seep

My position? Pretty much pro-choice all the way, which makes this issue a moot point for me.

Now, I don't agree with unwavering pro-lifers, but it is a consistent position. If life does begin at conception, it makes sense.

Coming from that viewpoint, making a special exception for mothers whose lives are in danger seems like a perfectly defensible position to me.

But opposing abortion except in the case of rape I just don't get. I'm sure it's a situtation that seriously sucks for the mother, to put it mildly, but if abortion is killing a baby, it's still killing a baby no matter how conception occurred.

It seems like a case of wanting to have things both ways. I'm thinking that in the to be a human life and people will back off of their faith in a truly repugnant situation.

thefictionweliv

I disagree with those who would support abortion in the case of rape as well. Say someone shot your brother, would it be just to shoot a member of their family, an innocent in the situation? The child is innocent and therefore should not be a victim.


Just like many pro-life people who waiver must decide when life is justified to be taken.
Many Pro-choice people waiver on when life is life.
Abortion in my opinion is America's genocide, how we can wave the moral banner to the world while it is soaked in our own blood I cannot see.

"Abortion is advocated only by persons who have themselves been born."
-Ronald Reagan

martinguerre

to force a woman to carry a child that she did not consent to...that's making a rape last 9 months long. if you can look a rape survivor in the eye and tell her she can't have her body back...you're welcome to oppose abortion in cases of rape.

tecoyah

-snip-

yet we Morally ignore Sudan, or any number of areas where children die needlessly do to lack of clean water or food. I would prefer to pick a battle I am likely to win.....and accomplish far more.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

lostinlife

I don't really understand the point of all the pro-lifer. What is the point of bring in a child in an unwanted home. If the mother or father don't want the child in thei first place, what are the chances of them giving the child a good life. As for the rape victim, what happen if the child is a boy and look very similar to the rapist. What you telling the mother to do is looking into the face of here rapist everything for a very long time. Sure, you can have the child for adoption, but do anyone here really know how many child is currently in the adoption agency as it is? The amount of children going into the adoption is more than the amount being adopted.

Our world as very crowded as it is, the last thing we need right now is more unwanted life. For all you pro-lifer, unless you are willing to raise these unwanted children, you have no right of telling what other what to do.

thefictionweliv

It is far easier to find a loving home for a child not yet born, as many people feel more like parents if they are able to care for the child from the moment of birth, there are many couples for a variety of reason that would adopt the unborn child.

thefictionweliv

I would also like you to look at the child later in life and tell him he doesn't deserve to live.

lostinlife

What about those that are not so lucky?

gondath

I don't believe in abortion in cases of rape. Abortion should be reserved only for population control. A child never chooses to be born. Thus, a woman should not always have a choice whether to carry to a child or not. The child can be given up for adoption when born if she hates it so much.

lostinlife

As I already stated, our adoption agency is quite full as it is.

Unright

genocide

n : systematic killing of a racial or cultural group [syn: race murder, racial extermination]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

Ahh... The Hyperbolic Pro-Lifers... So viciously and blindly they fight for the "rights" of fetuses until they are actually born. Then the babies have to fend for themselves against uncaring, unfit, unmotivated parent(s).

Life begins at first breath.

MageB420666

I am pro-choice all the way, except for one case, if the mother waits until well into the third trimester, if she waited that long then she should go ahead and have it and put it up for adoption, because by that time the baby is capable of independant life.

Other than that case, a woman should have total control over her body, and until that baby is capable of indendant life, it's part of the woman's body, she should be able to decide if she wants to keep it or not. No one else should be able to make that decision for her.

As far as the rape case goes, the decision should again be left up to the mother, if she decides she can't stand having a child that was forced upon her, she shouldn't be made to go throught the torture of carrying and giving birth to a child caused by rape.

If your opposed to abortion, then don't have abortions, but don't force your choice on other people and ruin their lives just so you can feel a little better when you go to sleep. The entire basis of America is that of freedom of Choice and Idea, Pro-lifers you are free to make your own Choices and have your own Ideas, but so are the Pro-choice advocates.

__________________
Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

thefictionweliv

Soo..if you are opposed to murder don't murder but certainly don't tread in the path of those that do, never. Even if they believe it was right? While you may not have been a direct victim of the crime would you be satisfied if the killer was adament about the choice he made in murdering someone?

I've always been curious what some Pro-Choicers opinions would be if the father adamently wanted to father his child? Would even free the mother of responsibility of it.

thefictionweliv

So quick to judge me as if you know me. I was treated like shit by my father for years, kicked out of the house on numerous occasions. Bad unmotivated parents are a fact of life. But since I was in this situation I guess I had no right to live through it.

Robaggio

Pro-life is physical altruism taken to extreme absurdities. There are far less people whining about contraceptive methods that destroy eggs or sperm. This shouldn't come as a surprise. Lets face it, sperm and eggs don't look like baby humans- who would want to save these ugly things?

The term 'life' as we know it today is merely the bastardized offspring from idealistic/religious extrapolation of it's true meaning. Using the real definition of life, a non-viable organism (something that can't exist on it's own) is not alive. Fetuses are not viable outside the womb and therefore are not alive. By true definition, life begins at first breath.

Interestingly enough, today we have millions of people who are living artificially. Some have machines that breathe for them, some take blood pressure medication, and some require dialysis. But does this mean that these people are not alive because they could not live without forign devices?

Consider this: food is a forign device required by our body to live. If we do not eat food, we die. If someone with diabetes doesn't take insulin, they will die too. To look at this, we must turn back to the definition of life. A viable organism is alive. By viable, we mean "something that can exist on it's own" (it is significant to note that viable can also be used as "something that can produce living offspring"). Basically, 'existing on one's own' encompasses 'means for which to aquire artificial devices'. For example, if an organism can aquire food on it's own, it is alive. By the same hand, if an organism somehow has the means to manipulate another organism to give it food, it is alive. You and I have the means to aquire food: we go to the store and buy it. Babies also have the means to aquire food: they cry, which manipulates it's parents to give it food. Fetuses do not have means to aquire artificial devices for which to live.

If fetuses do not have the means to aquire things to live, then why do adult humans go to such great lengths to care for them? The answer lies in what fetuses are ultimately made to do: turn into a baby. It is known that certain physical characteristics of babies have the ability to stimulate the brain of other humans. With homo sapiens, this stimulation is more profound in females than in males- i.e. the 'motherly instinct'. Because a fetus is a baby-in-progress, it tends to look like a baby; and thus, begins and ends humanity's fascination with saving these non-viable globs of stem cells.

Zoz

I don't believe many pro-choice people would think that abortion is OK in the third trimester... just as they wouldn't agree to killing the baby after birth (in what is often referred to as the fourth trimester)

Rape is a different issue.. While the physical stability of the mother may not be in peril, the mental stabiliity may be... If we are understanding of the physical stability, (ie mother's life is more valuable than unborn baby's life) should we do the same in the case of mental stabililty issues?

Just throwing it out there..

FoolThemAll

As a pro-lifer, I completely agree. I'm opposed to abortion being a legal option in the case of rape. It's simply not a sufficient justification for taking a human life. I say the same for incest and bad genes.

"For the life of the mother" is the only exception that I hold. I consider it a matter of self-defense in that case (regardless of the z/e/f's obviously absent intent to harm).

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

martinguerre

One suffering is immediate and not in dispute. The other is abstract and a matter of philosophical consideration.

There's no way in hell i'd force a woman to bear a child that was concieved in such an act of destruction.

The arguement that says "Yes, that's tragic, but..." or the "two wrongs don't make a right..." They don't make any logical sense... We are not weighing any disputed right to life on the part of the fetus against an empty scale. To force a woman to carry to term a non-consensual pregnacy is to continue her violation for the better part of a year. That's a moral crime, one that easily displaces my concern for a non-viable fetus.

thefictionweliv

Of course this goes back to our perception of the fetus, the whole concept of weather it's life or not is a matter of philosophical consideration.

wnker85

In cases of Rape it should be left up to the mother, but I think we should help her and see if she would allow it to let up for adoption. That would be the best thing in my mind. If she could then the child would be allowed to go out and live. But in no way should it be forced. As this also applies when the baby threatens the life of the mother.

But, in all other cases I think that the child should go to adoption. Let the kid have a chance at life. Abortion shouldn't be brought down to the sense of a condom. Life is more precious than that.

But most of the Pro-Choice people i know are against the death sentance. Go fiqure?

cybersharp

I agree if the mother wishes to have a abortion from rape then she is intitled to do so. And if she dosnt wish to have a abortion then she should be forced to. It seems like plain common sence to me..

__________________
0PtIcAl

hoosier52

I don't know whether the adoption agencies in the U.S. are overflowing or not. Your statement insinuates they are. One thing I do know is that many American couples are going to Russia and Asian countries to find kids to adopt. In light of that, I doubt the supply of adoptable children far exceeds the demand, at least in this (U.S.) country.

Addressing the original question; it is indeed a dilema for the pro-lifer of which I am staunchly one. I lean toward the position that the unborn child is innocent of the sin; so why should he/she have to pay the penalty for someone else's sin. At the same time, I'm sympathetic to the idea expressed by the individual that said the mother shouldn't have to live with the crime for 9 months. Ultimately, I think the question should be between God and the individual; which, I guess makes me (gasp, choke) pro-choice on the question. A dilema indeed!!!

seep

Would you support gas chambers for population control?

gondath

I am referring to keeping the population of the world at its current level. If the time comes when we find out it needs to be scaled back even more, then we can explore other options.

lostinlife

How the hell can you even say many when your statement obviously meant Angelina Jolie. Just cause couple people do it doesn't mean that it is not full. Read some statistical fact then come back and talk.

ARTelevision

To me, abortion is one of the best solutions for most of our social problems. I have always been in favor of this idea of abortion - the more the better.

__________________
create evolution

irateplatypus

my aunt and uncle have adopted two kids... one they had to make a last minute trip to hawaii, the other they had to pick up from some rural province of china. this was after years and years of trying to adopt a kid in their state of california with no success.

i would think my aunt and uncle would be the ideal candidates for adoption (very well off, clean legal history, a very stable marriage etc.) but it took them years to get an adopted kid.

adoption is an option that has a lot more potential in solving problems than it is been giving credit for. i think third trimester abortions should be banned across the board... but make an easy transition for the mother to choose adoption if she wishes.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

thefictionweliv

Damn guy, you considered perhaps getting people fixed after one kid or something like that. If you must have population control there are less brutal options you could support.

thefictionweliv

I think self control and accountability is what we need to have more of.

seep

IMO overpopulation is already a pretty dire problem (even if we're not feeling the full punch as of yet), but I suppose that's another topic.

thefictionweliv

Yes but it does not warrant extreme measures, I would fully understand government regulation of the populations(as long as it is done in an equal manner). I mean we are running out of jobs, eating up natural resources like nothing(not to say my ass sucking power from the plant right now isn't contributing to the problem), so I pretty much think its justifiable.

ARTelevision

thefictionweliv,
Your statement, "I think self control and accountability is what we need to have more of." sounds good.

Unfortunately, given human psychology, those things are not attainable.

__________________
create evolution

Beatlefan58

I've long thought the exception for "rape and incest" to a pro-lifer's stance was cop-out, a way to sound reasonable to those that support abortion on demand. It is totally inconsistent with the basis thesis that an egg and sperm united is life.

As for pro-abortion thought, I've not heard a satisfactory answer to "if the fetus isn't "life", then what it is?"

Beatlefan58

Then why don't we start thinning the existing herd? I say we can start with those that favor abortion rights--the argument for destroying the unborn as a drain on our resources also works with adults, and since life isn't too important to that group, let's wipe them out, see if those left have more of what we need in resources, and if that doesn't work, we can arbitrarily pick out another group for extinction.

The point is, when a person has a say about whether they are executed, normally there is some voiced opposition. Those opposing abortion do so on behalf of those that can't.

Robaggio

Read my above post. Life is a viable organism. Fetuses are not alive, they are "non-viable globs of stem cells" that resemble human babies. Living organisms have the means to aquire things for which to live.

FoolThemAll

I'm thinking Beatlefan doesn't find that answer satisfactory. I've heard it many a time before and I don't.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Ace_O_Spades

I'm 100% pro choice, I support women getting abortions if the pregnancy is unwanted, especially for extreme cases like rape and incest.

I can give dozens of reasons as to why I support my views... And a pro lifer will give dozens of reasons why I'm a murdering lunatic. The fact of the matter is that it is my belief, so don't force your beliefs on me... its a philosophical difference, let it be.

__________________
Feh.

zen_tom

I do think that late abortion is distressing to all those involved and wherever possible should be avoided. Does that sound reasonable to everyone here? Wouldn't it make sense to continue this discussion from some shared point of agreement?

I often notice that the pro-choice people fail to aknowledge the fact that there are so many less painfull and disturbing alternatives to abortion, and as such, can sometimes come across almost eager for doctors to start ripping babies out left, right and centre. Isn't it worth exploring those alternatives and deciding what pro's and cons they might have. Might it be possible to find a solution acceptable to both parties?

FoolThemAll

There are plenty of beliefs that you're more than williing to force on others, unless perhaps if you're an anarchist. That's hardly the deciding factor of the debate.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

thefictionweliv

There will never be a consensus on this. I respect a pro-abortionists unwaivering stance on the issue, however it is not what I believe and I will always support it being outlawed just as I know they will always support choice.

If you were to meet in the middle then a Pro-Life advocate would then be supporting murder and a pro-abortionist would be stripping themselves of rights they feel they deserve. I don't ever expect this issue to be resolved. However everyone has the right to take a stand on the issue.