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Old 07-07-2004, 10:06 PM   #1 (permalink)
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If minds started afresh on religion

A hypothetical situation, if everyones memories of religion was wiped totally, all traces erased and everyones thinking had to start afresh with the whole god/who created it/meaning of life debate, religion in essense. What do you think the beliefs of the world to be like, do you think would come up with a god again and in the same form? would there be more atheists or new theories?

This is off the top of my head early in the morning but i think (hope) it makes sense, ill stick some of my comments in once ive thought about it more
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Old 07-07-2004, 10:25 PM   #2 (permalink)
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There would always be people out there looking for answers. Religion would exist.....but probably in different forms.
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Old 07-07-2004, 10:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
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If everyone forgot religion....A new religion would be formed around the person who could explain the most of the worlds mysteries. Thats what I think.
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Old 07-08-2004, 02:09 AM   #4 (permalink)
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If all religion was wiped clean, science would rule all.

Just how it is. However, some tribal religions would still exist probably, in Africa , South America, and some other parts of the world.

Though, I doubt religion would even form again.
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Old 07-08-2004, 03:35 AM   #5 (permalink)
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yes. people would create the same sort of thing again because people are superstitious.
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Old 07-08-2004, 09:53 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Does the question assume that we would start over at the same point in our evolution that we're at right now, or would we revert to a more primitive state?

In the former case, scientism probably would conquer all, as Stare at the Sun suggests.

In the latter case, the primitive mind simply lacks the capacity for critical thinking; so superstition would fill in the blanks and create gods and demons anew, as ART suggests.
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Old 07-08-2004, 09:58 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I once heard the quote:

Quote:
If Jesus did not exist, man would invent him.
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Old 07-08-2004, 10:09 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Religions typically start as being very abstract and open to interpretation. The stories are used as means for discussion. Only when religion becomes a supreme political force does the metaphorical distort into fact-statements. I would imagine that given a chance to start over we would have a spontaneous creation of thousands of religions (given the huge population of the world), that could actually be fruitful. It wouldn't take long for long-standing power-disparities to cause people to rally around their mythologies as means for inspiration and justification for war and we'd be back to where we started, though likely with more variety (rather than several religions with billions of followers). Eventually, it is likely that through war several religions would emerge. An interesting thing to consider is the role of mass media. How would new Gods emerge in the international hypermedia?
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Old 07-08-2004, 12:48 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I think that if such a thing were to happen, we would end up in a much better position than we are today, especially for the first number of generations.

I have no doubt that people would re-invent religion/god, but you would never get something so naive as creationism appearing. "Faith" would be used, as it has been historically, to explain things that are mysterious and things that are too scary to thing about. Science would not be immediately under threat.

So we would probably end up with some mythical being behind the big bang, and an afterlife of some sort. We would probably end up with some sort of universal morality appearing also.

At first it would start out as loose collections of ideas mixing freely, but over generations, those "memes" that worked well together would start conglomerating (meme complexes) and producing individual ideologies, and eventually the dogmatic, stuborn claims of "this is how it is: like it or lump it" would return.

Of course science would also have been developing and undoubtedly it would end up saying something in contradiction to a religious orthodoxy and our eternal tension would return, but probably in a less pronounced way than it is today.
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Old 07-09-2004, 06:15 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Humans feel the need to have "something" that will justify what they do- and to be able to use as a means of defense. Also, humans feel the need to have "something" or "someone" who give them guidance, answers, or to blame for "unfortunate events". Humans will resort back to that, unless we finally decided that what we have now (or if we were to re-develop our conditionings again of religion) does not work.
 
Old 07-09-2004, 11:25 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Assuming that religion and God did not exist, they would resurface.

Some people need to find answers, they can't accept that we don't know why everything happens, and need to find a greater meaning. These people would be the larger group, and those who understand how to exploit the insecurities of the masses would quickly provide answers, elevating themselves to positions from which they could control massive numbers of people for their own benefit.

Lacking a supreme being, those in charge would create a god in the image of mankind, and then tell the people that the reverse is true, that we were created in His image, in order to make them feel special and important. Like our modern Judeo-Christian God, this new God would exhibit characteristics of human imperfection and emotion. This imperfection would allow the common man to grow closer to the false God out of both love and fear. We would eventually have masses worshipping a vengeful, judgemental God who should be followed out of fear of smiting and worldwide flooding, or at least out of fear of eternal torture. He would, of course, be both omniscient and omnipotent, as most people would not understand the contradiction that is created by assigning both qualities to the same being.

After a short time, a few individuals would feel the need to take more power for themselves. They would take their own personal feelings, and delude themselves into believing that they had been given either permission or an order from God to branch off from the group and start their own denomination. An occasional person would do this because they truly believe that the methodology of the initial group is wrong and should be corrected, but most would do it for the sake of creating or enhancing their position of authority.

Some of the subgroups would be more permissive than the initial group, and would allow their members more freedom while keeping a tight grip on those who followed them with the same fear of God's wrath and eternal punishment. Others would be more restrictive, and would condemn all others, threatening those who did not adopt thier more conservative ideology with divine punishment for those who did not convert. Eventually, some groups would stray so far that others would not accept them, even as fellow believers of different denominations.

In the end, the same situation we have today would exist. Different names would be assigned, different beliefs would dominate, but people would hate and kill simply because others would not think the same way.

I know I'm going to upset people by saying this, but looking back at history, and looking at modern times, organized religion has done little more than allow a few people to impose their will on others, divide people and turn them against each other, and provide people with a simple way to deny the truth and shield them from reality when they don't want to accept that some things happen simply because of chance and that they may not be the chosen race of a supreme being.

If you really want to get your head spinning, take in all of that and try to figure out how I believe all of what I just said and still believe that God exists.
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Old 07-10-2004, 08:49 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I agree with a lot of what's been said. I think a big part of all the religion was an attempt to explain what in the past couldn't be explained, hence a lot of allegory. I think it would be very interesting to see what shape religion would take if it didn't need to explain so much. People would definitely be looking for answers about the afterlife, it would be interesting to see if it perhaps took on a more eastern idea?
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Old 07-13-2004, 07:48 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Again assuming that there is NO god then there would be no need to even discuss things. Anyone would be able to do as they please. Murder..... well it wouldn't be murder it would be just like the animal kingdom. Lying, cheating, stealing, killing, raping, and the such would just be regular names for things people do. They would not be crimes or morally wrong as there wouldn't be any real morals. The argument "Who are you to tell me what I'm doing is wrong?" would be used more and more.

Now assuming there IS a God. He would just simply reveal himself to be real or he would just start over with his creation..... better yet, he would NEVER allow this (everyones minds to be wiped of any and all religious/god thinking) to happen from the get go.
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Old 07-13-2004, 11:27 AM   #14 (permalink)
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We would create religion/God as we have a need to feel/believe that we exsist beyond death.
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Old 07-13-2004, 11:32 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
He would just simply reveal himself to be real or he would just start over with his creation
- why would God do that?
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Old 07-13-2004, 11:59 AM   #16 (permalink)
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But seriously -- there will always be things people don't understand. Those things will either require supernatural explanation (God) or scientific debunking.

Personally, I think the more we know scientifically, the more I believe there has to have been something intelligent behind the whole workings of the Universe. Quantum Mechanics is the best evidence for God I have ever seen.
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Old 07-13-2004, 12:11 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sargeman
Again assuming that there is NO god then there would be no need to even discuss things. Anyone would be able to do as they please. Murder..... well it wouldn't be murder it would be just like the animal kingdom. Lying, cheating, stealing, killing, raping, and the such would just be regular names for things people do. They would not be crimes or morally wrong as there wouldn't be any real morals. The argument "Who are you to tell me what I'm doing is wrong?" would be used more and more.
Yes. We all know that all atheists are completely immoral, anti-social people, completely devoid of any kind of morality, and that religion is the sole source of virtue in this world.

Please, give me a break.
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Old 07-13-2004, 01:05 PM   #18 (permalink)
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How does what I typed constitute me saying that atheists were/are immoral, anti-social, or devoid of any kind of morality? It doesn't. Don't imply things that are not there. If god doesnt' exist who are you to tell me that killing someone is immoral? Who are you to tell me that me going out and having sex with whoever I want is immoral?

You guys are speaking from the idea that God/religion are a figment of someone's imagination.

The only reason there is morality is because we have determined what is right and what is wrong. And what do we base that on? The animal kingdom? I think not. Animals kill, mate, and fight over things that aren't theirs. They are not right and they are not wrong. They are not moral or immoral. That's just an animals instinct.

At some point and time in the past some guy had to say that god either revealed himself to that person or god really did reveal himself to that person.

In any case we are assuming that if there was no god that we would be deemed to eventually think about religion. But why? We would have no concept of religion why would that even come into our thought process. We would go back to cave man age when the law of the land was who had the bigger clan with the best weapons.
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Old 07-13-2004, 01:53 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I kind of misread the thread. In my mind it said would we start all over as oppossed to if we did start all over.

I think if we did have to redo the religion/god thing it would be pretty much the same as it is today.

One group would think that their god is correct and another group would probably kill or beat you until you believed their god was the correct god and another group that would say we are all god and god is in all of us and then you would have aother group that wouldn't see a need to believe in god and yet another group that would believe there is a god but that he is pretty much irrelevent to everyday living. Pretty much the way it is now.
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Old 07-13-2004, 02:59 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Religion didn't invent morality.
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Old 07-13-2004, 05:56 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Okay even though in my original post I didn't mention morality yet you keep bringing it up...... I'll play your game.

Who invented morality?
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Old 07-13-2004, 06:09 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Taking it up a level, religions are specific forms of philosophy - and people seek to have some code by which to live their lives. I don't think science provides the guidelines of "how we should live".
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Old 07-13-2004, 06:19 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sargeman
Who invented morality?
It is obvious to me that people did, and continue to reinvent it.
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Old 07-13-2004, 11:11 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sargeman
How does what I typed constitute me saying that atheists were/are immoral, anti-social, or devoid of any kind of morality? It doesn't. Don't imply things that are not there.
You said that if there is no God then the human race would be amoral and animalistic. By saying that, you are implying that you believe that anyone who does not believe in God is amoral and would revert to an animalistic nature in the absence of the morality imposed on us by society.
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Old 07-14-2004, 12:01 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Back to the question at hand, I would argue that the origins of all religions lie in man's desire to understand and explain the world and are the product of his inability to do so effectively, and so I agree that were the slate to be wiped clean, something would be set in it's place with the same fundamental goals reworked to better fit into the context of modern society. To my mind, the bible and other such religious texts were collections of excellent stories to provide primitive man with the answers he sought about the nature of and reason for his existence. He didn't require the weight of evidence that we today would demand to back up such bold statements as "you are here because God created you", because there was no evidence to give. The superstitious traditions of our ancestors were merely educational tools employed to help people make sense of the world in which they lived, occupying much the same role as science today.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that religion already has been reinvented and renamed Science, and it follows along the exact same lines as the religions of old, which, while still held in high regard by millions upon millions of people, are beginning to show a little redundancy in their old age. We're all searching for answers in one way or another, and while our ancestors were willing to accept far more at face value given the lack of any feasible alternative, we're wowed by science's albility to provide reason where once there was doubt. The only thing missing is God, but I guess that's a whole other debate.
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Old 07-14-2004, 05:58 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
You said that if there is no God then the human race would be amoral and animalistic. By saying that, you are implying that you believe that anyone who does not believe in God is amoral and would revert to an animalistic nature in the absence of the morality imposed on us by society.
In that post I said there wouldn't be any morals because why would we need morals? What would be our understanding of morals? Why would we not revert back to our animal instincts?

Again this was a post I made not reading the topic at hand properly. I think the argument of would we revert back to god/religion is a discussion for another topic. I've already led this thread off topic.

Now if someone wanted to start a new thread about not "if" but "would we," then I would expound a little more.
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Old 07-18-2004, 11:30 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sargeman
In that post I said there wouldn't be any morals because why would we need morals? What would be our understanding of morals? Why would we not revert back to our animal instincts?
We would have morals out of the goodness of our hearts. Morality has nothing to do with religion. People all naturally have good intentions. The most religious people I know of are drug dealers turned rappers.

The repression that religion caused has turned our entire lives into a quest for sex. That is pretty animalistic if you ask me.
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Old 07-20-2004, 02:01 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Science would become the new religion. Indeed, it is a religion in that faith is central (no theory can be proven correct, just accepted as such). However, unlike most (if not all) religion, science accepts its own imperfection and thus quests to refine itself indefinitely. Science denounces the idea of "truth" and replaces it with "currently accepted but always questionable" truth.
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Old 07-20-2004, 08:43 PM   #29 (permalink)
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religion would almost be gone because science can offer answers to questions previously answered by religious faiths.

the concept of soul is something very inventive and if wiped from our memories would probably not arise again, given our secularly-centered society, so the concept of what happens after you die would not be pursued past the timely decomposition of your body
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Old 08-04-2004, 07:08 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by braindamage351
Morality has nothing to do with religion.
Well, it has something to do with religionI, but its origins are not found in religion.

Quote:
People all naturally have good intentions.
I would argue that people also naturally have bad intentions. Morality is not all about love and friendship. Many people do bad things in the name of morality as well.

Quote:
The repression that religion caused has turned our entire lives into a quest for sex. That is pretty animalistic if you ask me.
You give religion too much credit. I would argue that our lives have always been a quest for sex. Your ancestors were all successful in that quest. The descendants of those that failed aren't with us today because they were never born. Of course it's animalistic. We're animals. Aren't we?

More generally, I think opponents of religion give it too much credit for all of the bad things that go on in the world. It's always: "If we just got rid of religion, everything would be ok." (Dawkins often sounds this way in his rants about religion. Especially post-9/11. See here for an example: ).

Religion is not the root of all of the world's problems, nor is it the solution.
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Old 08-07-2004, 02:29 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
I know I'm going to upset people by saying this, but looking back at history, and looking at modern times, organized religion has done little more than allow a few people to impose their will on others, divide people and turn them against each other, and provide people with a simple way to deny the truth and shield them from reality when they don't want to accept that some things happen simply because of chance and that they may not be the chosen race of a supreme being.
Well said MrSelfDestruct !!!! Haleluja !!!
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Old 08-07-2004, 12:16 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by sapiens
More generally, I think opponents of religion give it too much credit for all of the bad things that go on in the world. It's always: "If we just got rid of religion, everything would be ok." (Dawkins often sounds this way in his rants about religion. Especially post-9/11. See here for an example: ).
I don't think that Dawkins has ever said that religion is the root cause of all evil in the world.
His position is clear:
A) A lot of the evil in the world is atrributable to religion (either directly or indirectly) and
B) Religion does a lot more harm than good.
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Old 08-07-2004, 08:31 PM   #33 (permalink)
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People would still become heavily dependent on some sort of diety. All constructs of society have had some sort of religion throughout time. The reason being people need the notion that something good, heaven, happens after we pass away. People need some sort of reward as reason to be good in life. This is true of all major religions. The Bhuddists are reborn, the Christians go to heaven, The Egyptians had an after life and etc.
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Old 08-11-2004, 01:53 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by CSflim
I don't think that Dawkins has ever said that religion is the root cause of all evil in the world.
His position is clear:
A) A lot of the evil in the world is atrributable to religion (either directly or indirectly) and
B) Religion does a lot more harm than good.
I don't want to talk to much about Dawkins, but... You are right. Dawkins has never said that religion is the root cause of all evil in the world. I never said that he said religion is the root cause of all evil in the world, but I did say that he "sounds" like that. Very fuzzy language on my part. I should have been more clear. Certainly violence acts are committed that have nothing to do with religion. I'm sure that Dawkins would recognize that. I should not have characterized Dawkins in that way.

I still think that Dawkins pushes too hard that getting rid of religion would reduce evil in the world. Dawkins credits religion as the "underlying souce of the divisiveness in the Middle East", and describes "the devaluing effect that religion has on human life", etc. He seems to characterize religion as an independent causal entity. I don't think that religion is an independent causal entity. It is a human product. (More specifically, a product of the interaction of humans with their environment). I think that if you got rid of religion, you would still see similar levels of violence worldwide.
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Old 08-16-2004, 04:11 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Yes, religion would spring up again, God would reveal himself to the human race, and there will some that choose to devote their lives to Him.
The nice part is, some of the "invented" religions would go by the wayside or forgotten, at least for a while.
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Old 08-16-2004, 05:34 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Ever read the foundation series// Asimov? I think it would go something like that. If religion were to be whiped out, someone would again find it for the purpose of exploitation or control.
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Old 08-17-2004, 10:19 PM   #37 (permalink)
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You speak of religion as if it's an entity. It's not. It's a tool. The people that control society are the ones that used to impose it. In modern times it's been carried generation by generation just because Christianity is like cancer. Once it's rooted itself it can't be taken out. Now it's basically useless. Just an afterthought to keep people going. Politicians only cater to it because it helps them get elected.
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Old 08-18-2004, 08:14 AM   #38 (permalink)
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i think people should learn to believe more in themselves than in some intangible ideal.

even the bible tells you not to pray for a reward, but for the strength to attain that reward.
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Old 08-18-2004, 05:29 PM   #39 (permalink)
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i don't think religion is useless, nor do i think that it's absence would improve things here on this crazy-ass planet. besides, men will always seek truth, and religion is "truth."

i think religion, in its most natural form, helps people realize their true potential. i think it gives people a way to strive to be their absolute best, while contributing the most possible value to society and the world in general.

not that it can't cause problems, when twisted and misinterpreted.. but that mostly seems to occur as a result of theological beurocracy & discrimination. but if religion can convince people to truly devote themselves to achieving world piece & happiness through individual growth & wisdom (such as buddhism does), we should not underestimate its importance in prolonging the life-span of our race.
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Old 08-18-2004, 10:30 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r3ptile
i don't think religion is useless, nor do i think that it's absence would improve things here on this crazy-ass planet. besides, men will always seek truth, and religion is "truth."

i think religion, in its most natural form, helps people realize their true potential. i think it gives people a way to strive to be their absolute best, while contributing the most possible value to society and the world in general.

not that it can't cause problems, when twisted and misinterpreted.. but that mostly seems to occur as a result of theological beurocracy & discrimination. but if religion can convince people to truly devote themselves to achieving world piece & happiness through individual growth & wisdom (such as buddhism does), we should not underestimate its importance in prolonging the life-span of our race.
While that may be true in some stages, I believe relgion as a whole cannot be so easily defined. it evolves. Yes, at first, religion may seek truth but as it evolves, sometimes the truth conflicts religion. People also need to remember the exploitation factor of religion. I also partly agree with the statement that religion is a tool; as i wrote earlier, i think it may be a tool at one point or another but there are always those who are faithful. Religion as a whole cannot be defined so easily but there are several stages we see universal in most religion.



(monotheist) Religion usually starts out connected with science, logic and "truth". You use God to define your universe, the explain things. An example would be St. Augustine in his argument for god through apriori epistomology. religion at this stage is usually hierarchal.


:::Note that i'm generalizing a WHOLE lot and not going into detail. this is merely my outlook on religion based on history which i believe in a sense define a general trend.

Then in between the points, there will of course be exploitation and people using it as a tool. When the exploitation moves to an extreme, it either continues or someone fights back; such as the protestant reformation. This, in christianity, drove religion away from truth and logic --the first adaptation of faith in the form of passion --

Then finally religion moves toward individuality. This i can say is a general pattern. Religion becomes a person-to-person concept emphasising the notion of choice.

This generalization may not be true, or may be even completely wrong but it does demonstrate that religion in its fundemental does change and cannot be defined very easily. This is with the exception of my final point, which is individualism. I believe even if the human race began affreshed, the trend of religion --hopefully-- moves toward an individual basis. //rambling
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