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Old 07-05-2004, 11:02 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Hey folks, haven’t been here in a while.

Roadkill. It’s quite simple.

You exist because you are self-aware.

The mistake is thinking that flawed perception equals lack of existence. The fact that one cannot know the true state of one's existence doesn’t mean one does not exist. In the end you are obviously something because you are aware of something.

Lets say you are part of a dream. If you discover this fact, you will not stop being real, you will simply change your state of self-perception.

Other people are just as real. I may be human, A.I., demon or a part of your imagination. On this forum I exist simply as a “poster”. My “true” nature is irrelevant unless we interact in other ways. If we were to meet and you all found out I was an A.I. running from a desktop then I would not cease to exist but your perception of me would change.
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Old 07-06-2004, 08:43 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by xepherys
How does this prove what to who?

Three people, A, B and C.

A poses this very question that you did roadkill.

B is SuperJay

C is me.


A dies and B goes to A's funeral...

A is dead and therefore learns nothing of this.

C is not there and learns nothing either.

B makes the ASSUMPTION that A once existed but can no longer prove it.

C knows not of A or Bs existance.


Nobody is any the wiser.
It proves that B "me" was not a figment of A's imagination. Now, since you said that C does not know about A or B then I cannot be a figment of his imagination, so I must exist.
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Old 07-06-2004, 07:24 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SuperJay
It proves that B "me" was not a figment of A's imagination. Now, since you said that C does not know about A or B then I cannot be a figment of his imagination, so I must exist.
Hey, and you didnt die, so you're happy
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Old 07-07-2004, 09:36 AM   #44 (permalink)
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If I am me, and you say you are me, and I say you are they and you say I am here and we agree that we are both here how can we counteract two non-existential agreements to say we are not here thus proving we exist.

Or something like that.
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Old 07-07-2004, 09:09 PM   #45 (permalink)
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What is existence, what is real? If i read your post you only exist to me as a poster, with the assumption that you are a human sitting at a computer behind it. I think therefore i am, if i perceive things, they exist, even if only in my mind. So even if i dreamt you up and you where never in this thread, you still existed as a thought of mine.
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Old 07-08-2004, 03:43 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Courtesy of Merriam-Webster "a: to have real being whether material or spiritual <did unicorns exist> <the largest galaxy known to exist> b : to have being in a specified place or with respect to understood limitations or conditions <strange ideas existed in his mind>
"

In this context I do not need to prove my "existence". I percieve my own thoughts and actions in my mind. If nothing else I exist in my mind which I realize could simply become a mirror within a mirror but at that point the discussion is completely pointless. Even if I'm only shadows on the cave wall I still exist as a shadow, a representation of something else, either an idea or a physical reality. Either way, I exist, other exist in the same way. I can interact and respond to them if only in my mind. I will continue to do so until my physical being or shadow is destroyed.
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Old 07-08-2004, 08:14 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Would it be correct to say that the problem lies in the language itself and not in the actual question?

How about, "Everything exists, nothing is real"

"Exist:To be as a fact and not as a mode; to have an actual being, whether material or spiritual."

"Real: True; genuine; not artificial."
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Old 07-08-2004, 10:00 PM   #48 (permalink)
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The question "Can you prove your existence?" should always have a positive answer. Yes, I can prove I exist. I don't have to provide the proof, because it is by definition correct. If I was wrong and I did not exist, then I could not be wrong because I never existed.
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Old 07-17-2004, 10:11 AM   #49 (permalink)
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For you to think, there must be substance that you link up with, therefore you exist.

to prove that others exist they must effect your life in some way.

for all i know i could be sitting here talking to myself on my computer as long as it does not affect anything i do, like go to the movies tonight with my girlfriend.
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Old 07-17-2004, 11:13 AM   #50 (permalink)
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My old french teacher told us one of her stories from college, told us that her friend was taking a psychology class and the final exam had one essay question: Prove you exist.

Her friend wrote:
"By grading this paper you verify my existence".

She got an A+
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Old 07-17-2004, 01:43 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Frankly I don't care about proving my existence, as long as I'm moving onward through "life" in a way that makes me happy and content, I won't worry on whether or not proving my existence is possible, for it's not necessary.
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Old 07-18-2004, 09:16 PM   #52 (permalink)
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You should read the whole Descartes essay (Is it an essay?).

"I think therefore I am" is just the tip of the iceberg.
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Old 07-18-2004, 09:38 PM   #53 (permalink)
lascivious
 
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"I think, therefore I am" is such a flawed statment.

I never understood why people dont use "thought, therefore existance" as a translation for Descartes' "cogito ergo sum".
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Old 07-19-2004, 07:08 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Because cogito is a verb conjugated for the first person singular, rather than a noun, and latin allows for understood subjects, which English does not.
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Old 07-19-2004, 07:45 AM   #55 (permalink)
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i think there for i am, but if i dont think, am i not?
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Old 08-01-2004, 11:53 PM   #56 (permalink)
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if you have a dream, and in this dream you are another person, does this person exist; is this person real? how can you prove that you are not simply someone else's thoughts, and exist only as long as this greater form of existence makes you exist. Any thought you have could be attributed to whatever it is that is dreaming you.
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Old 08-02-2004, 07:22 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by asaris
The "I think therefore I am" argument is invalid. From the premise "I think", all that can be concluded is "There is thought". That being said, there's no need to prove one's own existence or the existence of anyone else. It's self-evident.
What is meant with "I think thereforefore i am" is that he is human because of his ability to reason, and to think.

What sets us as humans apart from animals is our ability to think. We are the only creatures on earth with a concept of ourselves. We know we are human and we think about being human.
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Old 08-02-2004, 11:02 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Location: St. Louis, MO
i exist therefore i think in circles.
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Old 08-03-2004, 01:31 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SuperJay
It proves that B "me" was not a figment of A's imagination. Now, since you said that C does not know about A or B then I cannot be a figment of his imagination, so I must exist.
But it doesn't prove that A was a figment of your imagination, and since C was illreavent to A or B then C didn't affect any of it.
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Old 08-03-2004, 10:07 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Location: OH, USA
I can prove mine, I just can't prove yours...
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Old 08-05-2004, 07:56 AM   #61 (permalink)
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You seem to be stuck in a position one step beyond solipsism. I have not seen this one before.

Simply put, you know you exist because your ability to actually question that demands it.

Proving that anything outside your own awareness exists is somewhat tougher but I suggest we get you out of this one and into solipsism/radical skepticism first
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Old 08-07-2004, 08:37 PM   #62 (permalink)
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To the people in the future that you will meet, you are non-existant. If someone were to show you or anyone the name of their future spouse, that's all they would be, a name, not a person, not anything. People become real as you encounter them for all your lives' intents and pourposes.
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Old 08-08-2004, 10:25 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by sw1pe
i think there for i am, but if i dont think, am i not?
"A implies B, therefore not A implies not B" is faulty logic.
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Old 08-29-2004, 03:03 AM   #64 (permalink)
Insane
 
i drink therefore i am drunk
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Old 08-30-2004, 01:30 AM   #65 (permalink)
Insane
 
if i think you don't exist then you don't correct?
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Old 08-30-2004, 02:02 AM   #66 (permalink)
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I don't think I exist. But the IRS disagrees.
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Old 08-30-2004, 11:44 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Location: Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Heretic
Not sure you need to prove you exist. If you can't tell the difference it doesn't matter.
Bravo!

As much as I love philosophy, the question of how to prove one's existence is a silly one. Anybody who claims they can't figure out whether or not they exist needs a slap in the face as their only answer. No need to mess around with Descartes (mis-)quotes.

Of course, the question is mostly posed to escape from the paranoid exceptions. "What if I'm just a part of someone else's dream?" or "What if I'm in a giant computer simulated reality (like The Matrix)?" What does it matter? Does your reality change after asking the question?

No, it doesn't. Even if you were part of someone's dream or imagination you still wouldn't be able to fly. You still have to pay your bills or else your power gets shut-off. Murderes won't get freed because their victims didn't technically exist.

There are many more interesting ethical & moral questions to ponder about that actually may make a difference in your life.
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Old 08-30-2004, 08:54 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Location: Southern Cali
The only way i could prove it to myself is. When I step into traffic, people honk and avoid me. Therefore i exist to other people.

If this is a dream state, I think the fact that I even ponder such things as this is sufficiant enough evidence to myself that I exist. If I dont actually exist, and this is a dream state, I deal with complex enough issues on a day to day basis to make myself feel whole, so either way I'm happy with where I am.

Sorry if this isnt that... on point right now.
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Old 08-31-2004, 12:22 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Location: Berkeley
No, I can't prove my existence. I can establish that I am aware of my self, but I can't prove it to another self, or prove that any other self is real.

But really, it's just a lot less painful to apply Occam's Razor and assume that you and everyone else around you are tangible, distinct and contiguous. I'm with Unright.
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Old 08-31-2004, 05:48 PM   #70 (permalink)
Insane
 
Location: Austin, TX
What is "proof"? I leave fingerprints, I have my own DNA, I work a job, I live in a house, I pay my taxes, so, at least in the eyes of the good old US of A, I exist. I've also done my fair share of drugs, had several out of body experiences while hanging from hooks in my back and my chest, and have had visual and auditory hallucinations on several occasions, so don't take my word for it.

Honestly though, I think I exist if only for what I've experienced and endured. My body is almost completely covered in tattoos, scars, brands, piercings, implants, and modifications and I've felt and endured every one of them. I've suspended more times than I can count, and once while performing in a show I hung over 500lbs on 2 hooks in my back. I've sat through many many many hours of excruciating pain including having my tongue split and my penis filleted open (look up "subincision" or "meatotomy"). you'd think that if this existance was all a dream then I'd have woken up from it already.

Jason
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Old 08-31-2004, 06:30 PM   #71 (permalink)
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i know that this post isnt real, i mean the page is dark, the letters are white, but still I know there is not yet a cure for cancer. i think i'll live here and now and leave it at that!
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Old 09-08-2004, 08:24 PM   #72 (permalink)
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If i didnt exsist then what would I be and why would i be here and why would i just be some dream that goes on and you get older in your dream and its so complex, dreams arent that complex, and they dont last as long as life does. It just wouldnt make since for this to be a dream, do you think when you die you just wake up? ANd then what? I mean something has to exsist for the dream to be there right?
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