Taoism - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

StormBerlin · 03-12-2004, 09:18 AM

I'm not quite sure if this goes here, feel free to move it, mods

My question is, does anyone practice this belief? I'm taking a World Religions class here at the U, and my professor said it's a good religion to incorporate with your main religion (Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.). I've never met anyone practicing this religion, so I was just curious. Thanks for your input

SB

rsl12 · 03-12-2004, 10:33 AM

Storm: I don't think you could call it a religion you can practice. I often say i'm taoist because it puts a nice label on a type of belief/philosophy. But the actual evolution of Taoism from the princples of Tao te Ching is long and branched. Arts, including Tai Chi (the martial arts), I Ching (the divination method), Feng Shui (the furniture arrangement art) can all be considered as being derived from Taoism, and though there are schools for these disciplines, I don't think there has ever in history been a Taoism church, or some sort of social organization based solely on Taoism beliefs. Random philosophers along the way have commented on the original taoist text (Tao te Ching) but, due to the ambiguous nature of that work, it's hard to see how Taoism could ever be unified into one set of dogma, or even a few branches.

The crux of Taoism is very similar to existentialism; that is, existence precedes essence. This is in contrast to Plato's idea that for any given object, say, a chair, one can imagine an idealized form of it, the perfect chair. Plato believed that, by analogy, one can imagine a perfect person, and that perfect person is the being we should all aspire to be. In Taoism and existentialism, this idea of an ideal is abolished and you're left with only what exists around us, without thinking of this ideal plane and, by extension, without having to depend on God (who would exist in the ideal plane) for us to have meaning in our life. Whether or not God exists is immaterial in both existentialism and Taoism--what is important is what we are and what our environment is.

Existentialism and Taoism differ, I think, most fundamentally in that existentialism has a sort of despair to it, whereas taoism is optimistic about the situation. The most popular existentialist philosophers tend to emphasize the loneliness of people, due to their realization of their isolated situations, away from God and from meaning. On the other hand, Taoism finds that the meaning is the existence, that being part of the environment around you, which is all you have, makes you part of it and that is the best you can do.

I think it's possible a person could hold Taoist beliefs along with the principles of other religions. However, I think one of the most fundamental beliefs in Taoism is that your actions should be performed because they are right, and not because there is some expectation of a reward from God, or because God says such and such is right. In other words, there ought to be a logic apart from God's scriptures, inherent in nature and the universe, intimately known to us, that guides the way we live. If that can be reconciled with the religion of your choice, then all the more power to you.

Lebell · 03-12-2004, 10:41 AM

If you haven't hit it already, Taoism describes both a philosophy and a religion.

From the philosophy, there is much wisdom in Tao that I incorporate into my beliefs as a Christian.

I'm sure if you wanted, you could find people locally who practice the religious aspects of it, which incorporate ancient Chinese ancestor worship among other things.

rsl12 · 03-12-2004, 10:43 AM

lebell: ancestor worship is part of confucianism, not taoism.

Lebell · 03-12-2004, 10:55 AM

rsl12,

Religious taoism combined aspects of confucianism, including ancestor worship to create a kind of "hybrid" religion, much as Buddhism picked up aspects of the local religions as it moved Eastward (contrast "pure land" Buddhism w/ Theravada Buddhism for example).

I know this because I had to do a paper on it.

(I'll send you a copy if you want

)

Edit to add:

I don't think many westerners practice ancestor worship, I'm just saying that in the east you can find it and that there are definitely philosophical and religious versions of Taoism.

03-12-2004, 02:55 PM

I don't practice any certian belief or religion, however, after a year of Philosophy, I met a classmate who was Taoist. It seemed the most related to what I believed. If I were to choose to be religious, I would be Taoist. I have quite a few books on it.

Neochimp · 03-15-2004, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
I don't think many westerners practice ancestor worship, I'm just saying that in the east you can find it and that there are definitely philosophical and religious versions of Taoism.

I'd have to say most western religions are metaphoric ancestor worship. God the father is viewed as the ancestor of all humans. Through that line, everyone is kin to each other and therefore should treat each other as brothers and sisters.

Tophat665 · 03-15-2004, 04:51 AM

Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.

rsl12 · 03-15-2004, 10:08 AM

lebell: i would be curious to see your paper--i've never heard of "religious taoism", and none of my chinese friends know what that is either. always glad to learn something new...

StormBerlin · 03-15-2004, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tophat665
Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.

Very good

rsl12 · 03-16-2004, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tophat665
Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.

Interesting point, though I think it's a bit selfish for enlightened people to go off dancing in the woods leaving everyone else in the dark. Being enlightened myself (I am, trust me) I think it's entirely possible to explain the philosophy from an intellectual point, but to actually get a full grasp of it requires something else--for me personally, it was meditation, but i'm sure there are other routes.

"Now that I'm enlightened, I'm just as miserable as ever" --suzuki

StormBerlin · 03-16-2004, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rsl12
Interesting point, though I think it's a bit selfish for enlightened people to go off dancing in the woods leaving everyone else in the dark. Being enlightened myself (I am, trust me) I think it's entirely possible to explain the philosophy from an intellectual point, but to actually get a full grasp of it requires something else--for me personally, it was meditation, but i'm sure there are other routes.

"Now that I'm enlightened, I'm just as miserable as ever" --suzuki

Enlightened how so? Obviously you haven't found the Tao, or you wouldn't be flaunting it which is what Tophat665 was insinuating with his quote....

I'm curious, please explain

rsl12 · 03-16-2004, 06:42 PM

heh storm, that's the part i CAN'T explain. you'll have to take it as an article of faith that I'm enlightened. I know I'm enlightened the same way you know when you have your first orgasm.

read all the above, ask me questions about taoism if you like. i'll be happy to answer (though i don't promise right answers). as a philosophy, it's possible to explain. as something you do, it's just something you do without explanation. it's the difference between explaining humor and laughing.

StormBerlin · 03-16-2004, 10:43 PM

I wasn't asking you to explain what it feels like to be enlightened, I know that's unexplainable....
My question was (and I'm sorry if I didn't word it correctly) please explain how you feel enlightened but still feel like you have the ability to flaunt your elighten-ness. If you really are, thats your business, but you aren't supposed to talk about it

rsl12 · 03-17-2004, 06:53 AM

flaunt storm? just stating the facts ma'am.

i didn't think it was a big deal...sorry if it came across as arrogant.

StormBerlin · 03-17-2004, 11:56 AM

That was just the info that I got from the class I'm taking.
You did come across as arrogant, but that's ok

I know better now.
And I'm sorry if I came across as bitchy, I was just confused.

03-17-2004, 01:10 PM

I don't see the need for judgements or arguments here.
It's not about flaunting it, its about sharing and expressing it.
My spirituality I live, and will express it without flaunting, because my way is only a different way, not a better way. I won't hide it, but I won't act as if I know everything. I know that I am enlightened, but that does not mean I know more than anyone else. And it's not about pride, as pride shows uncertainty and insecurity. It's about being comfortable with Who I Am, not trying to prove anything.
Taoism is that, simply because it's a way, not a religion necessarily.

opentocomments · 03-21-2004, 02:46 PM

I think the quote might be mistaken or a different translation or a different quote all together because my favorite line from Tao Te Ching was "The wise man speaks because he has something to say, the foolish man speaks because he has to say something."

woodhead · 04-01-2004, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tophat665
Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.

You said it!

triad · 04-01-2004, 03:00 PM

I've been more or less casually seeking 'enlightenment' for the past several years. I've read some articles on the different philosophies and then red some zen koans but more for entertainment then enlightenment. Enlightenment is definatly something I'd like to persue, but is there any one place where there is a comprehensive amount of information? I'm still trying to grasp exactly what it is, but the more I learn the more I want to attain it.

Any suggestions on how to go about attaining it will be greatly appretiated.

Thanks,
Triad

03-12-2004, 09:18 AM	#1 (permalink)
StormBerlin Happy as a hippo Location: Southern California	Taoism I'm not quite sure if this goes here, feel free to move it, mods My question is, does anyone practice this belief? I'm taking a World Religions class here at the U, and my professor said it's a good religion to incorporate with your main religion (Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.). I've never met anyone practicing this religion, so I was just curious. Thanks for your input SB __________________ "if anal sex could get a girl pregnant i'd be tits deep in child support" Arcane

03-12-2004, 10:33 AM	#2 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	Storm: I don't think you could call it a religion you can practice. I often say i'm taoist because it puts a nice label on a type of belief/philosophy. But the actual evolution of Taoism from the princples of Tao te Ching is long and branched. Arts, including Tai Chi (the martial arts), I Ching (the divination method), Feng Shui (the furniture arrangement art) can all be considered as being derived from Taoism, and though there are schools for these disciplines, I don't think there has ever in history been a Taoism church, or some sort of social organization based solely on Taoism beliefs. Random philosophers along the way have commented on the original taoist text (Tao te Ching) but, due to the ambiguous nature of that work, it's hard to see how Taoism could ever be unified into one set of dogma, or even a few branches. The crux of Taoism is very similar to existentialism; that is, existence precedes essence. This is in contrast to Plato's idea that for any given object, say, a chair, one can imagine an idealized form of it, the perfect chair. Plato believed that, by analogy, one can imagine a perfect person, and that perfect person is the being we should all aspire to be. In Taoism and existentialism, this idea of an ideal is abolished and you're left with only what exists around us, without thinking of this ideal plane and, by extension, without having to depend on God (who would exist in the ideal plane) for us to have meaning in our life. Whether or not God exists is immaterial in both existentialism and Taoism--what is important is what we are and what our environment is. Existentialism and Taoism differ, I think, most fundamentally in that existentialism has a sort of despair to it, whereas taoism is optimistic about the situation. The most popular existentialist philosophers tend to emphasize the loneliness of people, due to their realization of their isolated situations, away from God and from meaning. On the other hand, Taoism finds that the meaning is the existence, that being part of the environment around you, which is all you have, makes you part of it and that is the best you can do. I think it's possible a person could hold Taoist beliefs along with the principles of other religions. However, I think one of the most fundamental beliefs in Taoism is that your actions should be performed because they are right, and not because there is some expectation of a reward from God, or because God says such and such is right. In other words, there ought to be a logic apart from God's scriptures, inherent in nature and the universe, intimately known to us, that guides the way we live. If that can be reconciled with the religion of your choice, then all the more power to you. __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy. Last edited by rsl12; 03-12-2004 at 10:47 AM..

03-12-2004, 10:41 AM	#3 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	If you haven't hit it already, Taoism describes both a philosophy and a religion. From the philosophy, there is much wisdom in Tao that I incorporate into my beliefs as a Christian. I'm sure if you wanted, you could find people locally who practice the religious aspects of it, which incorporate ancient Chinese ancestor worship among other things. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

03-12-2004, 10:43 AM	#4 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	lebell: ancestor worship is part of confucianism, not taoism. __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

03-12-2004, 10:55 AM	#5 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	rsl12, Religious taoism combined aspects of confucianism, including ancestor worship to create a kind of "hybrid" religion, much as Buddhism picked up aspects of the local religions as it moved Eastward (contrast "pure land" Buddhism w/ Theravada Buddhism for example). I know this because I had to do a paper on it. (I'll send you a copy if you want ) Edit to add: I don't think many westerners practice ancestor worship, I'm just saying that in the east you can find it and that there are definitely philosophical and religious versions of Taoism. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! Last edited by Lebell; 03-12-2004 at 11:01 AM..

03-12-2004, 02:55 PM	#6 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	I don't practice any certian belief or religion, however, after a year of Philosophy, I met a classmate who was Taoist. It seemed the most related to what I believed. If I were to choose to be religious, I would be Taoist. I have quite a few books on it.

03-15-2004, 04:51 AM	#8 (permalink)
Tophat665 Minion of the scaléd ones Location: Northeast Jesusland	Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know. __________________ Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

03-15-2004, 10:08 AM	#9 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	lebell: i would be curious to see your paper--i've never heard of "religious taoism", and none of my chinese friends know what that is either. always glad to learn something new... __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

03-16-2004, 06:42 PM	#13 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	heh storm, that's the part i CAN'T explain. you'll have to take it as an article of faith that I'm enlightened. I know I'm enlightened the same way you know when you have your first orgasm. read all the above, ask me questions about taoism if you like. i'll be happy to answer (though i don't promise right answers). as a philosophy, it's possible to explain. as something you do, it's just something you do without explanation. it's the difference between explaining humor and laughing. __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy. Last edited by rsl12; 03-16-2004 at 07:07 PM..

03-16-2004, 10:43 PM	#14 (permalink)
StormBerlin Happy as a hippo Location: Southern California	I wasn't asking you to explain what it feels like to be enlightened, I know that's unexplainable.... My question was (and I'm sorry if I didn't word it correctly) please explain how you feel enlightened but still feel like you have the ability to flaunt your elighten-ness. If you really are, thats your business, but you aren't supposed to talk about it __________________ "if anal sex could get a girl pregnant i'd be tits deep in child support" Arcane

03-17-2004, 06:53 AM	#15 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	flaunt storm? just stating the facts ma'am. i didn't think it was a big deal...sorry if it came across as arrogant. __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

03-17-2004, 11:56 AM	#16 (permalink)
StormBerlin Happy as a hippo Location: Southern California	That was just the info that I got from the class I'm taking. You did come across as arrogant, but that's ok I know better now. And I'm sorry if I came across as bitchy, I was just confused. __________________ "if anal sex could get a girl pregnant i'd be tits deep in child support" Arcane

03-17-2004, 01:10 PM	#17 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	I don't see the need for judgements or arguments here. It's not about flaunting it, its about sharing and expressing it. My spirituality I live, and will express it without flaunting, because my way is only a different way, not a better way. I won't hide it, but I won't act as if I know everything. I know that I am enlightened, but that does not mean I know more than anyone else. And it's not about pride, as pride shows uncertainty and insecurity. It's about being comfortable with Who I Am, not trying to prove anything. Taoism is that, simply because it's a way, not a religion necessarily.

03-21-2004, 02:46 PM	#18 (permalink)
opentocomments Psycho Location: St. Louis	I think the quote might be mistaken or a different translation or a different quote all together because my favorite line from Tao Te Ching was "The wise man speaks because he has something to say, the foolish man speaks because he has to say something." __________________ How do we know that the sky is not green and we are all color-blind?

04-01-2004, 03:00 PM	#20 (permalink)
triad Tilted	I've been more or less casually seeking 'enlightenment' for the past several years. I've read some articles on the different philosophies and then red some zen koans but more for entertainment then enlightenment. Enlightenment is definatly something I'd like to persue, but is there any one place where there is a comprehensive amount of information? I'm still trying to grasp exactly what it is, but the more I learn the more I want to attain it. Any suggestions on how to go about attaining it will be greatly appretiated. Thanks, Triad