2012 and all that - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Notamongoose · 03-28-2005, 08:19 AM

Hello everybody,

I thought I'd dive in at the deep end with my first TFP post. I'd like to bring up the subject of the 21st December, 2012.

This is the scheduled end for the ancienct Mayan calender, and also of the timewave encoded in the I Ching. (as suggested by Terrence McKenna, the dates only later noticed to be coinciding).

What will happen in 2012? Well I don't think anybody can really put a good answer on that, given that so many different things in the world are changing. Dan S Ward, on his website Halexandria, cites a few possibilities being discussed. "These possibilities include 2012 A.D. as a time for:

1) major changes in human DNA (as in Indigo Children),

2) an enormous leap in Consciousness,

3) dimensional shifts (as in Hyperdimensional Physics and/or Superstrings),

4) the cessation of linear Time,

5) an evolutionary human pinnacle,

6) a huge surge and multiple breakthroughs in technology,

7) the end of Money [Shirley, you jest!],

8) massive genetic mutations [the good news!],

9) a serious, altogether-too-close encounter with a Near-Earth Objects member,

10) and a cosmic alignment of our solar system with the plane of our Galaxy, the Milky Way. The latter represents the end of a 25,920 year cycle -- a cycle based on the Precession of the Equinoxes). "

http://www.halexandria.org/dward415.htm

If you're not a fan of astrology you won't like this website at all. In fact, anybody with a sceptic streak probably won't like his website.

What I'm interested in is what people think of all this. Are there many of you out there who, like me, are waiting in silent anticipation for the rebirth of the human race? Who's scared of the wars that will inevitably come beforehand?

I'm anticipating many flat refusals to even discuss the possibility of these prophecies being true, but I'm hoping there may be some who agree in part with my beliefs.

Not a Mongoose

03-28-2005, 08:47 AM

this belongs in Paranoia.

tecoyah · 03-28-2005, 08:50 AM

Not really....there is evidence available worthy of discussion

should members decide to think on it

Bill O'Rights · 03-28-2005, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zen_tom

this belongs in Paranoia.

No. At first, I thought the same...but...not yet. Let's see where this goes. You may yet be correct, but let's see.

03-28-2005, 09:16 AM

Sure, just not my cup of tea I suppose. Predicting the future based on arbitrary positions and conjunctions of planets and stars makes no sense to me, and the idea that the ancient and wise Mayans planned their calendar to 'roll over' in 2012 is akin to me suggesting something exciting will happen when my car odometer rolls over to 10,000.

Quite how the structure of DNA might be affected by the position of planets is beyond me also.

I don't know what a dimensional shift is, but it might be interesting to discuss in a thread on its own.

Apologies for being so initially harsh. Welcome to the TFP Notamongoose, and please excuse my unfriendly manner - we're not all as rude as I am!

Master_Shake · 03-28-2005, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notamongoose

What I'm interested in is what people think of all this.

Obviously, it's the creation of the whole 16th dimensional 4-corner timecube, even I know that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gene Ray

Educated people are stupid cowards.
Not a single university has accepted my challenge
for a public debate of Nature's Time Cube. They
are actually brainwashed stupid and decline any
public debate for fear of public embarrassment.
Physicists forbidden to acknowledge Time Cube.
Stupid educators always beget stupid graduates.
Not one knows of their 4-corner metamorphosis.

asaris · 03-28-2005, 09:46 AM

Look, as a Christian, I think the world's going to end eventually. But the fact of the matter is, people have been expecting the imminent end of the world since the beginning of the world, and we're still here. We should probably be ready for it, but to have a specific date? Empirical evidence suggests that any specific date is probably wrong.

Notamongoose · 03-28-2005, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Quite how the structure of DNA might be affected by the position of planets is beyond me also.

The idea of the position of planets affecting us as humans had always seemed to me to be a ridiculous one. I began to realise it might be true when reading about 2012, but the clincher for me was a book by Sir Roger Penrose, "Shadows of the Mind". In it, he presents a candidate for the source of consciousness within the human mind: "large-scale quantum-coherent behaviour occurring within the microtubules of the cytoskeletons of neurons". The microtubules exhibit quantam computing behaviour, and, crucially, their structure is so fine that minute gravitational changes during their creation, such as the alignment of planets, can have an effect.

I think the most compelling evidence for the end date is in Terrence McKenna's Timewave. Simply based on the 6,000 year old I Ching, his mathematical analysis produced a wave that fit the changes in events throughout history. From the building of the egyptian pyramids, to the announcement of Einstein's theory of general relativity, all periods of great advancement and upheaval coincide with dips in the timewave graph. And the accelerating rate of technological change in the past 150 years coincides with a lengthened dip in the wave that approaches, then reaches zero, in 2012.

The I Ching, and the Tao Te Ching, are believed to be texts common to the roots of all the world's major religions. The fact that it actually has encoded within a map of historical change must say something for the validity of making predictions.

runtuff · 03-28-2005, 12:25 PM

Oh come on. Buckaroo Bonzai II might be out by then. Seriously its going to be another day. This belongs in paranoia. By the way didn't we have a recent alignment of the planets and nothing happened. Seems we have had other end of the world "cults" spring up, and die. Thanks for alerting us to the next one in advance actually I'll actually be up on something new for a change so I guess I should say thanks.

Master_Shake · 03-28-2005, 12:42 PM

Quote:

The microtubules exhibit quantam computing behaviour, and, crucially, their structure is so fine that minute gravitational changes during their creation, such as the alignment of planets, can have an effect.

Sounds like a pretty dubious claim. How can planets and other such objects have a greater effect on the formation of the microtubules than the gravity of the Earth?

If gravity really played such a large part during microtubular formation then imagine standing on one's head.

And of course, microtubules and the cytoskeletons of neurons are not DNA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by notamongoose

I think the most compelling evidence for the end date is in Terrence McKenna's Timewave. Simply based on the 6,000 year old I Ching, his mathematical analysis produced a wave that fit the changes in events throughout history. From the building of the egyptian pyramids, to the announcement of Einstein's theory of general relativity, all periods of great advancement and upheaval coincide with dips in the timewave graph. And the accelerating rate of technological change in the past 150 years coincides with a lengthened dip in the wave that approaches, then reaches zero, in 2012.

What the hell is a Timewave? How is it different from a Timecube?

Quote:

Originally Posted by notamongoose

The I Ching, and the Tao Te Ching, are believed to be texts common to the roots of all the world's major religions. The fact that it actually has encoded within a map of historical change must say something for the validity of making predictions.

Oh, I see. This has nothing to do with the Timecube, but rather with the I-Ching.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Chiu

In I-Ching, there are Ying and Yang. (brightness and darkness) In animals, there are DNA and RNA. In I-Ching, there are a total of 64 hexagrams. In animals, the number of codons in the genetic code is also 64. In I-Ching, Ying separates into two, and Yang separates into two. That makes four. Each of the four separates into two. That makes eight. Each of the eight separates into two. That makes 64. In biochemistry, DNA and RNA become four nucleotide bases. Then both the DNA and RNA separate into 2. Then those chemicals also separate into 2. At the end, there are exactly 64 codons in the genetic code.

There are 64 hexagrams in I-Ching, and there are 64 codons in the universal genetic code. I-Ching hexagrams are being composed of 3 symbols of 2 lines each. The codons are composed of 4 nucleic acids taken 3 at a time. The problem is: which nucleic acid corresponds to which I-Ching symbol?

frogza · 03-28-2005, 12:43 PM

Given that this date came from two civilizations who couldn't stand the test of time, I don't think their theory will either. If they could accuratly foretell the outcome of the world or human race, I just think they would have been able to foretell and prevent their own falls.

03-28-2005, 12:43 PM

If you analyse something enough, it will begin to fit whatever you want it to fit to. The I-Ching lends itself to dynamic analysis because it blends binary and trinary values and analysis of this type of data always produces chaotic patterns. Likewise tea-leaves, runes and other mumbo-jumbo.

The 'facts' you are referring to are not facts at all, but simple cases of data being bent and chosen to fit events.

Look at how there is a Timewave, and a 'Revised' TimeWave. If the first one is so good, why does he have to make a revision? To fit the facts presented (and ignored by the original Timewave) by the occurance of WWII. This is bogus pseudo-science being dressed up as fact, and it's simply not believable.

Master_Shake · 03-28-2005, 12:43 PM

And only in the first Buckaroo Banzai movie did he travel across the 8th Dimension. In the as-yet-unfilmed sequel he will go up against the World Crime League.

superiorrain · 03-28-2005, 12:53 PM

I thought it is supposed to end this year, i'm not too sure why i say that but i recently spoke to a few people about this and we all agreed that although it was always thought to be 2012, in fact the dates were mixed up, and 2005 is the year of the 'end of the way life is as we know it'. I'll get back with some research to explain it all clearer.

As for all those who say it belongs in paranoia you're wrong it belongs in philosophy or here.

oh and from the list i punting for 2 and 3 to happen either that or nothing, but if it is 2 and 3 it won't happen to all and thats where i start losing the concept.

One thing i do know is that it has nothing to do with time, as that is a man made invention which simply does not exist, again i'm working on an explination of that to.

03-28-2005, 12:55 PM

Here's a link to a larger-scale analysis of the timewave http://www.levity.com/eschaton/twzdemo.html - that shows how insignificant we are in the big scheme of things. Either the Timewave is human-centric and we are worthless stuff existing at the end of all time, or it is universal, and the things we 'predict' in it are not real because of all the other stuff that's happening in the universe that muddies up the signal, and it's the end of all time. Or maybe, it's just games with numbers.

Janey · 03-28-2005, 12:57 PM

There is nothing mystical about nature. As humans we like to attach some sort of arcane significance to natural laws. why? because we like excitement. Or having expert knowledge over and above the lay-person.

At any rate, 2012 will come and go like any other natural year.

Master_Shake · 03-28-2005, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rawhide

Dr. Banzai is using a laser to vaporize a pineal tumor without damaging the parthogenital plate. A subcutaneous microphone will allow the patient to transmit verbal instructions to his own brain.

Imagine what Dr. Banzai might have accomplished had he the chance to consult the mystical I-Ching.

03-28-2005, 01:14 PM

Here's an explanation as to how the TimeWave is constructed

http://www.levity.com/eschaton/waveexplain.html

Master_Shake · 03-28-2005, 01:26 PM

Which is more likely?

TimeCube:

TimeWave:

CSflim · 03-29-2005, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notamongoose

The idea of the position of planets affecting us as humans had always seemed to me to be a ridiculous one. I began to realise it might be true when reading about 2012, but the clincher for me was a book by Sir Roger Penrose, "Shadows of the Mind". In it, he presents a candidate for the source of consciousness within the human mind: "large-scale quantum-coherent behaviour occurring within the microtubules of the cytoskeletons of neurons". The microtubules exhibit quantam computing behaviour, and, crucially, their structure is so fine that minute gravitational changes during their creation, such as the alignment of planets, can have an effect.

A fat person standing next to you has a much, much greater gravitiational effect on you than any of the stars or planets (excluding earth of course).

Dbass · 03-29-2005, 10:54 AM

I'm actually somewhat curious as to whether there is evidence from the field of astronomy that would indicate that the planets will align on that date. Now of course, I don't expect any alignment to be a recognizable pattern to the average philosopher or lay-man. But just as a larf, I'd really like to see if maybe there's a straight line going at any point during that day? I'm sure they could project that. Someone get on it!

CSflim · 03-29-2005, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Shake

Which is more likely?

TimeCube:

TimeWave:

You are educated, stupid! Corner god nonexistent. Educators are teaching you Evil Cubelessness. Educators cannot allow Time Cube to be known!

I'm going to have to go with TimeCube, stupid!

tecoyah · 03-29-2005, 12:27 PM

We border on the need to move this to paranoia after all...heh

Master_Shake · 03-29-2005, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSfilm

You are educated, stupid! Corner god nonexistent. Educators are teaching you Evil Cubelessness. Educators cannot allow Time Cube to be known!

But the great Alex Chiu uses the I-Ching, and he says:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Chiu

How cheap is air? Air is priceless. Without air, we cannot survive.
If air is priceless, why don't we make our food priceless? If food becomes priceless, people no longer need to work 8 hours a day like slaves.

So in the future, farming will be done in high tech sky scrapers. This 80 stories high sky scraper is a giant robotic farm house. >>>
Everything will be fully automatic. Robots will farm for humans. The cost of farming will be extremely low. 1 acre of land can produce millions of tons of food each year.

Each year, American farmers spend 7 billion dollars on insect killing chemicals. But once we start farming in the sky scrapers, farming will become indoor. That means they no longer need to spray insect killers. Vegetables will also become cleaner and safer for us to eat.

Master_Shake · 03-29-2005, 01:45 PM

And Alex claims the Messiah will appear before 2010, which puts it right on track for a two year holy war with the great judgment in 2012!!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Chiu

When will the messiah appear?

ANSWER: I believe the messiah will appear before 2010. And here is proof:

The followings are some Chinese prophecies from the book 'Tuey Bei Tu'. This prophecy book has accurately documented Chinese historical events ever since the Tong dynasty. Out of its 60 prophecies, 55 prophecies have already been fulfilled in the order how actual events have occured. There was never a single wrong prediction nor a prediction occured in wrong order until today. This is the most accurate prophecy book of China.

Yakk · 03-29-2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notamongoose

The microtubules exhibit quantam computing behaviour, and, crucially, their structure is so fine that minute gravitational changes during their creation, such as the alignment of planets, can have an effect.

Here is the problem. The effects are so minute that the position of a rock in the room next to the baby will have more effect than the positions of the planets.

Gravity is weak. Like really weak.

Electromagnatism is strong. Like really strong.

Have you ever heard of the rule of 5s?

In any case, if you want to place a large bet that the world will end or change in a specific way in 2012, I'm open to discussing the odds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSFilm

A fat person standing next to you has a much, much greater gravitiational effect on you than any of the stars or planets (excluding earth of course).

Lets work out the math!

Gravitational constant check:
http://google.com/search?q=G*mass+of...f+earth%5E2%29
Ayep, 9.8 m/s^2

Gravitational effect of mars at 1 AU distance:
http://google.com/search?q=G*mass+of...%281+AU%5E2%29

about 2 * 10^-9 m/s^2

Fat man standing 2 meters away:
http://google.com/search?q=G*150+kg%2F%282+m%29%5E2

about 2.5 * 10^-9 m/s^2

Fat man wins! Yay!

However, it isn't much, much. It does show the point: planets are far away. Like really far away. And electromagetic force is strong, like really strong, and really close.

(Oh god, the size of the gravitational forces of nearby fat men is going to lead into "astrology is true, and fat men have as much impact as planets, so we need to arrange the room with the right pattern of fat men to have a happy life! Feng Shui, here we come.")

CSflim · 03-29-2005, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakk

However, it isn't much, much. It does show the point: planets are far away. Like really far away. And electromagetic force is strong, like really strong, and really close.

Ok. Lets say two fat people then?

Quote:

(Oh god, the size of the gravitational forces of nearby fat men is going to lead into "astrology is true, and fat men have as much impact as planets, so we need to arrange the room with the right pattern of fat men to have a happy life! Feng Shui, here we come.")

Hehehe. You're probably right.

TexanAvenger · 03-29-2005, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frogza

Given that this date came from two civilizations who couldn't stand the test of time, I don't think their theory will either. If they could accuratly foretell the outcome of the world or human race, I just think they would have been able to foretell and prevent their own falls.

I think it's dangerous to assume that because something does not last that it is not significant and ultimately pointless. Keep in mind that, eventually, all civilizations will fall and I, for one, would like to think think that contributing to them is all for nothing.

What's more, why is it significant that they did not see their own downfalls? Think of it this way: You're walking down a sidewalk and there's a storefront to your right. A brand new Playstation 13/diamond necklace/attractive model, interesting as hell, is sitting in the window. Your view turns to see this, but you keep moving forward. After all, you can't very well stop; you've got things to do.

BAM! There was a streetlight there the entire time, but you were too busy looking at everything else because the idea of running into a streetlight was the last thing on your mind. You should've seen the pole there, but the fact that you didn't doesn't mean you weren't able to.

Just a point to ponder on.

Lak · 03-29-2005, 04:32 PM

Well, if it IS the end of the world, or the greatest nuclear war, or the revolution of the robots, or even the Rapture, then hey, at least we had Transformers. Fuckin' rock on.
As for the Mayans predicting thier own downfall... weren't they wiped out by the spanish conquistadors for being heretics? I'm fairly sure that the Mayan calender was based solely on solar/astrological events, is it possible to predict something like that using an astrological calender?
I dont claim to be stating facts by the way, its very early in the morning and I'm just running off the top of my head.

- Lak

I have peppermint essence. I've been advised not to drink it but.... it looks pretty tempting.

Notamongoose · 03-29-2005, 04:37 PM

OK I should really have given that planets/gravity thing a bit more thought.

Looks like I'll just have to crawl back into the woodwork with this one. Doesn't seem there's anyone around on the same wavelength in this respect.

Oh well.

I need to do some repeat reading about it. I can't remember where the link with our alien ancestors comes into it.

potifar · 03-29-2005, 04:47 PM

I'm in notamongoose's boat, I'm of the opinion that points two and three are going to be sorta one in the same. Simply a return to the source.

I'll tell ya what, I'm ready for a change.

Notamongoose · 03-29-2005, 06:57 PM

Zen_Tom You link to a very interesting web page (http://www.levity.com/eschaton/twzdemo.html).

But why does it show that we are insignificant? Events in our history resonate with events in galactic history. Maybe the Timewave is human-centric, but this does not make us worthless. If it is universal, would it not be natural to assume that events around the universe also resonate with the same pattern, that there is synchronicity? Neither of these objections you bring up challenge the validity of the timewave.

A personal view, that perhaps superiorrain and potifar might be able to elaborate on, is about the human-centricity of all this. A lot of statistics about our universe suggests that, if there were extra-terrestrial life out there, we'd have noticed by now. But these statistics assume a basically three-dimensional physical universe, with a fourth time dimension. But if, as modern physics almost demands, there are many more dimensions to the universe, then this allows us to look more closely at evidence that there is something else out there that is usually discounted. Sod the SETI project, if there are multiple dimensions, then there could be creatures / consciousnesses that are more aware of them than we are. Maybe they are able to communicate with us on a level we're barely aware of (telepathy / ESP, psychedelic / spiritual visions etc. even god-damn crop circles).
It's thoughts such as these that leads me to think 2. and 3. are likely to happen. Our civilisation and our minds are leading more and more towards the realisation that there is more to the universe than we previously thought. Our scriptures have told us this all along but we were unable to understand. Now science is catching up with the scriptures at an alarming and accelerating rate. The change is upon us (dum dum DUUUUUMMMMM)

I'm rambling so much... I hope I can leave this till tomorrow and not find that the thread has further dissolved into ridiculousness.

It's one thing to not be agreed with, but to be ridiculed by comparison with things like the TimeCube is a bit harsh I think.

kramus · 03-29-2005, 07:52 PM

We are constantly reminding ourselves that we only know enough to tell us that there is so much more to be known. It is also pretty much a given that knowledge fades and is transformed - some things become ridiculous and others get pared down to fit into more sets of evolving knowledge and understanding. One point that I think is worth mentioning is that as a species we have been around for 160 thousand years or more. In that time we have had a lot of very smart people put their heads together over a long period of time. Things like astrology are probably misunderstood or misapplied knowledge systems that used to function when we thought differently. By that I mean that our paradigms were different - not less valid, just different, and applied differently at their remove of aeons from here and now. Now whether or not a particular new idea or system can tally closely with such ephemera as world social upheavals (war and enlightenment and stuff) or with NEO's merging with dear mother Earth, the fact remains that if we can try to understand these echoes from our ancient pool of wisdom we can't lose by it. My 2 cents.

Hain · 03-29-2005, 08:51 PM

Well put Kramus. Now my belief that nothing important will occur.

Is this any different when people believed that the world was to end on the new millenium or back when I was 10 and watched the show Millenium (Yakk, is this your rule of 5's!!!) people believed that the world will end on May 5th, 2005? IT'S COMING! As for this Timewave... I remember the Doctor Who movie where Paul McGann said, "I love you humans, always finding patterns in things that aren't there." If anything this timewave shows correlation to the super consciousness that we tap into.

What man believes his "Random Number Generator" can be influenced by people when they think the number "1" http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=83318? Tell me when you have gotten it to predict the stock market.

I mean, believing what I do, it is interesting, that's a fact. But if it is real? Kurt Vonnegut writes about this as fact, and he makes money of it. Something that I will try doing.

May 5th I will be holding an End-Of-The-World Party and now I have another date to remember to throw one then too. Thank you.

03-30-2005, 05:36 AM

Quote:

But why does it show that we are insignificant?

Because the graph at the top of the page shows the events from after the big bang, where novelty takes a huge hit (there are also 4-5 other big novelty-changing events of a similar size to those of the big-bang (which must have been pretty novel on anyone's scale) - our history on the graph is the last 5mm on the right-hand side of the top graph.

It's only when it's really zoomed in do you get to see the events you are talking about in history - and I mean REALLY zoomed in.

So, given this massive amount of magnification, and the sense of scale you see with the other novelty changing events after the big-bang (which are SO massive, I'd really like to know how and what they relate to) - in comparison to these huge changes, the ups and downs that relate to the part of history that we've been around in don't seem to add up to much at all.

Finally, considering the huge magnification needed to see the events relating to human history, and the fact that the TimeWave supposedly reflects a universal level of 'novelty', then what of the alien races we are going to meet, where are the bumps and spikes from their history? Are they super-imposed on the same TimeWave, one would expect so - if that is the case, then how do we know that the spike that represents Ghandi, or Oprah doesn't actually stand for N'gghanault Zpra'kkha, the great Frangapillian Oracle from Orangijuice IV? Or do aliens not HAVE any history?

Seriously, this is so much nonsense.

03-30-2005, 05:44 AM

I just re-read your post Notamongoose, and the idea of Synchronicity is a valid one to explain why we don't get Oprah and N'gghanault confused.(or at least why it doesn't matter if we do - since their history might be in tune with our own)

I'm still not convinced due to the general sense of scale though. There are 4 events after the big-bang that show drops in 'novelty' of over 7.5million points - while the birth of Christ registers as a change of less than 0.5 - that really doesn't say much for Jesus does it?

03-30-2005, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Seriously, this is so much nonsense.

Or to put it in a better way, it doesn't fit my comfortably safe (and possibly to some, dull and boring) world-view.

bollocks · 03-30-2005, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zen_tom

Or to put it in a better way, it doesn't fit my comfortably safe (and possibly to some, dull and boring) world-view.

I can't imagine how people can settle for a 'comfortably safe' world-view. The whole 'we're just an accident' theory just doesn't fit with my opinion. Just pondering things like the universe, the complexity of the human race/brain, the ancient civilisations and their absolute obsession with areas we shrug off as nonsense convinces me that this whole ride isn't just an accident.

03-30-2005, 07:56 AM

Try looking at it from a point of view other than your own (human) one - try considering how small this planet is, and how much time it's been hanging around in space doing nothing at all. Humanity as we know it (i.e. civilised humanity) has only been around for maybe 5,000, or if you really push the boat out, 10,000 years. Compare that to the age of the planet, the solar-system, our galaxy, or the universe.

We're just not that special - and have had a LONG long time to have been generated by accident. If we were created on purpose, it was by someone who was most definately not in a hurry.

Phage · 03-30-2005, 07:57 AM

I must agree that since philosophy is "Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods," this thread has departed from the category.

As it stands we have little hope of parsing Notamongoose's posts because they are a blather of unorganized thoughts based on ways of thinking with even less logical structure. Perhaps we might start with something small, like what effect alignments of anything can have on human history and expand from there.

03-28-2005, 08:19 AM	#1 (permalink)
Notamongoose Upright Location: Manchester, UK	2012 and all that Hello everybody, I thought I'd dive in at the deep end with my first TFP post. I'd like to bring up the subject of the 21st December, 2012. This is the scheduled end for the ancienct Mayan calender, and also of the timewave encoded in the I Ching. (as suggested by Terrence McKenna, the dates only later noticed to be coinciding). What will happen in 2012? Well I don't think anybody can really put a good answer on that, given that so many different things in the world are changing. Dan S Ward, on his website Halexandria, cites a few possibilities being discussed. "These possibilities include 2012 A.D. as a time for: 1) major changes in human DNA (as in Indigo Children), 2) an enormous leap in Consciousness, 3) dimensional shifts (as in Hyperdimensional Physics and/or Superstrings), 4) the cessation of linear Time, 5) an evolutionary human pinnacle, 6) a huge surge and multiple breakthroughs in technology, 7) the end of Money [Shirley, you jest!], 8) massive genetic mutations [the good news!], 9) a serious, altogether-too-close encounter with a Near-Earth Objects member, 10) and a cosmic alignment of our solar system with the plane of our Galaxy, the Milky Way. The latter represents the end of a 25,920 year cycle -- a cycle based on the Precession of the Equinoxes). " http://www.halexandria.org/dward415.htm If you're not a fan of astrology you won't like this website at all. In fact, anybody with a sceptic streak probably won't like his website. What I'm interested in is what people think of all this. Are there many of you out there who, like me, are waiting in silent anticipation for the rebirth of the human race? Who's scared of the wars that will inevitably come beforehand? I'm anticipating many flat refusals to even discuss the possibility of these prophecies being true, but I'm hoping there may be some who agree in part with my beliefs. Not a Mongoose

03-28-2005, 08:50 AM	#3 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Not really....there is evidence available worthy of discussion should members decide to think on it __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

03-28-2005, 09:46 AM	#7 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	Look, as a Christian, I think the world's going to end eventually. But the fact of the matter is, people have been expecting the imminent end of the world since the beginning of the world, and we're still here. We should probably be ready for it, but to have a specific date? Empirical evidence suggests that any specific date is probably wrong. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

03-28-2005, 12:43 PM	#13 (permalink)
Master_Shake Addict Location: Pennsylvania, USA	And only in the first Buckaroo Banzai movie did he travel across the 8th Dimension. In the as-yet-unfilmed sequel he will go up against the World Crime League. __________________ ------------- You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

03-28-2005, 12:53 PM	#14 (permalink)
superiorrain Psycho Location: London	I thought it is supposed to end this year, i'm not too sure why i say that but i recently spoke to a few people about this and we all agreed that although it was always thought to be 2012, in fact the dates were mixed up, and 2005 is the year of the 'end of the way life is as we know it'. I'll get back with some research to explain it all clearer. As for all those who say it belongs in paranoia you're wrong it belongs in philosophy or here. oh and from the list i punting for 2 and 3 to happen either that or nothing, but if it is 2 and 3 it won't happen to all and thats where i start losing the concept. One thing i do know is that it has nothing to do with time, as that is a man made invention which simply does not exist, again i'm working on an explination of that to. __________________ "The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible." - Arthur C. Clarke

03-28-2005, 08:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	this belongs in Paranoia.

03-28-2005, 09:16 AM	#5 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	Sure, just not my cup of tea I suppose. Predicting the future based on arbitrary positions and conjunctions of planets and stars makes no sense to me, and the idea that the ancient and wise Mayans planned their calendar to 'roll over' in 2012 is akin to me suggesting something exciting will happen when my car odometer rolls over to 10,000. Quite how the structure of DNA might be affected by the position of planets is beyond me also. I don't know what a dimensional shift is, but it might be interesting to discuss in a thread on its own. Apologies for being so initially harsh. Welcome to the TFP Notamongoose, and please excuse my unfriendly manner - we're not all as rude as I am!

03-28-2005, 12:25 PM	#9 (permalink)
runtuff Crazy	Oh come on. Buckaroo Bonzai II might be out by then. Seriously its going to be another day. This belongs in paranoia. By the way didn't we have a recent alignment of the planets and nothing happened. Seems we have had other end of the world "cults" spring up, and die. Thanks for alerting us to the next one in advance actually I'll actually be up on something new for a change so I guess I should say thanks.

03-28-2005, 12:43 PM	#11 (permalink)
frogza Registered User Location: Right Here	Given that this date came from two civilizations who couldn't stand the test of time, I don't think their theory will either. If they could accuratly foretell the outcome of the world or human race, I just think they would have been able to foretell and prevent their own falls.

03-28-2005, 12:43 PM	#12 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	If you analyse something enough, it will begin to fit whatever you want it to fit to. The I-Ching lends itself to dynamic analysis because it blends binary and trinary values and analysis of this type of data always produces chaotic patterns. Likewise tea-leaves, runes and other mumbo-jumbo. The 'facts' you are referring to are not facts at all, but simple cases of data being bent and chosen to fit events. Look at how there is a Timewave, and a 'Revised' TimeWave. If the first one is so good, why does he have to make a revision? To fit the facts presented (and ignored by the original Timewave) by the occurance of WWII. This is bogus pseudo-science being dressed up as fact, and it's simply not believable.

03-28-2005, 12:55 PM	#15 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	Here's a link to a larger-scale analysis of the timewave http://www.levity.com/eschaton/twzdemo.html - that shows how insignificant we are in the big scheme of things. Either the Timewave is human-centric and we are worthless stuff existing at the end of all time, or it is universal, and the things we 'predict' in it are not real because of all the other stuff that's happening in the universe that muddies up the signal, and it's the end of all time. Or maybe, it's just games with numbers.

03-28-2005, 12:57 PM	#16 (permalink)
Janey Junkie Location: Toronto	There is nothing mystical about nature. As humans we like to attach some sort of arcane significance to natural laws. why? because we like excitement. Or having expert knowledge over and above the lay-person. At any rate, 2012 will come and go like any other natural year.

03-28-2005, 01:14 PM	#18 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	Here's an explanation as to how the TimeWave is constructed http://www.levity.com/eschaton/waveexplain.html

03-28-2005, 01:26 PM	#19 (permalink)
Master_Shake Addict Location: Pennsylvania, USA	Which is more likely? TimeCube: TimeWave: __________________ ------------- You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

03-29-2005, 10:54 AM	#21 (permalink)
Dbass Crazy	I'm actually somewhat curious as to whether there is evidence from the field of astronomy that would indicate that the planets will align on that date. Now of course, I don't expect any alignment to be a recognizable pattern to the average philosopher or lay-man. But just as a larf, I'd really like to see if maybe there's a straight line going at any point during that day? I'm sure they could project that. Someone get on it!

03-29-2005, 12:27 PM	#23 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	We border on the need to move this to paranoia after all...heh __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

03-29-2005, 04:32 PM	#29 (permalink)
Lak Insane Location: New Zealand	Well, if it IS the end of the world, or the greatest nuclear war, or the revolution of the robots, or even the Rapture, then hey, at least we had Transformers. Fuckin' rock on. As for the Mayans predicting thier own downfall... weren't they wiped out by the spanish conquistadors for being heretics? I'm fairly sure that the Mayan calender was based solely on solar/astrological events, is it possible to predict something like that using an astrological calender? I dont claim to be stating facts by the way, its very early in the morning and I'm just running off the top of my head. - Lak I have peppermint essence. I've been advised not to drink it but.... it looks pretty tempting. __________________ ignorance really is bliss.

03-29-2005, 04:37 PM	#30 (permalink)
Notamongoose Upright Location: Manchester, UK	OK I should really have given that planets/gravity thing a bit more thought. Looks like I'll just have to crawl back into the woodwork with this one. Doesn't seem there's anyone around on the same wavelength in this respect. Oh well. I need to do some repeat reading about it. I can't remember where the link with our alien ancestors comes into it.

03-29-2005, 04:47 PM	#31 (permalink)
potifar Insane	I'm in notamongoose's boat, I'm of the opinion that points two and three are going to be sorta one in the same. Simply a return to the source. I'll tell ya what, I'm ready for a change.

03-29-2005, 06:57 PM	#32 (permalink)
Notamongoose Upright Location: Manchester, UK	Zen_Tom You link to a very interesting web page (http://www.levity.com/eschaton/twzdemo.html). But why does it show that we are insignificant? Events in our history resonate with events in galactic history. Maybe the Timewave is human-centric, but this does not make us worthless. If it is universal, would it not be natural to assume that events around the universe also resonate with the same pattern, that there is synchronicity? Neither of these objections you bring up challenge the validity of the timewave. A personal view, that perhaps superiorrain and potifar might be able to elaborate on, is about the human-centricity of all this. A lot of statistics about our universe suggests that, if there were extra-terrestrial life out there, we'd have noticed by now. But these statistics assume a basically three-dimensional physical universe, with a fourth time dimension. But if, as modern physics almost demands, there are many more dimensions to the universe, then this allows us to look more closely at evidence that there is something else out there that is usually discounted. Sod the SETI project, if there are multiple dimensions, then there could be creatures / consciousnesses that are more aware of them than we are. Maybe they are able to communicate with us on a level we're barely aware of (telepathy / ESP, psychedelic / spiritual visions etc. even god-damn crop circles). It's thoughts such as these that leads me to think 2. and 3. are likely to happen. Our civilisation and our minds are leading more and more towards the realisation that there is more to the universe than we previously thought. Our scriptures have told us this all along but we were unable to understand. Now science is catching up with the scriptures at an alarming and accelerating rate. The change is upon us (dum dum DUUUUUMMMMM) I'm rambling so much... I hope I can leave this till tomorrow and not find that the thread has further dissolved into ridiculousness. It's one thing to not be agreed with, but to be ridiculed by comparison with things like the TimeCube is a bit harsh I think. __________________ __ I am Not a Mongoose

03-29-2005, 07:52 PM	#33 (permalink)
kramus loving the curves Location: my Lady's manor	We are constantly reminding ourselves that we only know enough to tell us that there is so much more to be known. It is also pretty much a given that knowledge fades and is transformed - some things become ridiculous and others get pared down to fit into more sets of evolving knowledge and understanding. One point that I think is worth mentioning is that as a species we have been around for 160 thousand years or more. In that time we have had a lot of very smart people put their heads together over a long period of time. Things like astrology are probably misunderstood or misapplied knowledge systems that used to function when we thought differently. By that I mean that our paradigms were different - not less valid, just different, and applied differently at their remove of aeons from here and now. Now whether or not a particular new idea or system can tally closely with such ephemera as world social upheavals (war and enlightenment and stuff) or with NEO's merging with dear mother Earth, the fact remains that if we can try to understand these echoes from our ancient pool of wisdom we can't lose by it. My 2 cents. __________________ And now to disengage the clutch of the forebrain ... I'm going with this - if you like artwork visit http://markfineart.ca

03-29-2005, 08:51 PM	#34 (permalink)
Hain has a plan Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere	Well put Kramus. Now my belief that nothing important will occur. Is this any different when people believed that the world was to end on the new millenium or back when I was 10 and watched the show Millenium (Yakk, is this your rule of 5's!!!) people believed that the world will end on May 5th, 2005? IT'S COMING! As for this Timewave... I remember the Doctor Who movie where Paul McGann said, "I love you humans, always finding patterns in things that aren't there." If anything this timewave shows correlation to the super consciousness that we tap into. What man believes his "Random Number Generator" can be influenced by people when they think the number "1" http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=83318? Tell me when you have gotten it to predict the stock market. I mean, believing what I do, it is interesting, that's a fact. But if it is real? Kurt Vonnegut writes about this as fact, and he makes money of it. Something that I will try doing. May 5th I will be holding an End-Of-The-World Party and now I have another date to remember to throw one then too. Thank you. __________________ ////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

03-30-2005, 05:44 AM	#36 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	I just re-read your post Notamongoose, and the idea of Synchronicity is a valid one to explain why we don't get Oprah and N'gghanault confused.(or at least why it doesn't matter if we do - since their history might be in tune with our own) I'm still not convinced due to the general sense of scale though. There are 4 events after the big-bang that show drops in 'novelty' of over 7.5million points - while the birth of Christ registers as a change of less than 0.5 - that really doesn't say much for Jesus does it? Last edited by zen_tom; 03-30-2005 at 05:56 AM..

03-30-2005, 07:56 AM	#39 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	Try looking at it from a point of view other than your own (human) one - try considering how small this planet is, and how much time it's been hanging around in space doing nothing at all. Humanity as we know it (i.e. civilised humanity) has only been around for maybe 5,000, or if you really push the boat out, 10,000 years. Compare that to the age of the planet, the solar-system, our galaxy, or the universe. We're just not that special - and have had a LONG long time to have been generated by accident. If we were created on purpose, it was by someone who was most definately not in a hurry. Last edited by zen_tom; 03-30-2005 at 07:58 AM..

03-30-2005, 07:57 AM	#40 (permalink)
Phage Insane	I must agree that since philosophy is "Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods," this thread has departed from the category. As it stands we have little hope of parsing Notamongoose's posts because they are a blather of unorganized thoughts based on ways of thinking with even less logical structure. Perhaps we might start with something small, like what effect alignments of anything can have on human history and expand from there.