Painted

I'm not a parent and don't plan on becoming one, and I have no other input to this thread except IT WASN'T RAPE BECAUSE THEY BOTH CONSENTED TO HAVING SEX. STOP CALLING IT RAPE. STOP IT.

Sorry, it's just a little pet peeve I have.

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Blackthorn

Hey slim....are you yourself a parent? I'm just curious about where your experience came from to reach this conclusion. I'm not trying to start any du du here but what might help you see things differently is to put yourself in victorjara's position. Try for a moment to see the world through his eyes and stop reacting to what you perceive through yours.


victorjara I am not a parent and I don't know how I would have reacted were I in this situation. I hope that in time your duaghter will realize you want what's best for her in this world and that you can both work together to put that picture in place.

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itch vaccine

I'm not too sure to say it wasn't rape. But here's my take on it. It is considered rape because she's 16 and unable to think (I'm not generalising that all 16 yr olds are unable to think.. but to say that by most people's point of view, it is so) about the consequences of sex, thus persuaded by a more matured and slick man to be able to find his way into bed with her.

So in that sense, it is rape. Though consented, it may be due to trickery, or the inability to think of the consequences.

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When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it seems like two hours.
That's relativity."
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dksuddeth

well get over it. It IS rape. It's called statutory rape. That means that theres a statute in that state that says 16 year olds are UNABLE to consent to sexual relations with adults.

Some day, when you have a 16 year old daughter, you'll know exactly what statutory rape means.

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Amnesia620

Your daughters last reply in your original post is not really a surprise to me. You started things off badly by pressing charges. You jumped to conclusions about your grandsons father and therefore, have made it harder for him "to step up and be a man".

You're daughter may have been young, but she makes her own choices. If her baby's father was about to skip town, beating your daughter, threatening to take the child, etc. - these are reasons for pressing Statutory rape charges. Which, by the way, you've just ruined that young man's chances at some of the best jobs on the market; many companies are changing their hiring policies and will not consider a candidate for hire - Even After Seven + Years!

You are punishing your daughter and her child by not allowing the father in their life...in my opinion, you went about this all wrong.

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bing bing

If this exact situation occured in Australia, it'd not have been a crime.

yster

We don't let little kids play with loaded revolvers, because it's pretty clear from past instances that bad things will happen. Whatever your take on religion, clearly 16 year olds aren't going to be stable parents, and it is just going to mess up her life and chances to acquire the stability that she would need to one day become a good parent. It is not the fault of those on welfare that they are there, people don't choose their education, upbringing, or life circumstances that lead to one's station in life at 16; but it is clear that while welfare is a stopgap to keep people from falling too far, it does little to help them become productive members of society. It is usually too late. Yeah, 16 year olds are dumb, they have sex, they're just kids, whatever- but the guy should know better. 20 to 15/16 is okay, but 20 to 12 isn't? 20 to 8? It's not religion, it's common sense.
The father is clearly not responsible or intelligent enough to care for the baby on his own, so the law should compel him to, just like Vic is trying to have accomplished. He is half-responsible for that kid, so whatever your take on breadwinning, he should at least pay his share.

bad jane

i don't have kids but had fate dealt me a slightly different hand, i easily could have been in this situation when i was your daughter's age. she may be coming up on 18, but she is still a child. if you are anything like my parents, you prolly have to keep reminding yourself she isn't twelve anymore


i've read the entire thread and imo, your best bet is to give serious consideration to what you want (for yourself, for your daughter and for your grandson). does it really matter to you who the father is? if not, tell your daughter it doesn't matter. if you think it is important, tell her why but don't shove it down her throat. there are a lot of very good reasons why she may want to find out. what happens if she needs to know the father's medical history for her child? what is she going to tell him when her son asks about his father? if she manages to get by with a vague response as he gets older--what happens when he's an adult and decides he wants to look for his father? she's denying her son a lot by not knowing, even if she has no desire to enter into a relationship with the father or get child support from him.

if i were in your shoes, i know i'd want what was best for my daughter and grandchild. to me, that means i have to be in their lives. some may say let her go her own way, but personally i wouldn't be willing to take that kind of risk. i know i don't always take the path my parents would have chosen for me, but at least i (now) know that they will support me in whatever choice i do make. there are a lot of bad places for a teen mother and her child to end up and i really don't think you want that for your family. tough love may sound like a good idea to some, but if things don't work out ok, are you going to be able to live with that choice? could you go on with no regrets never knowing what happened to your daughter and grandson? not knowing if they were alive or dead? if you can, then by all means take that path if you feel it is the best decision you can make. but if you don't know with certainty that you could let her out of your life forever and not ever feel responsible for what happens, then i suggest you do whatever you have to do to keep her in your life.

i know your daughter is angry at you. maybe she even knew that this guy wasn't going to be the dad and that's why she was so angry you insisted on the paternity test. right now, you need to let her know where you stand on the situation. if you don't care who the father is, tell her that. let her know that you will support whatever decision she chooses to make on this (keep in mind that while you may only want what you feel is best for her, those are decisions that she will also have to live with and if they aren't what she wants that is going to piss her off even more).

there is so much your daughter and grandson need from you, and i don't mean money. you have a lifetime of experiences to draw from as a parent and a person. my parents are in their 50's, their parents have passed on but i know that not a day goes by when they don't wish they could ask them for advice about something. parents are one of the most valuable resources we have, even if we don't always realize it.

my best advice to you is to offer to be her father. support her (this doesn't mean financial if you aren't comfy with that) and love her. find out what she wants for herself and the baby then help her find a way to get it. if that means babysitting while she goes to class or studies, do it. if it means helping her find a job or career that will allow her to support her and her child while still doing something she takes pride in and enjoys, help her. if it means watching her fall flat on her butt as she tries to figure out her life, watch her and then help her back up. be her shoulder to cry on, be there to give her love and support, be her sounding board, be whatever she needs you to be. you're her dad, that's what you're for.

KinkyKiwi

i agree with suave..

personally when i was 13 i started dating a 17 year old...when he was 18 i was 14...we did end up having sex...i truly loved him ...even that young you can still have intense emotions... she had sex with someone a few years older and got pregnant...shes going to have to suffer for her actions for the rest of her life..did you ever think that she would need emtional support insted of trying to rip away a guy she cares about and deny her at least that for what? your own selfish reasons? were you there for her before? doesnt seem like it so why teh hell do you have the right to do this now...she wasnt raped she had sex and if you want to be there why cant you actually be there for her? my parents werent happy that i waas with an older guy..but they would never have pressed charges..they loved me enough to know that i needed him around and put aside their own feelings about it

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insidious_machinae

This message has been deleted.

kangaeru

You are too rigid Victor. You appeared absolutely unbending in your adherence to the rules above protecting this girl as your flesh and blood...but as time took it's toll you SLOWLY softened.

This guy isn't even her father...there's the rubb eh. No offense Victor, I don't know you beyond what I have seen posted here, but you seem like an overpious, by the books to the T kind of person. Your daughter obviously isn't...throw in the fact that you weren't a huge part of her life, and then here you stepped in, invoking legal means you didn't have to. Man, all you had to do was ask yourself...why was my daughter looking for love in these places? You didn't take her side--you didn't have her back when she needed you post. You instead chose to throw the book at her.

It's not a matter of setting boundaries. At that point you have to step in as a father and find out WHY she was having sex at that age...why she was hanging out with gang bangers. Man that guy she was with didn't even give her the baby...I don't think any of you realize how deep into that scene she might have been.

Do you even know they're gang bangers? You say the boy came to court in a t-shirt down his knees, but that's also just hip hop style today, and a lot of respectable kids are just into that style.

I don't know man, this is really a mess...just talk to your daughter, and ask her the things you want to know. Don't give your own opinions, don't berate...just listen. Think outside of your own personality--don't look at this situation from your own point of view. It's a hard concept, but shed all of your prejudices, all of your religious beliefs, all your morals. Just look at this for what it is...a young confused girl making some mistakes. Be a father and help her find her way again through compassion and understanding. You've gotta bend or you're not going to be able to hold the weight from all this emotional baggage forever and you're going to break.

Midnight_Son

here's my 2 cents, I met my wife when I was 19, she was 17 at the time. after about 6 months of dateing she became pregnant.

Now, at the time..her Dad could have had me locked up but he didn't, and I honestly believe that if he had, my life would have gone a different way.

My wife and I celbrated our 14th wedding aniversary last month.

nuff said?

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pattycakes

I feel for you, but................ pressing charges making ti so he cant see her or the child.. then wanting child support? that is a little drastic. As much as you hate the idea he is the father no matter what.
He was in the wrong, yes, but you need to accept how your daughter feels.

If you had a son who was 20 and got someone elses daughter preg how would you react when he was denied seeing the child.would it really be fair

i am on yourside 85% but "it happens" and you have got a tad two far in my eyes. think from both sides. I understand its your little girl, but shes gotta grow up... and that the hardest part of being a father

letting the little girls gor up

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pattycakes

you should have been straight forward with your daughter about sed and condoms... possibly getting her on the patch the pill or have her get the shot . the show wont protect against aids or such, but she would not get preg.

EVERYONE needs to have sex education when they are 11 -13 thats when they get the urges... use a condom use a condom use a condom

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braindamage351

I don't know if this has already been addressed, but you basically permanently screwed her. The father of her child is now a felon incapable of getting a real job. She can never do well financially, and if she leaves she will be a single mother at the age of 18.

braindamage351

The term Maturity is one of the most misused words I've ever seen. Teenagers are not mature now and never have been. Having sex, taking drugs, and even sounding intelligent does not make someone mature. If you look closer you'll notice how off the priorities are. Then again, that's true of most of the population.

pattycakes

teens will have sex no matter what you say. if and when i have a daughter she will take birthcontrol. I would mostlikley have her go with the shot.it wont protect her from any aids,herpes or anything like that but it would protect her from getting preg

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Hektore

You asked at one point about advice from people in similar situations, I'm going to come at you from the perspective of your grandson and post something I almost can't believe hasn't really come up yet.

While the situation surrounding my birth was not all together as scandalous, the reactions of all parties involved were pretty much indistinguisably similar. Mind you my dad speaks english, but he already had another son to a different, older(than himself) woman, than my mother. He was 18 and I'm almost certain was not paying child support on his other son. You can bet my mother's father was really happy about this. But..with me he did what I'm sure you wanted this guy to do, he went out started working 2 and 3 jobs at a time, whatever he could to do to bring home the most money to give me the best life he could. He stepped up to the plate and became a man. I'm also pretty sure you going to want to find out who the father really is and have him do the same. Man or not, I'm going to tell you something I think you really really really....(continued indefinitely)...need to hear, something I so badly wish I could go back and tell my dad.

Being the breadwinner is the absolute least important responsibility you have as a father.

I mean that in my heart. I would have given every luxury I had as a child if it meant my dad was going to be home more, and when he was home he had the energy to do anything. I'm here to tell you, playing catch with my dad(or hell, even watching the grass grow with him) would have meant more than any amount of anything tangible he gave me, sometimes even including the food on the table.

Don't get me wrong, I lived a happy life for the most part, my dad did the best he could but he cared more about being a man than being a dad, and for a good part of my childhood I hated him for it. Now I understand why he did what he did and that it was the best he knew how to do but that doesn't mean I'm happy about it. I now think I'm going to have to go revise that 'the last time I cried post'...

After reading your current situation I think the best way to solve your family being in chaos is to let your daughter lead from here in any way she is able to and help her in any way you can. She is to the point where she has to be held accountable for her descisions and has to start being in control of her own life. I'm am going to choose to believe she has matured considerably through the course of having a child. I will say this, even thought it may seem contrary, when you really believe she is going to make a(nother) hugely damaging mistake, don't be afraid to put your foot down. I don't care what anyone says, at 16(I'm now 20) I thought I knew everything. Now I realize that when I was 16, I. didn't. have. a. fucking. clue. what I was doing. Really, if you want to get into it, I didn't know what I was doing last week. People of all ages make mistakes, I think the most important role you can play as a parent is to try to minimilize the truly damaging mistakes, and letting them make a few not so damaging mistakes, if simply to prove you do know what your talking about. *flashback to licking that 9V battery even though mom said it wasn't a good idea*. You seem like a good guy and a top notch dad in that you have her best interests are heart. But like I said, people of all ages make mistakes, don't be afraid to admit it. You can choose to not listen to any of this last paragraph, after all, I'm still a just kid. But I won't forgive you for ignoring the rest, and niether will your daugter or grandson.

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Tarl Cabot

Don't know if you're still reading this, but .....

I have yet to figure out what you wanted to accomplish by pressing charges. Getting the father classified as a felon, so he couldn't provide much child support?

There are a great many bitter men out there, who write a check every month, but aren't allowed to see their kid(s). Also not a good way to ensure reliable child support. That would appear to be moot, since he's not the father. However, if and when you find out who the father really is, I think you should approach the matter differently. In other words, get child support, but don't get him declared a felon.

Along those lines, although I'm not a lawyer, I think it would be a big mistake to sue for visitation rights, if things deteriorate with your daughter. First, it's unlikely to prevent your daughter from moving to another state if she gets mad enough. Secondly, woe be unto you if the child should get injured while in your care. Thirdly, if your daughter is REALLY mad, she can do what so many other angry women do--accuse you of molesting the child. I don't know your daughter, but this happens routinely in divorce cases.

As the father of a daughter, my advice would be to do nothing the daughter doesn't ask you to do, and that means quit trying to force her to do what YOU want. It won't work anyway until she realizes that your advice is good, and unfortunately, that may be years from now.

Once the child support stops, she's going to have some hard choices. At that time, you can lay out your ground rules: If she wants support from you, you'll provide a roof over her head, food to eat, maybe a few clothes. Baby sitting, if it's convenient for YOU. Education expenses if things work out that way. But no cash!!!!

One more little kicker for you: I can't remember where I read it, but many states are so broke now that they're legally requiring GRANDPARENTS to provide financial support for their grandchildren.

You might want to talk to your lawyer about what you should do to stay out of that situation.

I hope this wasn't harsh, and I wish you the best.

d*d

You did the right thing but handled it badly with regards to talking about it with your daughter from what i can gather, a lot of the posters seem to think that the father, due to the closeness of your daughters age to the legal age of consent did no wrong- but I completely disagree - he should be held accountable, From what i can pick up some people think that at 15 you are able to make responsible decisions about sex, well obviously not - but at 20 you should.

liquidlight

You pose an excellent dilema. . .and being a parent, a teenage father, and a convicted felon (burglary, a little different but still a crime) I can tell you that it's an incredibly conflicting situation.

I agree with you that the father needs to step up and take care of your daughter and the child, but I feel that charging the boy may have prevented a lot of what you're aiming for. From your original posting it sounds like the sexual encounters were consenting, please correct me if I'm wrong. Your enforcement of his violation means two things, first he is now a convicted felon. . . and I can't BEGIN to tell you how complicated that makes getting even a minimum wage paying job, much less something professional that could allow you to support a family. Second, not only is he a felon, if your states laws are anything like mine he now counts as a sex offender, which carries it's own set of complications and stigmas. That being said, and mind you I'm attempting to remain objective about the boy, but he doesn't sound very promising, I feel that you're right that he should take resposibility for this child and be supporting both the baby and the mother. Another caviot, giving that support and not being able to see the results of all his hard work is a little callous, I can understand your concern about them being together, but can you see why he might not be so inspired to succeed and care for the two of them when he doesn't get the reminders of why he's trying so hard?

I'm also divorced and have the same "softie" problem with my ex-wife, discipline with my children is a constant struggle, but in my personal life I do my best to make that struggle with their mother and how lax she is in enforcing the rules, rather than making the children suffer for her shortcomings. Luckily my children are still young enough (5 and 4) that I've been able to this point to create the distinction that I'm not their mother and that they will not behave in certain ways around me.

I guess what it really comes down to is I agree with your concern for your daughter, but I disagree with the current status of the situation and how you're addressing it, it just seems like you're digging yourself a deeper hole. Have you tried getting your daughter to neutral ground and attempting a compromise with her that you can both work from? I would hope that the final goal for all of you would be that she and the baby are taken care of and provided for, but you've only got 6 more months until she is legally an adult and can remove you from the decision making process entirely, after that any input you would have sounds like it's going to be ignored by her because of how hurt she is, regardless of how good it might be.

Cynthetiq

Here in the state of NY once you've been declared the father for child support purposes, it's next to impossible to remove that duty, even if DNA proves that you are not the father.

The state sees it as better some "father" than no "father."

your daughter is all to blame for this. these were her choices she made, whom ever she had conceived the child with. Choices she has to live with.

My parents said it may times, "No matter how deep you bury it, your shit still stinks."

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victorjara

Thank you all. I really appreciate all your opinions and experiences. Right now, things appear to be running smoothly. My daughter does not want to deal with issues regarding who the real father may be. Either she doesn't know, or doesn't want to have him involved, (or afraid I'll press charges). I've told her that we will look forward rather than backward. I'm glad the other dude is out of the picture, he was such a loser. Don't need that in the family. I told my daughter to prepare an answer when the baby grows up and asks about where's his daddy. Till then, I'm doing my best, and being the man in the life of the child. I am working on developing respect for my daughter, and I guess she is working on issues about me. She is doing OK in her first year of college, so that is a good start. Thank you all again.

Victor

pattycakes

sorry ill be the one to tell you this. You calling him a loser makes you yourself just as big of a loser

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Prince

I wouldn't have put it quite as bluntly, but I can't exactly disagree.

The best of luck and everything to your daughter.

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Phant84

i woulda beat the shit outta him. sorry

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Phant

Irrationality is the square root of all evil

Tack

I think there is an amnesia that kicks in when you have children. I'm not talking about your daughter having a child, I mean you. Do you not remember what is like to be 16 and your body constantly bombarding your brain with messages that say "must...procreate...must...procreate..." If the boy was 16, would you be any less upset? Would it be rape then? What difference does it make what age he was?

I think you have lost your daughter forever. If you was 16 and you was truly in love with a girl and your parents forbid you to see her, would you just say, "Fine, you are the wise and powerful parents and I shall obey your wishes?" When you are 16, you are in my opinion an adult. You can make rational decisions and live with those consequences.

Just for kicks, take a look at www.ageofconsent.com and check the laws not only in the different states in the US, but in different countries. If it was universally accepted that 18 was the legal age of an adult, then there wouldn't be such a variation in the age in which a person can have legal consentual sex.

Dale Kemp

Victor,

You buy your daughter a car, but keep it awhile, until some contention comes up, then you use it as a bargaining chip, to make her give in to you having your way.
You pay for your daughter's housing, but consider it to give you a right to visit "your grandchild." Note that you call him your grandchild, rather than her son.

You sound like a guy trying to be controlling. She is finally learning to stand up to you, by telling you to take all the things you buy her and shove them. I think this is a healthy, positive step for her. You could stand to work on your tendency to BUY her love, rather than trying to earn it by being good, loving and caring to her.

I think the letter is a VERY good idea. It isn't demanding of her time, or intrusive. But it expresses your love. Even though you are controlling, you are trying to be loving, in your own perverted, little boy way.

In your letters, be sure to tell her, over and over, that you feel sad that she got into such adult responsibilities as being a mother, when she was so very young, but that you are proud of her that she bore the child and is working hard to care for it.

You should also consider, and meditate on, the fact that the father was way to young, at least emotionally, to take on the adult responsibilities of fatherhood. But he would like to love his child's mother and help her raise the boy as best he can. You might consider being proud of him for that.

Yes, both the mother and father are still to young, really, to have a child. But they have one, and are willing to make the best of it and work to make a life together and for their son. Bully for them.

OK, that's my soapbox for today.

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Trueheart

Janey

I really really have to agree with shakran. Unfortunately Vic, you have been put in the hard and responsible position, because nobody else is stepping up. Stick to your guns, you will see in about 10 years, your daughter's thinking will kick into place. right now she is a vindictive child who doesn't realize that you are there to ensure that the future works out for her.

Parents are not supposed to be their children's buddies. You will have to make hard decisions. The hard truth is, for some reason your daughter fell under the thrall of an adult, who should have known better, and for whatever reason found her to be an accessible target. This is the reason for the laws in the first place.

Your job as the parent and guardian is to ensure that your daughter's well being is taken care of. Actually, her mother's lack of over-sight is almost criminal in itself. she has compromised your daughter's ability to continue her education past high school, and therefore prevented her from being able to support her new family with a well paying job. Heaven knows if the father of the baby will be around (voluntarily) in 5 yrs time if there is no committment (legal or otherwise).

You may have room to manoeuvre emotionally (i.e. how you state your case: i notice that teenagers are especially susceptible to tone of voice, and tend to be emotional), but the facts are, she has a baby, he is responsible, she is a child, he is an adult. He should be made responsible for his actions at all levels, and she should think it through.


(rant finished. - I apologize for comming off as morally indignant, but i have a hard time accepting the immaturity of women, who ruin it for those of us who strive to be independant in this world)

questone

She needs to learn that there are consequences to being stupid (and having sex at 16 is the epitome of stupid) and that if she doesn't want to step up to the plate and do what needs to be done

more fire

ditto for britain.

KinkyKiwi

i still dont get how anyone could think its okay to blame the guy? its sex. not rape.

you werent there for her before..if her mother was so "loose" where were you..all of a sudden she has sex with someone and gets pregnant and you think you can run her life? and c'mon its not "your grandchild" first and foremost..its "her child".

Sigmund Freud would have had a field day with ya!

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Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

astrahl

As a female, I think you did the right thing too. Lessons can hurt sometimes and your daughter, if she grows up, will "get it." When her child is old enough to be in this situation, she'll get it.

Where is your ex in all of this? She sounds like a total noodle and a failure as a diciplinarian.

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