Can God change his mind?
 

This is aimed at people with monotheistic religious beliefs. Myself being nonreligious, I won't answer, but I am very curious as to what you all will have to say.

Do you think god can change his mind? If he could, would he do so, or in his inherent perfection would he already have his mind made up for the rest of time, regardless of the happenings of the physical universe (or does he already know these and exist in all times at once)?

Your thoughts, please...

Didnt vote either but......She's a woman....of course she can change her mind....hell she does it all the freakin time.

*excuse me...gotta go rearange the Pews*

Of course this discussion is very dependent on what you believe the nature of God really is. I am going with the traditional Christian viewpoint.

He could change his mind (omnipotent) but would not need to (omniscient). Because God exists outside of time there is no need for linear decision making; just look at time from start to stop and make a plan/opinion for everything.

The Judeo-Christian God, or God, changed his mind based on the pleadings and intercessions of His followers. For example in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, God wasn't going to destroy the city if there could be found a certain number of righteous men. But Lot pleaded with God and it ended up that God only asked for a couple righteous people in the city for it to be spared.

I'm sure there is another instance where men have pleaded with God and God agreed to relent on his judgment. I just don't have the reference handy.

I don't know if those examples fit with what's being discussed here. I think it shows God changing his mind. It doesn't mean that God isn't all knowing or all powerful, but I think that rather it reaffirms his omnipotence and omniscience.

Of course, both of these examples are from the Bible, which is proven as a historically, scientifically, and geographically acurate text, but I'm sure there are lots of people who will disregard my examples seeing as I used that text.

The problem is, there's very good evidence in the Bible for both Phage and Daoust's points of view. If pressed, I'll say God doesn't change his mind, it just looks like it. Take Hezekiah, whom God was going to kill until Isaiah prayed to God to extend his life. If I have to, I'll explain it by saying that God always knew Isaiah was going to pray, and that He would, "in response", "change his mind". But I'd rather not take a firm view on this if I don't have to.

Being that this is a purely religious discussion, I don't think it would be proper for someone to disregard religious texts as a means of information/debate.

Thanks for your input.

i am agnostic on this...not because i don't care but as i think there is no way to know.

i have a suspicion that God can, and does change God's mind...but i would be terribly hard pressed to justify that assertion beyond saying i thought so.

Can God change his mind?

Look at a platypus...

Yes, I would suspect that God can and does change Its mind. If we were created in Its image, well lots of us are pretty indecisive.

And I am one of those agnostic people that can accept that the universe could have been created in a laboratory in some other universe by high school aliens. The physics are there that show it's possible, not probably though, but possible nonetheless.

Well, it depends on which of the powers two powers that god has as being the dominant power:

Omnipotence: Sure he can change his mind, he has the power to do anything.

Omniscience: No, he can't change his mind because he already knows everything, including his decisions and actions, there is no possible way for him to change his mind, because then he wouldn't have known what he was going to do and therefore wouldn't be omniscient.

I personally don't really have a belief on this, seeing as I have not found/discovered/created the spiritual viewpoint that fits me best, but since knowledge is power, omnipotence must then be based on omniscience, because you have to know everything to be able to change/affect everything, so god cannot change his mind, since his omnipotence is based on his omniscience.

I don't know if the phrasing should be "cannot change his mind" but rather should be "has no reason to change". I think that the meshing of omniscience with free will creates certain situations where it only seems God changes his mind.

I always thought that omniscience was based on omnipotence, e.g. "I am all powerful. I want to know what is going on, and of course I can do that."

what are you trying to say? :lol:

For someone/something to be all powerful(be able to change and affect everything) you have to have knowledge of everything, you cannot directly change/effect something if you don't know, at least, that it is there(although you can indirectly effect it) and to be able to directly effect it in every way, you must know everything about it. And since omnipotence would include being able to directly effect anything/everything, all actions, thoughts, movements, existence, etc., you would have to know about them. But you do not have to be able to effect something to know about it. So you can be omniscient without being omnipotent, but to be omnipotent, you must be omniscient.

So to phrase that simply omnipotence is dependant on omniscience, but omniscience is independant of omnipotence.

Hahahahaha. That made me laugh out loud. I think the acronym is LOL.

I imagine God (or a benevolant, all powerful, all knowing supreme being) would have the foresight - in the truest sense of the word - not to make a mistake, therefore second guessing or correction would be unnecessary. BUT, it is not outside of His (or Her) abilities, as nothing is really outside of God's ability as far as we can understand.

To irate,

first, no offense

second, really look at a platypus. It has a beak and lays eggs... yet its a mammal...and it spends most of it's time underwater... wearing a fur coat... COME ON!
thats at least three

"Some say there is no Devil, only God when he drinks. If God drinks, do you think he gets stoned? Look at a platypus... I think you think he might!" - Robin Williams

And it is poisonous! What other mammals have poison?!

I do not think that you have shown that omnipotence is dependant on omniscience but rather that it is an ability inclusive to being omnipotent. God does not have to be omniscient in order to be omnipotent.

Of course, we are both looking at this from a slightly naive standpoint. There is a question that goes: "Can God make a stone so large that even he cannot lift it?" Of course this is a paradoxical question pitting an unstoppable force against an immovable object, and many people would say that it is unanswerable.

The answer is of course "Yes". The question is not really based around God making rocks, but around God's ability to alter reality and the rules of logic that go along with it. Omnipotence would allow God to both make a rock so large he could not lift it, and be able to lift that rock, without there being a contradiction.

Yes he can change his mind because he is not omniscient. I don't think he is likely to change his mind or if he did, that we would know about it.

Lets start with an omnipotent omniscient being that exists outside of time.

Now, let's look at what 'change your mind' means. It means at one time, you made one decision, and at another time, you made another decision. This really doesn't make sense for a being beyond time.

To a being that exists outside of time, those two 'times' are no different than two 'places'. If a being makes one area hot and another cold, did that mean that being changed her mind?

If such a being was interested in interacting with time-bound beings such as ourselves, and it wanted the time-bound beings to understand, it might appear to behave (locally) in a way that appears time-bound.

As it has been stated earlier, there is evidence in the Bible that the Judeo-Christian God changes his mind. Does this conflict with his omniscience? I personally don't think it does, although it is hard to explain why. Just because you know you are going to change your mind, does that make the change any less real? Slightly reminds me of Minority Report, except their oracles were faulty.

The answer is of course "Yes". The question is not really based around God making rocks, but around God's ability to alter reality and the rules of logic that go along with it. Omnipotence would allow God to both make a rock so large he could not lift it, and be able to lift that rock, without there being a contradiction.[/QUOTE]

Makes my head spin just thinking about it.

god is beyond gender. so there is no 'he' or 'she' viewpoint or question. god is also omniscient, so would not have to change a "mind". god is also omnipotent. therefore if a "mind" required\ to be changed, god could do it. but wouldn't have too....

True. But due to various Western traditions, god is always referred to using the pronoun 'he.' One can't very well call god an 'it,' and saying 'god' all the time is tedious and redundant.

the old testament (particularly the mosaic books) are literally filled with instances in which God's appears to change his mind... for instance, in the genesis narrative about noah it clearly says that God was sorry that he had mad man (chapter 6). this indicates that God didn't fully know what to expect from his creation. however, the genesis narratives are very ancient... they seem to have a style separate from the books of law and prophets.

in the new testament the figure of Christ is portrayed as our advocate before the Holy Father. it seems that we would not need an advocate should God be unable to change his mind. i think this says that God's nature is unchanging... yet his mercy can be entreated. this isn't something the church touches on too often.

I have to go with the God knows all, so doesn't have to change his mind.

But, he knows what is going to happen and he does what he wants. But, us humans were the first beings created with choice. So, he knows what we are going to do, but he lets us make up our own mind. So, really we change our minds while God is constant.

I thought that was the punchline to "Does God have a sense of humor?"

To add something meaningful (?) to the discussion, wouldn't God changing his/her/its mind be indicative of God being incorrect in some way? Doesn't the concept of a fallible God seem...strange?

Nope. Look at it this way; how can humans have free will if God's plan cannot be affected by humans? A recurring theme in the Bible is someone pleading the case of someone else who is clearly guilty of some transgression (e.g. Jesus), which allows forgiveness.

Free will requires that you be able to direct your own actions, and a plan that in unable to be affected would make that impossible. A lot of people have a hard time reconciling free will with omniscience, so I will give an example that contains all these points.

Suppose I am a parent, and there are two children under my care. One of the children has stolen a piece of candy, an action that requires punishment. Being at fault the child is not in a good position to request forgiveness. However, the second child steps forward and pleads the first's case pointing out that he is truly sorry and willing to make amends. With this I am able to "change my mind" and forgive the first child.

Note that I could have known all of those things with a certainty; the theft of the candy before it happened, the fact that the second child would plead the first's case, and my ultimate decision. Omniscience, a plan, and free will are not contradictory.

Uh-huh...

When was that, and where is this proof?

No really, that'd be an interesting read...

I am going to agree with George Carlin when he says that God couldn't be a woman because only a man could make a mess this big! :lol:

I was thinking of the Old Testament too when pondering this question. Obviously, God was not happy with the world he made in the past. He flooded it to fix his 'mistakes'. Let me rephrase, human mistakes. Anyway, He did change his mind about the people that he created and decided to get rid of them. So I think that God can change his mind.

There is no question from Both Scripture and Philosopy that God can and will change his mind if he chooses.

Philosophy: Imageine a huge (Lotsa Squares) and complicated (Lotsa peices) chess game where each player can see 40 to 50 moves in to the future, depending on the choices the other player. (If player one moves his rook to Knight 5 ... well then I'll move this and this and this and this to win the game)

Knowing in advance what moves are available to you is not different than changing your mind depending on what the other guy chooses to do. In simple and clear language. I beleive that God knows the infinite variables, and "adjusts" depending on what we choose to do.

My father says that God adjusts things in order for us to learn from life... and he changes his mind about what is best for us depending on how we choose to live. He is able to use us in many different ways, we are not locked into life but can change and adapt and God will still use us.

From Scripture: Soddom and Gomorrah (already discussed, previous posts) and most interestingly, Jesus before his crucifiction:

He took Peter, James, and John with Him, and He began to be troubled and deeply distressed. Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch." He went a little farther, and fell on the ground, and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him. And He said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will." (Mark 16:33-13)

The presumption is that Christ being the son of God, knew the mind of God (lotsa scriptures back that up) and yet he thought to ask God to change his mind...

According to the Bible (OT) God changed His mind when he promised a miracle to King David. David sinned (murder and adultery) and God rescinded a miracle. Even though I posted that "I don't know" -if you are a hard core bible believer -there's your answer.

Well as a nonbeliever the answer to such a question is irrelevant...

However; to me it seems that the answer must be no. If god is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent then god always knows what is the right thing to do, is always capable of doing that thing, and is compelled to do it. If he were to do otherwise it would surely be in contradiction to one of these three things?

Or perhaps you believe that god is not all three of these things?

If you would read the above posts, you would see that the issue is more complicated than that. Before sinning God was going to give him a miracle, and after he sinned he was not worthy of it. Is that God changing his mind, or rather reacting to the decision of a human with free will?

It can be expected that God will do the right thing, but what if the right thing to do does not remain constant? A human being can change events, and in order to do the right thing God must do something different than what he would have done had that person not made those decisions. In order for free will to have any worth God cannot act preemptively according to sins that have not been made yet, but because he can see into the future he has already made judgements on everything that will happen.

I guess what it comes down to is that God does not change his mind, but will change his reactions in response to what we do. It is not a surprise to God, but prompts a change in actions.

Assuming for a second that God is external and personifiable (which is kind of a silly supposition, but for the sake of argument), of course God can change his mind. I have a historical argument and a theological argument.

Historically, the Jews were God's chosen people. If you accept that Christianity way God's way of chosing new people, then he changed his mind on the Jews. Then, of course, Christians did what people do with religion: Use it to repress, conquer and generally do things directly contrary to the tenets of that religion. So, when God changed his mind again and started up Islam, he used an assumed name. Now, personally, I am pretty sure that if there ever was a God, he changed his mind again and said to hell with the lot of you and left us with the mess we have at the moment, but there's also the argument that he changed his mind a third time and started the Mormon church, though maybe he was just f*cking with them.

Seriously, though, free will implies that humanity can do the unexpected. That being the case, a merciful god might be inclined to change his mind form time to time, particularly when the unexpected violates his dicta but fits his plan better than the expected actions. That would be the theological argument.

Of course, I know I can change my mind, and so can you, and, since we are all of us God, then that's another argument in favor. (It's flip, it's glib, but it's also pretty close to what I believe.)

This reminds me of an old argument.

If God is all-powerful, can he create a boulder so large and heavy that even he cannot move it?

I've often wondered this myself; since God is all-powerful and has set the future he would then know when someone is going to die. If this is true then what is the point of praying for someone who is has a life threatening disease to be healed? If god is going to take them then God will, prayer is irrelevant. If it takes prayer to call God's attention to a situation then this would seem to contradict God being Omnipresent.

Presumably, but I don't believe in God. However, I'm not saying he/she doesn't exist.

However...the devil wears a red dress.

I think that "God" could do anything God wanted to.. Including having a change of mind.. Prehapes though as a supreme being it is somehow neccessary... But then that would be assuming.

Honestly, I wonder why I even bother posting sometimes...

Funny, when I change my mind -I am in fact reacting to something else at least 90% of the time.

If God changes His mind -does it only count if there is no reason for it?

Does it count if when you were reacting to that something, you knew far in advance that it would happen?
I suppose that it really goes back to what you think someone changing their mind is. To me it indicates the time at which someone comes up with a new view of a situation; for God that would have been far before the situation (or any situation) actually came up. If you think changing your mind is just the change in behavior, then of course God would do that.

If god voted in this poll and then later changed "his" mind about the answer, would anybody know, or would the poll simply be eradicated from existence?

Because either God can change his mind, or he knows ahead of time that you will pray and that he will heal in response to that prayer.

This really is a strange question to ask if you are really non-religious, like me, I was surprised that I answered it as well as I did in my previous post...

True, but that is a human failing. God is, by definition, beyond that. as humans, we have to deal with, and interpret God in the best manner that we can: using pronouns, names, ideas, icons, creating religions and forms of worship, strategies/philosophies for accepting or denying God's existance.

But to address the question, I still stand by my earlier statement with respect to God in an absolute sense.

I think that the complexity of the issue derives from our (human) attempts at interpretation. God in God's absoluteness would be as described: Omni - all ...

Originally Posted by aintyoboyfriend
This reminds me of an old argument.

If God is all-powerful, can he create a boulder so large and heavy that even he cannot move it?

why? I thought this was cute and a point worth pondering...


can it happen?

My frustration was because I already mentioned that saying and provided an interpretation; it was an illustration of one of my points. aintyoboyfriend's comment did not contribute anything to the thread other than the message "I didn't really read more than the first post, so I will just sort of poop whatever comes to mind onto the page as a spacer!"

Ahhh.. okay sorry, i thought i read through everything.... so i'm going back over the log...

Before we start discussing God and rocks again, I suggest people check out this thread.

And I Quote

Malachi 3:6
3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

This is of course asuming we are speaking of the Christian God.... dont know about Budda, or any of the other religions gods.

Yes, but passages like that (and there are plenty) can be taken to mean that God is constant, that is, he doesn't change his mind on a whim, that we can trust him, that when he says he's going to do something he means it, that sort of thing. Compare that passage to the passages where God gets angry. Now, if God can get angry, presumably there are times when he is not angry. But that means he changes (goes from not-angry to angry). So passages like Malachi can't simply mean God doesn't change.

Correct. Especially if we are to refer to god as infinite. Anything infinite cannot change and still be defined as infinite because change presupposes a quantitated amount.

Good could not change his mind because what is good would never change. We have to take into consideration goodness itself rather than our interpretation. Also, to quote Genesis in an argument related to Christianity is like using Euthyphro to define ancient greek society.
Anyone in a basic philosophy class has seen this pathetic argument. It fails to take into consideration the basic definition of god, creation, and the order of natural things. I don't think I have to get into specifics because I'm sure most of you that has seen it has noticed obvious flaws.

Who cares if God changes his mind or not? It's beyond our comprehension and ability to reason out, otherwise someone would've figured this out a long time ago. Also, whether or not God changes his mind doesn't change the fact that humans will believe whatever suits their situation best. Belief is a form of adaptation to one's environment, and humans live in a pretty hostile world most of the time.

This is why I have stopped praying, at least with any intent of "changing God's mind." If I pray, it's more like sending an IM to whoever/whatever this god may be... not out of an intent to change anyone's mind, but just to check in and way "What's up, this is where I'm at..." Why would I expect God to change anything for me? Not that I think he's malicious or unjust... quite the opposite. But lots of good, devout people pray all the time for good stuff to happen, or to prevent bad stuff (like a loved one's death)... sometimes it changes, sometimes it doesn't. Such is life. One's belief should not be predicated on the amount that your prayer changes God's mind. :hmm:

As we all have time to sit around and argue about stuff like this, God probably sits up there shaking his head at us and saying "Do something else that's more productive for each other" (or at least do your work, which is what I should be doing right now!). :lol:

In brief: if anyone has a solid answer for any theological question (including myself), I'm pretty suspicious of their source.

Is there an option called "How the hell would I know?"

I suspect that if there was something out there that exerted influence on God -- God wouldn't be God! I think it's mistake try try to get your head all the way around the idea of what God must be. Intellectual answers CANNOT answer these questions. Omniscient? Omnipotent? As far as we know! As a speck in this universe, I don't feel qualified to say.

If God changed "his" mind, then the only way we would know this is by inferring there was a change in our existence and that we expected the change to be from God. I think the question ought to be is if anything we do at all changes our existence vis a vis our relationship to God. I think the answer is no. I believe God gave people freedom of choice, and with that freedom comes an acceptance of our world as it is. I can live with that.

I can't imagine second-guessing the creator of my universe. I'm happy to enjoy what I've got, and to pass it on when I can.

You see....
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time doesn't really exist....

sargon,
That's brilliant, but then the question becomes, can anyone change their mind?

Yes....we can

Time is like a good way to watch all the decisions you've already made in an interesting and captivating way. Changing your mind, free will, and decision making are like the eye candy of time. So it's like time candy.

It says in the bible that God is constant.
He's the same yesturday as he is tomorrow. his character doesn't change so I would say no, he doesn't change his mind.

god is an assumption?

Saying there is no God is an assumption aswell

For the purposes of the question, yes. If we were to ask "Is golf a sport?" one of the assumptions would be that golf exists (or else the question would have no meaning). Questioning such an assumption is off topic.

Whew, that's very Buddhist-ee. Meaning it reminds me of some of the philosophies of Buddhism, particularly the Middle Way school and the Mind-Only school. I think it's a very interesting idea, and definitely one worth thinking about. :thumbsup:
Paradox are solved in two ways, logic and a religious understanding. I think you've done both here.

:lol: I guess not all of us read everything before we post. ;)


Upon consideration, I would have to agree that He can change his mind, but has no reason too. He knows everything that will happen before it happens, and so acts accordingly. Of course, sometimes He's sneaky, and makes us THINK He changed his mind...But it's all just a trick to make us poor human's feel like we have a say in what happens.
Just because He knows what we're going to do before we do it doesn't mean we don't have free-will. He knows our future actions, but doesn't change them even if they're "bad."
And if I just said exactly what someone else said already, well...Great mind think alike!

i have a strong doubt of gods existance due to his somewhat changing nature in the bible.in the old testament he was full of wrath,condoned murder,rape and slavery.

old testament :

"The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the Earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the Earth- men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air- for I am grieved that I have made them."
..........Genesis 6:6-7

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
-Deuteronomy 20:10-14

"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money."
-Exodus 21:20

"Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"
-Psalms 137:9

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces..."
-Malachi 2:3

those are pretty bad........lol

but i dont like what the bible has to say about women's right either in the new testament:

"As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."
-1 Corinthians 14:34

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
-Timothy 2:11

come to think of it jesus wasnt exactly a peaceful god,reading his scriptures:

"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."
..........Luke 14:26

"If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."
..........John 15:6

this might be off topic but its one of my favorite quotes

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
- Epicurus

God permits things to happen, since he wants man to have free will. God has a plan for your life, but he permits you to go either way.

God would never change anything, by the whole factor that he is the perfect being, for him to even consider changing his mind, he would no longer be perfect.

Also being that God exists in a domain outside of time (since he created time) there is no way that we can reach a propper conclusion. Our understanding is based on time our minds canot comprehend something that is outside of time, so i call for a close of this thread, cause truly we will never reach a conclusion.

Everything that exits has a creator, God's existance cannot be discussed because he is outside the realm of time, and so this question would fit this same catagory.

Another thing, e cannot comprehend how the mind of God works, all we have is the Bible to guide us, but even then we are only using anthropomorphic language in order to describe something that God is feeling.l

sorry but i disagree

i think the biblical god is man made,due to the authors projecting their emotions into scripture like homophobia,male chauvinism,anger,murder,slavery,incest,love and hate.
with all the authors,much of the bible contradicts itself also btw

shadowaster you stated that everything that exists has a creator,then who created god?

if god is omnipotent,perfect and all knowing:
1.it's illogical to believe that he wouldn't create anything.(he would be perfect,complete have no desires,no emotions and have no need to.)
2.perfection can't create imperfection(if something is perfect nothing imperfect can come from it)
3.concerning freewill if god is omnipotent he could have easily created humans with freewill that didn't have the ability to choose evil,but to choose several good options.instead he made us imperfect humans that displease him for making imperfect decisions.
4.god is supposedly omniscient.when he created the universe,he saw the suffering which humans would go through as a result of the sin of those original humans.he heard the screams of the damned,he knew of the supposed eternal suffering.a perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.
5.god is supposed to be a just god,but he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins.clearly this limited offense doesnt warrant the punishment.
6.consider all the people that live in remote regions of the world that have never heard of jesus christ.consider all the people that followed the religion that they werent born into that wasnt christianity.it doesnt matter how just,kind and generous they were during their lifetime.if they don't accept the gospel of jesus they are condemmned.no just god would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions

anyway,thats just my opinion

As I'm sure you're aware, one of the traditional arguments for the existence of God is that everything has to have a cause. But even if the sequence of events in the universe were infinite (ie, there was no starting point), the sequence itself would require a cause. Since we don't just want to go around in circles here, it makes sense to posit a being, such that he is his own cause. Let's call that being God. The short version is that God is his own creator.

Who says perfection can't have desires? God certainly didn't have to create, but he wanted to. But it's not like this made him more perfect.
I'm not even sure this is true. But, even if it is, it still doesn't apply. God created a perfect world. It's us that mucked it up.
Nope. Free will entails that free choices are up to us, not up to God. OTOH, for a more complicated view, check out my thread on Molinism. I'm sure it's around here somewhere.
Eh. I'm not sure what to say about this; as a Christian, I am saddened by the fact that there are some who will go to hell. I know God is saddened as well. But he doesn't force anyone to go to hell, and so I'm not sure what your claim here amounts to.
They might be finite sins, but they're sins against an infinite being. Moreover, it's more the state of one's heart that God considers, and as long as that remains the same, God is justified in keeping you away from him. I've even thought that heaven and hell are the same place, but while the good enjoy God's presence, the evil cannot stand it.
Yeah, yeah. No one knows what happens to these people. God, in his perfect justice, would be right in sending these people to hell, just as he would be right in sending me to hell. But we know that God loves all of mankind, and so it's entirely possible that some of these will be saved. We believe that those who trust in God will be saved; we know that those who reject God will be condemned. But we don't know about those who have never heard the good news, whether because they live in a remote location, or because they were prevented from hearing because of events in their own life.

perfection wouldnt have desires or emotion.it would be whole whole and complete in itself

you call this world perfect?especially Christianity that condems all homosexuals that were born that way?

as far as god creating imperfect people and sentencing them to hell for finite sins for infinity,just doesnt pan out.doesnt sound too loving to me

what really gets me is that belief is held more highly than actions

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

that scripture pretty well sums up about what happens to all the people that live in remote regions of the world that have never heard of jesus christ,etc.

i wouldnt exactly call Christianity "good news" by any means,the atrocities committed in the name of religion i find disgusting.

Most of your post just shows you don't really understand Christianity and don't really want to. But I feel bound to say that I never said the world was perfect, only that it was created perfect.

i find your assumptions to be quite wrong,considering at one time i was a Christian.

the world isnt and never was perfect,man wrote the bible,man created god,and man is prone to mistakes and myths and tall tales.

I would say 'yes' he can change his mind, but he wont make changes purely because he can. In my interpretations, god IS a constant for us as his children. The ultimate parent.

We pray for understanding, not for him to change his mind.

For all the bad that happens, he has given us free will, and Satan has more influence over us than God can at the moment. God has entrusted us to make the choice - therefore he cannot interject and change anything. This would contradict the reason why Satan was given rights for a period of time.

We have available, everywhere you look, the tools and the knowledge to make our decisions. God has allowed us to make our own choices.

I'm working on a more detailed response, but my computer isn't cooperating. For a short answer: prove it, prove it, prove it, that's why we need Christianity and prove that this is relevant to Christianity.

A little more on that last statement. Why is it that man is prone to myths and tall tales? Is is because we seek a totalizing framework to make sense of our experiences, or is it because we have some sort of primordial awareness of a reality which escapes our five sense? What evidence do you have for one over the other?

I'll restate this, since God dwells in a realm outside of time, we cannot comprehend what he is, how he came to be, and he's emotions. We can try to make sense out of his actions using anthropomorphic language (which is using humanic terms to try to describe something that is not to our level of understanding). Since our thought process dweels in the realm of time, we cannot comprehend God. (let that be that)

and one more thing, since man is imperfect everything he makes is imperfect saying that, we can conclude that man could not have written the Bible, since there are no contradictions and no lies in it. absolutely no mistakes. And if you can tell me a mistake, I'll see if your right, and if your right , I'll stop being a christian. Disprove the Bible and I'll let go of my faith.

Well, I promised a longer post, and here it is. I've actually argued against some of these points in my first post, which you didn't really argue against (statements are not arguments), so if there's some repetition, you'll forgive me, I'm sure.

Why? We certainly teach that God is whole and complete in Himself, but why does this entail that he can't create? We teach that he freely creates; he didn't have to create, and wouldn't be less perfect if he hadn't created. But the availability of choice doesn't imply imperfection. There is more than one way to be perfect.

The Christian stance on homosexuality varies quite a bit. To the best of my knowledge, most denominations teach that, if homosexuality is an innate trait (and AFAIK, this is still an open discussion), it is not a condemnable offense. This is certainly the teaching of my denomination, that while it is not a sin to *be* a homosexual, it is a sin to perform homosexual actions. As it stands, I happen to agree with my denomination. I'm not condemning homosexuals, even 'active' homosexuals. Lord knows I've committed worse sins myself, and it must be a hard temptation to deal with. But, even though other interpretations are possible, it seems to me to be the clear teaching of scripture that homosexuals actions are wrong.

As far as the world being perfect, of course I don't think it's perfect. If it were perfect, I'd be making far more money than I am now :D. It was created perfect, but free will, etc. There's been plenty of ink spilled on this already, so I don't feel like I have to go into detail here.

As I mentioned before, God didn't create imperfect people. But more importantly, there are a few mistakes here, and these two statements are closely connected. It is indeed true that Christianity holds belief more highly than actions? Why is that? Because Christianity teaches that all of us would be condemned if we were judged by our actions. But it's not really true that it's through belief that we are saved, not if by belief you mean "Intellectual assent to a proposition". As James writes "You believe that there is one God - Good! Even the demons believe that, and shudder." When the scripture talks about believing in God and Jesus, it means far more to trust in them than anything else. What does this mean? Well, it means that anyone who is in hell is there by their own choice. If they were to turn to God for salvation, they would be saved.

@asaris
imo man is prone to myths and tall tales to try and explain things he cant,also to control people by claiming that these ideas are directly from god.
its been going on as long as time has existed,with the greeks,the aztecs,and the mayans are just a few prime examples.
there's nothing devine about setting up a system to control people based on contrived miracles and stories.

concerning free will god punishes us or rewards us based on our actions.also,god is all-knowing(and all-powerful,for what it's worth).So God already knows how we're going to act.therefore,we don't really have free will,since God has pre-determined our choices.therefore,it is wrong for God to punish us for bad choices.
there is no way he could punish us for making bad decisions that he knew millenia before we were born that we would be making.(although the bible teaches that he does)

your speaking of demons makes me laugh,sorry but thats a really outdated term imo.satan is nothing more than a fictional scape goat for individuals not wanting to take responsibility for their own irresponsible behavior.

for what its worth,i dont believe in satan,goblins,angels,santa claus or anything on that level.........i quickly grew out of that.

I've mentioned this before, and I'll mention this again, but statements like this are unhelpful and extremely condescending. There are certainly people who lose their faith as they grow up, but then again, there are people who come to faith as they grow up. To say one or the other stance is more 'mature' than the other, without offering any evidence for the claim, is just dumb. I'd respond to the rest of your post, but I didn't see any arguments, so it's not really worth my time.

i never said i was more mature,i just stated that i quickly grew out of my desire to believe in fictional characters.if you believe in angels and satan,why not stretch it to include goblins and pink unicorns?speaking of proof if you believe in angels please show me your evidence,otherwise i will find your perspective flawed to the extreme.

most people are born in to their religion,taking up what their family has believed in for years without questioning and forced fed dogma at an early age,although there are some people that arent.they are in the minority though

Most theologians have held that the will of God is immutable (entirely unchangeable). First, it is worth noting that to change one's mind is one thing, and to want certain things to change is an entirely different matter.

On the other hand, I would have changed my mind if I wanted what before I had not; or cease to will what I had willed before. However, this only happens if I have either a change in my knowledge or in myself. If I know that eating something is bad for me, I no longer want to eat it. Similarly, I want to eat, and then when I'm done I don't want to eat. In either case, something changed in me.

But since God knows everything, and he (assumedly) isn't changeable, then neither of these applies.

Saying that an individual needs a certain set of beliefs to get into heaven needs a bit of nuance to it. Although according to Christians Baptism is necessary for salvation, that does not mean a ritual in a church is necessary. Perhaps the best example is that of the good thief in the Gospel, who reforms his life. These actions are what brings the person to God.

thats a major side stepping maneuver,and still doesnt explain why someone that's never heard the gospels and accepted jesus christ as their lord and savior isnt getting into (what i call this fictional) heaven.

i truly expected more people to put "perhaps / don't know" because, honestly, who is in a position to assert that they know what can happen in the mind of god? the debate about whether there even is a god is perpetual; i wouldn't feel even less comfortable trying to say what god is capable of doing.

The Christian god, by definition can not make a mistake and would have no need to change his mind. By default anything that looked like a change of heart would only be for your benefit, as he had always planned to do that anyways.

I've always been more fond a the ancient Greek Gods behaving more like spoiled children, I think in the end it is a better explanation of the world even if believing in them is akin to Ptolemaic astronomy.

Wait a minute... SCIENTIFICALLY accurate? Please tell me how anything in the Bible has been "scientifically" proven, and by whom.

-Mikey

I like how now people are using 'scientifically proven' as a basis for the Bible's accuracy, but when anything that contradicts the Bible is scientifically proven it's just heathen mumbo jumbo.

I think that religion has a great deal to learn from science, but I also feel that a creator of the universe is far more powerful and comprehensive that I can ever imagine. Trying to use my intellect to prove or disprove the validity of faith or religion is child-like. I wish people would have the humilty to admit the vast universe of things we don't understand, and thus concentrate solely on what the universe means to themselves, and nothing more. If we ourselve as humans make mistakes, it's laughable (and incredibly vain) that we debate whether God make mistakes.