Most influential man ever? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

chavos · 06-10-2003, 10:01 AM

who ever invented the plow. Agricultural surplus was probably more catalytic to the formation of civilization than another single thing.

Mael · 06-10-2003, 03:13 PM

when it comes down to numbers straight up, i would have to abraham as well. even if he wasn't a "real" person, there at some point was a person who started the monotheistic movement.

debaser · 06-10-2003, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mael
when it comes down to numbers straight up, i would have to abraham as well. even if he wasn't a "real" person, there at some point was a person who started the monotheistic movement.

Technically the first exculsively monotheistic religion was started my Moses, not Abraham...

madsenj37 · 06-10-2003, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by debaser
Technically the first exculsively monotheistic religion was started my Moses, not Abraham...

If you are saying Judaism was the first monthestic religion, you are wrong. Judaism was the first popular monotheistic religion.

roothorick · 06-10-2003, 11:50 PM

ME! Kthx

Power trips rock, man.

Ok, seriously? Ugh, depends on how you think the world came into existence, does God exist, a million and one variables. Filling in these variables with my personal beliefs, ugh, still a tough call if I have to choose a human being.

Ok, here's a killer: how do you define human being? If you go with exclusively homo sapiens, I don't think you can include most founding religious figures. That automatically makes Gutenberg the most influential IMO. How about if you go with the start of the Homo genus? Wow, that goes back a ways... my vote goes out to the evolutionary Adam and Eve, if there is one. Otherwise... ugh, you know how when you get too philosophical there's that nagging voice in the back of your head that keeps screaming "DOESITFUCKINGMATTERYOUFUCKINGIDIOT?"? Well, that's what's going on for me right now. gnight

mystmarimatt · 06-11-2003, 12:17 AM

Quote:

the individual who first harnessed fire. Deny that one.

Haha. good call, Buffto.
On a purely philosophical level, however, i have to agree with those who say Abraham. If someone can be the spawn of belief systems that, every day contribute to the deaths of lots folks all around the world (and particularly in the middle east), and on certain days bring millions of them together in joyous reverence, I'd say that they're fairly influential. it may seem a rudimentary connection, being as other people helped out, but not at the same time, but it's there nonetheless. to those who would argue Buddha and prophets of other eastern faiths, from my standpoint, the fact that there's more commotion from abraham's folks than their's, in my eyes makes it more influential.

debaser · 06-11-2003, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by madsenj37
If you are saying Judaism was the first monthestic religion, you are wrong. Judaism was the first popular monotheistic religion.

No, Judaism was the first exclusively monotheistic religion, but only after the exodus from Egypt. Prior to that event all religions were henotheistic.

madsenj37 · 06-11-2003, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by debaser
No, Judaism was the first exclusively monotheistic religion, but only after the exodus from Egypt. Prior to that event all religions were henotheistic.

Zoroastrianism was the first exclusive monotheistic religion. Dating anywhere from 1500 BC- 600 BC, it is older than Judaism.

debaser · 06-11-2003, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by madsenj37
Zoroastrianism was the first exclusive monotheistic religion. Dating anywhere from 1500 BC- 600 BC, it is older than Judaism.

Well, Moses supposedly recieved the word of God around the year 1200 BC, so that may make it older than Judaism. Certainly the two religions have a lot in common, but early Zoroastrianism has the same henotheistic leanings as early Judaism.

madsenj37 · 06-12-2003, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by debaser
Well, Moses supposedly recieved the word of God around the year 1200 BC, so that may make it older than Judaism. Certainly the two religions have a lot in common, but early Zoroastrianism has the same henotheistic leanings as early Judaism.

Is this based on the Torah ( I believe that is what Jews refer to the first part of what has become the christian bible ) or based on current dating techniques? ... because Zoroaster has been dated back as far as 1500 by our current dating techniques.

debaser · 06-12-2003, 08:29 AM

1200 is an approximation based on Egyptian history and archaological finds in the Sinai and Southern Israel/Palestine.
It is generally accepted as the best guess as to when the Exodus occured.

Zoroaster is actually dated between 1500 BCE and 600 BCE, but most linguists agreee that his dates are between 1200 and 1000 BCE based on the style of his writing.

Xeen · 06-12-2003, 09:39 AM

Hmmm.. I'd love to say Democratese given that he came up with the atomic theory of matter about 2400 years before anyone finally got around to taking him seriously but I guess the whole taking him seriously thing kinda cramps that a little...

Sparhawk · 06-12-2003, 10:35 AM

Charles Darwin.

charlesesl · 06-12-2003, 07:50 PM

Gangus Khan
The mongolian leader who conquered the most last mass ever possible by man. He brought new religion, and culture to whereever he conquered
great man

charlesesl · 06-12-2003, 07:50 PM

Gangus Khan
The mongolian leader who conquered the most last mass ever possible by man. He brought new religion, and culture to whereever he conquered
great man

rat · 06-14-2003, 10:20 PM

can't vouch for all time. in the last 1000 years, Gutenberg. printing press with movable type was the key to providing the mass movement of thought and ideas for hundreds of years prior to electricity and computers.

saladami82 · 06-15-2003, 01:03 PM

The first farmer!

At some point, some hunter-gatherers were hunter-gathering and one of them said "you know maybe we should just live in the same place and grow shit for a while instead of stalking mammoths and what-not." And everyone laughed at him.

-saladami

kms1234 · 06-15-2003, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by canuckelhead
Adolf Hitler, although not a good influence he had a major influence on every person that has lived since the mid 1900's.

He changed the way an entire nation thought and had altered the mindset of the world forever. He could convert people on will and turned millions of people into mindless slaves.

I have to agree with this one. To this day, when people want to demonize a world leader they use Hitler as the yardstick. Negative influence is still influence and usually sticks in people's minds more that positive.

illuminati · 06-15-2003, 05:25 PM

Abraham, Jesus, Johannes Gutenberg.

j_o_brown · 06-16-2003, 01:11 PM

Jesus... Due to the of phenomenon of misinformation known as Christianity.

MikeyChalupa · 06-23-2003, 09:08 AM

The group of men that, over time, penned what has evolved into the Bible. They are responsible for more laws, customs, culture, thought, art, acts of kindness, fear, guilt, war, hatred, genocide, and murder in the name of their creation (the major monotheistic religions) than any other people in human history. Unless you're a member of a tribe somewhere in a remote part of the world, their creation has touched your life in SOME way. And even those tribesmen have probably got a missionary living with them, or have been contacted by one, in an attempt to get them to convert from their godless ways.

-Mikey

gibber71 · 06-23-2003, 07:31 PM

Henry Ford. Where would we be without the assembly line.

Bobaphat · 06-23-2003, 10:47 PM

Bill Gates. Revolutionized the world more in 15 years than anyone in history has come close to doing.

stilted · 06-24-2003, 10:00 AM

can't just name one person as the most influential. so i give you this......
philosophical.....sun tsu
technological...... prometheus (or whom ever harnessed fire)
and regarding keeping the animal in man......... hugh heffner

ganon · 06-26-2003, 12:56 PM

Alright, here is my humble answer. The man that has most influenced all of humanity is Adam. It was by him that sin entered the world, and every human ever born has been affected by that. Jesus hasn't reached everybody yet. And the oldest monotheistic religion is Judaism, based on the biblical account of Melchizedek. genesis 14 reads "And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High. He blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." Melchizedek, according to Paul, was a priest of the most high God. Melchizedek is often considered to be an pre incarnate epiphany of Jesus, meaning that the king of salem and high priest of God could have been in that place for any length of time. He was there before abraham, and worshiped God before abraham.

j8ear · 06-26-2003, 01:59 PM

As I was scrolling down, I was thinking of Hitler also. No single man has so shaped how we reign in leaders, and interact amongst each other. His vision of people proved influential for almost every aspect of our modern culture. In that we all now knew what NEVER to do or let happen again. Man's inhumanity to man has never been so personified, and chances are slim that humanity, from the lessons learned of Hitler, will ever allow such a monster to wield so much power.

Gutenburg, is definatley on the list. As are the Wright Brothers, and who ever invented the internal combustion engine. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha too. Ghandi and Mother Theresa certainly fit the bill.

These two cats are pretty importatant too:

Lucy, 3.5 million years old, and the recent discovery Ramides, 4.4 million years old hominid fossil, are discovered in Haddar, along the Awash River. They completed the missing link between Apes and men.

I think though that King John at Runnymede on June 15, 1215 takes the cake. This is when the subjects of King John were placed under the rules of liberty, and limits of the state outlined in the Magna Carta.

raeanna74 · 06-27-2003, 08:01 AM

Well if you believe the Bible I would say possibly Noah in that he is still the father of the human race in that after the universal flood all human kind came from his children. Second to that I would say Jesus. The most influential man TODAY? I would say Sadam Hussein. The US uses him as the excuse for being in Iraq and there has been international debate over whether we should be there or not. Everyone seems to have taken a side.

TaiModan · 06-27-2003, 01:20 PM

ok everyone, you ALL know who Murphy is. ^_^ definitely most influential person. I cant remember that far back, but im sure there was no mention of them having to be proven as existant, but as far as influence, he's got all the cards.

CSflim · 06-29-2003, 03:07 PM

I would say Newton.

But them, I'm interested in science. What would I know?

madsenj37 · 06-30-2003, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bobaphat
Bill Gates. Revolutionized the world more in 15 years than anyone in history has come close to doing.

Im not trying to steal Bills thunder as he is very important, but he didnt revolutionize as much as people give him credit for... he did however help evolutionize the world into what it has become.

sportsrule101 · 07-01-2003, 07:56 AM

First adam and eve weren't kicked out because they had sex, they were tricked into eating something they weren't supposed to. Second i think jesus and paul were most infuential. If one thinks it is buddah or Gandhi, explain how they have had more influence over more men then Jesus

papermachesatan · 07-01-2003, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BBtB
Okay here is something I have been pondering for awhile. Who do you think the most influential man ever was? I personally think it is Abraham. I mean he started a religion that became one of the first great religons, Judaism, which over the roughly 4000 to 5000 (ish.. If someone knows a more exact time frame please do add) year time period it has been around has influenced billions of people both directly through the relgion and through its two daughter relgions of Christanity and Islam. Plus the fact his family line has become one of our main stay "races" , jews. If anyone wants to disagree feel free to please be prepared to give an answer to who you think more rightly deserves this place.

I'm largely inclined to agree.

Ace_of_Lobster · 07-01-2003, 02:22 PM

Confucious

remember the Chinese? There are alot of them.

mpedrummer2 · 07-01-2003, 10:18 PM

Egyptian Pharoah Amenhotep IV is considered the first to have monotheistic tendncies on a wide scale. His monotheistic religion was rejected by his successor, Pharaoh Tutankhamen, though small groups of Aten (sun god) followers continued. Some believe that Moses was influenced by Aten's priests.

Amenhotep IV ruled from 1352-1336 B.C., which is a good 150 years before Moses is supposed to have been around.

MPEDrummer

madsenj37 · 07-02-2003, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mpedrummer2
Egyptian Pharoah Amenhotep IV is considered the first to have monotheistic tendncies on a wide scale. His monotheistic religion was rejected by his successor, Pharaoh Tutankhamen, though small groups of Aten (sun god) followers continued. Some believe that Moses was influenced by Aten's priests.

Amenhotep IV ruled from 1352-1336 B.C., which is a good 150 years before Moses is supposed to have been around.

MPEDrummer

Thats some good research.

bermuDa · 07-02-2003, 01:36 AM

who's to say there's a single most influencial person? Remove just about any person from the gene pool and you've altered the future. History is a group effort, we're all the most influencial people in the world.

XenuHubbard · 07-02-2003, 02:23 AM

Hitler hasn't impacted the whole world as we'd like to think.
I teach Business English in Taiwan, and yesterday I took 15 minutes to explain who Hitler was and why swastikas are considered bad in the West. The Chinese remember Japan instead. The atrocities committed by Hitler aren't really important to people in Asia. They've had their own regional share of grief.

uncle phil · 07-02-2003, 12:31 PM

i have to agree with sparhawk on darwin...it would seem to me to be an awfully large assumption playing the religeous angle...

debaser · 07-02-2003, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mpedrummer2
Egyptian Pharoah Amenhotep IV is considered the first to have monotheistic tendncies on a wide scale. His monotheistic religion was rejected by his successor, Pharaoh Tutankhamen, though small groups of Aten (sun god) followers continued. Some believe that Moses was influenced by Aten's priests.

Amenhotep IV ruled from 1352-1336 B.C., which is a good 150 years before Moses is supposed to have been around.

MPEDrummer

It wasn't exclusive monotheism, though, more like henotheism. The first truely monotheistic religion (by modern standards) was Judaism (though someone made a pretty good argument for Zoroastrianism a month or so ago...).

BonesCPA · 07-09-2003, 07:47 AM

The first person to figure out the fermentation process. Think about it, alcohol has become a fixture in all societies, and not just what is consumed. Alcohol is/was used for sterilization in medicine.

(And I wasn't even going to mention that it has helped guys get laid from many centuries.)

06-10-2003, 11:50 PM	#45 (permalink)
roothorick Upright Location: Wisconsin, US	ME! Kthx Power trips rock, man. Ok, seriously? Ugh, depends on how you think the world came into existence, does God exist, a million and one variables. Filling in these variables with my personal beliefs, ugh, still a tough call if I have to choose a human being. Ok, here's a killer: how do you define human being? If you go with exclusively homo sapiens, I don't think you can include most founding religious figures. That automatically makes Gutenberg the most influential IMO. How about if you go with the start of the Homo genus? Wow, that goes back a ways... my vote goes out to the evolutionary Adam and Eve, if there is one. Otherwise... ugh, you know how when you get too philosophical there's that nagging voice in the back of your head that keeps screaming "DOESITFUCKINGMATTERYOUFUCKINGIDIOT?"? Well, that's what's going on for me right now. gnight __________________ You shall not listen to me, and you shall not ignore any nonsense before me, nor make any idols representing my nonsense, for I AM THE NONSENSE, and there is no other nonsense besides me.

06-12-2003, 08:29 AM	#51 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	1200 is an approximation based on Egyptian history and archaological finds in the Sinai and Southern Israel/Palestine. It is generally accepted as the best guess as to when the Exodus occured. Zoroaster is actually dated between 1500 BCE and 600 BCE, but most linguists agreee that his dates are between 1200 and 1000 BCE based on the style of his writing. __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

06-12-2003, 09:39 AM	#52 (permalink)
Xeen Psycho Location: UK	Hmmm.. I'd love to say Democratese given that he came up with the atomic theory of matter about 2400 years before anyone finally got around to taking him seriously but I guess the whole taking him seriously thing kinda cramps that a little... __________________ ~~ Xeen ~~ This court rules that religion must stay 500 yards away from science at all times.

06-12-2003, 10:35 AM	#53 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	Charles Darwin. __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

06-12-2003, 07:50 PM	#54 (permalink)
charlesesl Psycho	Gangus Khan The mongolian leader who conquered the most last mass ever possible by man. He brought new religion, and culture to whereever he conquered great man __________________ It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. Dr. Viktor E. Frankl

06-10-2003, 10:01 AM	#41 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	who ever invented the plow. Agricultural surplus was probably more catalytic to the formation of civilization than another single thing.

06-10-2003, 03:13 PM	#42 (permalink)
Mael Banned Location: The Hell I Created.	when it comes down to numbers straight up, i would have to abraham as well. even if he wasn't a "real" person, there at some point was a person who started the monotheistic movement.

06-12-2003, 07:50 PM	#55 (permalink)
charlesesl Psycho	Gangus Khan The mongolian leader who conquered the most last mass ever possible by man. He brought new religion, and culture to whereever he conquered great man __________________ It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. Dr. Viktor E. Frankl

06-15-2003, 01:03 PM	#57 (permalink)
saladami82 Upright Location: NJ	The first farmer! At some point, some hunter-gatherers were hunter-gathering and one of them said "you know maybe we should just live in the same place and grow shit for a while instead of stalking mammoths and what-not." And everyone laughed at him. -saladami

06-15-2003, 05:25 PM	#59 (permalink)
illuminati Upright	Abraham, Jesus, Johannes Gutenberg.

06-16-2003, 01:11 PM	#60 (permalink)
j_o_brown Upright Location: Colorado, U.S.A. (mile high)	Jesus... Due to the of phenomenon of misinformation known as Christianity. __________________ JB May the Force be with you...

06-23-2003, 09:08 AM	#61 (permalink)
MikeyChalupa Squid Location: USS George Washington	The group of men that, over time, penned what has evolved into the Bible. They are responsible for more laws, customs, culture, thought, art, acts of kindness, fear, guilt, war, hatred, genocide, and murder in the name of their creation (the major monotheistic religions) than any other people in human history. Unless you're a member of a tribe somewhere in a remote part of the world, their creation has touched your life in SOME way. And even those tribesmen have probably got a missionary living with them, or have been contacted by one, in an attempt to get them to convert from their godless ways. -Mikey

06-23-2003, 07:31 PM	#62 (permalink)
gibber71 Loser	Henry Ford. Where would we be without the assembly line.

06-23-2003, 10:47 PM	#63 (permalink)
Bobaphat whoopity doo Location: Seattle	Bill Gates. Revolutionized the world more in 15 years than anyone in history has come close to doing. __________________ --size matters not-- yoda

06-24-2003, 10:00 AM	#64 (permalink)
stilted Upright	can't just name one person as the most influential. so i give you this...... philosophical.....sun tsu technological...... prometheus (or whom ever harnessed fire) and regarding keeping the animal in man......... hugh heffner

06-26-2003, 12:56 PM	#65 (permalink)
ganon Insane Location: in my head	Alright, here is my humble answer. The man that has most influenced all of humanity is Adam. It was by him that sin entered the world, and every human ever born has been affected by that. Jesus hasn't reached everybody yet. And the oldest monotheistic religion is Judaism, based on the biblical account of Melchizedek. genesis 14 reads "And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High. He blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." Melchizedek, according to Paul, was a priest of the most high God. Melchizedek is often considered to be an pre incarnate epiphany of Jesus, meaning that the king of salem and high priest of God could have been in that place for any length of time. He was there before abraham, and worshiped God before abraham. __________________ "My give up, my give up." - Jar Jar Binks Last edited by ganon; 06-26-2003 at 12:59 PM..

06-26-2003, 01:59 PM	#66 (permalink)
j8ear Gentlemen Farmer Location: Middle of nowhere, Jersey	As I was scrolling down, I was thinking of Hitler also. No single man has so shaped how we reign in leaders, and interact amongst each other. His vision of people proved influential for almost every aspect of our modern culture. In that we all now knew what NEVER to do or let happen again. Man's inhumanity to man has never been so personified, and chances are slim that humanity, from the lessons learned of Hitler, will ever allow such a monster to wield so much power. Gutenburg, is definatley on the list. As are the Wright Brothers, and who ever invented the internal combustion engine. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha too. Ghandi and Mother Theresa certainly fit the bill. These two cats are pretty importatant too: Lucy, 3.5 million years old, and the recent discovery Ramides, 4.4 million years old hominid fossil, are discovered in Haddar, along the Awash River. They completed the missing link between Apes and men. I think though that King John at Runnymede on June 15, 1215 takes the cake. This is when the subjects of King John were placed under the rules of liberty, and limits of the state outlined in the Magna Carta. __________________ It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

06-27-2003, 08:01 AM	#67 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	Well if you believe the Bible I would say possibly Noah in that he is still the father of the human race in that after the universal flood all human kind came from his children. Second to that I would say Jesus. The most influential man TODAY? I would say Sadam Hussein. The US uses him as the excuse for being in Iraq and there has been international debate over whether we should be there or not. Everyone seems to have taken a side. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

06-27-2003, 01:20 PM	#68 (permalink)
TaiModan Banned Location: Nanaimo BC Canada	ok everyone, you ALL know who Murphy is. ^_^ definitely most influential person. I cant remember that far back, but im sure there was no mention of them having to be proven as existant, but as far as influence, he's got all the cards.

06-29-2003, 03:07 PM	#69 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	I would say Newton. But them, I'm interested in science. What would I know? __________________

07-01-2003, 07:56 AM	#71 (permalink)
sportsrule101 Insane	First adam and eve weren't kicked out because they had sex, they were tricked into eating something they weren't supposed to. Second i think jesus and paul were most infuential. If one thinks it is buddah or Gandhi, explain how they have had more influence over more men then Jesus __________________ winning isn't everything but losing isn't anything

07-01-2003, 02:22 PM	#73 (permalink)
Ace_of_Lobster Crazy	Confucious remember the Chinese? There are alot of them. __________________ "Hundreds of men must have told you how beautiful you are. Would you displease the gods to hear it once more? I wouldn't. Im young and I hope to see a god before I die." -Patera Silk

07-01-2003, 10:18 PM	#74 (permalink)
mpedrummer2 Insane	Egyptian Pharoah Amenhotep IV is considered the first to have monotheistic tendncies on a wide scale. His monotheistic religion was rejected by his successor, Pharaoh Tutankhamen, though small groups of Aten (sun god) followers continued. Some believe that Moses was influenced by Aten's priests. Amenhotep IV ruled from 1352-1336 B.C., which is a good 150 years before Moses is supposed to have been around. MPEDrummer __________________ My sig can beat up your honor student.

07-02-2003, 01:36 AM	#76 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	who's to say there's a single most influencial person? Remove just about any person from the gene pool and you've altered the future. History is a group effort, we're all the most influencial people in the world. __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

07-02-2003, 02:23 AM	#77 (permalink)
XenuHubbard Cute and Cuddly Location: Teegeeack.	Hitler hasn't impacted the whole world as we'd like to think. I teach Business English in Taiwan, and yesterday I took 15 minutes to explain who Hitler was and why swastikas are considered bad in the West. The Chinese remember Japan instead. The atrocities committed by Hitler aren't really important to people in Asia. They've had their own regional share of grief. __________________ The above was written by a true prophet. Trust me. "What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

07-02-2003, 12:31 PM	#78 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	i have to agree with sparhawk on darwin...it would seem to me to be an awfully large assumption playing the religeous angle... __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

07-09-2003, 07:47 AM	#80 (permalink)
BonesCPA No. It's not done yet. Location: sorta kinda phila	The first person to figure out the fermentation process. Think about it, alcohol has become a fixture in all societies, and not just what is consumed. Alcohol is/was used for sterilization in medicine. (And I wasn't even going to mention that it has helped guys get laid from many centuries.) __________________ Back into hibernation.