spanking kids doesn't do anything except fuck them up.

time-outs are harder, but more effective.

now, spanking grownups can be a whole lot of fun, that's the subject of another forum.... ;)

I was spanked as a child..my mother used her hand until she broke one of her fingers because of a sea shell I had forgotten I had in my back pocket when I was 5...after that I had to go pick my own switch from outside...and whoa be unto me if I came back with a small one...I have great respect for my parents and never feared them..unless you count the..."my mom is gonna kill me if she finds out" thoughts you have as a teenager.

I have an 11 year old daughter...I have spanked her less times than she is old...I ALWAYS used my hand though because that way I know when its time to stop...when you use another implement as my mother did, you have a tendance to do it longer than needed, I found 3 swats of the hand to be sufficient (because I know if my hand is starting to hurt so is her little butt)...time out never ever worked for her as she very quickly learned to make a game out of it. Now that she is getting older things such as grounding, restricting activity work much better and I dont see the need to spank one that is the age she is now.

Good comments sexymama!!!

My wife and I never spank our kids (6 & 4 years old). If you spank a child, they may grow up believing that hitting is an acceptable way to resolve conflicts. My advice is to punish by taking away rewards or toys ("No video games because you hit your sister....")

Well, I'm only the parent of one, a little girly, but from what I understand, assuming that all children are alike is foolish. Not that any of you are foolish. There are a lot of good points here. I look at it like this, but only for my child, this may not work for other kids.

Sure, we want to teach our children that hitting people for the hell of it is meaningless. At the same time, however, if somebody hits my little girl, or tries some sick crap with her, I think I'd be proud if she beat the shit out of him/her.

I think from the time a child is born you are unable to reason with a child through logic and decision making. Then, their entire childhood is a long transition from that to full blown reasoning adults(we hope).

I never question another parents technique in the hopes that they will leave me to my own devices in child bearing. Because of this I am able to be more consitant, and I believe being constant is the key. If, at home, a child does something wrong and you spank them, but in public they do the same thing wrong and you let it slide so nobody sees you spanking you child, then the child gets mixed messages about the spanking.

My little girl is two and is getting to where she can understand things like, "You do blah, or you do blah." Then she makes the choice accordingly and I enforce it. For instance, "You pick up your toys and place them into the toybox, or you stand with you hands on the wall until I say you're done." At this point if the hands come off of the wall I will, without hesitation or guilt, smack her hands or butt until she realizes that she has made the less enjoyable decision.

I believe it is always best to give a choice and to delineate between what is right and what is wrong, but when a child takes an action not given in one of the choices, I'd hope that any parent would step in and physically force the child to redirect its attention to the chosen option. Otherwise the child has won, and knows a weakness in the system.

That was long winded, and I hope it made sense. One last thing.

I've not seen much here about positive reinforcement. This is my favorite. For instance I walk into Wal-Mart(my favorite store) and say to Carisma, "If you do exactly as I say while we are here, then you can ride Garfield when we are leaving. Ok?" She always agrees. However, not always does she hold up to her end of the bargain. If, even once, she gets out of line I tell her now she doesn't get to ride garfield. As we are leaving the store, despite her efforts to exploit my weakness to "I love you"'s and kisses on the cheek and aside from all the begging that she promises to be a good girl and wants to be my best friend I still do not let her ride. CONSISTENCY! I told her the stipulations and held her to them. Sometimes it breaks my heart to do so, but I really think that is where success lies.

On the flip-side, when she does do well, and get to ride garfield or whatever enjoyable event, it makes me very happy to see her enjoying herself as a result, and she is also very proud of herself.

Herk

As I see it (as a parent of 9 yrs) there is a fine line between discipline and abuse . . . as has been stated above, if emotion (ie, anger/frustration) is removed from the disciplinary process it is the call of the parent in question. Different children respond to situations differently. My eldest son when smacked would either laugh at you and let you know it didn't hurt, or howl like a banshee with its head cut off . . . either way you couldn't win.

Having said that the odd smack never hurt me (in the long run).

S

I have a 13-year, old and have spanked her a total of 3 times her entire life. One of those times she was three years old and had climbed out onto the roof from an open window on the second floor of an old house. It was a total reaction on my part, and I wanted her to know, “NO!” It was so scary.

Two other times were when she was older, and was throwing a serious temper tantrum. She quickly stopped throwing those, of that magnitude anyway.

Besides that it’s been “Time out.” It has always worked. I can still tell her to this day, “Go to your room,” and she goes. Sometimes there’s an argument, but more punishment comes with those too, so…

All and all I’m pretty blessed I think. :)

Coercion is something I will never agree with in child rearing. Children should learn from the consequences of their own behavior. Therefore, I find setting healthy boundaries, and sticking to a reasonable, non-physical form of discipline is usually the healthiest choice. Children need to be aloud to make the wrong decisions, and learn from their mistakes. There can always be exceptions to this rule, but normally, trial and error are the best tools towards achievement oriented development.

Well, I'm glad if one can raise a child without it, but I do not understand how.

The times I was referring to were when despite what you tell your child they continue to do what they were doing wrong. You can tell them, "Go to your room... time out.... dang it time out," but if they continue not listen to you, what next.

My only point is that sometimes the chance for non-physical solutions come and go. Then your left with a kid who did something wrong, maybe worse.

"No Johny, don't go outside or its time out... No, don't run away from me or its off to your room... No No don't run out into the road or you're grounded.... hey... .... o shit"

I happen to think that "NO" is the most important thing for a child to learn to keep you sane and them alive. So if they test the boundry of "NO" hell yes I will physically dominate by force(coerce) them if need be.

I have to add that I, as a child, was never spanked, save one fluke incident, and I like to think I turned into a properly functioning member of society. At the same time, my parents have told me that of the five they raised I was by far the easiest, and the others got spanked. Thats just a testament that all children react differently to different stimuli.

Thats just me though. There is no counting to 3 for my little girl. She gets one chance to do what I say.

Pinki, aside from a slightly different outlook about physical punishment and when to implement it, I don't think I could agree with you more completely. Children learning from their own mistakes, right on. Allowed to make wrong decisions, absolutely. Good stuff.

Herk

I hear you there.

About the other; A long time ago, when my daughter was in day care, and we first started using the dreaded, "time-out" I asked her teacher the same question, "How do I get her to stay on time-out? She always gets up, and runs the other direction!" She told me, take the child to her room, and ask her to sit on the bed, and stay on time-out by herself. Tell her she has a choice, she can either stay put like a big girl, or she can have Mommy help her stay put by sitting on her. (not hard, or in a rough manner) Just not allowing them to get up on their own.

All it took was a few times with my daughter having "help sitting" before she was sitting on time-out, with no help, all by her choice.

Best advice anyone ever gave me besides, “Don’t lie to your children,” and “Let them make their own mistakes.” :)

Damn straight with the honesty too, however you've made my point. :)

Mommy sitting on her is not a metaphysical thing. That is exactly what I am talking about. Physical demand where needed, not to hurt, but rather to persuade.

Cheers,
Herk

Ah, but she had a choice... ;)

I think that you and I have inadvertently come to agree. :)

We sure did. :)

That's a very interesting point. My wife and I have been discussing this very issue and are both leaning towards no spanking. I like your take on it and will let her know. Makes good sense.

It was OK by me for my younger kids, but I used it very sparingly.

I never did it when I was angry, or even mildly upset. I never mixed my emotional reactions with my parental discipline.

I used it only for situations where it was clear that my kids could never, ever do it again -- like running into the street, injuring a sibling, etc.

I also used it for lying. That was the hardest for me to do, but my kids are smarter than I am, and one of them needs boundaries every day, it seems, to keep on the straight and narrow.

They are preteens now. I can't remember the last time I spanked them. But I think it can clear the air in a disciplinary way very quickly when needed.

My brother, my two cousins, and me were spanked as kids. By my grand mother when we deserved it. We were spanked with a fly swat or what we nicked named the "switch tree" the bush by the back door. It had long vines that grew out of the main bush. We always got them on the behind. Occasionally we were spanked with her hand. Weal so got spankings from our parents.

Well we all turned out fine. None of us went to prison. In fact our parent got spankings also.

We only got them only after we were told to stop and when we deserved them. Like tearing off tag on clothes, running through the clothes on the round racks of clothes, pulling clothes off the tables, knocking over games and puzzles, etc.

We are not afraid of any of them, to this day. We never had bruises left on us, EVER, Also, the last time one of us got one was when were 12 and the was 15 years ago. The youngest of us is 27 now.

Interesting. I just read through this thread and I'm glad I've had 19 months of experience as a parent to draw from.

20 months ago I would have said "NO SPANKING", but I've come to see, as Herk mentioned, that physical intervention can be very useful. Having said that, I can honestly say I've never spanked my son (and don't intend to). But I certainly have grabbed, pulled, sat down and otherwise physically grappled with him in order to 'enforce' (for lack of a better term) the direction he has been given.

So I wouldn't strike him to use pain in order to create a deterrent, at least not yet, but I'm not averse to using my power and size as a bigger person to demonstrate the certaintly of the instructions I give him from time to time.

Thanks for the opportunity to think about that.

I really don't think spanking is a good idea. All it did was piss me off when I was a kid.

I can't disagree more. My little girl is 6, and she's never been spanked. Everyone she's stayed with has said she's the most well-behaved kid they've met. Yes, we talked about things with her from very early on. She's been scolded lots of times. We save the loud/stern voices for when it's called for, and it really gets her attention. She stand in the corner on occasion. She's had toys taken away for hours or days. Things like that are plenty effective. I can't imagine intentionally hurting her.

worked on me!

seriously, spankings (on the ass, only) were highly appropriate when I was too young to have reason (before kindergarten?). taught me not to throw a tantrum in the store really quickly, at the very least.

i think new parents are afraid of spanking because they think it's excessive...well, it can be, but you're not trying to kill the kid, just a couple of reasonable spankings to get the point across that "<insert behavior> = bad"

Braindamage351...thats what it was supposed to do...still pissed off? Or are you being good now?

i have a 4 year old who doesn't need to be spanked anymore. some thoughtful correction early pays off huge later on.

the one peer i have who has stayed with the idealistic, p.c., pre-toddler game plan of never laying a hand on their child have a 5 year old monster on their hands.

The trouble with spanking is that you set up a bad precedent in the kid's mind. "When someone does something bad, hit them hard and often to make sure they won't do it again."

Then people wonder why kids fight.

hit them hard and often to make sure they won't do it again.


-hard and often is clearly child abuse. that's not what i was writing about.

A couple of thoughts... I was spanked, not beaten, I turned out to be a productive citizen. I have spanked, they have become few and far between now, the kids are 8 and 10 now, and well behaved. They are able to reason and there are far more creative ways of discipline (cleaning, writing sentences, push-ups) that are far more hated than spanking and productive at the same time.

The other thought that bothers me is that countries or governments have the power to tell the citizen how to raise their child. Freedom is something not to be taken lightly, this is a prime example.

I personally would not want to hit my child. I would rather have my husband do it. If they are really bad (disprespectful, obnoxious, rude, or just bad in those senses) then I could see pulling out the belt or wooden spoon. I think intimidation is the key to getting a kid to listen and shut up. And that doesn't have to be by hitting. It could be by being their friend and then when something goes wrong in anysense then letting them know you mean business by out smarting them... or getting in their face.

That has been my belief ever since I was at the age to be spanked. My mom used to spank/hit us out of anger, rather than out of punishment, and all that did was make me grow an on-going hatred for her, which has evolved into me not caring for her in the slightest sense even today. I know that if she spanked me for good reasons, rather than just because she was pissed off at the world, I would've grown a respect for her rather than hatred.

I was spanked as a child and I'm VERY HAPPY my mother did it. I never did the same thing wrong twice. This timeout thing, to me, is a joke. "Go sit in the corner Johnny and think about what you did" Come on, how many of ya'll would have seriously sat in the corner and thought about what you did wrong? Few children view timeout as a serious punishment. At first, timeout can be useful, but then the child realizes that it's no big deal and could continue the behavior. Nobody wants to gets spanked. Thus, the child won't misbehave as much.

I turned out just fine by the way!

Got no problem with spanking. I must note that there's a big difference between spanking and beating.

I would just like to add one small thing (since I've already posted my opinion)

I was spanked and I can tell you I have never ONCE thought of hmm how do some of you keep putting it...."they may grow up believing that hitting is an acceptable way to resolve conflicts." yeah....I never remember thinking...wow I dont like whats going on, Im going to hit this person....Im 36 and I've hit someone exactly twice in my entire life....so that argument doesnt hold water with me

I have a 1 yr old daughter that I will never spank because she is my daughter but I will leave that to my wife to spank her because I can't bring myself to do that...but I do spank my little brother who is 21 years younger then I am...spanking is a healthy thing to teach the kid discpline and it is far different from hitting...hitting is something done out of anger/frustration/rage where spanking is to discipline and teach.....it all depends on the kid though

I have tried the time out thing and it has no effect on my little brother and spanking is starting to do the same but what I found out is that he doesn't like to be pinned against something...IE...lay him down against the back pillow of the couch and sit in front of him so my back is holding him between the pillow and myself and that makes him listen....may sound mean but when he grows out of spanking and timeouts its time to try new things....

Dont blame society for the outcome of kids, blame the parents......it all starts with the parents and society only helps contribute when the parent sux ass at parenting IMHO..

bonehed, bite the bullet and spank her. If you don't, the kid will begin to associate punishment with just the mother. Both parties should spank, or neither should spank.

Another good rule of thumb: Whichever parent thinks the kid needs a spanking should NOT the the person spanking them. The other one should do the spanking, to assure that it's done moderately and not out of anger or parental fear.

Spanking is a huge issue right now in psychology. There is much debate. Recent empirical research does indicate that children who are spanked have higher levels of aggression even when other variables (e.g., SES, Race, Gender) are held constant. Kids who are spanked are more at risk to learn aggression than those who are not spanked. However, many people (including myself) were spanked as children and turned out just fine. When I was spanked, it got my attention. Spanking can be useful when immediate compliance is necessary because the child's actions are dangerous like running in the street. But, spanking will only reduce problem behaviors. It will only tell the child what not to do, but it doesn't tell the kid what he or she should be doing instead. That's why spanking should never be used in and of itself. If you do use it, make sure the kid knows why he/she is getting spanked, and make sure the kid knows what he or she could have done to not get spanked (good activities). Just my thoughts and definately feel free to disagree,

Lpj8

A spanking is discipline not abuse.If you are mad when you go to hand out the punishment thenyou need to stop breathe and then react. My mom used to say that she spanked me everyday to keep in preactice. lol My 1 yar old son knows his boundaries and mine and he knows hat when he's crossed them that either his hand or his butt is gonna get spatted. And though 'm not sposed to kaugh at him I do cause he just gets this look in his eyes that says that he knows he's got it coming.

Spanking belongs in the realm of the sexual. Unless you think it's okay to get sexual with your children, then I think you know how I feel about spanking them. Corporal punishment of any sort is an absolutely dismal method of socializing a human being.

Discipline should not be condensed to spanking or not spanking. I think it involves so much more than that, as sexymama and others have commented. Positive reinforcement, clearly laid out limits, informing your child of the consequences of his/her actions, etc...spankings can be included in that. But it's not always necessary for every child. I have one child who only requires a frown to straighten up. When mine were small I did spank when it came to safety (running in the street, fingers in light sockets, etc). And for being, for lack of a better word, defiant. (My other son once threw a cup at my mom when he was two. I spanked him for it.) But we don't just spank. As they have grown older other methods are more effective and much more disagreeable for them. Which is the point isn't it? To make the behavior unappealing? To teach them self control...etc...

To depend on any "punishment" alone is going to be ineffective period. Teaching your kids to behave isn't about just "punishment". At least I don't think so.

My wife and I found a great resource on Child Discipline. The title is DQ Factor. I'm not sure of the author right now. In one chapter, the author states that for certain personality types (or perhaps all, I don't remember), spanking was like 20% effective whereas isolation (being sent to their room) was 90% effective. In just about all personality types, the author suggests to use natural consequences where the child's health and well being is not at stake. He relates a story of a mother who's daughter poked around and was consistently late for school. The mother instituted a policy of, "We leave for school at 7:30 regardless of what state you are in." That means, if the child is still in her pajamas, she goes to school in her pajamas. If she hasn't finished her breakfast, then she'll have to wait for lunch.

The wife and I have begun to implement more of this type of discipline and have found it to be rather effective thus far. As for spanking, the wife and I use it as a last resort. What we call spanking is typically a few (3 or less) swats to the gluteous maximus, normally with the hand. My 3 year old is still in diapers, which take the sting out completely and eliminate the risk of bruising. Even though it doesn't hurt him, he get's the point. Now, my wife has not found spanking our son to be effective. Come to think of it, I haven't spanked either of our older children (4.5 years and 3 years) in several months. I've threatened, but have not needed to follow through. I really don't like doing it. When I do, it's because the child has done something where I am not willing to let the natural consequences come about (the child could get seriously hurt), is normally due to direct and willfull disobedience, or the child is completely hysterical and needs something to bring them back. Now that I'm thinking about it, perhaps a splash of cold water in the face would work better for the hysterical child... But when I just told him/her to not do something and they look me in the eye and do exactly what was just forbidden, they are just asking to be disciplined. The author of DQ Factor attributes disobedience in children to a certain insecurety. The structure provided by a loving parent helps to provide the security that the child needs.

The long and short of it is that spanking has been proven by research to be considerably less effective than other forms of discipline. Some creativity on the parents' part is helpful. There are some situations where a spanking is completly unneccesary, like killing a house fly with a shotgun. A swatter would get the job done without all the messy collateral damage.

I'm a new dad with a six month old, so obviously no discipline problems yet.

However when I get to the situation where discipling is required I really do hope I can 'think' before reacting. The quickest and easiest solution is to react instinctively, whether it be physical (smack) or mental (yelling). If I could take a deep breath, relax for 5 seconds and then proceed to explain his actions or as some other people have pointed out other forms of resolutions, it'll be better for all.

At times it will be hard, as you can get angry, embarressed, irritated etc, but I hope I can just react in the right manner.

Spanking begins where parental skills end.

-

Off the subject...what's with all these kids being diagnosed with ADD these days? Back in my kiddie days a coupla decades ago there wasn't much talk about ADD. Of course we were hyper and up to no good - we were kids for Christ's sake! Now you need to pump them full of Ritalin and shit and get them counselling.

If two six year olds play "doctor", is that statutory rape? Or are we still allowed to learn things from sources other than CD-ROM and DVD?