Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Philosophy


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-03-2004, 08:27 AM   #1 (permalink)
Addict
 
Master_Shake's Avatar
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Selling Organs

A man was released from prison after paying his fines with the money he received from donating a kidney.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/...s-organ03.html

The story claims that he wasn't paid directly for the organ, but that kind people donated some money to him in a charitable way AFTER he had decided to donate the kidney.

I currently work a shitty job that pays little. I'm going to owe a lot in taxes at the end of the year because I'm paid as an independent contractor and not as a regular employee (so all my taxes are damn near double what I would normally pay). With lots of overtime, before taxes, I can make about $900 a week.

This guy got around $2,500 after donating his kidney. Even assuming he has a week or two of bed rest following the surgery, he still comes out ahead of me, and he doesn't have to put up with corporate work, he can CHILL AND WATCH TV for the two weeks. Plus, he gets really great painkillers for FREE! I have to drink lots and lots of liquor to get to that level of feel-goodedness.

My point is that I would so totally sell a kidney for $2,500. As it is, I won't donate one because I would have to take a week or two off of work and wind up evicted. I understand that nobody wants to create a market in body parts where the poor are denied access to transplants, but let us be honest:

You still need some heavy duty health insurance of some kind to cover these costs. The kind that comes with high paying jobs, not flipping burgers. The rich are already the ones getting the transplants. At least this way communities could rally together to save money and guarantee a kid gets a kidney.

If insurance companies pay for the transplants completely, then the only ones affected by the buying and selling of organs would be insurance companies, not individuals. True, the ins. companies might raise their rates, but for those of us without health insurance, it wouldn't affect us at all.

Poor people would have an additional source of income unrelated to education, race, or social status.

I have sold plasma in the past, and I've considered sperm (but I'd have to drive 200 miles out of the way to do it, so I don't think it's economically feasible). I've never been able to take advantage of the really expensive parts of my body. I mean, what good is that second kidney doing me? Do I really need all that marrow? Think of all the hookers and booze I could get with that money!
__________________
-------------
You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.
Master_Shake is offline  
Old 11-03-2004, 11:33 AM   #2 (permalink)
Banned
 
Zeraph's Avatar
 
Location: The Cosmos
That's a big no go for now. Doesn't matter if insurance companies handle it, it will create a bigger market for it, and inevitably a black market where people are killed for their parts.
Zeraph is offline  
Old 11-03-2004, 11:37 AM   #3 (permalink)
Addict
 
Master_Shake's Avatar
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
But there isn't a black market now? Why would there be a black market then but not now? Isn't there an even greater need for the parts now?

Why would it create a bigger market? There's only a finite number of people who need transplants each year, why would that number increase? The demand would probably go down because the supply would be going up? You can't create a bigger market unless demand goes up.
__________________
-------------
You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.
Master_Shake is offline  
Old 11-03-2004, 11:56 AM   #4 (permalink)
Insane
 
Location: MD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Shake
But there isn't a black market now? Why would there be a black market then but not now? Isn't there an even greater need for the parts now?

Why would it create a bigger market? There's only a finite number of people who need transplants each year, why would that number increase? The demand would probably go down because the supply would be going up? You can't create a bigger market unless demand goes up.
Your logic is correct to some extent, but there are a lot of people who need organs and many that are not expendable. My uncle had to wait a good deal of time for a heart transplant. He ended up getting one from someone who died in a car accident.

Now if payment for organs was legal, it would probably be a good bit easier to slide some organs by that were not apprehended in the proper way to make some money. You would be very surprised what people will do for money.
avhg1 is offline  
Old 11-03-2004, 12:17 PM   #5 (permalink)
Addict
 
Master_Shake's Avatar
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
No, I wouldn't be surprised by what people would do for money. I mean hell, I'd probably do them. But why would it be "easier to slide some organs by that were not apprehended in the proper way"? People want hearts and such right now and they're not getting them.

Why would they kill people if payment was legal, but not kill them while payment is illegal? I don't see a real connection there.

And as to hearts and such, I imagine a reasonable kind of underwritten insurance system could be created, whereby you pay me $200 now, and if I die under the right conditions you get my heart. I also don't see how this would create a greater market in organs since a) people already do this but without the exchange of money, and b)any reason a person might have to kill you for your organs already exists under the current plan of organ donation.
__________________
-------------
You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.
Master_Shake is offline  
Old 11-03-2004, 01:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
zen_tom
Guest
 
There is an argument that says that while people have certain freedoms, someone will always exercise those freedoms for innapropriate purposes (i.e. to obtain cash for booze and pornography) in the mistaken belief that they are getting something for nothing (i.e. they feel they won't have to do any work). To put it another way, someone is always going to take the piss. Examples of this type of behaviour might be drug dealing, petty theft, benefit fraud and or manipulation, begging, scamming, credit-card fraud, spamming and other odeous activities.

Now while it is perfectly within people's rights to act like morons, it is unfortunately often seen as being society's duty to care for those who are least fortunate. We already have to deal with drug-users, alcoholics, sex-pests, gamblers, layabouts, scammers, spammers and gangsters. Why legislate to add one more way for people to ruin their own lives while placing further strain on the obligations of the public?
 
Old 11-03-2004, 01:54 PM   #7 (permalink)
Addict
 
Master_Shake's Avatar
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
"Why legislate to add one more way for people to ruin their own lives while placing further strain on the obligations of the public?"

Actually, we would only have to remove the legislation that currently prevents people from selling their own organs.

And you're assuming that this is a way for people to ruin their own lives. I already ruin my life everyday by wasting it slowly working for the man. Liquor and porn are the only good things in my life. Why do you think they are inappropriate purposes for which I may exercise my freedom? Please, inform me as to what noble purpose should I dedicate my life toward. But in the meantime, why do you want to deny me these simple pleasures? I'm not asking you to support my desires or to participate in them. What possible effect does my organ selling have on your life?

Also, you assume that everyone who chooses to sell his/her organs would immediately turn around and buy booze. I admit that would be my first inclination, but somewhere there must be someone who needs the extra cash to pay for education, housing, medical care of a parent, etc. Why deny them the ability to buy those things just because it fits your paternalistic desire to deny me porn?

And obligations of the public? I'm not asking for a handout or anything from the public. I just want the right to engage in private business. Go ahead, cut me out of the national trust, it hasn't done a whole lot of good for me so far.
__________________
-------------
You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.
Master_Shake is offline  
Old 11-03-2004, 01:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
Submit to me, you know you want to
 
ShaniFaye's Avatar
 
Location: Lilburn, Ga
Maybe its just me, but, I dont know that I'd be a "drinking" person if I gave/sold one of my kidneys
__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!
ShaniFaye is offline  
Old 11-03-2004, 02:10 PM   #9 (permalink)
Addict
 
Master_Shake's Avatar
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
"Maybe its just me, but, I dont know that I'd be a "drinking" person if I gave/sold one of my kidneys"

Well, that's certainly your choice.
__________________
-------------
You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.
Master_Shake is offline  
Old 11-03-2004, 02:12 PM   #10 (permalink)
Submit to me, you know you want to
 
ShaniFaye's Avatar
 
Location: Lilburn, Ga
what would you do if you killed that kidney from alcohol? You'd have to put YOURSELF on a donation need list
__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!
ShaniFaye is offline  
Old 11-03-2004, 02:26 PM   #11 (permalink)
zen_tom
Guest
 
I'm sorry, I didn't mean any offence - I personally love a spot of liquor, and I would never dream of fully expressing my paternalistic desires to deny anyone porn, especially your good self. And there nothing much nobler than the pursuit of simple pleasures, I just want you to be able to enjoy your pleasures as well and for as long, as possible.

OK, first of all, the simplicity argument: Isn't getting a job a healthier and more practical approach to the age-old problem of attaining wealth? And isn't that option already open to all?

Second, the financial point: Loosing an organ is harmful, you will become less healthy than before. Your motive for loosing that organ suggests you are not financially secure. Purposefully increasing your chances of long-term illness in exchange for short term gain (whether you motivation is booze, porn, your beloved aunty Nelly, or little Jimmy's college fees) whilst you are already close to the financial edge is ill advised.
i.e. You are risking becoming permanently unfit for work in order to achieve a short-term, and temporary goal (temporary because your kidney's wont grow back).

The public obligation argument: There are public safety nets that are there to safeguard both individuals who have come across hard-times and society as a whole from the desperation of those individuals. Putting yourself in a position where your continued personal existence might rely on one of those safety nets is obliging the public.

The alternative option argument: If you want money now, why not try some form of loan. There are plenty of places that will lend to someone with a poor credit rating should that be an issue. Your legs may be viewed as security and may be at risk if you do not keep up payments secured upon them, but at least it's not your kidneys eh?
 
Old 11-03-2004, 03:07 PM   #12 (permalink)
Addict
 
Master_Shake's Avatar
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Exactly! And if I needed a kidney I wouldn't have to wait around for one, I'd just buy one.

"OK, first of all, the simplicity argument:"

Healthier: it's my understanding you can live with only one kidney, and you can donate small amounts of bone marrow at a time. Assuming that; then no, getting a job is not healthier. Every job I've ever had, is a soul crushing exercise in creating wealth for the man. I'd like to enjoy my life a little, not subsidize someone else. If health is a holistic thing that includes life enjoyment as well as physical health, then I am probably the sickest bastard I know.

Practical: Absolutely not. As I demonstrated above, even with 2 weeks of bed rest following a kidney donation, I'd still make out more than $700 than 2 weeks of working. And that's two weeks of watching TV on painkillers! I was in a car accident once and had a similar experience. It was the best time of my life!

And don't forget that I'm a spoiled American. $2,500 doesn't mean the same thing to me as it does to some poor shmuck living in a third world hell-hole. $2,500 to me is a month's wages. To a poor shmuck in indochina it might be a significant amount of money.

"Financial:" I am pretty sure you can survive with only one kidney, so I don't think long term health is a factor. And "risking" being permanently unfit for work isn't such a bad thing. I know I would "risk" losing my job making the man rich in exchange for a month's worth of pleasure.

And if I die, so what? I promise you, I'm not smart enough to be the one to develop a cure for cancer, you won't be missing anything. There are plenty of other people who could come into the office tomorrow and fill my desk. You also needn't worry about the monolithic corporation suffering financial problems because I die, they've got plans in place to rape the new guy just like they do me.

"The public obligation argument:"
Fuck the public obligation! When the public starts caring about my desires, then I'll start caring about the public. The public has done its best to make sure that I can't (legally) have access to the really great drugs and experiences I'd like to try. I don't owe them shit. I'm not on welfare or anything, and I'm perfectly content to be forever stricken from the eligibility list as a requirement for participation in such an organs-for-cash scheme. Why would you want to keep me around on a safety net if I'm useless anyway?

"The alternative option argument:"
Well, loansharking is mostly illegal now as far as I know, so that's a different argument. I suppose there are some credit bureaus that will loan you a couple of dollars with exorbitant interest rates, but they expect to be paid back. I'd rather just have the cash and be on my way, thank you very much.
__________________
-------------
You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.
Master_Shake is offline  
Old 11-03-2004, 04:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
zen_tom
Guest
 
Mr Shake, you are almost convincing me. This *may* be my last attempt at a rebuttal. If you can get round this one, then I *might* even change my mind.

The logical/medical argument: Most organs (the ones that might fetch the most readies), once separated from the body quickly become useless if they are not found a suitable host. A suitable host is one who shares (among other things) a similar blood chemistry to the donor organ(I don't know the full details of the science, but I'm under the impression that matches are quite hard to find) The majority of organs that are currently donated after death are left unused and are not considered for transplantation.

This means that the method for which organs are donated becomes important.
You can't just go along to the hospital, look up your organs on a menu and expect to get paid for their extraction.

You would need to first allow the hospital to take down your details onto their files. Now if Mr RichButUnhealthy comes along needing a new kidney, they might find a match, and give you a call. Of course, you might have to wait a year, or a week, or maybe you never get the call.

At the moment of course this type of system does not exist. Families are normally approached first, and failing that, fresh corpses are tested for possible matches. There is no such system for pairing living, un-related people's blood chemistry.

However, let's assume that system is in place, living donors would have to go and sign up, and get their records on file, and perhaps sign an agreement stating that they would be willing to part with various body parts for cash.

The following details would have a huge effect on how the whole system would work. The balance being how many matches are found (lower if the system is a local, Doctor-maintained one with fluid prices) and the amount of cash an organ is likely to generate. There are also issues (already discussed earlier) of unscrupulous individuals taking advantage of the desperate - when you ask why people don't kill others so as to steal their organs, it's because the matching system I have described does not exist. If someone on the organ register is a blood match and that information is leaked to someone with a desire to live, might they not have motive to involve you in a car accident, or a trip down the stairs? This possibility (and it IS only a possibility) wouldn't have existed before the creation of the system that is necessary for this idea to work.

There are other tricky details, like deciding what prices to charge etc which could cause different problems.

I suppose this doesn't add up to a rebuttal, more a request for more detail and information. If you can think of a system that provides enough safeguards, that isn't a lottery, that will deliver working, healthy body-parts from those with too many to those with too few, without causing or risking undue harm or injury and without pricing the poorer members of the community out of the market, then maybe you are onto something. But it sure isn't a matter of popping down to the hospital like it might be for a plasma or sperm donation.
 
Old 11-03-2004, 04:17 PM   #14 (permalink)
Submit to me, you know you want to
 
ShaniFaye's Avatar
 
Location: Lilburn, Ga
How are you going to be able to afford to buy yourself a kidney, if you ruin the ONE you have left, the whole premise of you selling the one you had was to have some extra pocket money?
__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!
ShaniFaye is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 06:22 AM   #15 (permalink)
Addict
 
Master_Shake's Avatar
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
"I'm under the impression that matches are quite hard to find":
That may very well be true, and if my organs aren't in demand, then I guess I don't get paid that month. I'm not demanding money, just the opportunity to sell what I have that I don't need that other people want.

"You can't just go along to the hospital, look up your organs on a menu and expect to get paid for their extraction."
Sure, I understand that there must be someone who wants my organs before I can sell them. That's fine, and I would just have to wait. There's currently a website www.matchingdonors.com that currently tries to match donors and those who need organs. I don't see why a similar system for buyers and sellers couldn't be worked out.

"There are also issues (already discussed earlier) of unscrupulous individuals taking advantage of the desperate"
Yeah, but isn't that pretty much the way society already works? Why do Americans get their clothes made in Thailand? At least this way the people in Thailand could have something really valuable to sell.

"when you ask why people don't kill others so as to steal their organs, it's because the matching system I have described does not exist."
But it must exist in some form, otherwise how would that guy in prison have figured out he could donate his kidney to the other guy? Not all donations come from the dead, many come from the living. They have to be matched somehow, like the above mentioned website. Maybe people are already being killed by the thousands for their organs, but I haven't heard about it.

And murder would still be illegal, of course. Carrying around the internal organs of a man you murdered would be pretty convincing evidence that you were involved in the man's death.

"There are other tricky details, like deciding what prices to charge etc which could cause different problems."
Let the market work itself out. If a kidney is worth $2,500 then I'd sell mine. If it was only worth $2.50, then I probably wouldn't becuase it's a waste of my time. That's all I'm really looking for here, the opportunity to sell these things. I currently have the opportunity to sell lemonade on the sidewalk, but it's not a moneymaker, and I don't find it a satisfying experience, so I'm not going to do it. With organ selling, if it wouldn't make me money or be a satisfying experience, I wouldn't do it. I may be stupid, but I'm not an idiot.

And ShaniFaye:
"How are you going to be able to afford to buy yourself a kidney, if you ruin the ONE you have left, the whole premise of you selling the one you had was to have some extra pocket money?"

I'll sell a lung and buy a kidney. Although I won't be very comfortable, it is possible to live with only one lung. Or a cornea, or an eardrum, or a thymus gland, whatever the hell it is I need to sell to live. And if I've got nothing left to sell, then I guess I die. So what's the problem? At least I had one good month of hookers and booze in Sri Lanka before I went.
__________________
-------------
You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.
Master_Shake is offline  
 

Tags
organs, selling

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:19 PM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360