project is fucked beyond hope."

fucked up (passive participle)

----(1) to be psychologically maladjusted, (2) to be a mess (of situations and certain objects) See 'fuck up'. to be using larger doses of drugs than normal such as alcohol or acid Used in the drug community for people who are tripping hard.

fucker (noun)

----a male person Derogatory term: 'The little fucker stole 10 bucks.'

----One who fucks 'John is a squirrely fucker.'

fucking (adjective)

----(no specific meaning) term is commonly used as an expletive with a pejorative sense: 'John is a fucking asshole.'

The Versatility of the Word Fuck

Famous uses of "Fuck"

What the fuck was that? -- The Mayor of Hiroshima

Look at all these fucking Indians -- General Custer

Full speed ahead and fuck the icebergs! -- Captain of the Titanic

That's not a fucking real gun -- John Lennon

The fucking throttle's stuck -- Donald Campbell

Who's going to fucking know? -- President Nixon

Heads are going to fucking roll -- Henry VIII

Who let that fucking woman drive? -- Space Shuttle Captain

Watch him, he'll have some fucker's eye out -- King Harold

Scattered showers! my fucking ass -- Noah

Where the fuck have you been? -- Stanley to Livingstone

Can you smell fucking gas? -- Captain of the Hindenburg

Fuck you Brutus! -- Julius Caesar

It can be used when...

Apathetic: -- Well who gives a fuck anyway?

Aggressive: -- Fuck you!

Annoyed: -- I got fucked at the used car lot.

Confused: -- What the fuck?

in Denial: -- I didn't fucking do it.

Directing: -- Fuck off.

in Disbelief: -- How the fuck did you do that?

Defiant: -- The fuck you can!

Derisive: -- He fucks everything up.

in Despair: -- Fucked again.

in Difficulty: -- I can't understand this fucking business.

Dismayed: -- Oh, fuck it!

Displeased: -- What the fuck is going on here?

Greeting: -- How the fuck are you?

Ignorant: -- Fucked if I know.

indicating Incompetence: -- He's all fucked up!

in Panic: -- Let's get the fuck out of here.

Perplexed: -- I know fuck all about it.

Resigned: -- Oh fuck it

Suspicious: -- Who the fuck are you?

Surprised: -- Holy Fuck!!!

When walking out of a dark building into sunlight -- It's Bright as Fuck!

When entering a hot room -- It's Hot as Fuck!

When in a parking lot -- That guy parked superfucking close to you!

analog · 09-21-2005, 10:14 PM

Language serves as a medium for communication. By nature, it expands to accomodate new words, naturally shifting the vernacular, and sloughs off some words into obsolescence, all without our interference.

Words carry meaning because we give them meaning. Words can harm because we "allow" them to, but the real reason words can harm is because we give them meaning, and honor their meaning implicitly. Cuss words are no more a party to this than any other word.

Slang is the best example of what I mean, as one day a perfectly normal word can take on a different, often negative, meaning. Take pussy, for example. Starts as a cat's name, is referenced as a nickname for a vagina, and now it's a slang term for a wimp, a wuss, someone weak. Pussy is mean because we give it that value, and over a period of time and use, that value is now intrinsic to it, and we automatically assign that value to it on a subconscious level when we hear it.

Take our monetary system for another example. Money is worthless. Without the government that prints it, it's paper with a dead president on it. It has value because we've given it value. We now recognize each bill and their relative assigned value to purchase goods and services. The concept of assigning value is the same.

The point is, if you choose to personally unassign the value of a word for yourself, that's all well and good for you- but the common meaning will persist, no matter what, until its time has come to be replaced or kicked out.

(side note: I just read 1984 and I'm pretty much positive the whole point of newspeak was orwell showing the government trying that much harder to remove individuality and personality from everything, including everyday speech. While good, plusgood, and doubleplusgood may be ok for good, great, and awesome, that is hardly an example of the intent of the language. The language was specifically created and continually tweaked to remove redundancies from the language. This could only serve to hinder communication, which was another component of the point of the Newspeak... just another form of control through denial of personality..

Charlatan · 09-22-2005, 05:42 AM

Doublethink and doublespeak do not require newspeak to exist. All that is required is a good PR firm and/or marketing...

Language is easily manipulated. It is both its greatest weakness and its greatest strength.

I will refer you to this thread -- Mass Media Mind Control -- for a lengthier discussion on this...

Redlemon · 09-22-2005, 07:22 AM

Yesterday's New York Times: Almost Before We Spoke, We Swore (I'm not sure if that link will work or not, so hang on for a long quote)

Quote:

September 20, 2005
Almost Before We Spoke, We Swore
By NATALIE ANGIER

Incensed by what it sees as a virtual pandemic of verbal vulgarity issuing from the diverse likes of Howard Stern, Bono of U2 and Robert Novak, the United States Senate is poised to consider a bill that would sharply increase the penalty for obscenity on the air.

By raising the fines that would be levied against offending broadcasters some fifteenfold, to a fee of about $500,000 per crudity broadcast, and by threatening to revoke the licenses of repeat polluters, the Senate seeks to return to the public square the gentler tenor of yesteryear, when seldom were heard any scurrilous words, and famous guys were not foul mouthed all day.

Yet researchers who study the evolution of language and the psychology of swearing say that they have no idea what mystic model of linguistic gentility the critics might have in mind. Cursing, they say, is a human universal. Every language, dialect or patois ever studied, living or dead, spoken by millions or by a small tribe, turns out to have its share of forbidden speech, some variant on comedian George Carlin's famous list of the seven dirty words that are not supposed to be uttered on radio or television.

Young children will memorize the illicit inventory long before they can grasp its sense, said John McWhorter, a scholar of linguistics at the Manhattan Institute and the author of "The Power of Babel," and literary giants have always constructed their art on its spine.

"The Jacobean dramatist Ben Jonson peppered his plays with fackings and "peremptorie Asses," and Shakespeare could hardly quill a stanza without inserting profanities of the day like "zounds" or "sblood" - offensive contractions of "God's wounds" and "God's blood" - or some wondrous sexual pun.

The title "Much Ado About Nothing," Dr. McWhorter said, is a word play on "Much Ado About an O Thing," the O thing being a reference to female genitalia.

Even the quintessential Good Book abounds in naughty passages like the men in II Kings 18:27 who, as the comparatively tame King James translation puts it, "eat their own dung, and drink their own piss."

In fact, said Guy Deutscher, a linguist at the University of Leiden in the Netherlands and the author of "The Unfolding of Language: An Evolutionary Tour of Mankind's Greatest Invention," the earliest writings, which date from 5,000 years ago, include their share of off-color descriptions of the human form and its ever-colorful functions. And the written record is merely a reflection of an oral tradition that Dr. Deutscher and many other psychologists and evolutionary linguists suspect dates from the rise of the human larynx, if not before.

Some researchers are so impressed by the depth and power of strong language that they are using it as a peephole into the architecture of the brain, as a means of probing the tangled, cryptic bonds between the newer, "higher" regions of the brain in charge of intellect, reason and planning, and the older, more "bestial" neural neighborhoods that give birth to our emotions.

Researchers point out that cursing is often an amalgam of raw, spontaneous feeling and targeted, gimlet-eyed cunning. When one person curses at another, they say, the curser rarely spews obscenities and insults at random, but rather will assess the object of his wrath, and adjust the content of the "uncontrollable" outburst accordingly.

Because cursing calls on the thinking and feeling pathways of the brain in roughly equal measure and with handily assessable fervor, scientists say that by studying the neural circuitry behind it they are gaining new insights into how the different domains of the brain communicate - and all for the sake of a well-venomed retort.

Other investigators have examined the physiology of cursing, how our senses and reflexes react to the sound or sight of an obscene word. They have determined that hearing a curse elicits a literal rise out of people. When electrodermal wires are placed on people's arms and fingertips to study their skin conductance patterns and the subjects then hear a few obscenities spoken clearly and firmly, participants show signs of instant arousal.

Their skin conductance patterns spike, the hairs on their arms rise, their pulse quickens, and their breathing becomes shallow.

Interestingly, said Kate Burridge, a professor of linguistics at Monash University in Melbourne, Australia, a similar reaction occurs among university students and others who pride themselves on being educated when they listen to bad grammar or slang expressions that they regard as irritating, illiterate or déclassé.

"People can feel very passionate about language," she said, "as though it were a cherished artifact that must be protected at all cost against the depravities of barbarians and lexical aliens."

Dr. Burridge and a colleague at Monash, Keith Allan, are the authors of "Forbidden Words: Taboo and the Censoring of Language," which will be published early next year by the Cambridge University Press.

Researchers have also found that obscenities can get under one's goosebumped skin and then refuse to budge. In one study, scientists started with the familiar Stroop test, in which subjects are flashed a series of words written in different colors and are asked to react by calling out the colors of the words rather than the words themselves.

If the subjects see the word "chair" written in yellow letters, they are supposed to say "yellow."

The researchers then inserted a number of obscenities and vulgarities in the standard lineup. Charting participants' immediate and delayed responses, the researchers found that, first of all, people needed significantly more time to trill out the colors of the curse words than they did for neutral terms like chair.

The experience of seeing titillating text obviously distracted the participants from the color-coding task at hand. Yet those risqué interpolations left their mark. In subsequent memory quizzes, not only were participants much better at recalling the naughty words than they were the neutrals, but that superior recall also applied to the tints of the tainted words, as well as to their sense.

Yes, it is tough to toil in the shadow of trash. When researchers in another study asked participants to quickly scan lists of words that included obscenities and then to recall as many of the words as possible, the subjects were, once again, best at rehashing the curses - and worst at summoning up whatever unobjectionable entries happened to precede or follow the bad bits.

Yet as much as bad language can deliver a jolt, it can help wash away stress and anger. In some settings, the free flow of foul language may signal not hostility or social pathology, but harmony and tranquillity.

"Studies show that if you're with a group of close friends, the more relaxed you are, the more you swear," Dr. Burridge said. "It's a way of saying: 'I'm so comfortable here I can let off steam. I can say whatever I like.' "

Evidence also suggests that cursing can be an effective means of venting aggression and thereby forestalling physical violence.

With the help of a small army of students and volunteers, Timothy B. Jay, a professor of psychology at Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts in North Adams and the author of "Cursing in America" and "Why We Curse," has explored the dynamics of cursing in great detail.

The investigators have found, among other things, that men generally curse more than women, unless said women are in a sorority, and that university provosts swear more than librarians or the staff members of the university day care center.

Regardless of who is cursing or what the provocation may be, Dr. Jay said, the rationale for the eruption is often the same.

"Time and again, people have told me that cursing is a coping mechanism for them, a way of reducing stress," he said in a telephone interview. "It's a form of anger management that is often underappreciated."

Indeed, chimpanzees engage in what appears to be a kind of cursing match as a means of venting aggression and avoiding a potentially dangerous physical clash.

Frans de Waal, a professor of primate behavior at Emory University in Atlanta, said that when chimpanzees were angry "they will grunt or spit or make an abrupt, upsweeping gesture that, if a human were to do it, you'd recognize it as aggressive."

Such behaviors are threat gestures, Professor de Waal said, and they are all a good sign.

"A chimpanzee who is really gearing up for a fight doesn't waste time with gestures, but just goes ahead and attacks," he added.

By the same token, he said, nothing is more deadly than a person who is too enraged for expletives - who cleanly and quietly picks up a gun and starts shooting.

Researchers have also examined how words attain the status of forbidden speech and how the evolution of coarse language affects the smoother sheets of civil discourse stacked above it. They have found that what counts as taboo language in a given culture is often a mirror into that culture's fears and fixations.

"In some cultures, swear words are drawn mainly from sex and bodily functions, whereas in others, they're drawn mainly from the domain of religion," Dr. Deutscher said.

In societies where the purity and honor of women is of paramount importance, he said, "it's not surprising that many swear words are variations on the 'son of a whore' theme or refer graphically to the genitalia of the person's mother or sisters."

The very concept of a swear word or an oath originates from the profound importance that ancient cultures placed on swearing by the name of a god or gods. In ancient Babylon, swearing by the name of a god was meant to give absolute certainty against lying, Dr. Deutscher said, "and people believed that swearing falsely by a god would bring the terrible wrath of that god upon them." A warning against any abuse of the sacred oath is reflected in the biblical commandment that one must not "take the Lord's name in vain," and even today courtroom witnesses swear on the Bible that they are telling the whole truth and nothing but.

Among Christians, the stricture against taking the Lord's name in vain extended to casual allusions to God's son or the son's corporeal sufferings - no mention of the blood or the wounds or the body, and that goes for clever contractions, too. Nowadays, the phrase, "Oh, golly!" may be considered almost comically wholesome, but it was not always so. "Golly" is a compaction of "God's body" and, thus, was once a profanity.

Yet neither biblical commandment nor the most zealous Victorian censor can elide from the human mind its hand-wringing over the unruly human body, its chronic, embarrassing demands and its sad decay. Discomfort over body functions never sleeps, Dr. Burridge said, and the need for an ever-fresh selection of euphemisms about dirty subjects has long served as an impressive engine of linguistic invention.

Once a word becomes too closely associated with a specific body function, she said, once it becomes too evocative of what should not be evoked, it starts to enter the realm of the taboo and must be replaced by a new, gauzier euphemism.

For example, the word "toilet" stems from the French word for "little towel" and was originally a pleasantly indirect way of referring to the place where the chamber pot or its equivalent resides. But toilet has since come to mean the porcelain fixture itself, and so sounds too blunt to use in polite company. Instead, you ask your tuxedoed waiter for directions to the ladies' room or the restroom or, if you must, the bathroom.

Similarly, the word "coffin" originally meant an ordinary box, but once it became associated with death, that was it for a "shoe coffin" or "thinking outside the coffin." The taboo sense of a word, Dr. Burridge said, "always drives out any other senses it might have had."

Scientists have lately sought to map the neural topography of forbidden speech by studying Tourette's patients who suffer from coprolalia, the pathological and uncontrollable urge to curse. Tourette's syndrome is a neurological disorder of unknown origin characterized predominantly by chronic motor and vocal tics, a constant grimacing or pushing of one's glasses up the bridge of one's nose or emitting a stream of small yips or grunts.

Just a small percentage of Tourette's patients have coprolalia - estimates range from 8 to 30 percent - and patient advocates are dismayed by popular portrayals of Tourette's as a humorous and invariably scatological condition. But for those who do have coprolalia, said Dr. Carlos Singer, director of the division of movement disorders at the University of Miami School of Medicine, the symptom is often the most devastating and humiliating aspect of their condition.

Not only can it be shocking to people to hear a loud volley of expletives erupt for no apparent reason, sometimes from the mouth of a child or young teenager, but the curses can also be provocative and personal, florid slurs against the race, sexual identity or body size of a passer-by, for example, or deliberate and repeated lewd references to an old lover's name while in the arms of a current partner or spouse.

Reporting in The Archives of General Psychiatry, Dr. David A. Silbersweig, a director of neuropsychiatry and neuroimaging at the Weill Medical College of Cornell University, and his colleagues described their use of PET scans to measure cerebral blood flow and identify which regions of the brain are galvanized in Tourette's patients during episodes of tics and coprolalia.

They found strong activation of the basal ganglia, a quartet of neuron clusters deep in the forebrain at roughly the level of the mid-forehead, that are known to help coordinate body movement along with activation of crucial regions of the left rear forebrain that participate in comprehending and generating speech, most notably Broca's area.

The researchers also saw arousal of neural circuits that interact with the limbic system, the wishbone-shape throne of human emotions, and, significantly, of the "executive" realms of the brain, where decisions to act or desist from acting may be carried out: the neural source, scientists said, of whatever conscience, civility or free will humans can claim.

That the brain's executive overseer is ablaze in an outburst of coprolalia, Dr. Silbersweig said, demonstrates how complex an act the urge to speak the unspeakable may be, and not only in the case of Tourette's. The person is gripped by a desire to curse, to voice something wildly inappropriate. Higher-order linguistic circuits are tapped, to contrive the content of the curse. The brain's impulse control center struggles to short-circuit the collusion between limbic system urge and neocortical craft, and it may succeed for a time.

Yet the urge mounts, until at last the speech pathways fire, the verboten is spoken, and archaic and refined brains alike must shoulder the blame.

Charlatan · 09-22-2005, 07:36 AM

How apropos... interesting article.

d*d · 09-22-2005, 07:42 AM

What your talking about here is deconstructionism

"<em>deconstructionism is a challenge to the attempt to establish any ultimate or secure meaning in a text. Basing itself in language analysis, it seeks to "deconstruct" the ideological biases (gender, racial, economic, political, cultural) and traditional assumptions that infect all histories, as well as philosophical and religious "truths." </em>"

It is also refers to Saussre (check spelling) and semantics, there are descriptive words such as tree and sky which can be agreed upon by pointing to the object in the real world, you can't point at excellent since it is an abstract notion and is purely subjective- language is fluid and changes constantly, you would have a hard time understanding english (which is in itself a mix of french, scandinavian and latin with a germanic root) from previous centuries, the words we use are only a fraction of the communication process (thats why we have to employ these damn emoticons

to add meaning to our posts. It would be impossible to have a fixed language with no room for interpretation, although this would make lawyers obsolete, because it would mean that the association we have with a word would need to be the same for each person.

Charlatan · 09-22-2005, 07:52 AM

I was trying to avoid getting into Saussure, Derrida, et al.

BigBen · 09-22-2005, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys

... I'd like to make clear that I care what other's think, or I would not participate in the TFP. I do not, however, care much what others think OF me. If someone wants to insult me, for insults sake or for whatever reason, it doesn't bother me....

To clarify the point, may I argue the opposite for a moment?

What if others think very highly of you? Can you still make the claim that you don't care what people think of you, if they hold you in great regard?

I think seriously about people's opinion of me. I want to be respected; I would try to ammend a slight I had given someone accidentally.

I am always aware that communication includes choice of words, tone and body language. I have to think it, then code it in my mind, then send it. The person I am communicating with must hear it, decode it and then understand it.

This process is tricky, and the choice of words can make or break communication.

BTW, I used to use the word 'fuck' more often. I realized that by doing this I was watering it down so that when I really wanted to use it, it held less meaning to those around me. I now reserve it for special occasions.

d*d · 09-22-2005, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I was trying to avoid getting into Saussure, Derrida, et al.

Why? it deals directly with the original posters thoughts, although discussions about Derrida tend to be self defeating eventually.

ElvenDestiny · 09-22-2005, 08:11 AM

BigBen if anything I can second Xep's opinion on that matter, I am highly respected where I work by the agents and fellow employees for my knowledge of computers/networks/ and call centers, I however do not care, In other places such as in a computer stores my knowledge of computers is dismissed because every computer geek thinks they know it all.

Secondly my grandmother thinks im a Satan worshiping homosexual. Don’t ask me why she's just crazy like that.

And many other people have had good and bad opinions about me right and left.

The way I look at it is this, two sayings that I live by when dealing with what others think.

1) "If I was meant to be otherwise, I would have been created otherwise" (for the reason of me not being Christian I removed the mention of god from that saying and im not sure who said it.)

And the other one is,

2) "I was not put on this earth to meet you expectations, As you were not put on this earth to meet mine” Bruce Lee

So its almost as simple as, if you like me great, if you don’t oh well your lose, either way lets get on with life. I can care less if someone likes me or not as long as they respect me, but as a whole I care not what people think about me.

xepherys · 09-22-2005, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElvenDestiny

2) "I was not put on this earth to meet you expectations, As you were not put on this earth to meet mine” Bruce Lee

The good Mr. Lee always had such a way with words. This is exactly it! I am me and you are you and life goes on. Live and let live.

ElvenDestiny · 09-22-2005, 08:38 PM

I will agree he does, you should read some of his others, they bring some really good insite to alot of things

Redlemon · 09-23-2005, 07:28 AM

OK, I've restrained myself long enough. What this thread needs is more pirates. Specifically, it needs:

Captain Feathersword, the Friendly Pirate!

/ I hate the Wiggles.

09-20-2005, 12:25 PM	#1 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	Words of the feather, words of the sword... I debated whether to post this here or in Tilted Politics. Here won the toss up. I wonder why people allow words, whose very meanings shift and evolve over time, to weigh so heavily over them. I first really started thinking about it while reading another TFP post about "pet names" and people using such names as 'hun', 'cutie', 'sweetie' with people they didn't know. But this extends to all language. As language is a tool to convey thoughts, one must realize that someone's thoughts may not be parallel to their own, and that the same word can have many meanings. Nowhere is this seen more than the US in today's "politically correct" circles. Take the word "nigger". Now I understand that in it's initial creation, it had a negative intent. It was meant to belittle. But that was in a time long ago, generations past. Sure, some people still try to use the word as an insult against blacks, colored folk, african americans... whatever the hell dark skinned people in the US with African heritage are called these days. Maybe the PC crowd will adapt that... "Dark skinned US citizens with African heritage". sigh But if black people didn't CARE anymore, the word would have no meaning... no weight. I don't care if somneone calls me an asshole, or a honkey, or a fucktard. I don't care WHAT people call me, even if it's surely meant as an insult. Why is that? Because I just don't care. Why does anyone? If I dislike you enough to insult you, why does that hurt you? Especially if you don't even know me?! I have a hard time understanding words with sexual conotations as well. Who cares if a 10 y/o boy calls them boobs, or tits. I mean... really. They are what they are. Are you more upset that he's noticed they exist or that he used one word versus another. Breasts? Ta-tas? Dirty pillows? Who cares? I don't care if you call my penis a dick... a prick... a schlong... Why do you care what I call your milk pups? Which dives further into children. Kids are sponges... they'll say what they hear. Well, sort of. Frankly, I'm a firm believer in "do what I say, not what I do". Kids are kids and adults are adults. Of course! Wow, some people forget that. If your kid says something nasty, you tell them it's not the right thing to do. Ground them... spank their toosh. Every parent reacts differently. But don't tell me you've never said something nasty about someone else. It happens. It's human nature. So what is a sixth grader yells at another sixth grader. Kids are kids. Why can't adults let kids be kids anymore? No wonder they go around shooting places up. Okay, that got off topic, let's move back. Cuss words, swear words, sailor talk. Watever you want to call it. Fuck shit damn cunt whorebag hell ass... Who are we protecting from these words? The FCC would have you presume we are protecting innocent children whose virgin ears could not possibly tolerate such vulgarities. But seriously? Show me a child over 3 that has never had a cussword, and I'll show you a liar. (that would be you) Even moreso with their attempts to censor cable/sat which we PAY for. Why do these conservative asshats think they have a right to tell me what's okay for me to listen to. Or for MY child to listen to. If i want my son to be planted in front of XXX XXX XXX rated TV for his whole pre-teen life, so be it. Sure, I would never do that... but it's not someone else's place to tell me not to. And why do cuss words offend anyhow? If someone calls me Sir, Mister or Hey! Asshole! it's all the same to me. I'll either respond to them or not. Frankly, I'm no more or less inclined to respond to complete strangers regardless of the three samples used. I guess this goes full circle. Why do words hurt? it makes no sense to me. There's no logic behind it. A word can only hurt you as much as you let it.

09-20-2005, 01:10 PM	#2 (permalink)
ElvenDestiny Tilted Location: Pittsburgh, Pa	I think it was George Carlin nonetheless that said people are only as intelligent as the words/language they use. Now whether or not saying 'fuck' makes you any more or less smarter I don’t know, but I do know on a personal level someone walking around saying "fuck" all the time is quiet annoying. It tells me the person lacks the ability to say anything intelligent and has to resort to saying something not even knowing its real definition. The point of using a word, which you are correct, is to express an emotion, a feeling, a definition, to describe. Curse words do not have this ability as they are made up words or words with a different meaning than what the person is using them as. (Yes I know we have made up all words). The word fuck indicates an act of intercourse. So if someone says to me "for fucks sake" my initial response is that they just said "For an act of intercourses sake" which makes absolutely no sense what so ever, and this is coming from someone with horrible grammar and smelling lol. This is an argument I had with my girlfriend a long time ago who is a total bookworm. And of course she won cause I now see it the same as she. Ultimately it boils down to this, why does it matter what kids says? Do you want your kid walking around saying fuck you every chance they get? It’s a matter of respecting someone else, if the kid doesn’t learn what the definition of the word is he/she will use it incorrectly and possibly get himself into trouble. Does it make it right that we should put so much weight on words? No I agree we shouldn’t, we shouldn’t take them so seriously. But then of course if we didn’t then every single word I just typed made no sense and now there is no way for us to communicate because all words have just lost their meaning and now It means The, that means this, Up means down, Right means life, and Hello means fuck you. So for the sake of being able to communicate the general language has to maintain a meaning. Or am I to walk around and just know that every time someone say fuck you or hey bitch that their just giving me a hearty hello? For instants if I havent babbled enough.. To if the am to be cat when you the be it the mat sat to put the fuck shit my mom did the thing it yes my run sit fat. Does that make any sense? .. .. .. But dont get me wrong I do agree people put to much weight as I have said, and words shouldnt be able to dictate peoples emotions. But if that being true, we have offically stripped the statement "I love you" to having no meaning at all. __________________ A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality. A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away. Last edited by ElvenDestiny; 09-20-2005 at 01:18 PM..

09-20-2005, 02:24 PM	#4 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	I essentially agree with both of your posts: only I can control my reaction to any situation, including what someone says to me. At the same time, I think we have to preserve some meaning in our vocabulary, in general, in order for language to be possible - and yes, in general I would agree it's more complicated than simple word choice. The only real reason I can see to justify the retention of taboo language is essentially a point that xepherys] brought up: discipline. I think we use it indoctrinate our children with the notion of discpline, as a mental exercise, so that the fundamentals of that lesson will bleed into discipline in action and so forth. Maybe? __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

09-21-2005, 03:49 AM	#6 (permalink)
ElvenDestiny Tilted Location: Pittsburgh, Pa	XEP well for the most part I do agree with you but the only thing I dont agree with is the definitions behind words such as fuck its always disturbed me that we as logical thinking people permit words to take on their slang meaning. As in the past fuck held one meaning, and now since its been since high school since iv looked it up (that was alot of since's) I see now you are right that have allowed the slang versions of the definitions into the word. The other thing that bothers me such is that, is the open acceptance of ebonics among schools and teachers. __________________ A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality. A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away.

09-21-2005, 08:21 AM	#7 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	Actually, that's not true. Possibly as late as the 17th or early 18th century, it was in common use and meant to penetrate or to strike. When it was original used as a word for fornication, it was vulgar and was "slang" or improper. Again, you can never take language to literally for exactly that reason. Your gripe, as you've mentioned it, is false because you weren't aware of the full history of the word. It's current "real" meaning, as you know it, developed from slang use of the word hundreds of years ago. See also: WikiPedia Last edited by xepherys; 09-21-2005 at 08:24 AM..

09-20-2005, 01:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	But, in fact, the WAY you say "hello" can indeed mean "fuck you". Language is a fickle beast. "I love you" can also mean "I like you" to a puppy-love stricken teenager, it can mean "I love you like a friend", "I love you like family", "I love you like a lover", "I want to get into your pants", "I want you to shut up so I'll say I love you even though I don't". Language only means what we allow it to mean. Trying to interpret not just words, but situations, context, intonation, et cetera can be a huge pain in the ass. It's no wonder wars are fought. Maybe if there was a unified language that meant only what was said (exactly) we WOULD all just get along. I agree that, with children, it's a matter of respect. But I would also expect my kids to be able to call it how they see it. If someone is being prissy, I don't get upset when they say, "Hey! Get over yourself!" The truth is, in fact, the only thing that's the truth. Lastly, what's wrong with saying "fuck" all the time? The current, 21st century meaning behind the word varies. It can mean an act of fornication. It can be an expletive stemmed from a sudden experience of pain or suprise. It can be an agitated word, followed by a stream of other agitated words. If someone says ANYTHING all the time it's annoying. i'd be just as bothered by somone who walked around saying "Spoon!" everytime something made them mad. Did you ever watch the smurfs? Those smurfing smurfs with their smurfy smurfing. That's possibly even MORE annoying than, Those fucking smurfs and their fucking stupid fucking language. Though that's just me...

09-21-2005, 08:57 AM	#8 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	i think it's quite possible that one ought to be free to use a word, but that it still does not remain good practice to do so. if one genuinely does not care anything about what others think, as the OP suggests, then there is no reason to ever speak with another human being. political correctness for it's own sake is an empty gesture. learning to moderate one's own langauge, to be aware of how one's expressions are making others feel and think....that is the opening in to the possiblity for community. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

09-21-2005, 09:17 AM	#9 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Some words are just not polite in mixed company. Sure I can use the word fuck all I want in a business meeting. The fact is the only thing it will hurt is my reputation. It is a cool thing about language, it is very flexible and certain words carry deeper meaning than others. As you touched on above, context is important... hell, context is everything. It is part of the process in which meaning is derived. It is one of the reasons that people are frequently misunderstood when posting on the Internet. Text is devoid of body language, inflection and all the other things that go into context. As for the issue of PC, martinguerre's last sentence lays it out nicely. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-21-2005, 09:30 AM	#10 (permalink)
ElvenDestiny Tilted Location: Pittsburgh, Pa	Xep, I thought I made that clear in my last post but if not I do agree I was mistaken, When I was in high school which was like 8 years ago give or take a few, the only definition you could find for the word "fuck" was referring to an act of sex, so leave it to me to not care then that the word actually had a different meaning years and years ago as I am finding this out now and will be sure to research it more so next time I don’t come off Half cocked. Even though the word had a different meaning in the past and has a million meanings now does not change the fact that the common person finds the word very offensive and an uneducated word (though I guess someone like you who knows so much about the word can turn it into an educated word lol). I agree with you in part we do hold to much over the heads of words so to say, but words are what we use to communicate and you be the one to tell everyone in the world that every word goes and we are to no longer be offended by words. I’m open-minded enough to accept the idea that if someone walks up to me and says, “hey fuck you” that there giving me a nice hearty hello, but is everyone else? (I think this topic was a bad one to get involved with DAMN my curiosity damn it to hell! I only say this cause my understanding of the English language, grammar, and spelling suck really bad if it wasn’t for word id be lost in the world.) __________________ A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality. A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away.

09-21-2005, 09:33 AM	#11 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	Well, as the OP in question, I'd like to make clear that I care what other's think, or I would not participate in the TFP. I do not, however, care much what others think OF me. If someone wants to insult me, for insults sake or for whatever reason, it doesn't bother me. Community does not require much in the way of language. Tribal communities often have extremely simple language and cannot express nearly as much as we can. They communicate only for the sake of working together. This makes PC even more moot, but also limits the possibilities. I think there are things that build community that are FAR more important, and less restrictive than PC language or not saying "fuck". Perhaps pay less attention to trying so hard not to offend people, and at the same time, be less offended by others. It allows for free(er) speech, and allows people to work together without getting all in a tizzy.

09-21-2005, 09:37 AM	#12 (permalink)
ElvenDestiny Tilted Location: Pittsburgh, Pa	You know its all my girlfriends fault, every time I curse she gives me a mean look and it means im not getting any booty So she's brainwashed me to be a clean mouth speaker, but I slip up all the time anyway lol. __________________ A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality. A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away.

09-21-2005, 09:53 AM	#14 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	This thread is making me want to watch South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut /shut your fucking face uncle fucker... __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

09-21-2005, 10:09 AM	#16 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	As an additional note... please read George Orwell's 1984. It gives an interesting example of why a complex language is important. It's double plus good! __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-21-2005, 10:23 AM	#17 (permalink)
ElvenDestiny Tilted Location: Pittsburgh, Pa	All said I do agree with the OP it is sad that words have to be so 'conservative' for a lack of a better description. I'm sure everyone wishes they could say whatever they want and it be accepted and that no one would get offended, Just as im sure everyone wishes they could wear whatever they want and no one get offended. I think Charlatan made a really good point with the suite. As much as anyone hates to wear a monkey suit its still considered to be the dress code for a successful person, does this mean that if you wear blue jeans and a leather jacket everywhere that you will never be successful? No, depends on the situation which further more strengthens the OP's point, So either way you look at everyone in this post (besides probably me lol for my lack of understand the F word originally) is correct because its all circumstantial. If you say it in the right manner at the right time then it will hold a completely different meaning, but that’s just one thing that makes our language so complex. __________________ A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality. A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away.

09-21-2005, 11:06 AM	#22 (permalink)
ElvenDestiny Tilted Location: Pittsburgh, Pa	Is it a good reaction though Redlemon? I will say when I was in high school if some would have cursed they would get a reaction from me and it would have probably been the on they wanted, but today, if someone were to curse to gather some attention, my first response would be "is that really necessary?" As for the smashing finger thing, in my youth I was always more fond of "SON OF A BITCH" but now a days when working on my car and hurting my self I'm more inclined to say "Son of a mother truck chest" DON'T ask its a high school joke that has stuck with me through all these last years. Have any of you seen The Man? As much a dork Eugene Levy plays in there you can’t deny the logic behind what he says to Samuel Jackson. I believe it went something like this. “ In stead of saying Fuck all the time add cry-in out loud to the end. I.E Fuck Cry-in out loud, and eventually before you know it your saying For Crying Out Loud.” Of course that was a butchering of the actual thing said, but if you haven’t seen the movie it conveys a good understanding that there are other ways to express something without using curse words. And in the end you offend someone a lot better without the use of curse words. You say to me “Fuck you, you stupid whore” I can return with, “Please do not confuse me with your mother.” Of course I played off of your profanities, but did not use any myself. __________________ A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality. A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away.

09-21-2005, 11:08 AM	#24 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	You could also just say, "Excuse me". There is a range of ways you can ask people to get out of the way that are appropriate to most of the instances in which you might find someone in your path. If you needed to get to the coffee stir sticks at the coffee shop but someone was blocking your access, using, "Look fuckstick, get the hell outta my way!" would be rude. I am assuming that your intention is not to be rude, rather it is just that you want access to your stir sticks... Calling the guy in your path a "fuckstick" is pretty insulting especially when used in combination with, "get the hell outta my way." Now, if you had said, "excuse me" a couple of times and the fuckstick didn't budge, "Look fuckstick, get the hell outta my way!" is probably more appropriate. As for newspeak. Were we to adapt such a precise and truncated way or communication there would be no room for words like, "fuckstick" or any other expressive explitive you case to choose. Newspeak dumbs down language and renders complex meaning impossible. It also, according the novel, makes language much more succeptable to double think (read: political manipulation of meaning). As for "Far out", again context is everything. If I heard "far out" spoken one way, let's say with a stuffy upper class English accent it signify differently from "far out" as spoken by a California surfer. Further context is added to the usage, "far out" in answer to the question, "How far is Pluto from the Sun?" is different from "far out" in reply to this statement, "Dude! Pluto is millions of miles from the Sun." __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-21-2005, 11:08 AM	#25 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	i'm not quite sure what you're argueing against, xepherys. i don't see any defense of the whole scale ossification of langauge. but i don't think it's ironic that polite means citizen in greek. the discourse, the ways of being in a political affiliation (and by political, i mean that which relates to a polity, a self-defined community) are not entirely open to debate. certainly, the mark of a free society is to extend great leeway, and to expect by and large that citizens/participants value that freedom and will not restrict it in others purely for their own comfort. that said, to expect that others will not value your opinion of them is to restrict the possible meaning of community. perhaps you are okay with a community that simply exists as a sounding box, a place where ideas fly. but i would posit that for a deeper, more affiliative community requires more investment than that. and that investment may cause us to evalute our choices in language. i may not be x, y, or z, but out of respect for those people, i will choose not to use languge that creates miscommunication between us. if you chose to have absolute freedom in your words, go on, do so. but do not be surprised if people choose freely to abandon community with you on the grounds that your communication has suffered. BTW, if you think 1984 supports your point, you miss Orwell's larger thesis on language and communication. Read his classic essay, "Why I Write" for a more straightforward application of the same ideas. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

09-21-2005, 11:41 AM	#26 (permalink)
ElvenDestiny Tilted Location: Pittsburgh, Pa	You know alittle off topic but still on, I must say Xep you choose a good name for the topic, I was just thinking about it. __________________ A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality. A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away.

09-21-2005, 01:46 PM	#27 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	Well, perhaps I got a bit off my initial path. I DO understand, at least with my interpretation, Orwell's overall concepts. First, in response to Charlatan, I'm not sure doublespeak doesn't exist in modern US politics than it ever could've been portrayed in 1984. While we may have a plethora of words at our disposal, we fear using many of them in varying company. Realistically this goes back to some of my initial points, though I suppose I mostly was speaking to offensive language. What is offensive changes from person to person. What do you call an African-American? Personally, I think African American is ridiculous. Negro? Black? Nigger? Colored? You can't say there is never a need for such a distinguishment. What if a crime is perpetrated by an anglo-saxon, and chinaman and a person of African decent. How would you describe them in a way that would offend NOBODY? It's virtually impossible. White? Yellow? Black? Asian? Asian opens up a lot, as does white. Black is semi-straight forward, and you can't say "dark" or "brown" because that could me someone from the Mediterranean(sp?) or of Hispanic origins. So black seems to be the most common. But that offends some people's sensibilities. Back to point (sorry, it's easy for me to derail, especially at work), while common speech can still offend even when intended not to, politicians in the US use this against us, along with other linguistical anomolies to make statements that are either false or partial-truths and preach them as fact. Part of this is how language is being scuplted with political correctness, and part of this is the gross apathy of the American people. At any rate, doublespeak has come to life without the need for Newspeak. Those that feel the need and have the ability are slowly shaping the use of English in this country, and it doesn't seem like it will stop anytime soon.

09-21-2005, 10:14 PM	#29 (permalink)
analog Banned	Language serves as a medium for communication. By nature, it expands to accomodate new words, naturally shifting the vernacular, and sloughs off some words into obsolescence, all without our interference. Words carry meaning because we give them meaning. Words can harm because we "allow" them to, but the real reason words can harm is because we give them meaning, and honor their meaning implicitly. Cuss words are no more a party to this than any other word. Slang is the best example of what I mean, as one day a perfectly normal word can take on a different, often negative, meaning. Take pussy, for example. Starts as a cat's name, is referenced as a nickname for a vagina, and now it's a slang term for a wimp, a wuss, someone weak. Pussy is mean because we give it that value, and over a period of time and use, that value is now intrinsic to it, and we automatically assign that value to it on a subconscious level when we hear it. Take our monetary system for another example. Money is worthless. Without the government that prints it, it's paper with a dead president on it. It has value because we've given it value. We now recognize each bill and their relative assigned value to purchase goods and services. The concept of assigning value is the same. The point is, if you choose to personally unassign the value of a word for yourself, that's all well and good for you- but the common meaning will persist, no matter what, until its time has come to be replaced or kicked out. (side note: I just read 1984 and I'm pretty much positive the whole point of newspeak was orwell showing the government trying that much harder to remove individuality and personality from everything, including everyday speech. While good, plusgood, and doubleplusgood may be ok for good, great, and awesome, that is hardly an example of the intent of the language. The language was specifically created and continually tweaked to remove redundancies from the language. This could only serve to hinder communication, which was another component of the point of the Newspeak... just another form of control through denial of personality..

09-22-2005, 05:42 AM	#30 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Doublethink and doublespeak do not require newspeak to exist. All that is required is a good PR firm and/or marketing... Language is easily manipulated. It is both its greatest weakness and its greatest strength. I will refer you to this thread -- Mass Media Mind Control -- for a lengthier discussion on this... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-22-2005, 07:36 AM	#32 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	How apropos... interesting article. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-22-2005, 07:42 AM	#33 (permalink)
d*d Addict	What your talking about here is deconstructionism "<em>deconstructionism is a challenge to the attempt to establish any ultimate or secure meaning in a text. Basing itself in language analysis, it seeks to "deconstruct" the ideological biases (gender, racial, economic, political, cultural) and traditional assumptions that infect all histories, as well as philosophical and religious "truths." </em>" It is also refers to Saussre (check spelling) and semantics, there are descriptive words such as tree and sky which can be agreed upon by pointing to the object in the real world, you can't point at excellent since it is an abstract notion and is purely subjective- language is fluid and changes constantly, you would have a hard time understanding english (which is in itself a mix of french, scandinavian and latin with a germanic root) from previous centuries, the words we use are only a fraction of the communication process (thats why we have to employ these damn emoticons to add meaning to our posts. It would be impossible to have a fixed language with no room for interpretation, although this would make lawyers obsolete, because it would mean that the association we have with a word would need to be the same for each person.

09-22-2005, 07:52 AM	#34 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I was trying to avoid getting into Saussure, Derrida, et al. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-22-2005, 08:11 AM	#37 (permalink)
ElvenDestiny Tilted Location: Pittsburgh, Pa	BigBen if anything I can second Xep's opinion on that matter, I am highly respected where I work by the agents and fellow employees for my knowledge of computers/networks/ and call centers, I however do not care, In other places such as in a computer stores my knowledge of computers is dismissed because every computer geek thinks they know it all. Secondly my grandmother thinks im a Satan worshiping homosexual. Don’t ask me why she's just crazy like that. And many other people have had good and bad opinions about me right and left. The way I look at it is this, two sayings that I live by when dealing with what others think. 1) "If I was meant to be otherwise, I would have been created otherwise" (for the reason of me not being Christian I removed the mention of god from that saying and im not sure who said it.) And the other one is, 2) "I was not put on this earth to meet you expectations, As you were not put on this earth to meet mine” Bruce Lee So its almost as simple as, if you like me great, if you don’t oh well your lose, either way lets get on with life. I can care less if someone likes me or not as long as they respect me, but as a whole I care not what people think about me. __________________ A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality. A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away.

09-22-2005, 08:38 PM	#39 (permalink)
ElvenDestiny Tilted Location: Pittsburgh, Pa	I will agree he does, you should read some of his others, they bring some really good insite to alot of things __________________ A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality. A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away.

09-23-2005, 07:28 AM	#40 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	OK, I've restrained myself long enough. What this thread needs is more pirates. Specifically, it needs: Captain Feathersword, the Friendly Pirate! / I hate the Wiggles. __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.