Reason for the crucifixion
 

As Lebell and I contemplated the purpose of God taking the form of man, in Jesus (and in my opinion, others as well) and choosing to die such a violent death, we came to some interesting thoughts. I'd like to hear what you think.

First, we talked in length about Jesus being the epitome of true love. His basic message is to love everyone as we love ourselves. To me, that means that we must love ourselves first. In this self-hating society, that can be a challenge. Even accepting a compliment is difficult for many people. IMHO, we must learn to love ourselves so that we are able to love others.

Why the violent death? That took a lot of contemplation. I just cannot buy into the idea that Jesus had to shed blood in order for our sins to be atoned. It seems way to barbaric to me. But obviously, Jesus had to be crucified for some reason; otherwise, why would he (if he is God incarnate) allow it to happen. I think the reason for the crucifixion was to show as that even in the worst of circumstances, there is hope. When we have love -- true love – and true faith, then any trial we face should present us with hope.

Personally, I believe we are all part of God and she (he) is part of all of us. We are called, not to judge, but to love! And in truly loving, we are given hope for a better life.

What are your thoughts on this?

In my belief structure, Jesus was brutally killed in order to send a message to those who would read his upcoming novel. Although I prefer the version in "stranger in a strange land". The death sequence was very important, as it shows the lenghts to which our hero was willing to go, in order to fulfil his destiny as the savior of all, and the cure for sin.
To my understanding, Jesus was used by his father to get the attention of a wandering people, and bring them back into the fold. Jesus was thus given extra-ordinary abilities in order to show his sheep what the father was capable of, this can be interpreted as intimidation, love, ego, or any number of other human attributes. Although I doubt we can understand the actual reasoning of the "god" mind.
The general tone of the story is somewhat depressing , but has definate moral strengths. The author(s) uses metaphor in excess to lay the groundwork for a stimulating work, that is to say the least, thought provocing. As for the death of the christ, it was entirely expected, as most avatars will suffer the persecution of the masses, due to a complete lack of understanding of the devine path. And a fear of the unexplained.

Re: Reason for the crucifixion
 

I really like your reasoning for the crucifixion.

He had to be killed because he was a danger to Roman rule, crucifixion was a relatively normal execution method back then.

I don't see any reason to find some supernatural explanation. :)

Agreed. If Jesus did today the things that he did in Judea in the 1st Century AD would have been labeled a terrorist and treated as such by the powers that be.

He was a radical seeking social change for an oppressed people, and seemed to be willing to incite his followers to armed revolution in order to accomplish that goal. The United States Government of 2004 would have taken no less extreme measures to elmiinate him as a threat.

:hmm:

He did no such thing.

Erion, "willing to incite his followers to armed revolution" is most certainly not something that Jesus was. If you look at pretty much any of His teachings you see a STRONG stance against taking up arms against anyone. Jesus said "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you" to point out one example.

Anyways, yes, I essentially agree with you sexymama. I wouldn't say I have a firm belief one way or another yet...still sorting it out and learning...but it seems to me likely that, considering Jesus' message as one of God's unconditional love and life free from fear, his life and death and, ultimately, resurrection, were profound examples of how God is behind us, if we allow Him (Her, It) to be, through even the most extreme evil: death. It seems to be a life of example, coming to the ultimate representative conclusion. He taught, and showed, how to live a life of trust in God and, in the face of death, and on top of that, the most horrible, vile, and evil form of death of the time, he continued to trust God and not let fear control his actions, and His resurrection shows that God IS behind us even in the most evil of times and if God is supporting us even in death - the ultimate evil - there is no reason to allow fear to get the best of us in the face of even lesser evils.

Where does that come from?!?

I'm not even christian, and I gotta call ya on that. Just because I don't believe that JC was the "Son of God", doesn't diminish that fact that he was a good man, that taught some pretty idealic lessons. I'm hoping that you can back that up, and didn't just put it out there as "flame bait".

Jesus knew his Truth and listened to his Soul (i.e. the voice of God) and followed that.
Many besides Jesus were crucified, why they singled him out, is because he walked a "holy" life and did/said things that seemed inappropriate or unfathomable. Leaders thought that he was coming along to take their people away and brainwash them into thinking these holy things.
But he wasn't the only beaten or crucified. It was a norm in the Roman era to stone or kill those who did not abide by the rules or was not the "same" as them, especially Jews.

i very seriously doubt that.

Oshnsoul:

how do you make the linkage between listening to a soul and making that the voice of God? if you believe in souls, then you would probably agree that we each have distinct souls. by combination, you are in effect saying that we each have our own distinct "voice of God," correct?

if so, do you come to that conclusion through interpretation of biblical scripture, or through other sources and/or personal speculation?

Although I know you mean this tongue in cheek, I think you are right on. People still don't understand the devine path; if they did there would be much less judgement and violance and a lot more love and compassion. I also believe there is nothing to fear in death -- Christian, or any other belief. Heaven is and death is what we make of it.

Exactly what I mean -- very well said. Thank you! :D

We do all have the "voice of God" (it is called a conscious) in us. Some of us are just better at listening to it then others. Wouldn't this earth be a much better place if we all truly (emphasize truly) listened to that inner voice?

Although I don't have the Bible in front of me, what I can say is that I know Jesus says that we are all sons and daughters of God. He also tells us to "ask and you shall receive." I believe that means ask for wisdom/answers/guidance/strength etc. (not physical things) and it will be given.

Of course, ultimately we all develop our own truth and that truth, when truly grasped and lived by, will set us free.

Actually....that was not tongue in cheek, as far as I have been able to tell, the only avatar to avoid persecution is Sai Baba, who is alive and well in India as we chat. Even the Buddah had to suffer at the hands of minunderstanding. I think Sai Baba has kept a very low profile to allow his message to be felt in more depth, wise man.

From what I have read of this thread so far, this is in large part an attempt to understand the Work of the Hebrew God through the mindset and vision of Eastern ideology and mysticism.
The two are mutually exclusive and cannot be combined. You are comparing Apples to Oranges.
If you want to understand the Reason for the Crucifixion, get hold of a Bible and read the Book of ROMANS, It is in the New Testament, just after the book of ACTS, Following the four Gospels of MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE and JOHN. This book, ROMANS, will explain a great deal about many Christian ideas and thoughts. When choosing a Bible to read, choose wisely.
Personally, I would suggest you stay away from the King James version as the flowery speech has a tendency to confuse.
All Bibles are the same, mind you, despite what you may have heard, it is just that the dialects differ. Choose one that is easiest to understand, and have at it!

By the way, Sai Baba has received quite a bit of hard luck from detractors in India. He has had books published about him there. He just was never foolish enough to venture westward as were many of his contemporaries. Still, Tal Brooke wrote a wonderfully scathing book about him called Avatar of Night, if you're at all interested.

tecoyah, glad to hear that you and I are actually just saying the same thing in different ways. I think what you say is very true. Thanks for clarifying and please accept my apologies.

Thagrastay, my point is not that I don't understand the "traditional" explanation of the reason for the crucifixsion. I understand what Christians say very well and know the Bible fairly well. I'm saying that I believe the meaning goes beyond the literal into a more esoteric, Eastern Ideology, type of meaning.
What do you think? And why?

You are certainly welcome to your opinion :)

Messiah was not A type of Avatar, espousing a way to enlighten us to our own path to our own truths. This runs contrary to everything Jesus said and did.
Jesus was a Hebrew Jew! a Religious stick in the mud!
Messiah came saying "I am the way to heaven" He did not come saying "I can show you a way to heaven" or "I know a way to heaven" This is what made Messiah so unique. He did not come saying "You have work to do- you must first be purified and be made clean by ridding yourself of the ancient karma you carry" He came saying "You have sinned- you carry upon you sins that seperate you from God. There is nothing you can possibly do to make yourself clean enough to enter heaven! But I can take those sins from you. I will carry those sins for you. With my blood, I will wash away your sins so that you can come to the Father."

OK, let me put it a different way. Sexymama and Thagrastay decide we want to go to Spain and visit the King! So, we hop on a plane and go to Spain and go to the palace, and go up to the guards and say "Hi, it's Sexymama and Thagrastay and we're here to see the King!: the guard looks on his invitation list and doesn't see us and asks us if we have an uinvite and we say "No, we just want to see the King!" so, hth gurad looks at us and sees that we aren't celebrities or royalty or anyone of influence or importance and he says to us- "Go stand over by the fence and if the King comes out and sees you and invites you in, then you can come in."
So we go over by the fence and we wait, and watch and every time a car or limosine comes through the gate, we hope that it is the King and that He will spot us and let us in. But nothing happens.
After quite a while, a man shows up and he begins to hang aroud telling us about the King and how he knows all about the King and what the King likes and doesn't like and what the King wants and doesn't want. This man is dressed like us and looks like us and talks like us and many think, "Who is this guy and why does he think he is better than us and that he knows so much about the king and that he is so high and mighty?" And this guy keeps saying that only He can get us into the palace to see the king and many keep telling him to shut up because they can get themselves in just as soon as the king drives by, and this guy won't shut up and finally, he riles the crowd up so much that they grab him and beat him and then he tells this crowd that He is the Kings SON! and The Crowd says, "Well, if you are the King's SON, then surely HE will come down here and save you! where are your guards? where are your policemen?" And they drag him and kick him and beat him and theyhaul him up to the gate and they stick him up on it to die, laughing at him as he hangs there. And sexymama and Thagrastay watch in horror as this nice man has this happen to him and we don't know what to do for him!
While He is hanging there, He says to us that He came out to let us know that the King wanted us to come inside the palace, but only the ones who would befriend His SON who loved the people so much that He would die for all of them. And before He dies on the fence, the guy says "Please forgive them, Father, they didn't know what they were doing."

After the resurrection, of course, the Son is taken inside the Palace. And any that have befriended the Son are also citizens of the Palace as well, and the servants there attend to the friends of the Son. And the friends can come and go anywhere they like, except the Throne Room of the Father.
That they can only enter whenaccompanied by the Son. And before they enter that Throne room they must have been cleaned (baptised). Because the Father will recognize the friend because of the Son, But it will dishonor the Son if the Friend comes brefore the Father in the filthy rags they wore before they entered the palace. And so, to honor the Son, they are Baptised, and have the sins washed away, so that when they go before the Father, trhey are clean and washed pure and they have honored the Son whose sacrifice allowed them in.
The crucifixion was wholly and act of love. THE act of love for all time. There is no greater gift than that. God laid down His life so that we could be washed clean in His own blood, the Took up his life again so that we could join Himin Heaven and never fear death again.
What more is there?

while thagrastay and i often differ on our stance on Christianity's more dogmatic traditions, i certainly agree with his first paragraph on the previous post.

when you start to assign Jesus Christ roles and likenesses found in eastern religions, you are often watering down the Christ described in the Gospels to fit your own ideology... not making an honest attempt to interpret the biblical text.

that isn't to say that eastern religion and philosophy don't have a lot to offer as far as wisdom, peace, and understanding go. but if you truly believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, then you know that no one enters the kingdom of heaven except through him. i won't pretend to know his exact criteria for that... or whether or not he extends that grace to unbelievers. still, it is impossible to be devoted to the biblical Christ yet let philosophies developed without his influence take precedence over his own teachings.

i believe clarity on this particular principle is crucial when making any case for the purpose of the crucifixition.

I always find it amusing/annoying when other people think it appropropriate to tell me how to seek God.

Gentlemen, I am not dogmatic in several ways. Nor am I so far off the beaten path that I believe I am a heretic.

That being said, you are welcome to your interpretations of exactly who Christ was, but they are just that: interpretations.

To me, Jesus was the real, living Son of God. And he came down to Earth for many reasons, while knowing the inevitability of His brutal death.

This in my mind is not incompatable from what many Eastern religions teach, nor from what the core of Christianity teaches, and I say that after studying both for some years.

I also think the statment,

is very telling, as if Jesus only came to Earth for the sake of some Hebrews 2000 years ago, or as if God is not a universal God.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that, no one penny's worth.

Yes, Jesus was a first century Jew. Yes, the tradition that He taught in and from was Jewish and to understand Him you need to be keenly aware of that.

But to say that that is the ONLY mindset you can have to look at Jesus or that Jesus was a "Jewish stick-in-the-mud"?

uh uh. no way. sorry.


So Thagrastay, if you choose to believe a strictly dogmatic form of Christianity, more power to you!

I however, do not.

lebell, i'm not certain which of us is more correct... but your reading of thagrastay's post is a lot different than mine.

i agree w/you that the two (Christianity and Eastern philosophies) aren't like "apples and oranges" or mutually exclusive in all respects. but, i think thagrastay's point was that it is difficult to claim that you are a follower of Christ, yet ignore his teachings and nature in favor of eastern substitutes.

eastern religion can certainly compliment Jesus' teachings from the perspective of an intellectually honest Christian (cause, let's face it... many principles are the same. oftentimes, eastern philosophers said them first.). but if Christ is recorded as saying something concrete and unequivocal such as:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

Then the true follower of Christ must take that as the root of truth. All other knowledge must be understood within the context of the foundation of truth exemplified by Christ.

There are many who choose not to make Jesus Christ the foundation of their faith. That's fine. I just think that it was Thagrastay's point that if they do profess that he is, Jesus should be the cornerstone of their theology in all cases that he can be applied.

I don't think anyone here is saying that Jesus is not the basis of their Christian faith (if they're Christian at least) but only that, as you said, much eastern thought can compliment it without contradicting it. And that statement isn't as concrete and unequivocal as you may think...he doesn't say "No one comes to the Father except through stated belief in me and vocal membership in my church." My point being that one can believe in Jesus without calling it a belief in Jesus and without even realizing that that's what they believe in because they may be raised in a different culture with different focuses. Thus, they may open themselves up fully to letting Love (i.e. God, for God is Love, and thus, Jesus) control their lives and not call it Jesus, or God, or Christian. Many non-Christians in this way are better Christians than most Christians. Thus, they may come to the Father through Jesus and still not realize that that is who they are coming to the Father through or even that it is the Father that they are coming to. It's simply another interpretation and one that is, grammatically, no less accurate.

That's also not to say there isn't worth in recognizing that the openness to Love that one has is provided and guided by Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but only to say that one can be accepting of Jesus without calling it that and without realizing that that's exactly what they are doing.

(note: Lebell has also made good points below me)

Then I don't see that you and I are in any real disagreement.

I also agree that study of Eastern religions can enhance our study of Christianity.

But I must take issue with these words: "Christ is recorded as saying "...

Unfortunately Christ is recorded as saying nothing, nor was someone writing things down even remotely temporally close to when he said them, which is a huge source of grief for biblicists and other theologians.

In short, I am in agreement with many who think Jesus likely did not utter those words, which are found only in the Gospel of John.

Let us assume for an instant that Jesus did utter those words and let's look at the phrase, "no one comes to the Father but through me".

We already know what orthodoxy says, so let's set that aside. Another way of looking at this is to ask who is Jesus and can we find him elsewhere? For example, contrast this with the two greatest commandments, as taught by Jesus:

This was Jesus' public teaching.

So why didn't he tell the crowd, "Thou shalt love me, the Lord, thy God...", if that was the way? But he didn't. He directed the people to worship God the Father.

This is but one reason that I believe there maybe other ways to find God beyond a strict Biblical worship of Jesus. I also don't think this is against what Jesus taught.

In otherwords, many people may know the Christ without realising that it is Him they know.

Conversely, many may think they have Jesus nailed down (pun intended) without knowing him at all.

I am sorry, but this must be said. After decades of dealing with my own spirituality, I have no need of your mindset. I have grown so very tired of wasting energy on closed minded discussion.
I would never attempt to discredit your god, or for that matter degrade you for your beliefs. Yet you feel the need to debase a Holy man to a great many people.There are enormous volumes of literature attempting to bebunk the christ as well,"if you're at all interested".
While I fully realize your arrogant disregard of other perspectives is unintentional, and likely an attempt to save someone, I just wish you could understand that we are all correct in our own beliefs and simply trying to exchange our own understanding of the topic.
I do not consider Sai Baba as "god" or its' son. But many people care much for his teachings, and I have met him and respect his avatar status. Just as I respect tha status of the christ. please try to respect the status of others, it really can't hurt you.

At the time, crucifixion was for the absolute lowest, most despicable people- BECAUSE it was so horrible. When Jesus was crucified, there was no greater torture in existence, and no greater humiliation at the hands of those who nailed you up. Assuming God planned it that way, he'd have wanted as bad as possible.

Truth be known, I feel no judgement from Secretmethod. He simply shared his point of view for us to contemplate. I did, and do, however, feel a great deal of "judgement" from you, Thagrastay (edited -- my apologies) And if your goal is truly just to share, then you may want to consider how you are sharing. You said that the only way to heaven is through the son of the king. That we must accept the son to see the king, and that all other beliefs are wrong. Who is really being closed minded here?

The point that I believe I'm trying to make ( I won't speak for others) is that Jesus is one way to heaven. He came to earth, not only to "die for our sins" but to teach. He taught us to LOVE one another the way we love ourselves. That is not all that different from Eastern philosophy, imho. All great leaders teach us to love and to act on love: Mohammad, Buddah, St. Francis, Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King Jr., and the Dalai Lama for example.

I truly believe that Jesus did not come down to earth to judge us -- but to love us. He was willing to be crucified to show us hope. What we know of Jesus's actual words is very limited. Scholars did not even begin to write them down until well over 100 years later. And they were not written in English (as you know) therefore there have been several interpretations of those words over the years. However, the basic message has remained the same. LOVE, as Jesus loved!

tecoyah, please, tell me about Sai Baba's eyes then.

And what was the word he gave to you?

If you met him?

I am somewhat confused....are you sure this is directed at me, and if so, I am sorry for the offense. I don't think I have ever in my life told someone that "the only way to heaven is thru the son of the king". In fact I hold no belief in "heaven" as most people accept it, Nor in the king for that matter.
I have gone thru my posts and quite honestly, I can't find where this came from.
Also, I had no intention of sounding judgemental, merely pleading for open minded discussion, but again my apologies for the affront.

Think I will timidly bow out of this thread, and wish you all a peaceful search, thanx.

tecoyah, I am very sorry -- my mix up. I have edited the above post and apologize!

Thagrastay, the sad truth is I feel judgement from you. I hope you are able to examine this, even though I mistakingly addressed the wrong person above.

*leaves in embarrassment*

Judgement?
I don't judge. It is not my job. I was only reporting. I don't know how to judge. And to quite honest, I think that particular phrase is more than a bit overused. Please define that, if you would.
Are you suggesting I was being critical of you? If so, I would have to answer that I was not because I know nothing about you. In fact, this is a written forum populated by people from all over and from all manner of ideals. I think. Or, it could be three people who are very, very busy and exceptionally adept at multiple dialogues. The point is, no one in this forum knows anything about anyone else in this forum that they don't reveal about themselves, and even that could all be fabricated.
I am not suggesting this is true of you, I am only suggesting that I cannot judge you because I don't know you and I wouldn't possibly know what to judge you on.
So, please, without sounding too glib, because I certainly don't mean it that way, please, lighten up.
This thread was, I thought, about the reason for the crucifixion. That being a Judaeo/Christian event, one could reasonably expect it to be discussed within the perameters of the Bible. That is what I was trying to do. But you guys threw the Bible out the window and wanted to make this a subjective discussion, it would seem, and that leaves me at a loss.
It isn't my intention to alienate, and if that how you feel, I apologize. But to me, there is no way to De-Bible the Messiah. That's like the concept of Instant Water. What do you add to it?
Ultimately, the lesson and reason for the crucifixion is, from a biblical standpoint, IMHO, to demonstrate that TRUTH is not, and cannot be relative.
Now, stone me if you want, but I have not judged you or attacked anyone.

Thagrastay, thank you for your explanation. Please note I said I feel judged, not that you are judging. I did mean this discussion to go beyond the perameters of the Bible -- that was the entire purpose when I started this thread. IMHO this is a big world with many ideas and opinions and truths. What is important is to seek out one's own truth and live by it (as long as it harms no one else.) When I'm told that the only way to believe is the Biblical way, I feel judged.

I happen to believe that all world religions (and some non world religions) have elements that are similar and are "world truths." One of those elements is love. Another, when personally examining the cruxifiction, is hope. IMHO Jesus came in the form of a Jew, thus lived a Jewish life style and suffered a death "common" for those days; however, his message is meant for all and should be much more generalized; but that is only my opinion. I truly honor every one's right to their own opinions -- as long as they don't say their's is the only way.

This is such and indelicate word-trap. This semantical politik you are playing here. OK, fine. Let us commence the cumbersome dance then, where there are no absolutes and opinions are as reality. Perception and truth being one and the same, we will do our little minuet, eh? Fine.
Jesus-who it is said, claimed to be the Judgement-as well as the Truth and the Way and the Will and the Word, by virtue of the prophecies made about Him and the Race-specific history about Him, was conceivably much more than the garden variety Avatar.
It can be argued that He didn't just come in the form of a Jew, but specifically set aside the entire Jewish race in order to come from them and fulfill a promise He had made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob about setting all the nations free through their lineage- a promise that supposedly went all the way back to garden of Eden and the day of the Fall.
IMHO, it could further be argued that David, the King of Israel and one of Jesus ancestors, wrote in Psalm 22 a vivid description of Jesus crucifixion centuries before it took place, outlinging details such as the soldiers gambling for Jesus clothes, the things said to Him by the crowd, the amount paid for His betrayal, and, most remarkable of all, His very manner of death- Crucifixion- something which had not yet been invented!
Furthermore, it could be suggested that Jesus came firsat to the Jews to fulfill His promise to them, and then to the Gentile afterward, and His meassage of hope could be one that can be universally accepted, but it must accompany repentance and forgiveness and this is what keeps most people from accepting Jesus as their savior.
It is just my opinion.
Jesus, on the other hand, according to all available documentation there is, stated it all as the only way. that was HIS opinion.

sexymama,

From Luke chap. 8:


"4 And when a great multitude came together, and they of every city resorted unto him, he spake by a parable: 5 The sower went forth to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden under foot, and the birds of the heaven devoured it. 6 And other fell on the rock; and as soon as it grew, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 And other fell amidst the thorns; and the thorns grew with it, and choked it. 8 And other fell into the good ground, and grew, and brought forth fruit a hundredfold. As he said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Thagrastay - my observation is that you take the Bible literally and I take it figuratively. It is up to both of us what to believe and possibly we can agree to disagree. If you are open to it, there is a wonderful book out there called "The Jesus Mysteries." I gained a lot from reading it. In the meantime, God bless.

I am sorry, I must refuse. I have had this conversation before, and am well aware of the type of christian you are. Please go on to heaven without me, as I am doomed to the depths of hell.
You and yours, are the reason I left the church in the first place, long ago.

tecoyah, I don't know what converation you have had before because it certainly wasn't with me.
You do not know what type of chritian I am because ytou know nothing about me. You are being very harsh, closed-minded and judgemental. This is typical, I have found.
The whole drama of going on to heaven thing is a bit much, wouldn't you say?
Whatever reason you had fro leaving "THE CHURCH" was your own. Please be adult enough to accept responsibility for your own decisions.
What I do observe, though, is that for someone who claims to have abandoned the "christian" ideology, you are certainly involved in a lot of threads pertaining to it.
It's ok to still seek. We all do that. I think I bother you because don't waiver. That's because I have reaserched the heck out of this stuff and not only made a spiritual choice, but made an educated decision to follow Messiah as well. There is so much hard evidence out there that it would blow you away.
SexyMama, I mean no offense, I have read the Jesus Seminar's opinions and many other such materials, and then I have read real, documented findings. When it comes to The Bible, I am a pragmatist. I don't need the opinions of relativists telling me how they feel about the Bible to guide me in my walk with Messiah, when there is 2,000 years of actual documented history that will show me what transpired.
We can agree to disagree, yes. I don't why we would, but ok.
tecoyah, I have no idea why youi won't discuss Sai Baba. Other than that you didn't really meet him, maybe.
I am very interested to know what he was like and what he said to you. You treat it like an attack.
I suspect there are issues here.
This whole thread has become tto bizarre and way too maudlin for me.
Be well, be safe.
Be at peace in Yeshua Meshiach

Thagrastay, note, I said "The Jesus Mysteries" not Jesus Seminars.

I'm just curious, knowing the Bible as I do, I know that looking at pornography is wrong. How do you justify being a member of tfp "in your "walk with the Messiah?"

I believe he might be refering to an earlier post of mine, where I mentioned the Jesus Seminar.

Thagrastay, I owe you an apology, and please accept it. In my attept to prove my point I was less than kind, and this I regret.
In answer to your question, I was not fortunate enough to have an audience with Sai Baba, but merely a word and the experience, and I did not understand the word(dialect issues).
I think I misinterpreted the post you placed on this request as it seemed to place my "claim" of this meeting in some doubt, perhaps it was the context.
Regardless, no one deserves such a lack of respect, and I admit my intent was to belittle you.....it seems your stance brings this out in me, and I do not like it.

I have no intention of allowing this to happen again.In an attempt to prevent this in the future I think it best that I avoid your posts and replys.

I do hope you accept my apology, and live well in the light of your Christ.

tecoyah, do as you wish, you owe me nothing. But thank you for your concern. You don't have to avoid me, but if if my words convict you that much, then do as you need to. You have my blessing in that. Go with God.

Sexymama, what pornography are you referring to?

Lebell, I was referring to your earlier post. Please excuse that confusion.

Jesus had to be cruxified to fufill the ancient prophecy of the old testement.

Jaosn

I am refering to the several sections of tfp that post pornography -- "Off the Wayside," "Tilted Exhibition," "The Full Monty," and "Titty Board."

I have seen the "Off the Wayside", but only briefly. I have not visited "The full monty" "I visited "The Titty Board" briefly to see if it really was as advertised-it was, but have not visited the "Tilted Exhibition" and probably will not.
This is part of the modern culture, sadly, so That's the way it is. What am I to do about it? Are you expecting me to rant? Would it do any good?
I don't have to justify being a member of tfp, do I?
Is there a holiness clause in here somewhere? You claim to be a believer of some sort but your avatar is of a naked butt. Big deal. So you think your more evolved or progressive than me?
Get a grip. Jesus would be in here posting with you if He were walking the planet today. Why can't I? Man, you guys kill me.
Do you see me posting in your so-called "Porn" areas?
So, you hang out here, posting "dirty pictures" on the internet and dissing Christians and that makes you liberal and progressive?
Who are the hypocrites? The ones inchurch turning up their noses at you guys there, or you guys in here turning up your noses at me? Suddenly I have to justify being in here with you?
Jesus says that for the Believer, all things are permissable. But not all things are beneficial. I am covere3d in all things by ther blood of Christ. I am not in here to look at dirty pictures. I am in here for the conversation and the exchange of ideas and the artwork that is posted. If that is alright with you.
I don't recognize those sections you mentioned as "porn". I see themn as people compromising themselves infront of and with other people because they don't understand how truly wonderful and valuable they really are, and if they did, they would not do the things they do to themselves and others, but would love themselves and others so fully and completely and their hearts would be filled with joy and peace because of it. That is what I see. I mourn for the loss of their love and dignity. But what they do is their choice, and as such, is not my business.
Now you have your answer, and can commence to mock me as you wish. I would expect no less, but would really wish for much, much more.
Be well, be safe. Be at peace.

OK, why Jesus was crucified: He was a threat (albeit a nearly totally non-violent one) to the religious authorities at the time. Yes they were Jewish, but that's really beside the point, they reacted the way the religious authorities in an occupied country might be best advised to do in general: they went to the occupying authority and brought their case, "This fellow is subverting our religion, stealing our followers and diluting our cash flow, and we'd really like it if you would kill him." Pilate acted in a totally reasonable way for the time, he acquiesced, but felt a bit icky about it when he saw and heard what he was going to be killing (still, not icky enough to call it off, though.) Crucifixion was a fairly common punishment, and by no means the worst the Romans had to offer in the capital department. (Not that I would want it done to me.)

It just made sense to do from the perspective of keeping the occupied people happy in paying their taxes and practicing their religion.

Oh, and Christianity <u>is</u> and eastern religion. Good and evil? That's from Persia. Virgin Birth? India and Persia. Resurrected redeemer god? Egypt and India. Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha, was accidentally canonized as Saint Jehosaphat (a corruption of Boshisattwa) by the Catholic Church in the 16th century, though he was later de-sanctified. Avatar <i>means</i> Incarnation, they're two words for the same thing. Unfortunately, Christianity has largely stamped out western religion, and all that's left are the holidays, a handful of saints, the shape of the Christian devil, and a handful of Wiccans who get very little attention (likely by design).

Thagrastay, I feel for you, truly I do. I am not attacking, I simply asked a question. I see from your reply that you feel totally justified in your actions and choices. That is wonderful. So do I.

Just an fyi, my avatar is very significant. It represents my choosing to submit to Lebell in all areas of our life together.

I am glad that you are in here for the conversation. My prayer for you is that you will learn to converse rather than simply sharing your view; because my experienc of you (still) is that you feel that you are right and that we are wrong and that you are here to "enlighten us." I say that, because you use extremely judgemental language.

I am not mocking you -- I simply feel pity for you. I also pray that as you mature, you will soften your approach as I'm afraid your harshness turns a lot of people away. (Believe me, this is not a judgement as I know that I too am very strong and opinionated. I hope that as I've aged, I've softened -- but I know that isn't always true.)

As for the cruxifiction -- I appreciate the hope it gives me and you -- because even though we take the literalist part of it differently, it does give us both hope.

Thagrastay,

I don't see anyone in this thread mocking you.

If anything I see something mocking the beliefs of others in your very first post:


In otherwords, you came into this post not saying, "I believe you they are mutually exclusive," you came in proclaiming that they are mutually exclusive, and that we couldn't use other ways of thinking to look at Jesus.

If that isn't judgemental and possibly mocking, I don't know what is.

Then you made this statement:

Which again, indicates that the parameters of the Bible are the only way to look at the fact of Jesus life and crucifixion.

Yet you got offended when sexymama asks a very relevant question, relevant due to this:

According to the beliefs I have seen you espouse, Jesus clearly said this and what it means is also very clear.

Yet here you are on TFP, where you can lust all day long.

So it seems disingenuous to cry "foul" when someone looks at the Bible from different angles yet from appearences seems to not be walking the talk he talks and then gets called on it.

Finally, there are many Christians on the TFP, as well as many jews, atheists, agnostics, etc.

And to be sure, sometimes Christianity gets knocked pretty hard.

But mocking anyone's beliefs is NOT tolerated. I also happen to know that sexymama is not that kind of person, and if you spent any time reading her posts, you would know that as well.

So to use your own words, "lighten up".

Lebell, between you and sexymama, I actually enjoy the christian parts of these debates.As I am sure
people here know, I am not entirely of the faith, but if ever I was to consider returning....it would be because of these open minded , understanding, and compassionate faithful.
This, in my opinion is the reason Christianity is still a viable religion, and I choose to use your attitudes to base my opinion of the religion on. Good Job.

Thank you, thank you very much. Funny thing is, Lebell is Christian and it is a label I'm not comfortable wearing -- so don't claim to be. Yet we believe much the same. If I ever "was to consider returning" it would be because of him. (We do attend church together, and I learn much from him.)

Lebell,
you assume much. To the negative, it would seem.
Here, then. Look into my heart if you can, and tell me what you see.
Is it as dark and gruesome as you seem to think?
I tell you it is darker.
But the love of Meschiach has overcome all that.
I don't have any idea what it is you believe because there seems to be no foundation for it beyond what appeals to you.
Is that so?
That is not a judgement, mind you, that is a question.
An honest one.
I do not understand your viewpoint.
To quote Matthew 5:28 at me seems more an accusation than anything else. Are you implying I am here to look at your naked pictures? I tell you, I am not. But in the same context, then, why are you here?
Are only persons who mirror your viewpoint welcome here, or is it that you tolerate people of opposing views for a time and then bit by bit wear them down until they just go away?
Are not your opinions every bit as intolerant toward my point of view as you claim mine is toward yours? Yet you phrase yours in a way that seems more pleasing to the ears and that makes it gentler? But still you have made it clear that you are not above jabbing me in the ribs with a scriptural quote and thus implying that I don't belong here because a REAL Bible thumper wouldn't be here unless he had an ulterior motive and that motive would probably be to look at the naked pictures and lust after the women.
I am not a real Bible Thumper. I am a servant of Meschiach.
I am a follower of the Truth and I do not claim to be any more than that.
Show yourself, then. Plainly. Speak plainly and don't hide behind platitudes. Call a spade a spade and be done with it.
Let us not mince words with relative truths, because I learned long ago that when someone wants what they want, or something bothers them enough, all the relative niceties vanish and the real agendas and such come out plain as day.
Do it, then.
Am I welcome here in this tfp?
If not, specifically, why not?
If so, then let's get on with it, and let me be me and you be you and we can accept each other as we are and we will learn our common language and over time learn how to speak to one another. I won't tell you how to talk and you will allow me the latitude to learn your language as well.
What shall it be then?
Specifically?

Thragrastay,

You are welcome here as long as you follow forum rules.

They are tacked within each forum.

I can make it no plainer than that.

I see also that you have avoided my question.
very well.
make it so.

No, you are not correct.

You are correct, you do not understand my point of view.

Because I choose to be here.

Opposing viewpoints are welcome, so long as the poster follows forum rules.

No.

I believe now I have answered all the questions put to me.

very well, then. Thank you for taking the time from you very busy and unemployed schedule. I appreciate it. The love and tolerance you have shown me is remarkable and truly marks you as the kind of christian I would like to be as well. Is this what you call walking the walk?
I'll be certain to pay attention so that I might learn all I can from you on how to make myself perfect.

Let's try to tone down the sarcasm. /moderator

Thagrastay, I think that you took sexymama's question as an attack. I don't think it was meant as such. She was asking how, with your literalist view of the Bible, you come here with the pornography on the site. A simple "I don't look at it at all" would have sufficed. Instead, you accused her of accusing you...I'll attribute that to the flaws of the internet as a communication medium.

We all recognize that no one is perfect in following what they believe, so it wasn't an accusation or asking you to justify your presence here, just a curious question seeking clarification. You've made it clear you interpret the Bible literally and, thus, it was a question bound to come up. No need to get defensive - no one said you shouldn't be here, no one "turned up their nose."

As for being judgmental, there is a huge difference between expressing your view and TELLING everyone else not that YOU think they are wrong but that they ARE wrong. Unless you can prove to me, with the same certainty as you can prove 2+2=4 (discounting vectors ;)), that your view is right, it IS judgmental to tell someone that they are absolutely wrong and not allow for the possibility.

I BELIEVE atheists are incorrect in their belief that there is a God, and I'm more than willing and in my right to show them why I believe that in a courteous manner, but I must also allow for the fact that it cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a God. Therefore to simply TELL an atheist they are wrong, outside of the context of "I believe," *IS* judgmental. Likewise, to tell someone that the Bible simply flat out cannot be looked at from any other perspective than a literal one, outside of the context of simply you believing so, is judgmental. I can't speak for anyone else, and I don't feel like looking back in their posts, but I know that I have never swaid to you that your beliefs are wrong. I have only explained why I believe what I believe and, in some cases, that your beliefs about other beliefs are wrong. But I have never told you that what you believe is wrong. However, you HAVE told peopole - flat out - that what they believe is wrong, that the Bible cannot be looked at from any other perspective than a literal one, and so forth. That is judgmental, and I'm sorry if you can't recognize that. You're welcome to believe whatever you wish - we all are - and you're welcome to share it as well and explain why you believe it - that's what these threads are for. But to flat out say that anyone who looks at the Bible from a non-literalist perspective is wrong is judgmental.

So, please, continue to share your views - no one's saying you can't or shouldn't - but keep in mind that you cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what you say and, therefore, don't act like you can. Nothing can make me believe that there isn't a God, but unfortunately I can't prove what I believe to anyone who is atheist. Thus, I respect their right and their reasons for their beliefs and say that I BELIEVE they are wrong but not that they are positively wrong. There is a large difference. One recognizes my own imperfections and the other doesn't.

Anyways, that's all I have to say about this and I'd encourage this thread to get a little more on topic. While you may be coming across as judgmental and while you may have insulted a lot of people by telling them flat out that they are wrong, as if you're infallible, there's no reason to gang up on you.

I appreciate that. Thank you.
I took umrage to Sexymama's question because she asked me to justify my coming to tfp. I thought that a bit heavy handed.
In my own defense, please understand that as a Christian, I am fully allowed to eat meat sacrified to idols, handle poisonous snakes, eat tainted meats, whatever and no harm will befall me. (please note the humor I am injecting here) I have seen naked people before and as a former Pagan and Hedon have seen and done quite a bit in that there is nothing I might encounter that would shock me. BUt that is not why I am here at all. I am not a Jim Baker, so please don't lump me in with that ilk.
I love people. That is why I am here.
However, I had no idera that the median age of this forum was so exceptionally young. That explains a great deal.
This forum is made up primarily of high school and college students. Is that right?
What is the average age of the members in here? Comparatively, I am a Methuselah.
And since this is mostly populated by very young adults, it leads me to wonder why those of more advanced years are lurking about in here. Heh heh. Especially with all the porn and such to be had.
Hmmm. I believe I have just creeped myself out.

I agree w/ SecretMethod that your level of sarcasm needs to be reduced, especially since I don't think anyone here has done anything to merit it.

But I'll make you a deal.

If you want to ask a sincere question, then I will attempt to sincerely answer it.

But if you feel the need to continue to be sarcastic and question the integrity of my faith, then I must pass on further conversation with you.


edit to add,

You must have just posted as I was replying.

Just a conversational FYI, neither I nor sexymama are college age (i.e. 18-23). As a matter of fact we are just old enough to be SecretMethod's parents, if we started at 18.

But if you want to learn more about what I believe and how I got where I am, there is a rather extensive thread that has been buried for a while but is still accessable:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...&threadid=8526

Quick side-note...the average age here is definitely no lower than college-aged and I'd say it is likely mid 20's to mid 30's. Granted I don't interact with all the members here but I think a large number of active members are finished with college or close to it.

Even I, as disgusted with your attitude as I am....will agree to the above. If you can develop a truly open mind, and accept that we do not see things exactly as you do (as we have done with each other), then perhaps we can ALL learn from each other as intended.
s=&threadid=8526[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]

Ok, please, let me get this clear in my head now- I am wrong and you are right, and I have read Lebell's buried website where he answered questions in a rather authoratative state and that was OK because even though he mentioned the Bible on ocassion, he didn't demand it was true. But he had his disciples sitting at his feet none the less as he dolled out his views, and it was HOW he said things that made the difference.
OK.

I am not being sarcastic here!
Lebell, on the other hand was pretty damned caustic in his reply to me with his ice cold replies to my questions. I"I am here because I choose to be". That wasn't partonizing or sarcastic?
Now I am supposed to change MY attitude to conform to your views because you guys are right and I am wrong. tecoyah is disgusted with me, Lebell freezes me out, Sexymama asks me to justify my coming to tfp.
Who has the attitude problem?
I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe. By your actions and response to me you have made it abundantly clear that what I believe and how I believe it is not acceptable to you.
And with Lebell being a Trusted Super Moderator, others are of course going to take their cue from him.
Is this because I dared to criticize the Catholic church? If I recall, Lebell, didn't you study with the Jesuits? Or am I mistaken?
Well, be that as it may, I have studied religion and philosophy at least as much as you have, Lebell, and probably more.
I will agree to disagree with you people, but for all the tolerance and love and open-mindedness you claim to espouse, I will say the only one who has demonstrated any real semblance of it is SecretMethod70. Thank you for that.

Please, if you will- I asked before for someone to explain to me what it meant to Judge another and there was no response.
Could I get that explanation, please?

Also,tecoyah, if you would be so kind, could you explain to me what a "truly open mind" is? I am being serious. I would very much like to know.
If I am being closed minded, then I need to know how to change that. And since I don't know what I don't know, I will need to know what to change to. Please help me, if you would be willing.
Thank you.

Certainly, as requested.

"In my opinion", an open mind is willing to listen without"immediate" judgement.
We all judge eventually, as this is how humans make descisions.
"In my opinion", open mindedness defines ones ability to change, in small increments the reality percieved in everyday life.
"In my opinion", open minded converstaion gives respect, if not agreement, to the opinions of all.
We will all eventually fail in this regard, due to intolerance, frustration, or any number of emotions we feel towards the topic at hand.
"In my opinion",A truly open mind thrives on alternate explanations, in an attempt to better understand as much as possible, about as much as possible.
"In my opinion",Open minded people, rarely resort to personal attack, as it serves little purpose above immediate release of emotion.(guilty as charged)
"In my opinion",an open minded debate, leaves room for acceptance of error, for that is an admission of knowledge gained.
"In my opinion",Calling something "Wrong" is a hallmark of closed mindedness, as it shows a mind already made up.

If you look at most of these posts, you will notice a pattern.
They are not directed at your beliefs(for the most part), but rather at the attitude in which you project them. I take no issue with what you understand as reality, nor with anyone elses(unless you go to the politics board..lol)as most here will verify.
I cannot speak to the thoughts of others, but for myself, I find your unintended(I hope)sarcasm and direspect for differing opinions to be painful to read.

Should you decide to reply to this honest answer to your query, with further negative and close minded comments.....you will not hear from me again, as I have grown weary of this entire situation.If however, you decide to take some of this to heart, I am sure we can all benefit from intellectual growth.
You have much to teach....but need to learn to teach it.
Not preach it.

I am going to be absolutely honest with you. After all the exchanges we have had, my very first reaction was to write your last missive off as just another arrogant and patronizing slap in the face.
But upon further reflection, I realised that I do not know what reasons you would have for that course, and so I have decided to take your words at face value, with a truly open mind and leave all bias at the door.

You see, I, too, grow weary of things, but I also would like very much to learn to communicate, and I am willing to change my way of thinking to accomodate you if you are willing to teach me your language. I ask only that you have the same good grace to reciprocate when the time comes.

What say you, sir/ma'am?

Wonderful....and thank you for the reply.

edit- cant say I didnt try...bye

You know, I have been reading your posts on your thread on open-mindedness and it occurs to me that you don't want to be open minded , you just want to be right.

I have decided I want nothing you have.

Good luck with the control issue.

Let me state firstly that this is not intended with any sarcasm or condescension at all, but will genuine admiration for the machiavellian dynamics at play. I am amazed.
I have been re-reading this thread- what wonderful manipulation that was! Bravo! Especially Lebell! He went from espousing to offering answers to my menial questions. That was very well done. I did not even see that coming.
Tecoyah, too! That was wonderful! I am unclear exactly what it was that you claim to have tried, since I wa the one offering to capitulate, but you were wonderful in that you were able to walk away from that seeming as if it were your idea!
I have learned so very much from youtwo! You are Geniuses!
Bravo! Bravo!

:D :confused:

Please, if ever you feel the urge to address me in any way, shape or form, fight it.
I have encountered your type before and that type is generally found lurking in the dark or urging others to fight wars for them or in their place.
I would use the word "cowards" or "pseudo-intellectual snobs" but I don't think either of you would understand what I meant by that. So instead I will politely ask that you just refrain from further deliberate contact with unless you can find a way to change your souls.










lol at the souls, part

This is a public warning.
The grandstanding post above is offensive and out of bounds.
That should have been obvious before the "Submit Reply" button was hit the first time.

It was time to walk away from this long before the previous post.

I'm leaving this in place for the time being as an object lesson in taking public discussions beyond respectable personal limits and how not to proceed here.