Is a river perfect? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

07-01-2004, 09:39 PM

As I sat, taking a moment for myself while camping last weekend, this thought popped into my head as I observed the river before me.
It flows over uneven patterns of rocks, with dips, curves, and different paces of water flow. It makes a rushing sound in one area, while a trickling sound in others. It is vast with differences and randomness. Yet I thought this-
Water is powerful- no matter what form it is in or how much. But as energy guides it, it can overpower anything. Though there were large rocks and tree branches that have come into its path, it still has not stopped it. If something falls into the river, it will not say "okay, I can't do this anymore, I can't get around this, I give up". The river does not think. It does not need to. It also has no thought of comparison. It does not think that it is better or not better than other rivers. It just flows. What stops water? The only thing that has ever stopped water from flowing is man-made...the dam. And even at that, it finds ways to get through, whether it breaks the wall or drips through. It is unstoppable. The most profound thing is, is that it does not think of doing this- it does not procrastinate, doubt, fear, get angry or frustrated, or give up. It just is.
So what does this say for people? Why can't we see our own reflection in the river as perfect as well? Why can't we imagine that we are, as well, unstoppable? Because we think about it too much, and are infuenced by our surroundings and others around us which makes us feel the need to compare and seperate. Which leads to doudt, fear, frustration, procratination, and even giving up.
We are that river. We are the water that flows. We can be as powerful, if not more, if we choose to be. Do you want to be that river? Or do you want to be the rock in its way?

Namaste.........

Moobie · 07-01-2004, 09:56 PM

I think something very close to what you are saying was a major tenant of Bruce Lee's philosophy. And I totally agree and strive to be like the reed. To bend, to flow.

But there's one aspect of water that I would not like to share. As beautiful and strong as water is, it is equally compassionless. Yes water stops for nothing and even the smallest trickle of water can tear down the largest mountain. But water cares not for anyone. It is the perfect destruction.

While I believe that there are many things that we can learn from nature on how to behave and how we should strive to be, we must not forget that we are made of many parts of all the elements of the world.

And now I'm rambling cause it's late.

Lebell · 07-01-2004, 11:09 PM

Very Tao.

07-02-2004, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moobie
But there's one aspect of water that I would not like to share. As beautiful and strong as water is, it is equally compassionless. Yes water stops for nothing and even the smallest trickle of water can tear down the largest mountain. But water cares not for anyone. It is the perfect destruction.

Yes, true. The river, however, does not think, so it knows no destruction. In the human eye it is destruction, because we have allowed it to be called so in that it destroys homes, kills people, etc. But we can look instead of at the water in its destructiveness and choose to see what we as humans are or aren't doing to avoid letting it be destructive to us.
In the nature's course, it is a cleansing, a renewal, a recreating of the flow. It's natural. If we were to take away every person on earth, we would not think of the water as being destructive, would we?

Quote:

While I believe that there are many things that we can learn from nature on how to behave and how we should strive to be, we must not forget that we are made of many parts of all the elements of the world.

Yes.

Moobie · 07-02-2004, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by :::OshnSoul:::
Yes, true. The river, however, does not think, so it knows no destruction. In the human eye it is destruction, because we have allowed it to be called so in that it destroys homes, kills people, etc. But we can look instead of at the water in its destructiveness and choose to see what we as humans are or aren't doing to avoid letting it be destructive to us.
In the nature's course, it is a cleansing, a renewal, a recreating of the flow. It's natural. If we were to take away every person on earth, we would not think of the water as being destructive, would we?

Ah, but because the river does not think it is able to be ceaseless and unyielding. Our ability to think is both our boon and our curse. How often have you thought that life would be much simpler if you didn't think so much?

Don't get me wrong there are many aspects of water that I admire. As it destroys it also creates. It can smooth the jagged peaks of mountains. From a plain in can gouge a valley. Not only is it the cradle of life it also has the ability to take it all away.

Xell101 · 07-02-2004, 07:14 PM

It is only destruction because you are not water. Water is water, therefore it does not think, it can only be water. It is not a creator or a destroyer, it is water, water can always be trusted to be water. I could also call it all powerful. What it is, it utterly is, and what it is not does not exist to it, within it's realm of existence, it cannot be stopped, for it invariably will do what it will do and be what it is.

pinkie · 07-02-2004, 08:20 PM

I think trees are perfect. They are the ultimate grace because they are the unconstrained givers. They represent age, time, and beauty, with roots, branches and rings. All three symbolically and perfectly signs of germination, expansion, and fruitfulness. They are the perfect martyrs. They ask nothing in return. They bend and flow. Every part of them is useful. They define selflessness.

wilbjammin · 07-02-2004, 09:52 PM

It's very metaphorical, is what it is...

I'm curious why there is such a focus on perfection. Am I the only person that doesn't spend time in my life worrying about perfection? Humans procrastinate, doubt, fear, get angry or frustrated, and occasionally give up... and so what? I allow myself to be human, I grant myself anything under one condition - that I know that I have chosen it. Rivers don't choose, and that is where we are fundamentally and radically different from rivers.

Understanding, of course, that metaphors are a major mode of "spiritual", "enlightened", philosophical and theological thinking, engaging your environment with abstract thinking is a good way to engage yourself. Personally, I have no judgement on the rock or the water. They both have their place. Neither would be the same without each other.

John Henry · 07-03-2004, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by :::OshnSoul:::
The river, however, does not think, so it knows no destruction.

Neither does it know perfection.

Very nice poetry, though.

07-03-2004, 04:28 PM

^^^ But what I am asking of us all is

What IS perfection? That is the question. If every river is different, does that mean that all are perfect, none are perfect, or is there one or some that are perfect? What IS the definition of perfect, when we all share different views of what perfect is? No one fully agrees on what is/isn't perfect and why and what defines perfection in something....So do we see it as nothing being perfect or everything being perfect? What decifers perfection and who claims what the definition of perfect is?

raeanna74 · 07-03-2004, 06:14 PM

A river carries more of it's destructive aspect when it takes on too much. Takes in too much water from rains and run-of. If we take on too much we can become destructive. I myself find that when I take on too much that I begin to push, snap at, and erode the joy of those around me. When I'm stay within my limits/banks I provide nourishment to those growing around me and I can slowly refine the rocks in my way sometimes even turning them into beautiful creations. Moderation in all things is very good advice.

ARTelevision · 07-03-2004, 06:43 PM

What's nice about a river is that it is what it is.

What's too bad about people is we have these concepts like "perfect" - whatever that means. And we hold significant things like rivers up to the measure of our insignificant words and concepts.

powerclown · 07-03-2004, 08:15 PM

Quote:

What IS perfection? That is the question. If every river is different, does that mean that all are perfect, none are perfect, or is there one or some that are perfect? What IS the definition of perfect, when we all share different views of what perfect is?

Why the preoccupation with 'perfection'?

Assuming you are referring to rivers as people, metaphorically, and whether all are perfect or not, or to what degree they might be or not, people are just people. There are countless examples of people possessing characteristics running the entire spectrum of our consciousness, from perfect to worthless. We each pick and choose what we need and value for ourselves and carry on in our own way. Don't you think?

The tricky part for some is when the mind completely objectifies the world, at the expense of life, emotion, humanity. For example, I have heard the field of photography described as simply (and to some, exclusively) capturing visible-spectrum lightwaves onto a photo-sensitive medium, and scientifically or intellectually that may be accurate. But I believe its possible (and healthy) for even the most analytical to be moved on an emotional level by such "scientific" phenomena as a photograph.

If you were not speaking in a metaphorical sense, please disregard the above.

roachboy · 07-03-2004, 09:14 PM

i ran across a quote that seems appropriate here:

"aesthetics is to poetry as ornithology is to birds"

it comes from an essay by anselm hollo, but i dont remember if he is quoting someone else. anyway, it provides a more elegant response than i could to your question.

wilbjammin · 07-03-2004, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by :::OshnSoul:::
^^^ But what I am asking of us all is

What IS perfection? That is the question.

Why?

07-03-2004, 11:47 PM

Because it is a deep, pondering question to get us all thinking. As you see in my original post, I shared my truth about it. Yet, I did not want to make it so clear that I was sharing it, so that I could get other minds crankin' and seeing how others respond. It felt like such a wonderful topic.

Powerclown- I'm reitterating to you what I said to wilbjamiin....re-read my original post. It's not a preoccupation with it. I know my truth on this, I just wanted others to share theirs.

Quote:

What's nice about a river is that it is what it is.

What's too bad about people is we have these concepts like "perfect" - whatever that means. And we hold significant things like rivers up to the measure of our insignificant words and concepts.

Beautifully put.

Mantus · 07-06-2004, 10:12 AM

But we are like the river. The river and humanity flow through time.

The difference is the paths we take. The river is a simple construct that follows very basic rules - to take the path of least resistance to get to the lowest point. Humans are much more complex. Our destination is questionable and our options to get there are infinite.

Procrastination, doubt, fear, anger, frustration and surrender are all part of our path. When you experience any of these you don’t stop moving, you simply change directions.

When a river chooses to move around a rock, isn’t that giving up? The river has no choice; it must move around the rock and in time the rock will be swept away. We have a choice to push the rock. We use doubt and fear to test if it’s worth the effort. We use anger to give us strength. If in the end we give up, then we move around the rock. Eventually some one else will come along and summons the strength to sweep it away in the tide of humanity.

On the subject of negative qualities that are mentioned in the original post: One must remember that the idea of a weakness is subjective. Anger can be an obstacle or help us get around an obstacle. Surrender can give us a chance to face other obstacles. Friendship can lead us astray or help us keep going. Everything has a flipside.

mkdsctt · 07-07-2004, 01:28 PM

And to think i signed up to this website for the Titty Board... :-D

braindamage351 · 07-18-2004, 11:35 PM

Everyone always preaches that we should get back to nature, but life as a thoughtless animal is about as pointless as it gets. We should appreciate our humanity. It's all we have.

Mantus · 07-19-2004, 10:33 AM

No. People preach that we should get back to nature. But we are nature. Our cars, the highways; our guns, the bombs, the homes they destroy, that’s nature. We are just an advanced animal, as natural as it gets. No one looks at an anthill and says it's unnatural - so why do they think that when they look at a mall?

07-19-2004, 11:46 AM

to add to Mantus-
everything is made up of the same thing- energy. And the nature we see (as trees, grass, dirt, etc.) are of the purest form. "nature" just flows to the rhythm of energy- as humans can tend to reject, force, or abuse it.

macmanmike6100 · 07-20-2004, 01:56 AM

I heard an interesting thought that many things flow similar to water, albeit over far longer periods of time. Buildings, for example, are analogous to boats...rather than float on water, they 'float' on the ground.

If anybody knows more about this, please show us, for I'm too tired to look up the concrete theory of fluidity in solids.

tiberry · 07-23-2004, 06:07 AM

That is so beautiful and inspirational. Can I have your permission to send that to the team of folks I manage? Yes - I'm serious.

jaypc2 · 07-28-2004, 05:43 PM

read a book called sidheartha.... that river methaphor is used in the book

clavus · 07-28-2004, 06:17 PM

jaypc beat me to it. So instead of quoting Herman Hesse, I'll whip out a little Lao Tsu -

Water seeks out the lowest places. Its humility is what gives it power.

Nothing is more gentle or yielding than water, yet for overcoming the hard and unyielding, nothing can beat it.

07-01-2004, 09:39 PM	#1 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	Is a river perfect? As I sat, taking a moment for myself while camping last weekend, this thought popped into my head as I observed the river before me. It flows over uneven patterns of rocks, with dips, curves, and different paces of water flow. It makes a rushing sound in one area, while a trickling sound in others. It is vast with differences and randomness. Yet I thought this- Water is powerful- no matter what form it is in or how much. But as energy guides it, it can overpower anything. Though there were large rocks and tree branches that have come into its path, it still has not stopped it. If something falls into the river, it will not say "okay, I can't do this anymore, I can't get around this, I give up". The river does not think. It does not need to. It also has no thought of comparison. It does not think that it is better or not better than other rivers. It just flows. What stops water? The only thing that has ever stopped water from flowing is man-made...the dam. And even at that, it finds ways to get through, whether it breaks the wall or drips through. It is unstoppable. The most profound thing is, is that it does not think of doing this- it does not procrastinate, doubt, fear, get angry or frustrated, or give up. It just is. So what does this say for people? Why can't we see our own reflection in the river as perfect as well? Why can't we imagine that we are, as well, unstoppable? Because we think about it too much, and are infuenced by our surroundings and others around us which makes us feel the need to compare and seperate. Which leads to doudt, fear, frustration, procratination, and even giving up. We are that river. We are the water that flows. We can be as powerful, if not more, if we choose to be. Do you want to be that river? Or do you want to be the rock in its way? Namaste.........

07-01-2004, 09:56 PM	#2 (permalink)
Moobie Insane Location: baked beans	I think something very close to what you are saying was a major tenant of Bruce Lee's philosophy. And I totally agree and strive to be like the reed. To bend, to flow. But there's one aspect of water that I would not like to share. As beautiful and strong as water is, it is equally compassionless. Yes water stops for nothing and even the smallest trickle of water can tear down the largest mountain. But water cares not for anyone. It is the perfect destruction. While I believe that there are many things that we can learn from nature on how to behave and how we should strive to be, we must not forget that we are made of many parts of all the elements of the world. And now I'm rambling cause it's late. __________________ Obscenity is the crutch of inarticulate motherfuckers. We like money. Give us your money you stupid consumer whore.

07-01-2004, 11:09 PM	#3 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Very Tao. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

07-02-2004, 09:52 PM	#8 (permalink)
wilbjammin * * *	It's very metaphorical, is what it is... I'm curious why there is such a focus on perfection. Am I the only person that doesn't spend time in my life worrying about perfection? Humans procrastinate, doubt, fear, get angry or frustrated, and occasionally give up... and so what? I allow myself to be human, I grant myself anything under one condition - that I know that I have chosen it. Rivers don't choose, and that is where we are fundamentally and radically different from rivers. Understanding, of course, that metaphors are a major mode of "spiritual", "enlightened", philosophical and theological thinking, engaging your environment with abstract thinking is a good way to engage yourself. Personally, I have no judgement on the rock or the water. They both have their place. Neither would be the same without each other. __________________ Innominate. Last edited by wilbjammin; 07-02-2004 at 09:59 PM..

07-03-2004, 06:14 PM	#11 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	A river carries more of it's destructive aspect when it takes on too much. Takes in too much water from rains and run-of. If we take on too much we can become destructive. I myself find that when I take on too much that I begin to push, snap at, and erode the joy of those around me. When I'm stay within my limits/banks I provide nourishment to those growing around me and I can slowly refine the rocks in my way sometimes even turning them into beautiful creations. Moderation in all things is very good advice. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

07-02-2004, 07:14 PM	#6 (permalink)
Xell101 Junkie	It is only destruction because you are not water. Water is water, therefore it does not think, it can only be water. It is not a creator or a destroyer, it is water, water can always be trusted to be water. I could also call it all powerful. What it is, it utterly is, and what it is not does not exist to it, within it's realm of existence, it cannot be stopped, for it invariably will do what it will do and be what it is.

07-02-2004, 08:20 PM	#7 (permalink)
pinkie Helplessly hoping Location: Above the stars	I think trees are perfect. They are the ultimate grace because they are the unconstrained givers. They represent age, time, and beauty, with roots, branches and rings. All three symbolically and perfectly signs of germination, expansion, and fruitfulness. They are the perfect martyrs. They ask nothing in return. They bend and flow. Every part of them is useful. They define selflessness.

07-03-2004, 04:28 PM	#10 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	^^^ But what I am asking of us all is What IS perfection? That is the question. If every river is different, does that mean that all are perfect, none are perfect, or is there one or some that are perfect? What IS the definition of perfect, when we all share different views of what perfect is? No one fully agrees on what is/isn't perfect and why and what defines perfection in something....So do we see it as nothing being perfect or everything being perfect? What decifers perfection and who claims what the definition of perfect is?

07-03-2004, 06:43 PM	#12 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	What's nice about a river is that it is what it is. What's too bad about people is we have these concepts like "perfect" - whatever that means. And we hold significant things like rivers up to the measure of our insignificant words and concepts. __________________ create evolution

07-03-2004, 09:14 PM	#14 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i ran across a quote that seems appropriate here: "aesthetics is to poetry as ornithology is to birds" it comes from an essay by anselm hollo, but i dont remember if he is quoting someone else. anyway, it provides a more elegant response than i could to your question. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 07-03-2004 at 10:17 PM..

07-06-2004, 10:12 AM	#17 (permalink)
Mantus lascivious	But we are like the river. The river and humanity flow through time. The difference is the paths we take. The river is a simple construct that follows very basic rules - to take the path of least resistance to get to the lowest point. Humans are much more complex. Our destination is questionable and our options to get there are infinite. Procrastination, doubt, fear, anger, frustration and surrender are all part of our path. When you experience any of these you don’t stop moving, you simply change directions. When a river chooses to move around a rock, isn’t that giving up? The river has no choice; it must move around the rock and in time the rock will be swept away. We have a choice to push the rock. We use doubt and fear to test if it’s worth the effort. We use anger to give us strength. If in the end we give up, then we move around the rock. Eventually some one else will come along and summons the strength to sweep it away in the tide of humanity. On the subject of negative qualities that are mentioned in the original post: One must remember that the idea of a weakness is subjective. Anger can be an obstacle or help us get around an obstacle. Surrender can give us a chance to face other obstacles. Friendship can lead us astray or help us keep going. Everything has a flipside.

07-07-2004, 01:28 PM	#18 (permalink)
mkdsctt Upright	Very neat metaphor And to think i signed up to this website for the Titty Board... :-D

07-18-2004, 11:35 PM	#19 (permalink)
braindamage351 Insane	Everyone always preaches that we should get back to nature, but life as a thoughtless animal is about as pointless as it gets. We should appreciate our humanity. It's all we have.

07-19-2004, 10:33 AM	#20 (permalink)
Mantus lascivious	No. People preach that we should get back to nature. But we are nature. Our cars, the highways; our guns, the bombs, the homes they destroy, that’s nature. We are just an advanced animal, as natural as it gets. No one looks at an anthill and says it's unnatural - so why do they think that when they look at a mall?

07-19-2004, 11:46 AM	#21 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	to add to Mantus- everything is made up of the same thing- energy. And the nature we see (as trees, grass, dirt, etc.) are of the purest form. "nature" just flows to the rhythm of energy- as humans can tend to reject, force, or abuse it.

07-20-2004, 01:56 AM	#22 (permalink)
macmanmike6100 High Honorary Junkie Location: Tri-state.	I heard an interesting thought that many things flow similar to water, albeit over far longer periods of time. Buildings, for example, are analogous to boats...rather than float on water, they 'float' on the ground. If anybody knows more about this, please show us, for I'm too tired to look up the concrete theory of fluidity in solids.

07-23-2004, 06:07 AM	#23 (permalink)
tiberry Insane Location: Location, Location!	That is so beautiful and inspirational. Can I have your permission to send that to the team of folks I manage? Yes - I'm serious. __________________ My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.

07-28-2004, 05:43 PM	#24 (permalink)
jaypc2 Tilted Location: south east	read a book called sidheartha.... that river methaphor is used in the book __________________ Zero Cool stay sexy

07-28-2004, 06:17 PM	#25 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	jaypc beat me to it. So instead of quoting Herman Hesse, I'll whip out a little Lao Tsu - Water seeks out the lowest places. Its humility is what gives it power. Nothing is more gentle or yielding than water, yet for overcoming the hard and unyielding, nothing can beat it. __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.