Zegel

Is not fun!

My daughter recently turned 5, and we've been noticing a theme in her behavior that's been around for a while, but it's getting much worse: she argues a lot. The subject doesnt really matter, whether it's getting dressed, eating, wanting something, whatever. From small things like 'I want to use a different towel tonight' to big things like 'I dont want to go to school today!'. I think the part that worries me the most is that it seems like she's falling into a habit of disagreeing with us just to disagree, not because she wants something other than what we're offering.

It started around the time that she turned four, when she began negotiating for things. The classic 'I want to do this for 5 more minutes' or 'I want to read 5 books instead of 3 tonight'. She was pretty good at it, and looking back we probably caved in to her small demands too much. It was always easier to say 'Sure, why not. You can play for one more minute', rather than deal with a potential problem. Now that's coming back to bite us in the ass. We've dealt with it by being much more matter of fact about things, stating what's going to happen and sticking to it rather than letting her negotiate. But we've been doing that for a while now, and it's like it still hasnt set in. She still has a serious fit when she doesnt get her way, and still tries to negotiate and argue her way with just about everything.

Any one out there that's dealt with a similar situation? Or anyone that has any ideas?

gman41364

We've had the same thing going on with our 7 year old. He always want to have the last word. We've been doing a reward system thing where he has the possibility of collecting two chips a day. If he doesn't comply with instructions, (come to dinner, pick up toys, etc.) after the 2nd or 3rd request he loses a chip. when he accrues 15 chips he's rewarded with something fun, ice cream cone, bowling, whatever. It has had some good results. My 10 year old who is slightly retarded and had ADD is a different story. He doesn't care if he loses rewards. Working on that.

Bill O'Rights

Yes, I have dealt with a similar situation. Mine gets to move out in...*counts fingers*...5 months. She'll be turning 18 and going off to college.

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sillygirl

Try the reward system.

Also, when she throws a fit, how do you react?

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Zegel

We do have a reward system in place, which sometimes works and othertimes results in problems. At bed time we all sit down together talk for a bit. If she's had a 'good day' then she get's a star on the calendar. If she's had an exceptional day then she gets a star with a happy face. Getting a number of stars in a row equals something special, usually of her choice.

Some days it works great, and she'll try very hard to be good and get a star. Other times she'll have a bad day not get a star, which causes her to be very upset, but we just explain why try to encourage her to not have the same problem tomorrow.

As far as the fits go, we usually cut them off by letting her know that there wont be any further discussion about the matter, which causes her to get pouty for a while. If that doesnt work then she'll usually keep getting more and more upset until she ends up on a time out, which can last for quite a while because a time out is just about the worst thing imaginable in her mind and that makes her even more upset. It can be rough, but we've made a point of not giving in, which I think is the right thing to do. Or maybe not, considering that the issue keeps coming up.

She's actually fairly good at accepting disipline, it's just that nothing seems to take hold for longer than a couple hours. We'll put her on a time out for a problem one day, and she'll appologize and say that she'll try not to do it again. She'll be back to being an angel, and before long it will be like it never happened. Then it happens again. We're sticking with it, but the lack of long term results is frustrating.

clavus

I hate to tell you this, but it might take a couple of months. Stick to your guns. You are doing the right thing.

On the flip side, be consistant about everything. Little stuff matters to a little kid. Example -

You say "tomorrow afternoon we are going to the park." Tomorrow afternoon rolls around and its raining.

DON'T say "we aren't going to the park." You are suddenly inconsistent and you are letting your kid down.

DO say, 'We can go to the park like I promised, but its rainy and cold. Do you still want to go?"
If they want to go splash in the mud, and get cold and wet, so be it.

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sillygirl

Also make very sure that you constantly praise and notice the good things. Try and 'catch' her being good, and tell her it makes you proud to see her making such good choices, etc etc.

This works with even the most problematic children, so I'm sure it'll work with her... but changing behaviors, etc, won't work overnight.

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Anyone can be passionate, but it takes real lovers to be silly-Rose Franken
....absence makes me miss him more...

raeanna74

Mine does the same too. She is 4 1/2. One thing that helps pre-empt (sp?) the situation is I plan ahead for her desire for choice. I think a big part of it is that she's testing to see how much freedom of choice she has. If I tell her it's "time to go in 5 min" or "soon" then she has warning. She knows (most of the time) that she can go down the slide for that whole 5 mins or swing - it's her choice. When I want her to get dressed I often will pick out a few acceptable items and let her choose between them. It gives her a chance to choose. I also taught her Eny, Meny, Miny, Moe to help her choose between more than one thing that she wants. She loves doing the game and I can tell she does it even when she already knows what she DOES want. As for certain things like bedtime when it's not got a lot of option I give her a choice in another area. I do have an alarm clock in her room and one time when she argued with me about when to go to bed I told her she could choose when to get up but when to go to bed. I offered to set the alarm for her and told her what times she could choose. She loved that idea. Since she got that choice she hasn't asked me to set it anymore and she usually cooperates with bedtime.

Our battle is at dinner time but that is improving. Made a firm stand just once and it will start to get easier. It may amaze you. You might feel like a stubborn meanie at the time but the payoff is well worth the effort.

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My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Lebell

My wife, sexymama, is a teacher and has taught parenting classes and does NOT have this problem.

I will get her to comment, but I know for a fact that it's the "giving in" that has caused you trouble.

Children will push if they know you will cave.

It's really as simple as that.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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sexymama

You've been given very good advice above. It will take time for things to change in your household because she is going to remember the "old way" and work to gain the control back. Just keep reminding yourself, you are the adult and she is the child. Children have parents for a reason -- they aren't ready to face the world on their own and they need your guidance.

To avoid arguing I have several suggestions:

1. As reanna said, give her choices whenever possible. Make them both choices you can live with and follow through. She needs a sense of personal power and control.

2. Use "grandma's rule." When you finish picking up your toys, then we can watch your movie. Note -- it is not if you finish picking up your toys, because that implies choice and she doesn't have a choice but to do her chore.

3. Acknowledge her feelings, but don't give in. "I understand not wanting to go to school. There are days when I don't feel like working. But we all have our jobs and now it's time to go." Then go -- even if it means phsyically lifting her up and bringing her.

4. If you are going to do a reward chart, she is only five so rewards must be frequent. In other words, something like after five stars we'll go to DQ. Do not make her earn five stars in a row because that means she has to start over whenever she has a bad day and that may feel defeating. Whereas, if she can earn the fifth star tomorrow and still get icecream, there is more motivation to behave the next day. After she has been rewarded several times, increase the number of stars needed and possibly make the reward bigger. (Note, I'm not huge on rewarding children for what they should do. My kids only earn stars for extra things -- beyond what is expected; but that may need to be down the road for you.)

5. MAYBE MOST IMPORTANT you cannot control another human being. You can only control yourself. Instead of telling her what to do, tell her what you are going to do. "I will listen when you use a nice tone of voice." "The car is leaving in 5 minutes." "I am turning off the television until you can cooperate." "Frankly, I'm not enjoying being with you right now, so I'm going upstairs to play on the computer." (The last one may seem harsh, but reality is no one likes to be around a bratty person. Isn't it better she learn it now then as an adult?)

6. Frequently children misbehave because they are craving their parents' attention. It may be that you need to give her more positive attention. Play games with her, read with her, go outside and walk, talk, etc. as often as possible. Just make sure you are giving her attention (not praise, as research shows that kids hate fake praise and would much rather have some of your real time) not only when she is arguing, but at other times as well.

7. Be consistent, even when it is easier to give in. It pays off!

Good luck and if you want more ideas, I highly recommend Love and Logic Parenting classes and/or tapes and videos which can be purchased on their website. (No, I am not a trainer and reap nothing from telling you this.)

__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

EULA

Don't be surprised if these 'battles' don't end. See what happens when you stop controlling minute aspects of her life. If she goes to bed late or eats too many cookies, it's not going to do her any harm, certainly if it's only for a few days. She wants independence, so give it to her.

I don't have children so take this as you will, but I think you'll find parenting a lot less frustrating if you let her do whatever she wants. Permissiveness is often conflated with negligence, which I don't think is wise. People will say that you're spoiling her, but spoiled children are children who are given things instead of love.

If you do this for a week, the first few days she'll make herself sick eating cookies and will go to bed late just because she can, but by the 4th day she'll become more "sensible".

Lebell

OMG.

Eula,

Please don't take this personally, but that is the worst parenting advice I have ever seen.

Studies and child psychologists all agree that children want boundries. It is one way that they know their parents care about them.

Your path simply teaches her that she can do whatever she wants...which I think EVERYONE would agree is a bad thing to carry into adulthood. And make no mistake, this is where you start instilling those adult values.

You do NOT have to give in to show a child that you love them...indeed, quite the opposite. You SHOULD NOT GIVE IN when you KNOW you are doing the right thing (this is not to say that you should never give in...sometimes it is important to pick your battles).

Edit to add:

Zigel,

One of the reasons that I, a 39 year old childless man (with a rather short fuse regarding bratty children) was willing to marry sexymama (who at the time had 8 and 10 year old girls and an 18 year old boy) was because of how damn well her children behaved. Oh sure, they do the normal kid things and get into minor trouble, but on the whole, they are polite and accept responsibility for their actions.

Her two 22 year old step sons (from her previous marriage) are well adjusted young men (even as one of them had a really rough adolescence).

Had her children acted like you describe your 5 year old acts, I would have run...fast.

So indeed, take all of the advice presented above as you will.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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waltert

well, im a relatively young guy with lots of much younger half/step siblings. they're so much smaller that its really more like a parent child relationship.

anyway, what works for me when the kids dont obey is to stop them from moving around, make them face me and look me in the eye, and then apply a slight pressure to the shoulder muscle (enough to let them know that I'm not joking, but not enough to hurt them) and then tell them what they need to do, perhaps taking them to the place that they need to do it.

their father will tell them to do something, and they usually wont obey until he starts screaming at them.

I never raise my voice, I tell them once and if they dont obey, I employ the aforementioned method. it seems very effective on these particular children.

after reading the other replies, it may seem as though what I'm saying is irrelevant, but the general idea is the same. be firm and dont let your kids roll you over. always follow up with what you say you're going to do.

EULA

That is garbage in two respects: I seriously doubt all psychologists will agree on anything, certainly all agreeing on your statement 2) My parenting advice does have boundaries: respect and dignity.

You don't need complex systems of rules, punishments, and rewards to show your children that you care. Here you are conflating permissiveness with neglect. Yes, they sometimes occur together, but they are not one.

She CAN do whatever she wants, same with you or I. We are individuals; we have free will. Trying to keep her from doing what she wants is a losing battle.
What are some adult values? How about respect? You are an individual with your own wishes and desires, and so is that 5 year old girl. If you don't instill her with respect by giving it to her, her teen years are going to be a nightmare, and you will have already lost her. You can only pray that she will come back someday.

Unless your child is directly putting themselves in danger, no one should have a right to control their lives. Putting an invisible leash on them will only serve to put a rift between the both of you. A child can't develop self-discipline without being respected, so all you have left in your efforts to keep them from being a niussance is fear.

Look, it doesn't matter how old a person is, if you treat them like children, they're going to act like children. Look at high schools, look at nursing homes, and then look at that 5 year old girl. That five year old girl is smarter than you think, but you'll never know it unless you give her a chance.

sexymama

Eula, imho you are right in so many ways. I just think the message from you and Lebell both are getting mixed up in this extreme black and white. Truth is, you can't make anyone do anything. For example, I can't make my kids sleep. However, I can enforce a bedtime and it can be done respectfully. Don't you have to arrive to work on time? Don't you want out of work on time? The reason situations like that work is because of mutual respect.

Natural consequences, in this case being overtired in the morning but still being required to go to school, helps a child learn and set her/his own boundaries. However, there are times when I don't want nature to teach my child. I don't want her to learn that playing in the street is dangerous by getting hit by a car; nor do I want him to learn that brushing your teeth is necessary by getting rotten teeth. Some rules and boundaries are necessary. That doesn't mean there is not respect -- on the contrary, I love and respect my children enough to give them boundaries. (I see you say that somewhat above -- again, a "gray" area.)

It is interesting to me that you equate rules with complexity and punishment. I think that rules don't mean either of those things. They simply mean that an environment is created in which all persons involved feel important, valued, and respected. For example, my children must do chores. Why? Because they are a valued part of this family who need to participate in keeping the household running. Another example, if you are feeling moody, angry, etc., go on time out. I model putting myself on time out and yes, my children have been known to put themselves on time out. Time out is not a punishment, it is time to cool down and regroup (such as in a basketball game).

Finally, giving children boundaries is not disrespecting them. Children are given parents because they need guidance! Boundaries are the guides (we have them in society as well, they are called laws.) If children could make it in the world on their own, they wouldn't be given parents. Doing a good job parenting is difficult work. It takes thought, respect and love. Please don't undermine or underestimate the value of a good parent.

__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

EULA

They don't have to be asleep or in their beds to respect your slumber.
I think schools are psychotic prisons, so naturally I won't be waking them up in the morning. They will wake when they are finished sleeping.
You don't have to have boundaries. Just tell them, "If you play in the street there is great risk to your life." "If you don't brush your teeth, your teeth will rot." Children can understand these things without being bullied.
Does anyone make YOU do chores? Making them do chores cheapens the gesture your wanting them to make.
But you aren't making them go on time out here, you are modeling behavior.
Respect is enough of a boundary that takes care of many common issues you raised. Yeah, sometimes they will cross the line, but that fact doesn't need to be pointed out.
The nuclear family as we know it is relatively modern. Also, 100 years ago adulthood started at 12, 600 years ago in Europe it started at 3. Don't expect your child to mature when their locked in rooms with 30 other children and removed of individuality for 6 hours at school, and then come home to overbearing parents.
I'm not dis'ing "good parents", I'm just saying it's not that difficult. Let your kids do what they want, don't send them to school, and model what you believe is appropriate behavior. Yes, it's messy at first, but the family will unfold naturally. Don't be jealous of their freedom.

lindseylatch

I think when the children are older, then they can make thier own choices. However, children as young as 5 do not have to mental ability to reason out that not brushing their teeth today will lead to rotten teeth sometime in the future. They don't abstract very well. There is a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG difference between the brains of children and of adolescents. Just because you can say "well i'm tired today because I went to bed late last night" doesn't mean a child can. Read some psych papers, cause they do ALL agree on this point.
Also, I see boundaries as a way of setting the child up for self-restraint later in life. If they have boundaries set early in life, then they will be more likely to follow boundaries they themselves set up later in life. Children don't know what "respect" is, they don't understand such vague absract concepts.
I think that giving them choices is respectful, that telling them what will happen as a result of their actions is respectful. Ignoring their needs and allowing them to run wild IS NOT respectful, to them now or later.
Let me emphasize once more, please read some psych literature, as I'm sure Sexymama has since she's a teacher of children and parents, to back up your claims.
And i think that chores should be mutual. Parents do chores (some people call that work, and yes, someone makes us do it...the grocery store and the landlord and ultimately the govt), and kids do chores. Let your kids see that your work is a chore that you do every day. And hey, you can also unload the dishwasher once in a while.
Although I don't have kids, I have been around them, and I still remember somewhat what it was like when I was one. Sexymama's posts make a lot of sense, I think, and her husband says they have pretty well behaved young'uns. That's the real evidence in her favor.

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Lebell

Sexymama,

Thanks for your words and the attempt.

Eula,

You are free to raise your future family in the manner you see fit.

I've seen families raised like you suggest and I'll take sexymama's methods over them any day.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Zegel

Thanks everyone for your advice!

EULA, I think my natural instict is to do exactly what you're saying. Simply put, I'm not a controlling person. Unfortunately this isnt a perfect world and I think when it comes to parenting, my natural instict is dead wrong. If you simply let a child make her own choices, she isnt going to respect your word at an early age. Sure, she may understand and appreciate the freedom when she's older, but the younger ones need some sort of a guiding hand to help them along.

Children are children and have not learned that some actions have dire consequences. At one point my girl told me she did not need to wear her seatbelt, because she could hold on tight instead. I could take your approach and explain to her that that wont work and that she could be very hurt, without making her wear it, but what if she disagrees? I've been told things like "No, that is not the moon because it is out in the daytime - you're wrong." She simply does not know because she hasnt learned that lesson yet. To her, the seatbelt is annoying and since she has never been hurt or seen anyone hurt in a car accident, she doesnt know about the danger.

The same goes for your example of cookies. There is no guarantee that she will eat them until she gets sick - children arent animals and tend to exhibit self control in atleast moderate amounts. There is a good chance that she will eat them in moderation, never getting sick. But if I let that go on year after year, she will eventually be very unhealthy.

There are hundreds if not thousands of examples like those above. So, I'm sorry, but I'm not going let my five year old make decisions that may endanger her life. Sure, I will attempt to give her choice as often as possible, but I will never let that limit my ability to protect her.


Sexymama, your suggestions are things that we have thought of before, but failed to apply correctly. I think you're right when you say that it's not always what you do, but how you do it. And with this girl sometimes I find that if I dont do things just right, I trap myself =P. She definitely does not like to be controlled, and is smart enough to see the holes in our techniques.

For instance, we've used the 'Grandma's Rule' fairly often:

If we said that and left her to her own devices, she would pick up her toys five minutes before bedtime and then ask to watch a movie.

When she tries to bend a rule like that (and bending rules is pretty much the core of our problems, so this can apply to many things), I see two different solutions:

1. Be extremely specific when informing her of what a rule is. While this eliminates the loopholes, it's also extremely controlling. I.e. let her know that she has five minutes to clean up her toys or she does not get to watch a movie.

2. Let her attempt to use a loophole, and when she does, explain to her why it doesnt work that way. I.e. let her play five minutes until bedtime, when she asks to then watch a movie, let her know that she made a choice to spend all of her time playing and now we have to go to bed without a movie.

I usually lean towards #2, she might get upset, but hopefully she learns a small lesson in time management in the process. If anyone has alternative ideas, feel free to let me know .

But most importantly, I think I'll take your suggesting to spend more time with her. I know lack of attention can lead to these types of problems, but like everyone we lead busy lives so I can see where sometimes she could feel ignored. Busy lives or not, I'm sure we can make more time to interact with her.

Charlatan

Sexymama's advice is exactly how I have been rasing both of my children and I have received *many* compliments on how well behaved and responsible my 10-year-old son is... my two year old is still a work in progress...

EULA... I know where you are coming from, believe me I once thought as you... then I had kids. The method sexymama has suggested give ownership and responsibility to the child while setting boundaries...

The key to having a free thinking and acting child is to instil them with a solid sense of right and wrong and a sense of communal responsibility (i.e. we all live in this house and picking up after yourself is part of what it means to live here)...

So far, this method is working well.

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EULA

I can't wait.
edit

Lebell

Good luck.

And if it doesn't work:

http://www.loveandlogic.com/

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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sexymama

Zegal -- you are doing a great job, just by being able to identify what needs to improve and how to improve it! That in itself is major! Remember, there is no such thing as the perfect parent or the perfect child. Thank God for that -- we can make mistakes and still do an overall good job!

I made the mistake of not "making" my son brush his teeth. He was a teenager so I believed him when he said, "believe me mom, I don't want rotten teeth." Well, his dental bill when he got his braces removed was over $3,000. Some boundaries are just necessary. Now one of my daughter's teeth are checked by me regularly. She doesn't like to brush. I don't, however, worry about the other who brushes more than I do.

That said, I really started out to comment on "one liners." Jim Faye from Love and Logic says to use one liners when stuck. Here are some examples:
5-year-old cleans up 5 minutes before bedtime and then wants to watch the movie: your response, "good try."
Last weekend my daughter didn't check in after spending the night with a friend and prior to going to a movie with her. Lebell and I worried for 4 hours (called police and everything as we didn't know if she'd been in an accident.) I was 5 hours away at a gym meet. When she called to tell me she was home, I said, "don't worry about the consequences right now, we'll talk about it when I get home." Of course she spent 5 hours worrying. What a great leason. The one liner -- "don't worry."

Gee -- I can't think of more right now, but they do work and there are a lot of good ones out there. What I like about them is that they make parenting fun. I'll try to work on more and post them later.

__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

PDOUBLEOP

sorry for bringing back an old thread....

Eula, as a father of four, I must respectively disagree with your approach on raising children. Since I have never met an adult who is allowed to do anything they want, why would I raise my child to assume that they would be able to?

__________________
ef you-you effing ef

EULA

You can do anything you want. Everyone can, and your children already know they can do whatever they want; it's not something you have to raise a child to understand. That's why respect is so important, for if everyone can do whatever they want, only respect will keep them from harming others.

Now I know you'll say, "You can't do anything you want, because many of those things are illegal." True, but what happens when no one is looking? How will your children behave when they know that they won't get caught?

What happens when your children move away and no longer have a leash around their necks? What happens when you stop giving them rewards?

Rewards can be very dangerous. This is something I've heard from psychologist before I started developing my parenting philosophy. Rewards are now thought to be one of the reasons why public schools are such shit. You do this, you get this. That will work as long as you give rewards. Once they go to junior high or high school where there won't be rewards, they won't do anything.

Take any activity a child enjoys like painting. Give them rewards like candy or recess time after they finish painting. After two or three months, stop giving them rewards. They will stop painting, even though they used to do it for the fun of it.

When you create systems of rewards, you start planting this question into your child's thought processes: "What's in it for me?"

As far as my freedom deal, remember that noises in quiet rooms appear louder. If you let your children do whatever they want, the few times that you do tell them to do something (e.g. don't play in the street, wear your seatbelt, brush your teeth), they will oblige. This dynamic is well known by my friends: We get in the car to go out to eat. They say, "Where do you want to go?" I rarely have a preference, so I rarely say where to go. The few times I do want to go someplace, I say, "Let's go to Wendy's." There is no question about where we will go to eat. I know this is a different situation, but it does apply to children.

edit: I think I said this before, but I'll say it again: permissive-authoritarian parenting is messy at first, but it does work. Also, this parenting method is only compatible with homeschooling. If you send your children to school, where they are tightly controlled for 7 hours, they will bring home the disrespect that was bestowed upon them at school.

EULA

And here's one for you.

sexymama

The funny part of all this discussion, Eula, is that we really agree more then we disagree. I give my children a LOT of freedom! All I ask for in return is that they are respectful. To me, it is respectful to come home when arranged, to help with chores (note: I do chores to!), to speak nicely, etc. When I let them learn from their mistakes, for example getting cold by not wearing a coat outside or bieng tired from not going to bed on time, they learn to think through their actions. When they think, it no longer matters if I'm around or not -- they will make good choices simply because they know what they choose will effect them.

As for rewards, you are right on. Children need to be taught to feel good about themselves -- but too many externall rewards DOES NOT build self-esteem. I will often use phrases such as, "wow, that must have felt good to have everyone applaud for you;" or "how did it feel when they hung your artwork front and center?" I want them to tune into intrisnic rather then extrinsic rewards.

__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

PDOUBLEOP

My children rarely receive rewards. Why would I reward them for something they're "supposed" to do in the first place??? Does someone give me an allowance for making my bed? Washing my own dishes??? They get some sort of a reward for the "above and beyond" things they do. My ex-wife practices the "let them do what they want" style of parenting. It failed miserably for both children when they lived with her. They have zero respect for her. Since the younger has lived with me, his behavior has improved dramatically.

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ef you-you effing ef

Zegel

EULA, just to follow up: I think your intentions are admirable, and your method could potentially work, but would give you this word of caution: Children are unpredictable at best and a method that works for one child can produce the exact opposite results with another child.

If you do become a parent one day, dont go into it thinking that you have the right answer. It's great to have an idea of what you want to do, but I woud not recommend trying to force the shoe if it doesnt fit. Adaptation is key!

Slavakion

I think what you need is a healthy balance between strictness and permissiveness. Children need to be given boundaries and held to them. If my parents hadn't done that, I'm fairly certain that I would be a snotty little brat. On the other hand, you can't smother your kids. Rule upon rule will only make them resent you for taking the fun out of everything. Give them rules and responsibilities, but also privileges. As they prove themselves to be able to behave, the rules can change to reflect their growing maturity.

Keep in mind that I'm not a parent, but this is roughly how my parents raised me. And this is how I plan to raise my children someday. If it seems a bit vague, well, I don't have much life experience.

For some reason I've thought you to be female ever since I joined. Your avatar maybe?

EULA

PDOUBLEOP: Was the permissiveness a symptom or the disease?

Zegel: I am flexible, but I kinda had to weather to storm in this thread. It gives me good practe. I'm sure my children will break all my carefully-laid plans....little shits. :P

PDOUBLEOP

EULA, she basically tries to be their friend as opposed to their parent. The two are not mutually exclusive but there needs to be a line drawn somewhere. I know several parents who take the "friend" approach and they are constantly lied to and disrespected by their children. It's unfortunate because these are caring parents with the best of intentions that don't understand why the kids won't listen to them. One person has a teenage girl who is always getting herself into questionable positions. Her mother always says she's going to punish her but never really does because she doesn't want her daughter to be mad at her. It's almost become laughable when the mom says "she wouldn't lie to me again, we're really close now" time and time again.

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ef you-you effing ef

EULA

PDOUBLEOP: Where did those kids learn to lie and be disrespectful?

PDOUBLEOP

When there are basically no penalties for your actions, you learn to do whatever you want.

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ef you-you effing ef

Joan of Arc

I bet you or your husband like to argue alot too. It's genetic.

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"Insanity and Genius are on the same side of the street"

Ustwo

My parents did a pretty good job raising their kids, but, while they were not the overly permissive types of the 60's like so many of their peers, they did give us to much freedom of action. We were respectful etc (they were good there) but unmotivated.

Finally my dad kicked me in my ass when I was 22 and I turned out ok. If it weren't for that very long night I don't know where I'd be today but it would be in a lot worse shape. Luckly the framework was there so to speak, it just required a bigger push. On the other hand I wonder what I could have accomplished had this happened when I was younger.

Being friends with your kids is great, but you have to guide them, by example and by rule. I've seen to many spoiled children who are friends with their parents but end up as lifes losers. You can be a friend and a parent at the same time, but when they push, you need to be a parent first.

Edit: and Eula, good luck, what you think of parenting horrifies me, but thats just my opinion.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Cynthetiq

i'm siding with sexymama and lebell....

I too have seen many of my own cousins be raised in the EULA method and I cannot begin to explain how unable they are to compete in today's global economy or even within their local neighborhood economy. Some of them still live at home at 35.

"wake up when they are finished sleeping" yeah okay, if the working people don't get to do that you mean the "prince and princess" get to?

as far as the schools being pyschotic prisons, maybe, but at the same not, that's just one of the few reasons I won't be having children.

I pay attention to adults like EULA and how they wish to raise kids so that I know what I'm dealing with as co-workers in the future and that scares me more than anything else.

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raeanna74

I've seen a very good example of the differences in parenting. I have watched a little girl for 3 years now. Her parents began their divorce just about the time I started watching her. Now they have 50/50 custody. I can see a distinct in their parenting styles and a very direct correlation in her behavior. The mother is a teacher and has had practice at discipline. She gives the daughter a daily schedule, rules (and enforces them consistently, and good food. The father enjoys indulging the girl and allows her to go to bed when she falls asleep, lets her sleep in, and lets her pretty much eat what she wants. When she throws a tantrum he gives in. I've rarely seen her throw tantrums for the mother and when she has the mother has not given in. When she is coming during a week when Dad has her she frequently throws a tantrum within about 30 min of arriving. It's almost like clockwork. Then once I enforce our rules here, give her the timeout or appropriate punishment (like removing a toy or turning off the TV) she will usually fly through the rest of the day without balking much. When I have her on weeks when the mother is here she usually arrives tired and needs time to be quiet but rarely throws a full blown screaming tantrum like she does on Dad's weeks. The parents are both loving and caring. One has rules and the other does not. The daughter is in general happier WITH the rules than without even though she loves both parents. No one can say Dad is wrong necessarily for indulging her but I would say, based on her behavior that Dad's choices aren't the BEST for the daughter.

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"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

EULA

Curious, but did the said children go to school?

There is a veritable underground of people that follow the garbage I espouse here, and they are quite successful. The quoted text reminds me of that fallacy of coincidence and causation. Can't remember the latin name for it.

raenna: She uses tantrums, because sometimes it works. I don't think that fact alone makes her fathering not in her best interest.

raeanna74

Tantrums should not "sometimes" work. The fact that there are many more tantrums during the times when he is caring for her shows that there are some problems with his method. No one is perfect but SOMETHING is wrong with his choices.

I have also seen several of the students that I was friends with in high school. One is a computer technician that is hired out to other companies for his expertise, one is a veterinarian, one is a biologist currently in Papua New Guinea, one started his own business and has had to move to a third facility because of the rapid growth over the years... ALL of whom had VERY strict homes and their parents were NOT their buddies. Being your child's buddy does not alone ensure their success in today's economy.

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"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.