Steven hawking- New Black Hole theory - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

07-16-2004, 08:01 PM

I contemplated on where to put this, it seems most fitting here, because of the philosophy behind the theories which intrigue me most, but mods are welcome to move it.

[b]Hawking changes his mind on black holes[b]
Galactic traps may actually allow information to escape, author says

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5452537/

Quote:

After almost 30 years of arguing that a black hole swallows up everything that falls into it, astrophysicist Stephen Hawking backpedaled Thursday. In doing so, he lost one of the most famous bets in recent scientific history.

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The world-famous author of a "Brief History of Time" said he and other scientists had gotten it wrong —the galactic traps may in fact allow information to escape.

"I've been thinking about this problem for the last 30 years, and I think I now have the answer to it," Hawking told the British Broadcasting Corp.'s "Newsnight" program.

"A black hole only appears to form but later opens up and releases information about what fell inside. So we can be sure of the past and predict the future."

The findings, which Hawking is due to present at the 17th International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation in Dublin, Ireland, on July 21, could help solve the "black hole information paradox," which is a crucial puzzle of modern physics.

A puzzle of modern physics
Exactly what happens in a black hole, a region in space where matter is compressed to such an extent that not even light can escape from its immense gravitational pull, has long puzzled scientists.

Black holes occur when a massive star burns up its nuclear fuel and gravity forces it to collapse in on itself, and the enormous weight of the star's outer layers implodes its core. The crushing force of gravity prohibits nearly all light from escaping and nothing inside can be glimpsed from the outside.

The star virtually disappears from the universe into a point of infinite density, a place where the laws of general relativity that govern space and time break down.

Hawking has devoted most of his life to studying these questions.

Initially, cosmologists believed the holes were like a cosmic vacuum cleaner, sucking up everything in their path.

Hawking revolutionized the study of the holes when he demonstrated in 1976 that, under the strange rules of quantum physics, once black holes form they start to "evaporate" away, radiating energy and losing mass in the process.

Under this theory, black holes are not totally "black" because the vacuum of the imploding star lets out very tiny amounts of matter and energy in the form of photons, neutrinos and other subparticles.

By conjuring up this so-called "Hawking radiation," the Cambridge mathematician, who is paralyzed by amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, also created one of the biggest conundrums in physics.

These particles, he said, contained no information about what has been occurring inside the black hole, or how it formed. Under his theory, once the black hole evaporates, all the information within would be lost.

New theory
But now, according to his latest revision, Hawking argues that eventually some of the information about the black hole can be determined from what it emits.

The information has important philosophical and practical consequences.

"We can never be sure of the past or predict the future precisely," he said. "A lot of people wanted to believe that information escaped from black holes but they didn't know how it could get out."

Hawking did not elaborate on the BBC program how the information could be extracted from the black hole.

Curt Cutler, from the Albert Einstein Institute in Golm, Germany, which is chairing the meeting in Dublin, told New Scientist magazine that Hawking asked at the last minute for permission to address the conference.

"He sent a note saying `I have solved the black hole information paradox and I want to talk about it,'" Cutler said.

If Hawking succeeds in making his case, he will lose a bet that he and theoretical physicist Kip Thorne of the California Institute of Technology made with John Preskill, also of Caltech.

The terms of the bet were that "information swallowed by a black hole is forever hidden and can never be revealed."

Preskill bet against that theory.

The forfeit is an encyclopedia, from which Preskill can recover information at will.

CoachAlan · 07-17-2004, 04:16 AM

It will be interesting to find out how Hawking thinks this occurs. I remember the first time I was introduced to Hawking Radiation. That was a real mind bender, and that's what totally sold me on Hawking's brilliance. Be sure to keep this thread updated when his info comes out.

ARTelevision · 07-17-2004, 07:25 AM

This new theory is better than the old one...

I was thinking about the black hole at the heart of the Milky Way the other day. I focused on it and visualized it. Then my thoughts disappeared inside the event horizon. I like the idea of thinking that they weren't lost.

07-17-2004, 01:20 PM

I don't ever think anything is lost, whether it be people, objects, or thoughts/information. It's/their there, just somewhere else it seems to us.

tiberry · 07-23-2004, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ARTelevision
I was thinking about the black hole at the heart of the Milky Way the other day. I focused on it and visualized it. Then my thoughts disappeared inside the event horizon. I like the idea of thinking that they weren't lost.

I hope that I can learn to control my thoughts so well - were you under the influence of anything when you did this exercise?

NoSoup · 07-23-2004, 07:57 AM

I read "A Brief Histroy of Time" - wow... Hawking is brilliant.

I read a bit about this new theory of his, seems fairly feasible, although my opinion doesn't really matter, as I am just a layman...

ForgottenKnight · 08-03-2004, 10:44 PM

Very Cool! That will be interesting to read how he thinks it's possible!

ARTelevision · 08-03-2004, 11:33 PM

tiberry - yes - my imagination.

Dav · 08-04-2004, 04:50 AM

I thought the bet was with Kip Thorne was whether or not Black Holes actually existed, and the prize for the winner a years subscription to Hustler...

CSflim · 08-04-2004, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dav
I thought the bet was with Kip Thorne was whether or not Black Holes actually existed, and the prize for the winner a years subscription to Hustler...

Hawking often makes bets about the way future scientific discoveries will work out. That bet is a much older one. The existance of Black Holes has been known for quite some time now.

Esen · 08-06-2004, 07:15 PM

Hmm.
One question I have is..
If black holes suck things in with such force. when they come back out (information etc) won t it be all scrambled and fragmented not really giving us much of its actual history before it was sucked in.

And I would guess this would also breath life into peoples theories of space travel, if you can go in and come back out.

Esen · 08-06-2004, 07:16 PM

I guess though that until anything is actually shown to come back out it s one big ol Shrodingers cat.

Zdragva · 08-29-2004, 09:46 PM

It depedns what they mean by information i guess, if its mass spin charge then thats all the info a blackhole retains anyway so thats kinda non-news, if its actual info then maybe he's on about advanced and retarded waves iv read about, quantum handshakes that require any transaction into the future is met by an equal one going to the past, but thats all i can come up with. btw on space drives there is actually a lot of progress or at least research going on, i know of at least 2 theories for 'warp' drive that are being considered. One is a bubble of spacetime and the exact geometry for one has been discovered by a dude in mexico or something, tho its uncontrollable and destroys space i tihnk :P the other is space like wormholes, which are being searched for by nasa as they think they came out of the big bang and its possible (they say) the mouth was threaded by cosmic string and is open. maybe

stingc · 08-30-2004, 02:08 AM

The point Hawking was trying to make was that it is in principle possible for *all* of information that goes in to be extracted later. It would be extremely scrambled, but all of it would be there. In more technical language, the system is unitary (you might recognize this word from linear algebra). That's very far from saying that you could travel into a black hole and still make a meaningful escape. But who knows what someone will think of in 100 years...

An interesting point that most of the media neglected is that there have actually been several people in recent months besides Hawking who have shown the same thing. They all used different methods though, and I don't know that any of them on their own are very convincing. Most people for example do not agree with Hawking's particular method.

Willravel · 08-30-2004, 08:36 PM

I've been at the edge of my seat (so to speak) about this since I found out about it. Hawking is one of the people I aspire to be like, and I've been doing all I can to try and keep up with his utter genius for years. I have to admit, I never thought he'd go back on this theory (although I always hoped, because of the incredable weight* this discovery might mean). Unfortunatally, I don't see mankind proving this theory in my lifetime, though I can dream. We have to move forward in several areas of quantum physics before we can begin to decode the information floating out there.

When I first heard that the International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation is heald in Dublin, I suddenly got this flash of a bunch of the worlds top physists telling really boreing physics jokes over tall lager beers in a pub after the confrence. Those guys know how to have a good time, after all.

locke23 · 09-01-2004, 07:13 PM

Thats quite an imagination ARTelivision.

locke23 · 09-01-2004, 07:14 PM

I look foward to Hawking's new theory. Out of the many years in which the battle between physicists and quantum physicists I have always though that if there was one person in the world who was going to solve the enigma that is a black hole that it would be Hawking. I may have to record the conference and listen to it a few times however; if there is one person in the world who is good at confusing me, it's Stephen Hawking.

Zdragva · 09-12-2004, 12:12 AM

Hawking rules

i think its amusing tho that unless there is a MARKET for any of this all the great scientific discoveries of our time will remian just that. Even with pre 1970's technology we could be doing so many things now that we just cant AFFORD to do :P iv had idea's and im sure u guys have to, things like saving our planet by setting up our essential yet polluting/dangerous industries on Mars. whats the reason we arnt doingthis? the cost of fuel/ the cost per pound to put stuff in orbit. Not only will we use up valuable fuels to do this today it will also cost billions nay trillions/quadrillions of dollars to do. why must we restrain ourselves in this manner? if we simply had to provide hydrogen/reaction mass to do it it would be done by now, we have a whole universe of stuff we can use but not a whole universe of cash :P anyway enough ranting, id like to see independant companies or whatever doing what our governments are reluctant to do and that is invest in our future. our real future, as a people. In space.

Rdr4evr · 09-12-2004, 12:19 AM

Black Holes are warps to other galaxies, we could warp to parts of the universe that cannot be reached otherwise, once we have the technology of course....thats my theory

.

Paradise Lost · 09-12-2004, 11:18 AM

Stephen Hawking - 1, John Preskill - 1. Kip Thorne - ZERO!

powerclown · 09-12-2004, 11:44 AM

Interesting...
A female who's fascinated with stephen hawking, quantum physics, and black holes in space...
I would like to re-direct tiberry's question to the OP.

Amarth · 09-12-2004, 03:10 PM

An interesting philosophy, but the article lacked the specifics. Do you know anywhere I might be able to read more about this?

Albion · 09-13-2004, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Hawking did not elaborate on the BBC program how the information could be extracted from the black hole.

It's not to difficult. There are particles that "randomly" appear in the universe. But when they appear there are always two of them, a positive and a negative. What happens if one appears inside of the event horizon of a black hole and the other appears outside? One gets sucked into the black hole and is destroied while the other goes off into the universe as "Hawkings Radiation".

-Al

tspikes51 · 09-24-2004, 03:58 PM

I'm definately intrigued. Where can I learn more???

go-bots · 10-07-2004, 09:41 PM

did anyone else while reading this, think in a computerized robot voice?

liqudice · 10-12-2004, 10:55 PM

If there was a publicly known wager of the idea that hawking is talking about what triggered his thoughts to that mindset. did he simply over look the theory in the wager? I dont think he would. but i would like to know what new evidence that he has uncovered to make him jump to the statement that he solved it. Interesting non the less. I would have to dissagree with his area of expertese though, If i were him I'd focus my thoughts on cureing spinal diseases. But My mind is a selfish one. I will definitly follow this thread.

07-17-2004, 04:16 AM	#2 (permalink)
CoachAlan Psycho Location: Las Vegas	It will be interesting to find out how Hawking thinks this occurs. I remember the first time I was introduced to Hawking Radiation. That was a real mind bender, and that's what totally sold me on Hawking's brilliance. Be sure to keep this thread updated when his info comes out. __________________ "If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!" - Mark Twain

07-17-2004, 07:25 AM	#3 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	This new theory is better than the old one... I was thinking about the black hole at the heart of the Milky Way the other day. I focused on it and visualized it. Then my thoughts disappeared inside the event horizon. I like the idea of thinking that they weren't lost. __________________ create evolution

07-23-2004, 07:57 AM	#6 (permalink)
NoSoup Non-Rookie Location: Green Bay, WI	I read "A Brief Histroy of Time" - wow... Hawking is brilliant. I read a bit about this new theory of his, seems fairly feasible, although my opinion doesn't really matter, as I am just a layman... __________________ I have an aura of reliability and good judgement. Just in case you were wondering...

08-03-2004, 10:44 PM	#7 (permalink)
ForgottenKnight Jesus Freak Location: Following the light...	Very Cool! That will be interesting to read how he thinks it's possible! __________________ "People say I'm strange, does that make me a stranger?"

08-03-2004, 11:33 PM	#8 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	tiberry - yes - my imagination. __________________ create evolution

07-17-2004, 01:20 PM	#4 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	I don't ever think anything is lost, whether it be people, objects, or thoughts/information. It's/their there, just somewhere else it seems to us.

08-04-2004, 04:50 AM	#9 (permalink)
Dav Upright	I thought the bet was with Kip Thorne was whether or not Black Holes actually existed, and the prize for the winner a years subscription to Hustler...

08-06-2004, 07:15 PM	#11 (permalink)
Esen TFPer formaly known as Chauncey Location: North East	Hmm. One question I have is.. If black holes suck things in with such force. when they come back out (information etc) won t it be all scrambled and fragmented not really giving us much of its actual history before it was sucked in. And I would guess this would also breath life into peoples theories of space travel, if you can go in and come back out. __________________ ~Esen What is everyone doing in my room?

08-06-2004, 07:16 PM	#12 (permalink)
Esen TFPer formaly known as Chauncey Location: North East	I guess though that until anything is actually shown to come back out it s one big ol Shrodingers cat. __________________ ~Esen What is everyone doing in my room?

08-29-2004, 09:46 PM	#13 (permalink)
Zdragva Upright Location: Highlands of Scotland	It depedns what they mean by information i guess, if its mass spin charge then thats all the info a blackhole retains anyway so thats kinda non-news, if its actual info then maybe he's on about advanced and retarded waves iv read about, quantum handshakes that require any transaction into the future is met by an equal one going to the past, but thats all i can come up with. btw on space drives there is actually a lot of progress or at least research going on, i know of at least 2 theories for 'warp' drive that are being considered. One is a bubble of spacetime and the exact geometry for one has been discovered by a dude in mexico or something, tho its uncontrollable and destroys space i tihnk :P the other is space like wormholes, which are being searched for by nasa as they think they came out of the big bang and its possible (they say) the mouth was threaded by cosmic string and is open. maybe

08-30-2004, 02:08 AM	#14 (permalink)
stingc Psycho Location: PA	The point Hawking was trying to make was that it is in principle possible for all of information that goes in to be extracted later. It would be extremely scrambled, but all of it would be there. In more technical language, the system is unitary (you might recognize this word from linear algebra). That's very far from saying that you could travel into a black hole and still make a meaningful escape. But who knows what someone will think of in 100 years... An interesting point that most of the media neglected is that there have actually been several people in recent months besides Hawking who have shown the same thing. They all used different methods though, and I don't know that any of them on their own are very convincing. Most people for example do not agree with Hawking's particular method.

08-30-2004, 08:36 PM	#15 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I've been at the edge of my seat (so to speak) about this since I found out about it. Hawking is one of the people I aspire to be like, and I've been doing all I can to try and keep up with his utter genius for years. I have to admit, I never thought he'd go back on this theory (although I always hoped, because of the incredable weight* this discovery might mean). Unfortunatally, I don't see mankind proving this theory in my lifetime, though I can dream. We have to move forward in several areas of quantum physics before we can begin to decode the information floating out there. When I first heard that the International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation is heald in Dublin, I suddenly got this flash of a bunch of the worlds top physists telling really boreing physics jokes over tall lager beers in a pub after the confrence. Those guys know how to have a good time, after all.

09-01-2004, 07:13 PM	#16 (permalink)
locke23 Upright	Thats quite an imagination ARTelivision. Last edited by locke23; 09-01-2004 at 07:22 PM..

09-01-2004, 07:14 PM	#17 (permalink)
locke23 Upright	I look foward to Hawking's new theory. Out of the many years in which the battle between physicists and quantum physicists I have always though that if there was one person in the world who was going to solve the enigma that is a black hole that it would be Hawking. I may have to record the conference and listen to it a few times however; if there is one person in the world who is good at confusing me, it's Stephen Hawking.

09-12-2004, 12:12 AM	#18 (permalink)
Zdragva Upright Location: Highlands of Scotland	Hawking rules i think its amusing tho that unless there is a MARKET for any of this all the great scientific discoveries of our time will remian just that. Even with pre 1970's technology we could be doing so many things now that we just cant AFFORD to do :P iv had idea's and im sure u guys have to, things like saving our planet by setting up our essential yet polluting/dangerous industries on Mars. whats the reason we arnt doingthis? the cost of fuel/ the cost per pound to put stuff in orbit. Not only will we use up valuable fuels to do this today it will also cost billions nay trillions/quadrillions of dollars to do. why must we restrain ourselves in this manner? if we simply had to provide hydrogen/reaction mass to do it it would be done by now, we have a whole universe of stuff we can use but not a whole universe of cash :P anyway enough ranting, id like to see independant companies or whatever doing what our governments are reluctant to do and that is invest in our future. our real future, as a people. In space.

09-12-2004, 11:18 AM	#20 (permalink)
Paradise Lost "Afternoon everybody." "NORM!" Location: Poland, Ohio // Clarion University of PA.	Stephen Hawking - 1, John Preskill - 1. Kip Thorne - ZERO! __________________ "Marino could do it."

09-12-2004, 12:19 AM	#19 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	Black Holes are warps to other galaxies, we could warp to parts of the universe that cannot be reached otherwise, once we have the technology of course....thats my theory .

09-12-2004, 11:44 AM	#21 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	Interesting... A female who's fascinated with stephen hawking, quantum physics, and black holes in space... I would like to re-direct tiberry's question to the OP.

09-12-2004, 03:10 PM	#22 (permalink)
Amarth Loser Location: About 50,000 feet in the air... oh shit.	An interesting philosophy, but the article lacked the specifics. Do you know anywhere I might be able to read more about this?

09-24-2004, 03:58 PM	#24 (permalink)
tspikes51 Fuckin' A Location: Lex Vegas	I'm definately intrigued. Where can I learn more??? __________________ "I'm telling you, we need to get rid of a few people or a million." -Maddox

10-07-2004, 09:41 PM	#25 (permalink)
go-bots Upright	did anyone else while reading this, think in a computerized robot voice?

10-12-2004, 10:55 PM	#26 (permalink)
liqudice Upright Location: chicago	how did his mind change? If there was a publicly known wager of the idea that hawking is talking about what triggered his thoughts to that mindset. did he simply over look the theory in the wager? I dont think he would. but i would like to know what new evidence that he has uncovered to make him jump to the statement that he solved it. Interesting non the less. I would have to dissagree with his area of expertese though, If i were him I'd focus my thoughts on cureing spinal diseases. But My mind is a selfish one. I will definitly follow this thread.