NoSoup

Alright, so this is probably quite a ways down the road, if it ever happens, but -

There have been studies that suggest celluar memory. Basically, a planeria (a very simple worm) was placed into a maze with food as a reward. After traversing the maze many, many times, it finally knew the way. The planeria was then killed, ground up, and fed to other planeria. When placed in the maze, they found the food in record time, usually with the first or second attempt.

Although it would be a long shot to begin this type of thing with more complex animals, especially humans, if scientists were to figure out exactly where the memories were stored and how to transfer them to a new body, you could in effect transfer someones memories into a new body.

With the advances in cloning, you could potentially clone yourself, feed your clone your brain juice or whatever, and then that clone, in all effectiveness, would be you. There wouldn't be any real use for your older body, so if it wasn't destroyed in the process of transferring memory it could be destroyed after with no ill effects.

If this process was actually ever perfected, would you go through with it? Why or why not? Can you imagine being 4 years old and knowing all you know now? Humans could potentially become incredibly intelligent with the ability to devote several lifetimes to studying...

Just something to think about...

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ARTelevision

I don't want to live forever

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Master_Shake

I'm not really sure that cloning is a method of living forever. Certainly to those on the exterior of your mind, it would appear that you are a constant, but with the destruction of your mind in the first body, you would be left with only a copy of yourself. You would probably notice the difference when your consciousness disappeared or disolved or discombobulated (or whatever happens to consciousness when you die). Not knowing the limits of human consciousness, I would have to balk at such a procedure. Additionally, I wouldn't want to subject future generations to me; I barely fit in society now, I can just imagine how I'll be received in a few hundred years when everybody's blonde and a vegetarian.

There's another post about molecular transportation/reconstruction that explores a similar idea.

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

Charlatan

I only want to live forever, if I have eternal youth...

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ARTelevision

I'm very happy having left my youth behind and would not take it back if it was offered free of charge.

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KellyC

It would be nice if I can live a couple extra lives, I wouldn't want to live forever either.

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CoachAlan

I remember reading about the planeria study. It turned out that there was a tertiary effect doing the work. The scientists weren't fully cleaning the maze between trials, and the new planeria were simply following the trail left by the ones before. (More on that from Straight Dope: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mflatworm.html)

This thread is a great example of how pseudo-science works. First, an unlikely claim is made with some supporting evidence. Next, those who like the idea help it spread like wildfire. Then, once the original research is peer-reviewed, the truth comes out. But, of course, pseudo-scientists don't usually subscribe to peer-reviewed journals, and so the corrected information is not disseminated.

That's not to fault you, NoSoup. I'm simply pointing out that we all need to be careful to check the sources from which we receive our data. If it was in Nature, then it's probably true. If it was in FATE, then you may want to double check it.

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Jubal

http://astrosite.com/___QuantumPortal-8.htm
http://astrosite.com/___QuantumPortal-5.htm

Care of orlingrabbe.com

What do some leading proponents of quantum theory think?


WARNING: Not for those short on attention span.

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:::OshnSoul:::

Ever heard of the saying
"we are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a human experience." ?
If we can imagine, think outside of the box for a moment here, we can discover more about our life and what it really is.
Though our bodies were created to outlast forever, we as humans have created things to make eternal life on earth impossible, such as pollution, diseases, crime, excessiveness (with anything), greed, and even seperation.
This life is an experience for us, one out of an infinite many.

ManWithAPlan

very good points... this is very difficult to explain but look at it this way: your conciousness is your ability to see. (in a way) So right now look at your door or something... now imagine... you die... you can no longer SEE or THINK or FEEL. but there is this new being with a clean-slate mind....

even if he now knows everything you KNEW, you are still dead.
To others, it might seem like he is the same is you, but to YOU, you are still dead (but not gonna complain, because you're DEAD)


by the way, jubal, when you post links you should briefly explain what they are... especially seeing as how these aren't really loading for me.

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In the end we are but wisps

mcovey

i dont want to live forever.

you'd commit suicide eventually if NOTHING else threatened you. just the stress of having been alive and seeing so much. You'd _want_ to die.

CSflim

What would you know!? YOU only use 10% of your brain!

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CSflim

What makes you come to this bizzare conclusion?
a) Death and decay existed long before humans even arrived on the scene.
b) There is a lot of evidence to suggest that our bodies were "designed" (to briefly personify nature) to give us a finite lifespan.
c) Technological development has vastly increased our life expectancy; not diminished it.
d) The percentage of people who die due to war in 'primitive' societies is many muliptiles of that who have died in developed society over the last century (which don't forget includes two world wars and nuclear attacks)

Unless of course you were thinking so far outside the box that argument is entirely uncalled for.

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:::OshnSoul:::

ok, this is something that isn't worth arguing-
because it's a part of my truth- as it may not be yours.
That's totally fine.
I know that as a Soul I live forever, and that I do not wish to "live" in this human experience forever. But it was originally made possible.

ManWithAPlan

oookay...

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Rdr4evr

If you dont mind me asking, why?

CoachAlan

Ugh! Don't even get me started on THAT myth...

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ManWithAPlan

All evidence i've seen proves that that MYTH is a fact.... what-have-you to say other wise?

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In the end we are but wisps

Master_Shake

What evidence have you seen?

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_028.html

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

ManWithAPlan

that site doesn't seem very trustworthy... the guy spends half a page taunting you...

the idea that we use 10% of our brain is not an implication to telepathic powers..

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In the end we are but wisps

CSflim

Yeah, I guessed as much.

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CSflim

Jees! I throw in a joke that we only use 10% of our brains, thinking that everyone would get the joke. Shows how strong that particular meme is. Certainly seems to ratify CoachAlan's post above (That 'I want to believe' pseudo-science memes spread like wildfire, and become so established, that they are impossible to shake).
We use every last nueron in our brains.

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CoachAlan

Apparently Master Shake and I were the only ones who got it.

How did this thread not end four days ago? The original premise what that research with flatworms suggests that fresh knowledge can be passed on genetically. The premise is busted, why isn't this thread?

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NoSoup

Well, although the example given in the beginning may be even more far-fetched now, the question remains the same...

Would you willingly die if you knew that another being with all your experiences, thoughts, and memories would live in your place?

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Just in case you were wondering...

ManWithAPlan

no because they would not share your concience

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Fireshiru1

The biological make up of a simple worm is vastly different to the most complex creature on earth: humans. Cloning won't give you another life unless brain transplants become safe, but that'll most likely never happen because severing the spine from the body and the brain instantely kills the brain. It's a compatabilty issue. Although your clone has the identical DNA, the mutations your body has gone through in time wouldn't alow your clone's body to accept your brain.

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Seer666

Supposing that they could do this, I'm not sure that I would. I might try it once just because it would be fun to have the body of a 4 year old to really mess with people's heads, but like I said before, I don't like this planet much. Also, the thing that seems to bother most people with this idea is that they view it as being abody without a soul. But who is to say that soul wouldn't know it's own mind and follow? Either way, I would try it once at the most, if that much. Looking forward to the next world, and relly don't want to stick around this one much longer

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ManWithAPlan

think Stewie... family guy...

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Seer666

LoL. It's all about Stewie.

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

Dawson70

maybe if I could use it to set the day of my death. I have often thought knowing such a thing would drive a man mad, but if I was old and knew I was ready......I could say...ok at 120 years.......boink me over the head with somethin

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ManWithAPlan

Euthanasia?

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swillen

Human brain never fully developes until you are out of your teens. You could not be 4 years old and know everything you know now. So either your brain would reject the "memory juice" or some other side effect will occur. So after you have learned all that you know and are fed to your clone (which would have to be about 18.) Wouldn't some things overlap and probably leave some serious side effects. Only real way to think of passing on memories would be to record your life and relay them to your clone through an external means. Or perhaps someday have a brain ray gun and poke around and implant selected memories. Or grab that handy dandy ray gun once more and wipe your brain clean after it developes then take a hit of that juice.

Planeria are so simple that they might have that ability to absorb the nervous system of a consumed planeria. I very much doubt that any human will ever live more than 1 lifetime.

CSflim

In the book, The Mind's I, Daniel C. Dennet talks about technology for transferring memories and knowledge between brains:

"The problems of transferring massive amounts of information between structurally different brains - such as yours and mine - are not insurmountable. the technology that already exists for accomplishing the task may, however, turn out in the end to be the most efficient possible. One of the most recent and advanced examples of that technology is in your hands at this instant"

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ManWithAPlan

okay? are you talking about simple communication?

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In the end we are but wisps

CSflim

Well, obviously the quote works better when you are actually holding said book in your hand at the time!

But yes, in my opinion the idea of injecting "memory juice" into someone else is simply ludicrous. Fair enough, it may have been used merely as a metaphor, but the idea of trying to map your mind onto someone else's brain is crazy... and besides, don't you think this young person is going to be a bit upset over that fact that you are hi-jacking his brain to further your own needs?

Sure, perhaps in principle, we could go right down to the neural level, and rewire said brain to the required configuration...but why go to all that trouble? We already have such a brain which is in exactly such a configuration!

No, the key to immortality does not lie in trying to transfer your mind into somone else's body. If it is to be achieved, it will be achieved by more conventional methods: better and better health-care.

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ManWithAPlan

society doesn't give a shit about what young people think!

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In the end we are but wisps

redarrow

I know this was probably settled long ago, but remember the first planeria went all around the maze. Therefore if the later planeria followed its trail it would also go all around the maze, not just to the center.

Then again, then how would the later planeria know where the reward was if the first one went all around the maze?

CSflim

Because the direct route would have been the one with the strongest trail, seeing as how it would have been the most traversed.

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ManWithAPlan

^^ exactly

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In the end we are but wisps

orphen

you should really check out altered carbon

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

if you like sci-fi and cyber punk books, this book deals with the notion of "immortality". essentially,the book takes place in the future world in which people can store themselves in digital form and transfer from body to body; living forever in all practical sense. What's interesting, i think is that most people don't want to live forever. it's too much a stress. ****
another thing, regarding the experiement of the worm and memory tranfered through organic material, the evidence and data from the lab is very sketchy. very little consistency in its result. many scientists think it's a total fluke because no one has since reproduce data reflecting the original hypothesis.**two cents