Pain - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

TheFrogel · 02-24-2005, 01:11 PM

"It is cruel to wish pain upon someone, but crueller still to wish for them no pain."

I was thinking about that quote. Is it true? Because there are no guarentees in this world that you will get through it without pain or without problem. But would it be a good thing if you could, truly, get through the world with no adversity or struggle? Something just seems inherantly wrong to me about that, but I can't put my finger on it. Because through pain, you learn and grow. Without pain, there is much you would not experience. But what is the benefit of that experience? We'll die anyway. So what's so great about experience if you're going to lose it? I guess I'm bordering on debating the sanctity of life here, and I don't want to do that. What does everyone else think about that quote?

TheWalkinDude · 02-24-2005, 01:50 PM

Experience is basically learning from our mistakes. So making mistakes that leave us in pain is pretty much neccessary if we're going to grow and develop as individuals.

If you lived your life without ever suffering or struggling I think you couldn't really say you've gained much experience from your life. In the long term, adversity is a major part of what shapes who we are.

MageB420666 · 02-24-2005, 03:36 PM

Well, pain is a driving force behind us all, we go to great lengths to avoid pain(well, most of us do). Think about all the innovations and inventions that have developed solely out of the desire to avoid the pain of hard labor? What about all the medical technologies that have developed in order to prevent the physical pain of being ill or injured and the emotional pain of losing someone to disease or injury. Without pain there is no need to strive to get away from it, there is no striving to make anything better. Pain is the driving force behind human nature.Well, Pain and Greed anyways.
And so by wishing someone to have no pain, you are abondoning them to a realm of nothing, there is no desire to improve, no desire to do anything really, because they would never feel the pain of an experience lost.

abaya · 02-24-2005, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MageB420666

And so by wishing someone to have no pain, you are abondoning them to a realm of nothing, there is no desire to improve, no desire to do anything really, because they would never feel the pain of an experience lost.

Damn, that's good. Having read lots of literature on suffering (mostly to make sense of my own painful experiences), I have to say that pain is the soul's best teacher. And by this I don't necessarily mean physical pain, as I am NOT a masochist. I just feel that there is no other way to learn anything and grow up unless it hurts on the inside and thus helps you understand the bigger picture.

Personally I have a hard time respecting people who take the easy way, and I also don't respect myself when I start slacking on the spiritual/soul/mental (whatever you want to call it) discipline. I think the human mind really needs hard knocks in order to fulfill its full potential, but most people (including me) get pretty damn lazy when things get comfortable. So we all float around half-ass, thinking "this is life, isn't it great?"... and missing what's really out there.

Everyone wants a perfect life, but in the end, what's the point? I become a vegetable without pain... dead inside, despite my outward busy-ness and comfort. Hell maybe I am a masochist. I don't know.

"Life is pain, highness... anyone who tells you differently is selling something." (Dread Pirate Roberts, The Princess Bride)

mojodragon · 02-24-2005, 05:08 PM

Without pain, you are a leper. Outcast unclean!

GetRdone · 02-24-2005, 06:39 PM

If there isnt pain, i dont think there really can be pleasure then. And think about some things that are painful but rewarding with pleasure, like a good workout, a new tattoo or piercing, or even childbirth.

GetRdone · 02-24-2005, 06:40 PM

I wouldnt know about the childbirth part tho, since im a guy.

Painted · 02-24-2005, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWalkinDude

Experience is basically learning from our mistakes. So making mistakes that leave us in pain is pretty much neccessary if we're going to grow and develop as individuals.

If you lived your life without ever suffering or struggling I think you couldn't really say you've gained much experience from your life. In the long term, adversity is a major part of what shapes who we are.

This is not necessarily true, as one learns from both mistakes (ok, so I don't do that) and right ways (ok, so I do that).

For example, fixing a sink faucet, if you manage to fix it on your first attempt, bingo, you've learned how to fix a sink faucet. Even if you read a manual, or someone showed you how to do it, there is still nothing like using your own hands to learn how to do something.

And here's another example: Cooking grilled cheese sandwiches. The first time you try your sandwich falls apart and creates a big mess. You don't know why it did this, but you get a hunch that you need to put something in between the cheese and bread. Bingo, now you've learned from your mistake. You try many things until trying mayonnaise. It successfully holds the sandwich together. Bingo, you've learned from your success/right way.

cierah · 02-24-2005, 07:51 PM

first of all, painted, you put mayo on grilled cheese? Never heard of that. I use butter.
But more to the point... It's always the ppl who have never felt real pain that say 'pain makes you stronger'. Pain does make you stronger, I agree wholeheartidly about that but I think it's funny when someone who has never felt a single ounce of the pain I feel (or of the thousands upon millions of ppl that have more pain than I) claim that pain makes you stronger. I am strong because of my pain and weak because of my strength.

tecoyah · 02-24-2005, 08:37 PM

Read My Sig

loganmule · 02-24-2005, 11:45 PM

I took this quote simply to mean that in the absence of pain, one could not know or appreciate its counterpart. With the exception of Bill Murray's character in Caddyshack and others like him (you'll recall that as a tip, he was promised to receive true enlightenment) we experience life in terms of dualities...happy and sad; hot and cold; good and evil; and so on. I have chronic pain from OA in my knees, and the only knowledge I take from it is that it hurts like hell sometimes, and I could do without it...I also miss getting around a tennis court like I used to. It's both overly simplistic and innacurate to say that life is pain and pain is knowledge (sounds cool to say it though, and I liked the Princess Bride a lot). Knowledge is a function of becoming informed through life experience, which admittedly may include pain, but encompasses much more than that.

pennywise121 · 02-25-2005, 12:27 AM

pardon my playing devil's advocate, but it really seems that there is a general idea of the constructiveness of pain. pain can be the most destructive force in the world, be it physical or mental pain. to me, it is not pain that teaches us, but existence as a perceiving being that teaches us.

if i am wishing pain on someone, or wishing them no pain, i am still acknowledging their existence, and so long as we exist, the ability to learn is present.

maybe it is too late at night for me to be posting here

sorry for my ramblings

flstf · 02-25-2005, 11:05 AM

I can see where lack of some kind of physical pain could be a big problem. You know, stretch that muscle till it breaks, warm that hand over the fire till it burns, etc.. Nervous system feedback in the form of pain keeps us from damaging ourselves in many cases.

Perhaps mental anguish works in the same manner. If we are content then we may be OK with whatever comes our way. However when we are distressed with something we may go to great pains to correct it. I imagine this can also work against the betterment of mankind such as, I am distressed that I don't have absolute power over everyone.

asaris · 02-25-2005, 11:10 AM

I don't think actually feeling pain is a good thing. It may have good results, but it would be better not to feel any pain at all. Perhaps you learn from painful experiences, but it's even better if you don't have to have them in the first place. On the other hand, the ability to feel pain is a very good thing indeed, as flstf points out.

TheFrogel · 02-25-2005, 03:06 PM

Hm, interesting respsonses so far. Heh, lots to read since yesterday. I agree that feeling physical pain in general is a good thing, for the obvious reasons; anyone read that story about the girl who can't feel pain? Her parents have to take such careful care of her. But also, as much as I don't like the band, I sometimes agree with Pennywise's devil advocate view. Why bother with mental anguish? Sure, you learn from it and this learning spares you from future pain, but wouldn't it be better to just not experience that in the first place? heh, I guess my argument is along the lines of "So what if I want to live in a cocoon?" But what's so great about knowledge, anyway? Why is it good to learn, and learn through pain?

But I guess the problem with that is in what Loganmule points out: Without the negative, can you truly appreciate the positive? If I live in my neutral cocoon for years, would it be a happier existance for lack of pain?

chickentribs · 02-26-2005, 04:24 AM

I believe pain is necessary for two reasons... Your endurance to both mental and physical pain will grow with experiences, and as you learn about your capacity to deal with pain, you lose your fear of it. The person who has never left his hometown, for example, has no idea of his ability to weather the unknown storms he may encounter and so he tends to stay close to home.

The second reason is that pain gives you compassion for others and yourself. You have to fight and win your own battles in order to understand others. Ever notice that people who have everything handed to them tend to be pretty unhappy people as a whole? They have no value for themselves (or you) because they haven't had to own difficulty yet.

Pain is the currency you buy character with...

Hain · 02-26-2005, 07:44 PM

Sure... some don't like pain... others do. However without pain one becomes careless and naive. How can one become aware of what happens if there are no damaging consequences for carelessness?
Hypothetical: Think of a hot stove. A careless person that has never experienced physical pain would not know why you don't put you hand near something that is hot. You get burned. Imagine groing up without ever experiencing pain, then having it thrust upon you?
Same thing applies to love, hate, pleasure, and solitude.

MacGuyver · 02-28-2005, 10:53 PM

Pain is the passage of time between different states of knowledge. Pain is something to occupy our mind while our knowledge grows and expands. Pain is weakness leaving the body. Pain is a sign of growing to a higher state of life. Pain is _______ .

Killconey · 03-01-2005, 10:47 AM

Pain is unavoidable, even in a cocoon. If I lay around all day (like I imagine you would in a cocoon), I often get a headache and start to feel off. That is pain. If I get up to do some physical activity to prevent the headache, my muscles are being used and that causes various degrees of pain. If I see the people outside my cocoon having fun that I can't have, I have emotional pain on the inside. If I leave my cocoon to try to hang out with them, then I am risking the pain of rejection and whatever other pains might come along. There is no way to live life without pain.

Master_Shake · 03-01-2005, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chickentribs

The second reason is that pain gives you compassion for others and yourself.

In my experience pain pushes one further and further away from the rest of humanity.

Quote:

Ever notice that people who have everything handed to them tend to be pretty unhappy people as a whole?

That sounds like someone who works hard trying to justify why working hard is a good thing. Working hard is crap, especially when you are only working hard so that others can live off your efforts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killconey

There is no way to live life without pain.

Probably true, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. I don't think pain has a metaphysical component, it's just an evolutionary method to teach people to avoid things. Excessive heat, cold, sharp sticks, etc. Avoid pain all you can.

On a somewhat related note, anyone ever been in a sensory deprivation tank? The complete lack of sensation can be a really cool thing.

Killconey · 03-01-2005, 01:37 PM

I'm not trying to argue that you shouldn't try to avoid pain. I'm simply stating that it will always be there. By all means, avoid as much pain as you can.

Wyckd · 03-01-2005, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFrogel

"It is cruel to wish pain upon someone, but crueller still to wish for them no pain."

who said this?

cierah · 03-02-2005, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Shake

In my experience pain pushes one further and further away from the rest of humanity.

There is nothing more true than that.

TheFrogel · 03-04-2005, 12:54 PM

I'll agree that pain is unavoidable, and although I see what you mean about the cocoon and how even in that you've got pain, I guess I was talking more about a theoretical cocoon where you didn't even know there was pain or others out there having experiences other than yours. But then again, that's completely theoretical, impractical, and thus irrelevent to this discussion; so the cocoon is moot then.

Hm, you really think that pain takese you away from humanity, Master_Shake and cierah? I don't agree, at all. I think that solitary pain might (see Phantom of the Opera), but that is rather uncommon. More common is shared pain, and shared experiences. Combat veterans would do anything for the men they were fighting beside. If I go through some adversity with another person, it brings us closer together, not further apart. It all depends, I think.

Heh, and Killconey: That's what I'm talking about. Should you run and avoid pain at all costs, or take it as it comes and try to learn from it?

As for the quote, I was mulling over the principle for a few days in my head before I posted here. I said it.

Yakk · 03-04-2005, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFrogel

Hm, interesting respsonses so far. Heh, lots to read since yesterday. I agree that feeling physical pain in general is a good thing, for the obvious reasons; anyone read that story about the girl who can't feel pain? Her parents have to take such careful care of her.

http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/c...ty/nopain.html

Quote:

Girl with rare disease doesn't know pain
picture of Ashlyn Blocker

Ashlyn Blocker, 5, must be checked for scrapes and cuts because she cannot feel pain.

PATTERSON, Georgia (AP) -- Ashlyn Blocker's parents and kindergarten teachers all describe her the same way: fearless. So they nervously watch her plunge full-tilt into a childhood deprived of natural alarms.

In the school cafeteria, teachers put ice in 5-year-old Ashlyn's chili. If her lunch is scalding hot, she'll gulp it down anyway.

On the playground, a teacher's aide watches Ashlyn from within 15 feet, keeping her off the jungle gym and giving chase when she runs. If she takes a hard fall, Ashlyn won't cry.

Ashlyn is among a tiny number of people in the world known to have congenital insensitivity to pain with anhidrosis, or CIPA -- a rare genetic disorder that makes her unable to feel pain.

"Some people would say that's a good thing. But no, it's not," says Tara Blocker, Ashlyn's mother. "Pain's there for a reason. It lets your body know something's wrong and it needs to be fixed. I'd give anything for her to feel pain."

The untreatable disease also makes Ashlyn incapable of sensing extreme temperatures -- hot or cold -- disabling her body's ability to cool itself by sweating. Otherwise, her senses are normal.

Ashlyn can feel the texture of nickels and dimes she sorts into piles on her bedroom floor, the heft of the pink backpack she totes to school and the embrace of a hug. She feels hunger cravings for her favorite after-school snack, pickles and strawberry milk.

That's because the genetic mutation that causes CIPA only disrupts the development of the small nerve fibers that carry sensations of pain, heat and cold to the brain.

"There are all kinds of different nerve cells that help us feel different sensations," says Dr. Felicia Axelrod, a professor of pediatrics and neurology at New York University School of Medicine. "You can have one sense removed, just like you can lose your hearing but still smell things."

Number afflicted unknown

Specialists such as Axelrod don't know how many people suffer from CIPA. As director of a treatment center that specializes in CIPA and related disorders, Axelrod has 35 patients with the disease on file. Only 17 of them are from the United States. Japan has the world's only association for CIPA patients. It has 67 members.

In Patterson, a rural town of 800 people in southeast Georgia, John and Tara Blocker had no idea the disorder existed before they took Ashlyn to the doctor for a bloodshot, swollen left eye when she was 8 months old.

The doctor put drops in Ashlyn's eye to stain any particles that might be irritating it. The infant smiled and bounced in her mother's lap while the dye revealed a massive scratch across her cornea.

"They put the dye in her eye and I remember the look of puzzlement on all their faces," Ashlyn's mother says. "She was not phased by it by any means."

Tests by a geneticist led to Ashlyn's diagnosis. To have the disorder, Ashlyn had to inherit two copies of the mutated gene -- one from each parent.

Ashlyn's father, a telephone technician, and mother, who holds a degree in physical education, were largely on their own in learning to cope with their daughter's strange indifference to injury.

Many things they couldn't anticipate. Ashlyn's baby teeth posed big problems. She would chew her lips bloody in her sleep, bite through her tongue while eating, and once even stuck a finger in her mouth and stripped flesh from it.

Family photos reveal a series of these self-inflicted injuries. One picture shows Ashlyn in her Christmas dress, hair neatly coifed, with a swollen lip, missing teeth, puffy eye and athletic tape wrapped around her hands to protect them. She smiles like a little boxer who won a prize bout.

Her first serious injury came at age 3, when she laid her hand on a hot pressure washer in the back yard. Ashlyn's mother found her staring at her red, blistered palm.

"That was a real reality check for me. At that point I realized we're not going to be able to stop all the bad stuff," Tara Blocker says. "She needs a normal life, with limitations."

So when Ashlyn goes to her kindergarten class at Patterson Elementary School, she gets daily check-ups with school nurse Beth Cloud after recess. Cloud and Ashlyn's mother discussed having her wear a helmet on the playground, but decided it would look too odd.

And when teacher's aide Sue Price puts ice in Ashlyn's chili at lunch, her dozen classmates get ice in theirs too.

Infections with no outward symptoms also concern them. They heard of a case where a child with CIPA had appendicitis that went untreated until her appendix burst.

"It's a lot to take in. It opens your eyes to things you wouldn't normally think about," says Tara Blocker. "If she sees blood, she knows to stop. There's only so much you can tell a 5-year-old."

This makes it really clear how physical pain is a good thing, in moderation.

Given that you can be mentally 'damaged' by things that cause you 'mental pain', the same logic applies to mental pain.

Hain · 03-04-2005, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Shake

In my experience pain pushes one further and further away from the rest of humanity.

I'd think similiar pains that people experience will drive them together, not push them apart. The Dust Bowl is a good example, many people lost their land to a single Bank. Now these people are hungry, hot or cold depending on season for they have no housing, and all were migrating to California. And yes, I recently read The Grapes of Wrath.

People are social creatures, nothing will change that. And this nature makes us find way to connect with others, and similiar pains and fears will bring a group together. So as it goes, pain has its ups and downs, but I fell that it is impossible for people to grow up without pain. Like that article Yakk posted, I would like to see how this girl will or even can develop in a world where she has no understandind of fear, pain, and quite likely self preservation. How would she see other people and their actions?

meembo · 03-05-2005, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pennywise121

to me, it is not pain that teaches us, but existence as a perceiving being that teaches us.

I agree with this very much. I would also add "...and defines us also." at the end of pennywise121's quote. Pain (or suffering) is the acute sensation we remember and obviously avoid, but our combinations of pain and every other sensation together is what we share as a species, and is what makes us social and sentient creatures.

cierah · 03-06-2005, 07:52 AM

Intense personal pain drives ppl apart while collective pain (like disasters) force people to band together. Personal pain alienates individuals while collective pain shows ppl that everyone is fundamentally the same. At least that is my experience....

02-24-2005, 01:11 PM	#1 (permalink)
TheFrogel Tilted Location: Pennsylvania	Pain "It is cruel to wish pain upon someone, but crueller still to wish for them no pain." I was thinking about that quote. Is it true? Because there are no guarentees in this world that you will get through it without pain or without problem. But would it be a good thing if you could, truly, get through the world with no adversity or struggle? Something just seems inherantly wrong to me about that, but I can't put my finger on it. Because through pain, you learn and grow. Without pain, there is much you would not experience. But what is the benefit of that experience? We'll die anyway. So what's so great about experience if you're going to lose it? I guess I'm bordering on debating the sanctity of life here, and I don't want to do that. What does everyone else think about that quote?

02-24-2005, 03:36 PM	#3 (permalink)
MageB420666 <Insert wise statement here> Location: Hell if I know	Well, pain is a driving force behind us all, we go to great lengths to avoid pain(well, most of us do). Think about all the innovations and inventions that have developed solely out of the desire to avoid the pain of hard labor? What about all the medical technologies that have developed in order to prevent the physical pain of being ill or injured and the emotional pain of losing someone to disease or injury. Without pain there is no need to strive to get away from it, there is no striving to make anything better. Pain is the driving force behind human nature.Well, Pain and Greed anyways. And so by wishing someone to have no pain, you are abondoning them to a realm of nothing, there is no desire to improve, no desire to do anything really, because they would never feel the pain of an experience lost. __________________ Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

02-24-2005, 06:39 PM	#6 (permalink)
GetRdone Psycho	If there isnt pain, i dont think there really can be pleasure then. And think about some things that are painful but rewarding with pleasure, like a good workout, a new tattoo or piercing, or even childbirth. __________________ Revere Jena Malone.......this is not a suggestion.

02-24-2005, 06:40 PM	#7 (permalink)
GetRdone Psycho	I wouldnt know about the childbirth part tho, since im a guy. __________________ Revere Jena Malone.......this is not a suggestion.

02-24-2005, 08:37 PM	#10 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Read My Sig __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

02-24-2005, 01:50 PM	#2 (permalink)
TheWalkinDude Crazy	Experience is basically learning from our mistakes. So making mistakes that leave us in pain is pretty much neccessary if we're going to grow and develop as individuals. If you lived your life without ever suffering or struggling I think you couldn't really say you've gained much experience from your life. In the long term, adversity is a major part of what shapes who we are.

02-24-2005, 05:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
mojodragon Darth Mojo Location: Right behind you...	Without pain, you are a leper. Outcast unclean!

02-24-2005, 07:51 PM	#9 (permalink)
cierah Crazy Location: Canada	first of all, painted, you put mayo on grilled cheese? Never heard of that. I use butter. But more to the point... It's always the ppl who have never felt real pain that say 'pain makes you stronger'. Pain does make you stronger, I agree wholeheartidly about that but I think it's funny when someone who has never felt a single ounce of the pain I feel (or of the thousands upon millions of ppl that have more pain than I) claim that pain makes you stronger. I am strong because of my pain and weak because of my strength.

02-24-2005, 11:45 PM	#11 (permalink)
loganmule Junkie Location: midwest	I took this quote simply to mean that in the absence of pain, one could not know or appreciate its counterpart. With the exception of Bill Murray's character in Caddyshack and others like him (you'll recall that as a tip, he was promised to receive true enlightenment) we experience life in terms of dualities...happy and sad; hot and cold; good and evil; and so on. I have chronic pain from OA in my knees, and the only knowledge I take from it is that it hurts like hell sometimes, and I could do without it...I also miss getting around a tennis court like I used to. It's both overly simplistic and innacurate to say that life is pain and pain is knowledge (sounds cool to say it though, and I liked the Princess Bride a lot). Knowledge is a function of becoming informed through life experience, which admittedly may include pain, but encompasses much more than that.

02-25-2005, 12:27 AM	#12 (permalink)
pennywise121 Upright Location: Sacramento	pardon my playing devil's advocate, but it really seems that there is a general idea of the constructiveness of pain. pain can be the most destructive force in the world, be it physical or mental pain. to me, it is not pain that teaches us, but existence as a perceiving being that teaches us. if i am wishing pain on someone, or wishing them no pain, i am still acknowledging their existence, and so long as we exist, the ability to learn is present. maybe it is too late at night for me to be posting here sorry for my ramblings

02-25-2005, 11:05 AM	#13 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	I can see where lack of some kind of physical pain could be a big problem. You know, stretch that muscle till it breaks, warm that hand over the fire till it burns, etc.. Nervous system feedback in the form of pain keeps us from damaging ourselves in many cases. Perhaps mental anguish works in the same manner. If we are content then we may be OK with whatever comes our way. However when we are distressed with something we may go to great pains to correct it. I imagine this can also work against the betterment of mankind such as, I am distressed that I don't have absolute power over everyone.

02-25-2005, 11:10 AM	#14 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	I don't think actually feeling pain is a good thing. It may have good results, but it would be better not to feel any pain at all. Perhaps you learn from painful experiences, but it's even better if you don't have to have them in the first place. On the other hand, the ability to feel pain is a very good thing indeed, as flstf points out. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

02-25-2005, 03:06 PM	#15 (permalink)
TheFrogel Tilted Location: Pennsylvania	Hm, interesting respsonses so far. Heh, lots to read since yesterday. I agree that feeling physical pain in general is a good thing, for the obvious reasons; anyone read that story about the girl who can't feel pain? Her parents have to take such careful care of her. But also, as much as I don't like the band, I sometimes agree with Pennywise's devil advocate view. Why bother with mental anguish? Sure, you learn from it and this learning spares you from future pain, but wouldn't it be better to just not experience that in the first place? heh, I guess my argument is along the lines of "So what if I want to live in a cocoon?" But what's so great about knowledge, anyway? Why is it good to learn, and learn through pain? But I guess the problem with that is in what Loganmule points out: Without the negative, can you truly appreciate the positive? If I live in my neutral cocoon for years, would it be a happier existance for lack of pain?

02-26-2005, 04:24 AM	#16 (permalink)
chickentribs Addict Location: Mansion by day/Secret Lair by night	I believe pain is necessary for two reasons... Your endurance to both mental and physical pain will grow with experiences, and as you learn about your capacity to deal with pain, you lose your fear of it. The person who has never left his hometown, for example, has no idea of his ability to weather the unknown storms he may encounter and so he tends to stay close to home. The second reason is that pain gives you compassion for others and yourself. You have to fight and win your own battles in order to understand others. Ever notice that people who have everything handed to them tend to be pretty unhappy people as a whole? They have no value for themselves (or you) because they haven't had to own difficulty yet. Pain is the currency you buy character with... __________________ Oft expectation fails... and most oft there Where most it promises - Shakespeare, W.

02-26-2005, 07:44 PM	#17 (permalink)
Hain has a plan Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere	Sure... some don't like pain... others do. However without pain one becomes careless and naive. How can one become aware of what happens if there are no damaging consequences for carelessness? Hypothetical: Think of a hot stove. A careless person that has never experienced physical pain would not know why you don't put you hand near something that is hot. You get burned. Imagine groing up without ever experiencing pain, then having it thrust upon you? Same thing applies to love, hate, pleasure, and solitude. __________________ ////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\ Last edited by Hain; 02-26-2005 at 07:46 PM.. Reason: As always, spelling.

02-28-2005, 10:53 PM	#18 (permalink)
MacGuyver You're going to have to trust me! Location: Massachusetts	Pain is the passage of time between different states of knowledge. Pain is something to occupy our mind while our knowledge grows and expands. Pain is weakness leaving the body. Pain is a sign of growing to a higher state of life. Pain is _______ . __________________ We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit. ---Aristotle Deeds, not words, shall speak [for] me. ---John Fletcher

03-01-2005, 10:47 AM	#19 (permalink)
Killconey Crazy Location: Various places in the Midwest, all depending on when I'm posting.	Pain is unavoidable, even in a cocoon. If I lay around all day (like I imagine you would in a cocoon), I often get a headache and start to feel off. That is pain. If I get up to do some physical activity to prevent the headache, my muscles are being used and that causes various degrees of pain. If I see the people outside my cocoon having fun that I can't have, I have emotional pain on the inside. If I leave my cocoon to try to hang out with them, then I am risking the pain of rejection and whatever other pains might come along. There is no way to live life without pain. __________________ Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

03-01-2005, 01:37 PM	#21 (permalink)
Killconey Crazy Location: Various places in the Midwest, all depending on when I'm posting.	I'm not trying to argue that you shouldn't try to avoid pain. I'm simply stating that it will always be there. By all means, avoid as much pain as you can. __________________ Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

03-04-2005, 12:54 PM	#24 (permalink)
TheFrogel Tilted Location: Pennsylvania	I'll agree that pain is unavoidable, and although I see what you mean about the cocoon and how even in that you've got pain, I guess I was talking more about a theoretical cocoon where you didn't even know there was pain or others out there having experiences other than yours. But then again, that's completely theoretical, impractical, and thus irrelevent to this discussion; so the cocoon is moot then. Hm, you really think that pain takese you away from humanity, Master_Shake and cierah? I don't agree, at all. I think that solitary pain might (see Phantom of the Opera), but that is rather uncommon. More common is shared pain, and shared experiences. Combat veterans would do anything for the men they were fighting beside. If I go through some adversity with another person, it brings us closer together, not further apart. It all depends, I think. Heh, and Killconey: That's what I'm talking about. Should you run and avoid pain at all costs, or take it as it comes and try to learn from it? As for the quote, I was mulling over the principle for a few days in my head before I posted here. I said it.

03-06-2005, 07:52 AM	#28 (permalink)
cierah Crazy Location: Canada	Intense personal pain drives ppl apart while collective pain (like disasters) force people to band together. Personal pain alienates individuals while collective pain shows ppl that everyone is fundamentally the same. At least that is my experience....