damianjames

I initially wanted to post this in Tilted Politics but decided against it, since this is a question of a more basal human feeling rather than one of political party.

I had a pretty interesting discussion with a friend today about why prostitution is illegal and why pornography is not. This stems from an adult video store that has just opened close to where I live. She thinks it should be closed on any technicality that can be found, and the owners railed out of town.

A preface... I think pornography is not harmful (all things in moderation of course) and actually helps with day to day stress relief. Prostitution, well, in today's atmosphere of STDs and unscrupulous people with little respect for life, I can do without it. Arguments could be made on both sides for either of them harming relationships with those you love, but thats for a different post To each their own I say.

The main thrust of my friend's argument (she is opposed to both) is that there is no difference between either of them because money is being exchanged for sex.

Breaking this down, with prostitution a person pays another person to have intercourse/oral/whatever sex with them to bring them to orgasm. Conversely, in an adult video, sex show, etc., both participants are paid to bring them to orgasm. This also being displayed for others rather than being private.

I didn't really have a great supporting argument for legality, other than there would most likely be several more homicidal maniacs running around if pornography was illegal. I also made the point that all the people involved are being paid, rather than just one person out of two. A third party is also handing out the money.

She came back with the idea that because pornography is people in video or print being paid to have sex (a straightforward case of prostitution) it should be illegal.

So where is the line drawn? Or maybe more specifically, why was the line drawn? I'd love to see what you all think here.

*Edited for grammar*

__________________
Visualize Whirled Peas.

sexymama

Interesting questions. Imho, I believe both should be legalized. If prostitution was legalized, it would most likely be safer, better managed, and a good tax source.

Both can hurt and/or enhance relationships -- depending on how they are used and viewed by the people involved. Lebell and I visited a Brothel when in Nevada visiting my dad. We enjoyed a tour of the place. The girl giving us the tour said that the majority of their clients are couples. Although we did not partake in sexual activity, it was a great turn on and lots of fun! It was also very clean.

__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

bermuDa

what about the sites where guys with cameras go out by themselves, pick up women and pay them for sex? Other than the man profiting off it more than the girl he fucked, is this much different than prostitution? Is the difference because the the man was soliciting someone who wasn't originally out on the street to sell her body?

I guess the big difference between the two is the motivation behind it. If the transaction is intended for the prostitute/gigalo's profit, then it's prostitution. I suppose this means if the John wants to film the deed for their own pleasure then it's still prostitution. If the motivation is the solicitor's profit, then it's pornography.

Either way I see it as selling one's body... but I also think that's their decision to make, and legal or not they're going to do what they want. I agree with sexymama that if it were legalized, prostitution would be safer and cleaner (and the taxes, fudghettaboutit!)

__________________
I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

CSflim

I can see no convincing argument why prostitution should be illegal.
If you don't want to have sex with a prostitute (I certainly don't), then don't; nobody is forcing you.
If you do want to, you're not hurting anyone, (except maybe your self and your wallet). I don't see that the law should be there to make people's decisions for them.
If want to sell your body, again, the only person you are going to hurt is maybe yourself.

The law should be there to protect me from the actions of other people, not to make my decisions for me. I am old enough to make up my own mind on such things.

As for the prostitution is degrading for women argument: Nobody is forcing these women into this job. It is their decision and nobody elses.

As for the prostitutes get mistreated argument: Well this, if anything is an argument for legalisation of prostitution. The reason that there is so much abuse in these areas is due to its connection with crime. If a prostitute is being mistreated, who is she going to go to? The police? Her Union head?
If prostituion was legalised, a much healthier, safer environment would be available to these women.

__________________

fnaqzna

I was with ya, right up to this point.

I don't believe this for a second. Is there some sort of psych study to support this perception?

bermuDa

I guess he meant that some men would go out trying to act out their fantasies if they couldn't view them in the privacy of their own home... I don't see where homocide fits in though... maybe blue balls leads to murderous intent?

__________________
I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

Yakk

How Pornography became legal is sort of relevant to this discussion.

Typically people prosecuted Pornography under the 'indecency' laws. However, in California, some DA decided to go after them for Prostitution.

See, showing indecency is actually pretty hard. But, the DA figured, showing they exchanged money for sex was easy.

The problem was, the law stated that prostitution was an exchange of money for sex and sexual pleasure.

And, in pornography, none of the parties involved in having sex are doing it for pleasure. They are doing it for money. So, there is no exchange of (money) for (sex and sexual pleasure).

Or, at the least, the DA failed to prove that such an exchange occurred.

In effect, the fundamental difference is:
Prostitution involves paying someone to have sex with you for your pleasure.
Pornography involves paying someone to have sex with another for your pleasure.

__________________
Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

damianjames

Just my attempt at a lame joke

I was trying to illustrate how for many people viewing adult material is a great stress reliever.

An excellent comparison. Thank you!

__________________
Visualize Whirled Peas.

bermuDa

Just to clarify, If you hire a hooker to fuck your friend and you watch or claim it was for your own pleasure, that's pornography?

__________________
I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

hannukah harry

would you be my friend?

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

qtpye4u84

I think they are the same, because they both get paid and they can all get STD's or AID's and spread them. But even ppl not in that buisness can get STD's or AID's too.
Porno is safer for girls in the sense of not getting killed or raped.

__________________
The QTpie

tiberry

por·nog·ra·phy

n.

Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal. The presentation or production of this material. Lurid or sensational material: “Recent novels about the Holocaust have kept Hitler well offstage [so as] to avoid the... pornography of the era” (Morris Dickstein).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[French pornographie, from pornographe, pornographer, from Late Greek pornographos, writing about prostitutes : porn, prostitute; see per-5 in Indo-European Roots + graphein, to write; see -graphy.]


Someone had to say it. Since when does pornography HAVE to be people having sex? A picture of a naked male or female can be considered pornography. Or, depending on the pose, background, or other subtle nuances - art.

I suppose though, that the context of your question surrounds "hard-core" sex videos at the adult movie store - so we're dealing with the graphic depiction of sexual intercourse.

The huge difference to me is very obvious: In prostitution, you are paying someone for physical interaction - a much more "personal" or intimate encounter for the sole purpose of your sexual pleasure. Something that's probably illegal for the "ethical" willies it gives most people..."How can you be so cold as to pay someone for something so special?"

Porn is much less "personal". You payed to WATCH someone having sex for your personal sexual pleasure. That probably doesn't include a *live* performance, as that would be very hard to differentiate from prostitution because of the more personal interaction.

Porn is just far less "human" in terms of personal contact and intimacy....prostitution is personal.


Sooo - to counter your friend within the context of your argument -

Porn = Purchasing graphical representation of sexually stimulating material.

Prostitution = Purchasing intimate (physical) interaction for the purpose of sexual stimulation.

__________________
My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.

Publius

Interesting post. I don’t have much to add really other than to say that in some other countries in the world, they have the exact opposite debate going on. Prostitution is legal (in controlled environments similar to Nevada) whereas pornography is illegal. Also, often times we believe that pornography is some sort of modern problem, whereas if we look at history it is almost as old as prostitution itself. Personally I think that both should be legal (prostitution in controlled environments of course).

Really, though, what is the difference between going out and paying for a hooker for sex or taking a girl out on a date, buying her dinner, flowers, and whatnot, with the expectation that she will give you sex at the end of the night? Or worse yet, going down to the local bar and picking up a girl there after buying her a few drinks so that you can get into her pants? At least with prostitution both sides are on the up and up and (at least in a controlled environment) the chances of contracting STD’s are reduced.

Yakk

Dunno. Try paying both your friend and the partner for having sex, and recording it so you can sell it to a third friend. That would be the same as "pornography".

__________________
Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

vdublover

Pros•ti•tute n.
1. Somebody who receives money in return for sexual intercourse or other sex acts.
2. Somebody who uses a skill or ability in a way that is considered unworthy, usually for financial gain

I think we have to look at the definitions. If we hold true to the definition of prostitute, we can see that an adult film actor is indeed a prostitute. They are receiving money for sexual acts. If you look at the second definition, you will see that many of us are indeed prostitutes, depending on what we do for a living. If you do something that requires absolutely no skill, and you have your job and are only using a talent that most other people are gifted with, then you are a prostitute, too! But I have to say, there is pornography, and there is good pornography. Perhaps professionally it trancends into an artform, where there is actually talent (and attractive people), from a couple people just trying to make a buck.

roadkill

Dang hard call here.

I'd have to opt for there being not prostitution for the reason that is the chick/guy who ever is the prostitute has a higher risk of getting killed kidnapped ect. and thats not right....

However I do think that pornography is necessary in our world. I think this is necessary because some people can't find a 'match' and are rather lonely, like me, and we do still have sexual urges now a prostitute would 'feel' a lot better but i think thats wrong on my low moral base but, I do like still being able to release those urges w/o starting at a wall to do it if you know what i mean, or have seen American Beauty.

gondath

Dating can even be considered prostitution in my book if a guy pays for the gilr in the hopes of receiving sex in return. Even established couples bribe their partners on Valentine's Day to get sex back.

kalashnikov

I just use free porn (thank you titty board and a few other reliable sites on the net!)

No fees or STD's! You know it's true, because it rhymes.

__________________
'Charmant, respektlos, und immer betrunken.'

rsl12

i did often wonder about this issue. thanks for bringing it up. and thanks yakk for the good answer.

__________________
oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

NoSoup

Interesting discussion...

I have a little tidbit to add...
Unfortunately, I can't find a link to the article, but I remember reading something about this studio being set up where customers could go and pay to make their own pornographic video. The interesting part is, they could hire "actresses" that were at this studio, and could star in it themselves.

I know that it was brought up in court as prostitution, but legally, nothing could be done about it, as it was being taped for viewing - it didn't matter who was in the video, and the "actressess" were paid for their time, doing what they do in the industry.

I believe that it was eventually shut down for some B.S reason, zoning, or something, but it managed to survive quite some time as a make-your-own-porn studio for quite a while...

gondath

There's another porn site out there that calls on members to get involved with the pornstars but without shelling out any more cash than the subscription fee. I can't remember the name of the site. This is more my style. All porn should be interactive.

MageB420666

My main question is:

It's legal to fuck, and it's legal to sell, So why is it illegal to sell fucking?

Pornography is protected by the constitution, Something called the First Amendment if I recall correctly. And before you go and say that the founding fathers did not mean for pornography to be included or protected, just remember that Benjamin Franklin was infamous for being a smelly womanizer.

__________________
Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

MageB420666

And all the main arguments made against pornography and prostitution are based on morals, which are based soley in religion, and both should therefore be protected by the First Amendment.

I say that the morals in this case are based on religion because pornography and prostitution do not harm anyone in and of themselves. Yes a prostitute can be beaten or murdered, but so can a convienience store clerk, so does that mean we should shut down gas stations?

__________________
Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

la petite moi

Both should be legal. It's obvious that people will still do both even if it's illegal, but it will not be managed well and people can get diseases (prostitution). However, if they were both legal, things would probably be better organised.

gondath

Hear, hear. Lets start a movement for the mainstreaming of prostitution. A whore in every house can be our motto. Oh wait, I think that's already an American motto. Ah well.

sekm

i find debating legality to be silly

the way i see it, morals are like laws that an individual imposes on themselves, a societies laws in a democracy should then be in line with the morals of the majority.

thus in my mind, there are reasons for individuals having a moral stand, but there are no reasons why a law should be passed against the morals of the majority.

but i guess thats not really the point youre trying to address.

pornography and prostitution are significantly different, i liken it to the difference between murder in a movie and murder in real life. while noone actually dies in the creation of murder scenes, id imagine most of the arguments against porn are due to the content rather than whether the people actually had sex or not.

legalising prostitution is a double edged sword, similar to recreational drug use.

on the one hand you have increased safety of the people already involved, increased tax revenue, and its easier to impose regulation on something thats legal, than to try and stamp out something thats illegal.

on the other hand, it also makes these activities more accessable, more prominent, and more 'normal'. these objections however are based on morals of the individual, others may not see the 'negatives' bad things.

which comes right back to what a law should mean in democracy, its a majority decision, not a matter of debate.

Jynx

**warning warning tangent ahead warning warning **

actually, debating legality is the very heart of democracy! otherwise, how would we change the laws? in order to remove the old laws, they must be discussed and debated, and only then can we find the true consensus and change the law to fit the new majority consensus.

** we now return you to your regularly scheduled topic. **

excellent points have been made, but at the heart i think that the two are very similar, and both should be legal.

__________________
Truth is independant of Belief.

josobot

A man wondering in the woods chances upon seeing an amorous couple in a clearing. He tells his friends and they also see the couple, when they return on another day. Alas, the couple decides indoors is better. The man being a merchant, has the great idea to hire a couple and charge admission. What makes the former rather innocent and the latter rather unhealthy?

yatzr

I watched a documentary on Ron Jeremy and he talked about how for the longest time (until 10 years ago or so) selling and distrubiting porn was legal, but making it was not. He said there were several studios that got shut down because paying the actors and actresses was considered prostitution.

The way they got it legalized is pretty interesting though. Their argument was this: Two men fighting violently will usually end both men up in jail. Put gloves on those two men and then you can charge admission and neither man gets in trouble. By comparing it to several things like boxing, they made people realize that making porn is no different and shouldn't be illegal.

Also, I don't know if anybody mentioned this (I didn't see it anywhere) but isn't prostitution legal in Nevada or maybe just Las Vegas? I thought it was and that they tax the hell out of it and it does very well.

__________________
Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

KnifeMissile

Interestingly enough, prostitution is legal in Nevada but is not legal in Las Vegas! The city of Las Vegas passed a by-law that made it illegal which, for some reason, supersedes the state law allowing it...

Whiteout

Before you head to Vegas to rail a young sex monger, thought you should know that prostitution is NOT legal in Las Vegas (I know from personal experience). It is legal in some Nevada counties though.

yatzr

that's crazy about las vegas. Thanks for the warning ...doubt I'll ever need to worry about it though.

On a side note...another reason why prostitution hasn't been legalized more over could just be that no politician wants to be the man (or woman) that legalizes it. Pornography is obvious because of the 1st ammendment, but blatant prostitution is a little shady. Since politicians generaly favor their reputations, maybe it's just that. I think that being the person who legalized prostitution isn't really something most politicians would like to be known as. That's my theory at least.

__________________
Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

gdr2004

I think that the difference is fantasy and reality. It's one thing to (excuse the harsh example) kill a person and another to actually do it. I think porn helps the mind relax and get creative. But prostitution on the other hand.. Well, you actually go out and do things. I don't think I'm qualified to discuss the morality of prostitution as I've never been with one but this thread is one I'll be keeping my eyes on. :-)

Halx

Being in the industry, I don't see a difference... except you can get paid more on average for porn.

I, however, don't object to either of them on a sociopolitical level.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

todd

I think prostitution should be legal. It's your body, your choice, its your own damn fault when you come down with some STDs. And its the 'buyers' own damn fault for contracting the STDs from the 'seller.' It's their choices, and their own faults.

I've never been with a prostitute, and nor do I ever plan to be (Strippers maybe at a bachelor party and strip clubs, but not a prostitute to have sex with). I just think it should be the people's own choice.

Though if it were legal, I think there should be deisgnated areas to "advertise," sort of like the Red Light District.

Master_Shake

We're all adults here - we can talk about this openly... PROSTITUTION! But what does that mean really? Let's break up the word. First there's Pros... well, that doesn't mean anything really... then there's Tit, I think we all know what that means... then Tu, as in "to" the tit... and then there's shun, from the Latin, to shun is to say No! To push it away! To shun something is, well... it really doesn't belong in this word at all, really.
-Bill Blazejowski

__________________
-------------
You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

Stompy

IMO, the govt has no place to tell us what's morally right and wrong.

This not only goes for prostitution/porn, but also for drug use (amongst other things).

If I meet a girl and she wants to have sex with me in return for some currency... what's wrong with that? Why is it okay then for me to have sex with another girl for free (one night stands)?

Or better yet, register a porn business. Claim you are a filmmaker. Instead of paying the prostitute for sex, pay her to be in your movie. Suddenly it becomes okay.

These laws are condradictory and, IMO, serve no purpose whatsoever. I think the sooner these jackass laws are removed and people become more aware of life in general AND are responsible for their actions, then society will be able to move forward.

Until then.. expect the same old closed-mindedness from society and the govt.

__________________
I love lamp.

braindamage351

Pornography is just a view. Prostitution is giving up your most prized possession to some lowlife for a little bit of money.

weedstain

Having sex for money isn't illegal, it's the searching for it, and that's the difference between prostitution and pornography.

__________________
Some might say they don't believe in heaven, go and tell it to the man who lives in hell

Dawson70

I believe that they "both" should be legal and obtainable. It is a stupid law placed on the books to "control" us. If a woman chooses to sell her body for sexual pleasure and is an adult, they should be free to do so. Why is it, when I come out of a porn shop, I have to hang my head and dash away from the store with my plain paper bag hiding my purchase? It doesn't make any sense. People that believe or use these facilities should not be threatned by pressure of society. I think I strayed from the original question...sorry.

__________________
"I Finally Finished My Goal....You Can Too!

Yippie Ki Ya...