Does Infinity Really Exist? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

skullfunk · 03-31-2005, 01:58 AM

A thought popped into my mind the other day: Is the universe infinite in any way?

Think about it for a second: within our universe, there is a minimum size something can be (Planck length), a minimum time that something can take to occur (Planck time), and a maximum speed that something can travel. I do understand that smaller sizes and time-frames exist, but they mean nothing within the causality and reality of the universe. So our universe is discrete at its lowest levels.

Furthermore, (if we are to believe mainstream fizzix), everything began a finite time ago, as a finite size. So, if size, time and velocity must be discrete, then there's nothing infinite in the equation. The implications of this are boggling. For example, this means one Planck-time moment in our universe can be defined and classified, given enough time. If this is so, then all moments in the history of our universe can be rounded up and classified. And because of this, our universe and any other would have a finite description. Therefore, there cannot be infinite unique universes.

And, if the universe is deterministic, we don't even need to measure all these moments; just the first one. But I'm getting ahead of myself and digressing.

Unless I'm missing something, this universe is not infinite. Unimaginably large, yes, but not infinite.

Willravel · 03-31-2005, 02:47 AM

If there is something beyond the universe, then something beyond that, then something beyond that, then something beyond that...etc., perhapse there is finally a barrier that superceedes what we know of physics. Maybe there finally is something beyond the final border that simply extends forever. Or maybe there are borders that go on forever. So to answer your question, maybe. As far as I understand it, I don't think science is ready to give a definitive answer yet.

03-31-2005, 05:45 AM

The universe may not be infinite, but it may be unmeasurable. Similarly, you can have a form of free will in a deterministic universe when events become uncalculable. They follow the same laws we all know and love, it's just that it's impossible to predict with any certainty what the outcome of all those laws will be untill you actually do something. Plank minimums may be the smallest distrete length, but it is a length expressed in our 3-dimensional terms, there may be smaller things, or even processes that occur within plank units, but which are stretched off or otherwise hidden from our perceptions of the usual 3 dimensions.

d*d · 03-31-2005, 06:15 AM

the problem is we don't know what infinity is as to state wether or not it exists or not, infinity makes our maths work but it is not tangible within a 3d universe such as ours (or our experience of it anyway). Also your description does not take into account the posibility that the universe may expand infinately (open universe model)

Someone Else · 03-31-2005, 06:18 AM

Quote:

And, if the universe is deterministic, we don't even need to measure all these moments; just the first one.

Except for the fact that it is impossible to measure the first instance to the poin t where all the variables are known in absolute terms, because when you begin to measure such minute values, the actual act of measurement disturbs the situation being measured...and without a complete understanding of the variables in a situation it is impossible to predict the future...ENTER CHAOS THEORY.

skullfunk · 03-31-2005, 06:25 AM

Thanks for your insights.

I guess the crux of my point is not to concentrate too much on whether we can calculate or compute our universe, although I have no problem hearing those thoughts, too. More, I would just like to know if anyone can think of anything that makes our universe infinite.

Also, to WillRavel: yes what lies beyond what we can see may go on forever, but I would not be too concerned with that until physics proves that things too far away to even send photons to us can participate in (and therefore be considered a part of) our earth-centric universe.

I think we can all forget about wrapping our minds around the issue if it is true, though. It's not like any computer could be made to store all the information involved in even a moment of the universe's life. The concept, I believe, is only important to thought exercises, like Albert Einstein used to play with.

skullfunk · 03-31-2005, 06:39 AM

Yeah...just forget that I mentioned determinism. That's a HUGE topic in and of itself.

As for quantum mechanics, yes, things exist with only probabilities, but these probabilities are static. At any one moment, a scientist can know the placement of an electron with, say, 60% accuracy, and its velocity with 40% accuracy. Another time, the percentages may be different. But at any one time, this understanding of the electron is not variable: the percentages are certain. These values define any electron at any moment.

Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm no quantum physicist. It might be a copout, I don't know.

At a later time, I'll delineate how discreteness of space and time seems to me to even make these probabities limited in their precision, and therefore totally finite.

John Henry · 03-31-2005, 07:50 AM

As far as I know (and I may be out of date here) the expansion of the universe is accelerating and the Planck constant is staying constant.

I'll let you decide what the implications are for infinity. I'm still grappling with Cantor.

Yakk · 03-31-2005, 11:05 AM

First of all, if you are infinite in any extent, you are infinite.

Thus, if there is no bound on the future, the universe may be infinite.

Or, if the multiple universes interpritation of Q-M is correct, the universe may be infinite in "breath", mayhap. Dunno if it works out to 'very large' or 'infinite'.

There is the 'extremely large universe' theory that states that a within a large number of visible-universe-radii away, there exists another exact copy of the current visible-universe.

skullfunk · 03-31-2005, 08:27 PM

Yakk: I would have to disagree. Unless our universe is already infinitely old, it never will be. Let's say that it is currently 10000000000000000000000000000000000000, or n, seconds old (a complete fudge: just imagine something finite). Then, in one second, it will be n+1 seconds. So, for the universe to eventually be infinite, n+1 must eventually reach infinity. However, it never will.

flstf · 03-31-2005, 09:25 PM

The concepts of infinity and finity make no sense to me. I mean, I understand the definition of the words but cannot imagine that the universe can be infinite. On the other hand I cannot imagine that it is finite because something has to be on the other side. I think we have a ways to go before we begin to understand our reality.

Hain · 03-31-2005, 09:26 PM

Well this gets into interesting topics. I personally enjoy thinking that the insignificant changes that can be done which alter great things allows for infinite amounts of possible universes to occur. But we don't know that these other places exist. Infinity then does not exist within our understanding of the universe: it's size, age, beginning, or ending.

Holdem Dvorak · 03-31-2005, 11:59 PM

I don't know about the math, but the stereos rock.

Yakk · 04-01-2005, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skullfunk

Yakk: I would have to disagree. Unless our universe is already infinitely old, it never will be. Let's say that it is currently 10000000000000000000000000000000000000, or n, seconds old (a complete fudge: just imagine something finite). Then, in one second, it will be n+1 seconds. So, for the universe to eventually be infinite, n+1 must eventually reach infinity. However, it never will.

That is if you place yourself within time.

A line that continues on forever continues on forever. At any one point, there may only be a finite amount of line to the left of your point, but if you look at the line as a whole the line is infinitely long.

The universe "will never be infinitely old", but it can be infinite.

Imagine an infinite plane. You can only measure out a finite amount of it, but that doesn't mean the plane isn't infinite.

The set of counting numbers is infinite, but you cannot count up to infinity.

The inability to finitely measure the duration of an infinitely long in duration universe does not mean the universe isn't infinitely long in duration.

meembo · 04-01-2005, 07:11 PM

I'm content that infinity (in any dimension) is something that we suspect exists beyond our understanding. willravel says that science can't give a definitive answer. I say that there isn't a definitive scientific answer. I think that faith is inevitably part of the human experience, and faith is a belief that has nothing to do with what can be proven. That doesn't imply in any way that the faith is invalid -- just not scientific.

Infinity is a quasi-scientific idea that really flirts with a suspension of logic, and I think infinity is the natural fuzzy border between rationality and faith.

How's that for fuzzy logic?

Sargeman · 04-06-2005, 11:12 AM

Along the same lines, I've often asked the question "What if the universe had existed before and some how it contracted itself after it had already expanded all it would and now it's expanding again." Of course there's more to my thought than it just being that simple.

pennywise121 · 04-08-2005, 10:27 AM

it really is interesting to see the myriad of opinions on this topic.

personally, i like the parable that Nietzsche tells in THUS SPAKE ZARATHUSTRA (you can find it at http://nietzsche.thefreelibrary.com/...rathustra/48-1 just look under section 2).

basically, travelers walk along a road for quite some time and come to a gateway labeled "Moment." if you look back from this gateway, there is an infinitely long road behind you; similarly, if you look ahead of the gateway, there is another infinitely long road. the gateway is measurable, but the path is not. if the travellers came across the gateway in their travels, then it must have been there before them, and will be there when they leave (relativity aside, that is). that being the case, it is possible that they have been to "moment" before, and will be there again, because of the infinality of their path.
of course, this was a demonstration of nietzsche's idea of the recurrent nature of existence, and the idea that we will all be reincarnated and do the same things in the same way an immeasurable number of times. thats besides the point, i suppose. just wanted to give some context from the philosophical side.

03-31-2005, 01:58 AM	#1 (permalink)
skullfunk Upright Location: Michigan	Does Infinity Really Exist? A thought popped into my mind the other day: Is the universe infinite in any way? Think about it for a second: within our universe, there is a minimum size something can be (Planck length), a minimum time that something can take to occur (Planck time), and a maximum speed that something can travel. I do understand that smaller sizes and time-frames exist, but they mean nothing within the causality and reality of the universe. So our universe is discrete at its lowest levels. Furthermore, (if we are to believe mainstream fizzix), everything began a finite time ago, as a finite size. So, if size, time and velocity must be discrete, then there's nothing infinite in the equation. The implications of this are boggling. For example, this means one Planck-time moment in our universe can be defined and classified, given enough time. If this is so, then all moments in the history of our universe can be rounded up and classified. And because of this, our universe and any other would have a finite description. Therefore, there cannot be infinite unique universes. And, if the universe is deterministic, we don't even need to measure all these moments; just the first one. But I'm getting ahead of myself and digressing. Unless I'm missing something, this universe is not infinite. Unimaginably large, yes, but not infinite. __________________ War doesn't decide who's right, only who's left. -Mark Twain

03-31-2005, 06:25 AM	#6 (permalink)
skullfunk Upright Location: Michigan	Thanks for your insights. I guess the crux of my point is not to concentrate too much on whether we can calculate or compute our universe, although I have no problem hearing those thoughts, too. More, I would just like to know if anyone can think of anything that makes our universe infinite. Also, to WillRavel: yes what lies beyond what we can see may go on forever, but I would not be too concerned with that until physics proves that things too far away to even send photons to us can participate in (and therefore be considered a part of) our earth-centric universe. I think we can all forget about wrapping our minds around the issue if it is true, though. It's not like any computer could be made to store all the information involved in even a moment of the universe's life. The concept, I believe, is only important to thought exercises, like Albert Einstein used to play with. __________________ War doesn't decide who's right, only who's left. -Mark Twain

03-31-2005, 06:39 AM	#7 (permalink)
skullfunk Upright Location: Michigan	Yeah...just forget that I mentioned determinism. That's a HUGE topic in and of itself. As for quantum mechanics, yes, things exist with only probabilities, but these probabilities are static. At any one moment, a scientist can know the placement of an electron with, say, 60% accuracy, and its velocity with 40% accuracy. Another time, the percentages may be different. But at any one time, this understanding of the electron is not variable: the percentages are certain. These values define any electron at any moment. Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm no quantum physicist. It might be a copout, I don't know. At a later time, I'll delineate how discreteness of space and time seems to me to even make these probabities limited in their precision, and therefore totally finite. __________________ War doesn't decide who's right, only who's left. -Mark Twain

03-31-2005, 07:50 AM	#8 (permalink)
John Henry Addict Location: Grey Britain	As far as I know (and I may be out of date here) the expansion of the universe is accelerating and the Planck constant is staying constant. I'll let you decide what the implications are for infinity. I'm still grappling with Cantor. __________________ "No one was behaving from very Buddhist motives. Then, thought Pigsy, he was hardly a Buddha, nor was he a monkey. Presently, he was a pig spirit changed into a little girl pretending to be a little boy to be offered to a water monster. It was all very simple to a pig spirit."

03-31-2005, 11:05 AM	#9 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	First of all, if you are infinite in any extent, you are infinite. Thus, if there is no bound on the future, the universe may be infinite. Or, if the multiple universes interpritation of Q-M is correct, the universe may be infinite in "breath", mayhap. Dunno if it works out to 'very large' or 'infinite'. There is the 'extremely large universe' theory that states that a within a large number of visible-universe-radii away, there exists another exact copy of the current visible-universe. __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

03-31-2005, 02:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	If there is something beyond the universe, then something beyond that, then something beyond that, then something beyond that...etc., perhapse there is finally a barrier that superceedes what we know of physics. Maybe there finally is something beyond the final border that simply extends forever. Or maybe there are borders that go on forever. So to answer your question, maybe. As far as I understand it, I don't think science is ready to give a definitive answer yet.

03-31-2005, 05:45 AM	#3 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	The universe may not be infinite, but it may be unmeasurable. Similarly, you can have a form of free will in a deterministic universe when events become uncalculable. They follow the same laws we all know and love, it's just that it's impossible to predict with any certainty what the outcome of all those laws will be untill you actually do something. Plank minimums may be the smallest distrete length, but it is a length expressed in our 3-dimensional terms, there may be smaller things, or even processes that occur within plank units, but which are stretched off or otherwise hidden from our perceptions of the usual 3 dimensions.

03-31-2005, 06:15 AM	#4 (permalink)
d*d Addict	the problem is we don't know what infinity is as to state wether or not it exists or not, infinity makes our maths work but it is not tangible within a 3d universe such as ours (or our experience of it anyway). Also your description does not take into account the posibility that the universe may expand infinately (open universe model)

03-31-2005, 08:27 PM	#10 (permalink)
skullfunk Upright Location: Michigan	Yakk: I would have to disagree. Unless our universe is already infinitely old, it never will be. Let's say that it is currently 10000000000000000000000000000000000000, or n, seconds old (a complete fudge: just imagine something finite). Then, in one second, it will be n+1 seconds. So, for the universe to eventually be infinite, n+1 must eventually reach infinity. However, it never will. __________________ War doesn't decide who's right, only who's left. -Mark Twain

03-31-2005, 09:25 PM	#11 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	The concepts of infinity and finity make no sense to me. I mean, I understand the definition of the words but cannot imagine that the universe can be infinite. On the other hand I cannot imagine that it is finite because something has to be on the other side. I think we have a ways to go before we begin to understand our reality.

03-31-2005, 09:26 PM	#12 (permalink)
Hain has a plan Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere	Well this gets into interesting topics. I personally enjoy thinking that the insignificant changes that can be done which alter great things allows for infinite amounts of possible universes to occur. But we don't know that these other places exist. Infinity then does not exist within our understanding of the universe: it's size, age, beginning, or ending. __________________ ////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

03-31-2005, 11:59 PM	#13 (permalink)
Holdem Dvorak Tilted Location: The land of the silent S	I don't know about the math, but the stereos rock.

04-01-2005, 07:11 PM	#15 (permalink)
meembo Junkie Location: Connecticut	I'm content that infinity (in any dimension) is something that we suspect exists beyond our understanding. willravel says that science can't give a definitive answer. I say that there isn't a definitive scientific answer. I think that faith is inevitably part of the human experience, and faith is a belief that has nothing to do with what can be proven. That doesn't imply in any way that the faith is invalid -- just not scientific. Infinity is a quasi-scientific idea that really flirts with a suspension of logic, and I think infinity is the natural fuzzy border between rationality and faith. How's that for fuzzy logic? __________________ less I say, smarter I am

04-06-2005, 11:12 AM	#16 (permalink)
Sargeman Insane Location: Texas	Along the same lines, I've often asked the question "What if the universe had existed before and some how it contracted itself after it had already expanded all it would and now it's expanding again." Of course there's more to my thought than it just being that simple. __________________ ...because there are no facts, there is no truth, just data to be manipulated. I can get you any results you like, what's it worth to you.....

04-08-2005, 10:27 AM	#17 (permalink)
pennywise121 Upright Location: Sacramento	it really is interesting to see the myriad of opinions on this topic. personally, i like the parable that Nietzsche tells in THUS SPAKE ZARATHUSTRA (you can find it at http://nietzsche.thefreelibrary.com/...rathustra/48-1 just look under section 2). basically, travelers walk along a road for quite some time and come to a gateway labeled "Moment." if you look back from this gateway, there is an infinitely long road behind you; similarly, if you look ahead of the gateway, there is another infinitely long road. the gateway is measurable, but the path is not. if the travellers came across the gateway in their travels, then it must have been there before them, and will be there when they leave (relativity aside, that is). that being the case, it is possible that they have been to "moment" before, and will be there again, because of the infinality of their path. of course, this was a demonstration of nietzsche's idea of the recurrent nature of existence, and the idea that we will all be reincarnated and do the same things in the same way an immeasurable number of times. thats besides the point, i suppose. just wanted to give some context from the philosophical side.