Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Philosophy


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-17-2004, 05:06 PM   #1 (permalink)
Banned
 
Why is the Bible so vague ambiguous

wouldn't it be easier if it was in greater detail of how life was created, instead of having people to interpret things like whether the 6 days of creation were really 24 hour 'days' or what
coash is offline  
Old 11-17-2004, 05:54 PM   #2 (permalink)
pow!
 
clavus's Avatar
 
Location: NorCal
Look, nobody sat down and wrote the Bible. It is collection of stories, accounts documents, letters and records that accumulated over hundreds of years. Some of these pieces existed verbally for many years before they were written down. They were translated and re-translated. And there are different versions of every book in the Bible.

In fact, what you see in the Bible is basically a “best guess” at what Christianity’s principle documents should be.

When Constantine and friends decided what version of Genesis to use, they were looking at hundreds of creation stories. Each was accepted by a group of Christians (and/or Jews) already. They couldn’t ALL be right. So they did the best they could.

Genesis Ch 1 and Gen Ch2 contradict each other, making a literal translation difficult at best.

Christianity is a philosophically messy religion. If you want something more black and white, turn to the Book of Mormon. It was originally written in English, and there aren’t too many different versions of it.
__________________
Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.
clavus is offline  
Old 11-17-2004, 06:28 PM   #3 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Probably been posted a million times before but:
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...adictions.html

Anyway.
The bible is just a bunch of stories strung loosely together. If you ask me, most of it's myth..but..whatever.
__________________
You don't like my point of view..but im insane
Cowman is offline  
Old 11-17-2004, 08:36 PM   #4 (permalink)
Human
 
SecretMethod70's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Chicago
The Bible is vague and ambiguous because it is not an instruction book nor was it ever intended to be. The concept of history DIDN'T exist when most of the Biblical stories were first passed down from generation to generation, and it BARELY existed when the New Testament stories were written. Literature had little to no focus on history or literal acuracy and almost complete focus on general messages.

The Bible is not a book that tells you "how to get into Heaven" and it is not a book that gives clear cut ways to live your life. It is a collection of (mostly mythological - i.e. not historically accurate) stories which represent humanity's relationship to God in one way or another. The minute one starts to look at it as more than that is when you start running into trouble.
__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling
SecretMethod70 is offline  
Old 11-17-2004, 09:40 PM   #5 (permalink)
Cracking the Whip
 
Lebell's Avatar
 
Location: Sexymama's arms...
Has anyone mentioned yet that the Bible is just a collection of stories that were written down from oral history?
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!
Lebell is offline  
Old 11-17-2004, 10:18 PM   #6 (permalink)
MSD
The sky calls to us ...
 
MSD's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: CT
The vagueness doesn't bother me. I just take the part where Jesus said "Do unto others ..." and "Love thy neighbor ..." and completely ignore whether or not it's divine word or just the preaching of a guy who was way ahead of his time, and ignore the other few thousand pages. If the way I was taught/indoctrinated as a child is right, doing good sohuld be enough for me anyway, so even if I'm wrong, I'm still on the right path.
MSD is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 06:31 AM   #7 (permalink)
Getting it.
 
Charlatan's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebell
Has anyone mentioned yet that the Bible is just a collection of stories that were written down from oral history?
I don't know but did you guys know that the bible is just a collection of stories that were written down from oral history?
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke
Charlatan is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 06:47 AM   #8 (permalink)
zen_tom
Guest
 
Why does this forum keep coming back to discussions on Christian religious doctrine? Shouldn't we get a Tilted Theology forum going and get this sort of stuff moved over there? Either you believe, or you don't. If you do, then you do and if not then you don't. Or how about, just to make it moderately interesting, we try and post viewpoints that are as different from what we believe as possible, and try and justify those? It might be more exciting that way.
 
Old 11-18-2004, 07:08 AM   #9 (permalink)
zen_tom
Guest
 
Anyway, my take on the question is that if it wasn't so vague, it wouldn't have survived for so long - it is its very ambiguity that makes it flexible enough to withstand critisism.
 
Old 11-18-2004, 07:13 AM   #10 (permalink)
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
 
Bill O'Rights's Avatar
 
Location: In the dust of the archives
I wouldn't get worked up into a lather over it. The Bible is replete with inaccuracies and contradictions. It is, after all, just a collection of stories that were written down from oral history.
__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.
Bill O'Rights is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 07:21 AM   #11 (permalink)
zen_tom
Guest
 
Oh yes, I forgot
 
Old 11-18-2004, 07:32 AM   #12 (permalink)
Cracking the Whip
 
Lebell's Avatar
 
Location: Sexymama's arms...
On a serious note, I am often presented with this problem by those on both ends of the belief spectrum, since it seems that as a moderate Episcopalian, I 'pick and choose' what I believe.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

While I acknowledge how the Bible was assembled over the centuries, there ARE truths to be found in it.

Central to these truths is the teachings of Jesus.

But even these are written down stories from oral history

Still, I believe that there is a central tenet that He very likely said: Love God with your whole heart and love your neighbors as yourselves. From these the rest of the Law derives.

And thus has been the test I use when looking at Bible and deciding what to follow.

(For example, it is why I am in support of Gay marriage even when the old testament and Paul speak out against homosexuality.)
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!
Lebell is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 08:23 AM   #13 (permalink)
whosoever
 
martinguerre's Avatar
 
Location: New England
honestly, i don't think humans function well with rule books. we either let them replace our thinking and mindlessly insist on the rules, or we spend all our time trying to outthink them and find loopholes. Or, a combination of the two. When applied to theology, that behavior is heresy, a combination of legalism or biblicism.

The bible is a recorded story of a faith community over generations...and there's a lot there. It's not supposed to be neat or easy. It's supposed to give you enough room to argue with it, agree with it, be comforted, be enraged, be assured, and be provoked. THe zen tradition has a line i think works:

"...a monk has what he believes is a breakthrough: a glimpse of nirvana, the Buddhamind, the big pay-off. Reporting the experience to his master, however, he is informed that what has happened is par for the course, nothing special, maybe even damaging to his pursuit. And then the master gives the student dismaying advice: If you meet the Buddha, he says, kill him.

Why kill the Buddha? Because the Buddha you meet is not the true Buddha, but an expression of your longing. If this Buddha is not killed he will only stand in your way. "

If you find yourself agreeing with the whole of scripture, you're reading it wrong.
__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16
martinguerre is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 04:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
Crazy
 
While I dont agree that the bible is the all encompassing answer to everything, there are 'good' values to be learned from it.. just like most any other relgion.

As for http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...adictions.html .. seems like some random anal guy has enough time to read through the bible without any prior knowledge and pick out details written by different people that were contradictory. ( Laws and tones changed from old to new testament incomparably - he made a few arguments comparing them )
Ruse is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 04:38 PM   #15 (permalink)
can't help but laugh
 
irateplatypus's Avatar
 
Location: dar al-harb
you've all got to understand that the bible is a collection of stories written down from oral history.

/irresistible overkill

yes, some of the bible is myth... my understanding of biblical context leads me to believe that it wasn't intended to be anything else. for instance, the genesis myth doesn't really seem to speak to the actual mechanics of how the universe was created... but it does address it's purpose and creator.

for those who have read C.S. Lewis, you may have run across his "true myth" arguments. i'm unsure if he made that argument first or even best, but i found the idea compelling.
__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill
irateplatypus is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 04:59 PM   #16 (permalink)
Mad Philosopher
 
asaris's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
For the interested, I went through a list of these cowman's 'contradictions' here .
__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche
asaris is offline  
Old 11-19-2004, 05:54 PM   #17 (permalink)
Upright
 
Believe it or not the idea of reading Genesis literally was an Enlightenment era problem tied predominately with the linking of the biblical story to a the foreign element of Aristotilian scientific method.

The Bible is a spiritual book, not a history (as has been mentioned). That doesn't mean there's no history in it, but rather than each book has to be understood on its own terms. The Bible is fundamentally a library. As any good speech about any real point contains events anecdotal, parabolic, and literal, so does the bible.

Believe it or not early Christians dwelled very infrequently on apologizing for the "historicity" of their religion. Origen, a very significant Alexandria Christian thinker in the 3rd century, had a very low opinion of people who insisted on literal versions of many biblical stories. He considered them crazy and out of touch with the oldest Christian traditions.
Aribaderche is offline  
Old 11-19-2004, 06:06 PM   #18 (permalink)
Upright
 
by the by: "Constantine and his buddies" didn't "evaluate hundreds of creation stories" and pick one. They accepted the Hebrew Scriptures from the Septuagint as scriptural. The problem with many people is that they know just enough to be hot headed and opinionated and just not enough to have their facts straight.

btw: Just to head off the postmodernists complaints, Gnostic gospels were never a widespread phenomenon in the early Church, much less were their alternate creation myths holding any real weight by the time of the First Ecumenical Council.
Aribaderche is offline  
Old 11-20-2004, 03:00 PM   #19 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
In my opinion, the vague nature is due to the stories coming from a collection of messages....passed down as oral history.
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
tecoyah is offline  
Old 11-21-2004, 12:02 PM   #20 (permalink)
Still searching...
 
madsenj37's Avatar
 
Location: NorCal For Life
You do not and should not take all The Bible's stories literally. They are there to teach lessons and morality. The vagueness allows for it to be more universal and teach general lessons to more people than a very specific story. By being vague it has a more universal application for teaching and entertaining. What clavus said, too.
__________________
"Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not certain about the universe."
-- Albert Einstein
madsenj37 is offline  
 

Tags
ambiguous, bible, vague

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:02 PM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360