Simple_Min

http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm

*** If you have not seen the new film, do not read below as I speculate on some plot themes. ***


I think most of you will know what I speak of (The Republic by Plato).

That, to me, seems to be the theme of The Matrix (parts 1 and 2). The Cave is the Matrix and prisoners are the "plugged in" humans. (Though after seeing the second movie, I'm wondering if even the unplugged people aren't plugged in) Also from this it is easy to draw a conclusion about what Matrix: Reloaded was all about and what's real and what's precieved to be a shadow of the real.

Perhaps the "Real World" of The Matrix is a shadow of a true world, but we are only looking at a shadow of a n dimensional world in (n-1) dimensions. Therefore the "Real" is just an distorted manifestation of the "True Real".

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Cynthetiq

interesting thought.

my mind is too wrapped in the intricacies of the movie at the moment, but I will return to this thread once I've been able to formulate a compelling thought.

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Slims

I kept thinking how much the new matrix paralleled Dune. Especially the speach in the cave, and at the end when neo goes into a coma.

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Shadowman

Simple_Min: I totally agree with your thoughts. My first thought of the Matrix: Reloaded as a whole was that the Unplugged people were in fact, in just another matrix. It all got me started with that conversation at the start about what you perceive as real, yada yada. But, I won't go any furthermore, and I shall just accept the movie as it is, as I can hear some friends in the background chanting 'Nerrrrrrrrddddd' :-)

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SecretMethod70

It's been about 5 years since I read Plato's Republic and, ironically, I'm reading some Plato at the moment which led me the think of the same correlation after I saw the second movie.

I think, however, that the philosophy behind Matrix is a bit more complex than that. Now, I haven't read, for example, Simulacra and Simulations, but it's my guess that, being that, from what I understand, it works on the same themes, it, and other philosophical writings like it, are more complex elaborations on the Allegory of the Cave.

Anyway, to apply it to Matrix, I'd say the obvious point that Neo is in the role of the philosopher, taking people out of the cave.

****SPOILER!!!!!!*****



However, if the double Matrix theory is true, then you run into a situation where they are in a cave within a cave. Shadows in the second cave bening caused by artificial lights in the first, and they have yet for a person to discover this in order to show the truth to to thers and set them free.




I envy my nieces for when they grow up and get to watch the movie in philosophy classes

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Conclamo Ludus

I agree with the connection. The beauty of the Matrix is that it marries together an incredible amount of ideas and concepts, all told in an epic story, a la parable. It has biblical concepts, buddhist concepts, Socratic concepts, and it asks a lot of the same questions that theoretical physics attempts to answer, which you nicely pointed out with the n-dimensional theory.

****spoiler****




























I like that they delve into the concepts of ghosts, vampires, and aliens...etc in Reloaded.

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smooth

Or the role of the sociologist .

The relevant works of both Baudrillard (Simulacra) and Marcuse (Repressive Desublimation) are in Social Theory: The Multicultural and Classic Readings ed. Charles Lemert, pages 481 and 433, respectively (now you don't have to read their whole books ). As a bonus Cornel West is also in the book (did you guys spot him in the film?).

Of course, you could also take a trip to Disneyland...

Skettios

I hope this isn't a harbinger of many problems to come. I'm going to unload a little of what I know about Plato, and see if anyone agrees, I might warn that I have a very different take on Plato than you'll see from most people, mainly because I believe that he writes in an esoteric style and doesn't always say what he means or mean what he says.

short answer

First, I do agree with Simple_Min in that Neo plays the role of the philosopher, freeing people from a cave. That agreement comes fairly easily.

long answer

I might possible differ with this thread when you ask the question, is what Neo freeing people from in the Matrix, the same as what Socrates frees the people of in the Republic?

My answer would be no. Neo frees people from their captors, while in Socrates case, the captors and the slaves are often one and the same. By this I mean that the "Cave", is Socrates representation of a certain kind of ignorance that men posess that is harmful to them. This ignorance is the idea that men think they know much, when they know very little indeed. The conversations of the prisoners would be similar to the animated converstations of children. Have you ever heard a child with an incorrect piece of knowledge, impress that knowledge on others, and convert them to his way of thought? This would be the role of the puppetteers, in Socrates day, the Sophists, who claimed to understand philosophy, but really only made matters more confusing for those seeking the truth. The role of a philosopher, is to refute these beliefs, and try to get the prisoners to break their own chains, once these chains are broken, they can at least see what they are talking about, the veil of their ignorance is broken. The next step is for them to find their way out into the light, or philosophy, no one can be lead there, they have to make it themselves.

I'll give an example, in the Gorgias, Socrates expresses the supermoralist idea to Callicles, that suffering justice is bad, but committing injustice is worse. He also states that punishment can restore a man's attachment to normal virtue. With this in mind, we should turn in our friends, so that they can be made healthy, and allow our enemies to continue committing injustice.

Obviously no one really believes this, it's part of a refutation that is intended to make the listener think about the role of justice in our lives, and that thinking is the first step to realizing we don't know all that we think we know. Once we have admitted that to ourselves, we are prepared to take the first step towards real philosophy.

So with that long explanation in mind, I would suggest that metaphorically, Neo is a philosopher, he has some knowledge, and understands that he doesn't know everything. I would also say that the imagery fits, but not necessary the allegory. If tables were turned, and Socrates were Neo, he would point out the flaws and glitches in the matrix, but would leave people to find their own way out. Kind of a sum' bitch when you think about it.

So with that lengthy post, I have to conclude that I agree with Simple_Min in that the Matrix does reach toward the Cave Allegory.

I also think that the post about the cave at the beginning is a little misleading. I don't think that Plato is trying to get us to buy his theory on the forms. I know that the Cave and the World of the Forms gets shoved together all the time, my response to that would be remember that the cave allegory comes at the end of The Republic. While many people have read the cave allegory, few have sat down and read the whole of the Republic. For those of you who haven't, I'll explain the two things I think it tries to accomplish. It wants to get you thinking about justice, specifically political justice. It's other goal is to explain the role of the philosopher in the political regime. Therefore, the cave allegory to me, isn't Plato pushing his forms argument, it's Socrates explaining his role as I have above.

I guess that's another parallel between Socrates and Neo. Ask yourselves if the political regime was friendly to Socrates or Neo, and the answer is a definite no. Socrates was murdered by the democrats, and Neo is hunted by the machines.

Makes me think of another philosopher and obvious Neo parallel, Jesus Christ.

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