Two things I never thought would go together..
 

Well, in my random searching of the web, I found something I find mind boggling beyound believe. Christain Goths. Yup.
http://www.christiangoth.com/
Never thought I would see these to things grouped into one. I MUST find some music of this style to see what it sounds like. I just can't wrap my brain around it.

It's an oxymoron just like Christian Metal.

I poked around trying to find out if the webmistress was cute.

I'm so going to hell.

good call pimp. Just like christian rap.

I feel exactly the same about Christian Punk.

I definitely disagree. Every "goth" person I've ever met has been extremely kind and genuine...fits perfectly with being Christian.

There are also christian ravers-
http://www.christianraves.com/viewfo...c4d902061dd037
http://christianravers.net/
http://www.tronster.com/homelife/200...net_Jesus.html

so, ya, why not?

Umm...

I'm Goth.... and i'm Catholic.

Half Roman Catholic, actually. I attend Mass pretty much every Sunday. I pray daily.

I assisted with my mom's religious education classes at church for many years... even had my own class, 2nd-graders, for 2 years. Second grade, for those not familiar, is the grade in which the children are taught two of the Sacraments in the Catholic Church. Basically, these are two important events in a Catholic's life that they take with them to church every time they attend Mass the rest of their lives. Very important. Turns out I just hate kids too much, couldn't keep doing it.

I can appreciate the fact that while the majority may be Pagan (which is not the same as satan-worshipping, btw), Wiccan, agnostic or atheist, or some other religion or faith system, it is not necessary to make commentary to the effect that it is unnatural or inappropriate to be both Goth and Christian.

Most of the ones I know are. The ones that aren't are no more a percentage of the whole of Goths than regular asshats are in "normal" people numbers.

I can see the relationship between the crucifixion and scarified, brutalized, accoutrements of torture laden fashion.

I mean they are both all about death as a way of life aren't they?

WTF?? Glow sticks for God? Wow. It's just very hard for me to fit what normally seems to be a drug based counter culture with the whole "Up with God" attitude. Maybe I'm being a bit narrow minded here, but just about every raver and goth I've met would piss on a cross before haveing anything to do with main stream christianity. "Wow man, God is so great. Let's do some X and go to church." Nope, can't see it.

First of all, how in the hell does drug use have anything to do with God? I'd love to see that argued.

Secondly, how does your limited knowledge of / exposure to such people factor in the way the "people" are in general?

I'm sure you've met a lot more Goths than you know about, because many of us don't look the part 24/7. The ones that do are obviously a bit more hardcore about it, and therefore more openly opinionated. And maybe they're playing it up a little for you. Can't tell you the number of times i've been dressed up and someone makes a comment to me about it. I play it up real well.


Perhaps opening up your mind and your eyes a little more would help... just a thought. :)

No, but I can see where disagreeing with two life choices others make can make comparing them incorrectly rather easy to do.

Just personal opinions....

My personal grudges against religion - especially Catholicism - are well documented here. It's not a lack of understanding in that instance - it has to do with my "education" received at the hands (literally) of religious zealots. I won't be changing my low opinion of it too soon.

My opinion regarding Goths is based on the impressions I receive from their fashion statements.

The comparison I drew was intentional as both seem to me to celebrate garish displays of death worship.

I would generalize Christianity as a celibration of the defeat of death. The key theme is that through Christ's sacrifice, our sins are cleansed and we can live forever.

By contrast, Goths seem to focus on the very thing Christianity won over; death.

I'm not understanding the connection at all.

Yes Peetster, you're right, of course.
But to my way of thinking in order to conquer something, one has to focus on it.
I probably would have been more clear by speaking of death orientation and not death worship.

Oh, I'm not saying there is one.

The thread starter made it sound like they are strictly contradictory of each other, that no Goth could be a Christian. I am simply saying that a person very well can be both.

Well there mate, there is this little thing I like to use called sarcasim. Now, I know that it isn't seen around these parts much, but the comment that you are thinking about there was just that. Sarcasim. The point behind it being that God and doseing up on drugs have NOTHING in commen with each other, unless you are A: talking about a differnt religoin the Christianity, or B: Part of some really weird Christain off shot cult. Anyway, I'm sure if you reread it, and note the comment "Nope, I just can't see it" at the end, then you'll understand my point.

Well, being around the goth scene for a little over 10 years I'm sure I have no fucking clue what so ever about it. :)


In a lot of ways I still am goth. I've detached myslef from most of the scene becase, well, it's gone to shit. While I like a lot of his music, I blame Marlin Manson. His fashion sense is kind of painful to look at sometimes. The over all goth scene used to be a good group of free thinkers and a lot more in line with punk, now it's over loaded with Anne Rice vampire wannabe's who "want to be differnt just like everybody else" walking around in frilly black lace and talking like they are in a bad movie. "Fear me, for I am the night". I shit you not, one of these little punks said this to me. I almost pissed my pants laughing at him. Now, there are still a good number of old school goths about, who have nothing to do what so ever with these rathere amusing people that populate the goth clubs today, but they are not the ones I'm queastioning here. Wow, I'm really going on a rant on this one, aint I?


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA...
laughing with you, not at you... lol. Sounds like something I just said to a coworker not to long ago. For some reason it just makes me laugh haveing thouse words fired back at me.

Anyway, let me clarify a few things here so people are a little clearer on my stance. First, if I sound a little high strung here, it's be cause I am and elitist egotistical bastard, but my comments are in no way meant to be a personal attack on any one.

The Goth/christian clash as I see it is directed at the newer "fear me for I am the night" goth scene. It has been pointed out here that there is a lot of death/suffering/ect. in christianity that could make it apealing to the goths, but end message of light and love ect. of christianity once you get past the part of it being the worlds largest blood cult does not go well with "I wannabe a vampire" crowd.
Shit, I am tired and my brain is slowly melting down on me. I'll finish with the point counter point when I am more awake. But, I am really enjoying this convo. Till next time.

How can we exploit culture to sneak in some hegemonic evangelism?

Oh yes, Goths and Ravers, those are groups we haven't targeted yet!

What makes a person a goth?

Well


It seems pretty clear to me why people who worship a God of Love would take a drug that gives you an overwhelming sense of love, but there you go. There are monks who advocate the use of ecstasy by their acolytes in the belief that it opens up a path to God.

Link

As for Gothic Christians, that's nothing unusual or new. Look at the Neo-Gothic era. Although the architechture they were copying was only mockingly nicknamed "Gothic" in the Renaissance, the people who adopted the style in the design of their cathedral architecture and so on would have been quite aware of the comparison and were most definitely Christian. No bones through the nose, perhaps, but that's another matter...

I really have very little knowledge about the "Goth" lifestyle. Personally though I was raised a conservative protestant Christian. I am now a swinger and while my religious upbringing doesn't line up presicely with my lifestyle (I am still hashing that out) I have not totally denied all that I once believed. I believe some of the basics yet. It's the portion of my former faith that dictates your lifestyle that I don't hold to any longer. There are so many variations of every religion. Ranging from ultra-conservative to extremely liberal that I can see aligning any kind of lifestyle with Christianity.

I am curious as to what exactly they do believe though. Interesting.

That's what people think. "raves" are not drug-based, but there are those who feel the need to take drugs to stay up so that they can have the energy.
Nowadays, the people who are doing the drugs just to do them at parties shouldn't be there anyways! They are between 13-18, the majority of them. All my friends don't do drugs and they simply enjoy the vibe of the music and dancing. If they were to make raves 18+, you'd know that it isn't just about the drugs.

Anyways, raving is for anyone who simply enjoys being taken away into the beats and who love to dance the night away. True "ravers" (i don't like using that word, really) know that.

how tru! I even hung out with a few back in High school and one just wouldent put down the books that are part of the bible but not in it... what are those books called IE book of Noah stuff like that... great people to talk to about realigon.

You are part right, I think. I know a good number of people, well, new, they got kicked out of the navy and sent home, that just couldn't get past the drug part of the whole "rave" culture. It's not an soical area I've hung out with much, so I won't get as pissy about them as I go some others, but so far what I've seen has left me with a less then favorable out look on raves. I know not everyone does the drugs and gets stupid like some of the people I've met, but, just knowig that those people are there has left me with a scewed veiw of them.

As Noahfor asked, what is a goth? What defines gothyness? heh, unless one of the criteria to be a goth goes against the thinking of christianity then of course, you can have a christian goth. To my part i know little of goth ways other than the whole culture thing of listening to certain types of music , victorian/dark clothes etc, which is obv a lifestyle choice and doesnt stop you being a goth. I hear they are known to contemplate death(?) a lot, but ive never known goth to be a religion, and as others have said, if they can be athesist / pagan etc, why cant they be christian/buddist/islamic or whatever other religion they choose ---- its late so forgive me if im babbling

Hey, nothing wrong with babbling. i do it a lot myself. I'm not really saying that it is a combination that shouldn't or can't happen. It's just kind of like Rob Zombie and Linel Richie oing a song together. I just can't wrap my head around it. While goth isn't a religion, it does seem to run counter to christianity in mind set. I'm all for upsetting the statis quoe, but this is one that does baffle me. I REALLY want to find some mp3's from this music scene though.

Thats not that shocking. "Goth" isn't what it used to be, just like "punk". Kid's who believe they are goth these days (those kids!) just dress the part. I am a christian and call my self a punk. Christian Edge.

Well, goth does seem to be a joke to me, for reasons I've explained higher up in the posts. I do so miss old school goth, pre "fear me, for I am the night" pretty boys in black.....

I was going to say something similar to this, but add, that "Goth" is just a music type and style. Same with Metal. There are evil and good sides to everything. You can't generalize a belief system or faith with music and style, that just doesn’t work.

Or how about the consevative punks?

http://conservativepunk.com/

I'm a little curious about the goth scene myself. Is there some core set of principles aside from religion and politics that makes one goth, or are the clothing and musical styles the only common bond?

From the people I've encountered, it seems to be that they enjoy expressing themselves by wearing Goth clothing, but very few I've met have actually been hardcore in the sense they fit the harsh stereotype. Music and songs just words set to a beat, or lack thereof, but it's amazing how much meaning and associations our society places on that.

There is no such thing as a goth. Just people who like dressing up in black. Calling themselves goths doesn't make them goths.

That just proves my point. Punk is just a label now.

I'd have to agree with that. I've met many goths that are Christain and/or Catholic. There are a few out there that do fit the steriotype (steriotypes are created by being true for someone, though normally not the majority). But most of them don't fit the steriotype.

As far as the Christain Ravers go, I think that's really cool! I'm Catholic and I love techno, dancing to it, clubbing, and really want to go to a rave sometime, but just haven't had the time or known where and when they were at. I don't do drugs or anything, so why should I avoid raves because of a stupid steriotype of raves being all about drugs?

Bullshit. Metal is just music, that's all, music. It is the lyrics and become droned as a steriotype that give it a "hardcore" feel to it. Although you can play any kind of music and add whatever feel you want to. You could even make Satanist classical. It's just not socially common or an association of Christians and something "goth" to come together.

I'm with you on this one. My cousin was in a christian metal band. Hard and hevey music. Singer had that deep gavely voice that meant you couldn't understand a word he said. Great stuff to head bang to.