Thagrastay

I have seen the "Off the Wayside", but only briefly. I have not visited "The full monty" "I visited "The Titty Board" briefly to see if it really was as advertised-it was, but have not visited the "Tilted Exhibition" and probably will not.
This is part of the modern culture, sadly, so That's the way it is. What am I to do about it? Are you expecting me to rant? Would it do any good?
I don't have to justify being a member of tfp, do I?
Is there a holiness clause in here somewhere? You claim to be a believer of some sort but your avatar is of a naked butt. Big deal. So you think your more evolved or progressive than me?
Get a grip. Jesus would be in here posting with you if He were walking the planet today. Why can't I? Man, you guys kill me.
Do you see me posting in your so-called "Porn" areas?
So, you hang out here, posting "dirty pictures" on the internet and dissing Christians and that makes you liberal and progressive?
Who are the hypocrites? The ones inchurch turning up their noses at you guys there, or you guys in here turning up your noses at me? Suddenly I have to justify being in here with you?
Jesus says that for the Believer, all things are permissable. But not all things are beneficial. I am covere3d in all things by ther blood of Christ. I am not in here to look at dirty pictures. I am in here for the conversation and the exchange of ideas and the artwork that is posted. If that is alright with you.
I don't recognize those sections you mentioned as "porn". I see themn as people compromising themselves infront of and with other people because they don't understand how truly wonderful and valuable they really are, and if they did, they would not do the things they do to themselves and others, but would love themselves and others so fully and completely and their hearts would be filled with joy and peace because of it. That is what I see. I mourn for the loss of their love and dignity. But what they do is their choice, and as such, is not my business.
Now you have your answer, and can commence to mock me as you wish. I would expect no less, but would really wish for much, much more.
Be well, be safe. Be at peace.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

Tophat665

OK, why Jesus was crucified: He was a threat (albeit a nearly totally non-violent one) to the religious authorities at the time. Yes they were Jewish, but that's really beside the point, they reacted the way the religious authorities in an occupied country might be best advised to do in general: they went to the occupying authority and brought their case, "This fellow is subverting our religion, stealing our followers and diluting our cash flow, and we'd really like it if you would kill him." Pilate acted in a totally reasonable way for the time, he acquiesced, but felt a bit icky about it when he saw and heard what he was going to be killing (still, not icky enough to call it off, though.) Crucifixion was a fairly common punishment, and by no means the worst the Romans had to offer in the capital department. (Not that I would want it done to me.)

It just made sense to do from the perspective of keeping the occupied people happy in paying their taxes and practicing their religion.

Oh, and Christianity <u>is</u> and eastern religion. Good and evil? That's from Persia. Virgin Birth? India and Persia. Resurrected redeemer god? Egypt and India. Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha, was accidentally canonized as Saint Jehosaphat (a corruption of Boshisattwa) by the Catholic Church in the 16th century, though he was later de-sanctified. Avatar <i>means</i> Incarnation, they're two words for the same thing. Unfortunately, Christianity has largely stamped out western religion, and all that's left are the holidays, a handful of saints, the shape of the Christian devil, and a handful of Wiccans who get very little attention (likely by design).

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sexymama

Thagrastay, I feel for you, truly I do. I am not attacking, I simply asked a question. I see from your reply that you feel totally justified in your actions and choices. That is wonderful. So do I.

Just an fyi, my avatar is very significant. It represents my choosing to submit to Lebell in all areas of our life together.

I am glad that you are in here for the conversation. My prayer for you is that you will learn to converse rather than simply sharing your view; because my experienc of you (still) is that you feel that you are right and that we are wrong and that you are here to "enlighten us." I say that, because you use extremely judgemental language.

I am not mocking you -- I simply feel pity for you. I also pray that as you mature, you will soften your approach as I'm afraid your harshness turns a lot of people away. (Believe me, this is not a judgement as I know that I too am very strong and opinionated. I hope that as I've aged, I've softened -- but I know that isn't always true.)

As for the cruxifiction -- I appreciate the hope it gives me and you -- because even though we take the literalist part of it differently, it does give us both hope.

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If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

Lebell

Thagrastay,

I don't see anyone in this thread mocking you.

If anything I see something mocking the beliefs of others in your very first post:


In otherwords, you came into this post not saying, "I believe you they are mutually exclusive," you came in proclaiming that they are mutually exclusive, and that we couldn't use other ways of thinking to look at Jesus.

If that isn't judgemental and possibly mocking, I don't know what is.

Then you made this statement:

Which again, indicates that the parameters of the Bible are the only way to look at the fact of Jesus life and crucifixion.

Yet you got offended when sexymama asks a very relevant question, relevant due to this:

According to the beliefs I have seen you espouse, Jesus clearly said this and what it means is also very clear.

Yet here you are on TFP, where you can lust all day long.

So it seems disingenuous to cry "foul" when someone looks at the Bible from different angles yet from appearences seems to not be walking the talk he talks and then gets called on it.

Finally, there are many Christians on the TFP, as well as many jews, atheists, agnostics, etc.

And to be sure, sometimes Christianity gets knocked pretty hard.

But mocking anyone's beliefs is NOT tolerated. I also happen to know that sexymama is not that kind of person, and if you spent any time reading her posts, you would know that as well.

So to use your own words, "lighten up".

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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tecoyah

Lebell, between you and sexymama, I actually enjoy the christian parts of these debates.As I am sure
people here know, I am not entirely of the faith, but if ever I was to consider returning....it would be because of these open minded , understanding, and compassionate faithful.
This, in my opinion is the reason Christianity is still a viable religion, and I choose to use your attitudes to base my opinion of the religion on. Good Job.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

sexymama

Thank you, thank you very much. Funny thing is, Lebell is Christian and it is a label I'm not comfortable wearing -- so don't claim to be. Yet we believe much the same. If I ever "was to consider returning" it would be because of him. (We do attend church together, and I learn much from him.)

__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

Thagrastay

Lebell,
you assume much. To the negative, it would seem.
Here, then. Look into my heart if you can, and tell me what you see.
Is it as dark and gruesome as you seem to think?
I tell you it is darker.
But the love of Meschiach has overcome all that.
I don't have any idea what it is you believe because there seems to be no foundation for it beyond what appeals to you.
Is that so?
That is not a judgement, mind you, that is a question.
An honest one.
I do not understand your viewpoint.
To quote Matthew 5:28 at me seems more an accusation than anything else. Are you implying I am here to look at your naked pictures? I tell you, I am not. But in the same context, then, why are you here?
Are only persons who mirror your viewpoint welcome here, or is it that you tolerate people of opposing views for a time and then bit by bit wear them down until they just go away?
Are not your opinions every bit as intolerant toward my point of view as you claim mine is toward yours? Yet you phrase yours in a way that seems more pleasing to the ears and that makes it gentler? But still you have made it clear that you are not above jabbing me in the ribs with a scriptural quote and thus implying that I don't belong here because a REAL Bible thumper wouldn't be here unless he had an ulterior motive and that motive would probably be to look at the naked pictures and lust after the women.
I am not a real Bible Thumper. I am a servant of Meschiach.
I am a follower of the Truth and I do not claim to be any more than that.
Show yourself, then. Plainly. Speak plainly and don't hide behind platitudes. Call a spade a spade and be done with it.
Let us not mince words with relative truths, because I learned long ago that when someone wants what they want, or something bothers them enough, all the relative niceties vanish and the real agendas and such come out plain as day.
Do it, then.
Am I welcome here in this tfp?
If not, specifically, why not?
If so, then let's get on with it, and let me be me and you be you and we can accept each other as we are and we will learn our common language and over time learn how to speak to one another. I won't tell you how to talk and you will allow me the latitude to learn your language as well.
What shall it be then?
Specifically?

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

Lebell

Thragrastay,

You are welcome here as long as you follow forum rules.

They are tacked within each forum.

I can make it no plainer than that.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Thagrastay

I see also that you have avoided my question.
very well.
make it so.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

Lebell

No, you are not correct.

You are correct, you do not understand my point of view.

Because I choose to be here.

Opposing viewpoints are welcome, so long as the poster follows forum rules.

No.

I believe now I have answered all the questions put to me.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Thagrastay

very well, then. Thank you for taking the time from you very busy and unemployed schedule. I appreciate it. The love and tolerance you have shown me is remarkable and truly marks you as the kind of christian I would like to be as well. Is this what you call walking the walk?
I'll be certain to pay attention so that I might learn all I can from you on how to make myself perfect.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

SecretMethod70

Let's try to tone down the sarcasm. /moderator

Thagrastay, I think that you took sexymama's question as an attack. I don't think it was meant as such. She was asking how, with your literalist view of the Bible, you come here with the pornography on the site. A simple "I don't look at it at all" would have sufficed. Instead, you accused her of accusing you...I'll attribute that to the flaws of the internet as a communication medium.

We all recognize that no one is perfect in following what they believe, so it wasn't an accusation or asking you to justify your presence here, just a curious question seeking clarification. You've made it clear you interpret the Bible literally and, thus, it was a question bound to come up. No need to get defensive - no one said you shouldn't be here, no one "turned up their nose."

As for being judgmental, there is a huge difference between expressing your view and TELLING everyone else not that YOU think they are wrong but that they ARE wrong. Unless you can prove to me, with the same certainty as you can prove 2+2=4 (discounting vectors ), that your view is right, it IS judgmental to tell someone that they are absolutely wrong and not allow for the possibility.

I BELIEVE atheists are incorrect in their belief that there is a God, and I'm more than willing and in my right to show them why I believe that in a courteous manner, but I must also allow for the fact that it cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a God. Therefore to simply TELL an atheist they are wrong, outside of the context of "I believe," *IS* judgmental. Likewise, to tell someone that the Bible simply flat out cannot be looked at from any other perspective than a literal one, outside of the context of simply you believing so, is judgmental. I can't speak for anyone else, and I don't feel like looking back in their posts, but I know that I have never swaid to you that your beliefs are wrong. I have only explained why I believe what I believe and, in some cases, that your beliefs about other beliefs are wrong. But I have never told you that what you believe is wrong. However, you HAVE told peopole - flat out - that what they believe is wrong, that the Bible cannot be looked at from any other perspective than a literal one, and so forth. That is judgmental, and I'm sorry if you can't recognize that. You're welcome to believe whatever you wish - we all are - and you're welcome to share it as well and explain why you believe it - that's what these threads are for. But to flat out say that anyone who looks at the Bible from a non-literalist perspective is wrong is judgmental.

So, please, continue to share your views - no one's saying you can't or shouldn't - but keep in mind that you cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what you say and, therefore, don't act like you can. Nothing can make me believe that there isn't a God, but unfortunately I can't prove what I believe to anyone who is atheist. Thus, I respect their right and their reasons for their beliefs and say that I BELIEVE they are wrong but not that they are positively wrong. There is a large difference. One recognizes my own imperfections and the other doesn't.

Anyways, that's all I have to say about this and I'd encourage this thread to get a little more on topic. While you may be coming across as judgmental and while you may have insulted a lot of people by telling them flat out that they are wrong, as if you're infallible, there's no reason to gang up on you.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Thagrastay

I appreciate that. Thank you.
I took umrage to Sexymama's question because she asked me to justify my coming to tfp. I thought that a bit heavy handed.
In my own defense, please understand that as a Christian, I am fully allowed to eat meat sacrified to idols, handle poisonous snakes, eat tainted meats, whatever and no harm will befall me. (please note the humor I am injecting here) I have seen naked people before and as a former Pagan and Hedon have seen and done quite a bit in that there is nothing I might encounter that would shock me. BUt that is not why I am here at all. I am not a Jim Baker, so please don't lump me in with that ilk.
I love people. That is why I am here.
However, I had no idera that the median age of this forum was so exceptionally young. That explains a great deal.
This forum is made up primarily of high school and college students. Is that right?
What is the average age of the members in here? Comparatively, I am a Methuselah.
And since this is mostly populated by very young adults, it leads me to wonder why those of more advanced years are lurking about in here. Heh heh. Especially with all the porn and such to be had.
Hmmm. I believe I have just creeped myself out.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

Lebell

I agree w/ SecretMethod that your level of sarcasm needs to be reduced, especially since I don't think anyone here has done anything to merit it.

But I'll make you a deal.

If you want to ask a sincere question, then I will attempt to sincerely answer it.

But if you feel the need to continue to be sarcastic and question the integrity of my faith, then I must pass on further conversation with you.


edit to add,

You must have just posted as I was replying.

Just a conversational FYI, neither I nor sexymama are college age (i.e. 18-23). As a matter of fact we are just old enough to be SecretMethod's parents, if we started at 18.

But if you want to learn more about what I believe and how I got where I am, there is a rather extensive thread that has been buried for a while but is still accessable:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...&threadid=8526

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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SecretMethod70

Quick side-note...the average age here is definitely no lower than college-aged and I'd say it is likely mid 20's to mid 30's. Granted I don't interact with all the members here but I think a large number of active members are finished with college or close to it.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

tecoyah

Even I, as disgusted with your attitude as I am....will agree to the above. If you can develop a truly open mind, and accept that we do not see things exactly as you do (as we have done with each other), then perhaps we can ALL learn from each other as intended.
s=&threadid=8526[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Thagrastay

Ok, please, let me get this clear in my head now- I am wrong and you are right, and I have read Lebell's buried website where he answered questions in a rather authoratative state and that was OK because even though he mentioned the Bible on ocassion, he didn't demand it was true. But he had his disciples sitting at his feet none the less as he dolled out his views, and it was HOW he said things that made the difference.
OK.

I am not being sarcastic here!
Lebell, on the other hand was pretty damned caustic in his reply to me with his ice cold replies to my questions. I"I am here because I choose to be". That wasn't partonizing or sarcastic?
Now I am supposed to change MY attitude to conform to your views because you guys are right and I am wrong. tecoyah is disgusted with me, Lebell freezes me out, Sexymama asks me to justify my coming to tfp.
Who has the attitude problem?
I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe. By your actions and response to me you have made it abundantly clear that what I believe and how I believe it is not acceptable to you.
And with Lebell being a Trusted Super Moderator, others are of course going to take their cue from him.
Is this because I dared to criticize the Catholic church? If I recall, Lebell, didn't you study with the Jesuits? Or am I mistaken?
Well, be that as it may, I have studied religion and philosophy at least as much as you have, Lebell, and probably more.
I will agree to disagree with you people, but for all the tolerance and love and open-mindedness you claim to espouse, I will say the only one who has demonstrated any real semblance of it is SecretMethod70. Thank you for that.

Please, if you will- I asked before for someone to explain to me what it meant to Judge another and there was no response.
Could I get that explanation, please?

Also,tecoyah, if you would be so kind, could you explain to me what a "truly open mind" is? I am being serious. I would very much like to know.
If I am being closed minded, then I need to know how to change that. And since I don't know what I don't know, I will need to know what to change to. Please help me, if you would be willing.
Thank you.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

tecoyah

Certainly, as requested.

"In my opinion", an open mind is willing to listen without"immediate" judgement.
We all judge eventually, as this is how humans make descisions.
"In my opinion", open mindedness defines ones ability to change, in small increments the reality percieved in everyday life.
"In my opinion", open minded converstaion gives respect, if not agreement, to the opinions of all.
We will all eventually fail in this regard, due to intolerance, frustration, or any number of emotions we feel towards the topic at hand.
"In my opinion",A truly open mind thrives on alternate explanations, in an attempt to better understand as much as possible, about as much as possible.
"In my opinion",Open minded people, rarely resort to personal attack, as it serves little purpose above immediate release of emotion.(guilty as charged)
"In my opinion",an open minded debate, leaves room for acceptance of error, for that is an admission of knowledge gained.
"In my opinion",Calling something "Wrong" is a hallmark of closed mindedness, as it shows a mind already made up.

If you look at most of these posts, you will notice a pattern.
They are not directed at your beliefs(for the most part), but rather at the attitude in which you project them. I take no issue with what you understand as reality, nor with anyone elses(unless you go to the politics board..lol)as most here will verify.
I cannot speak to the thoughts of others, but for myself, I find your unintended(I hope)sarcasm and direspect for differing opinions to be painful to read.

Should you decide to reply to this honest answer to your query, with further negative and close minded comments.....you will not hear from me again, as I have grown weary of this entire situation.If however, you decide to take some of this to heart, I am sure we can all benefit from intellectual growth.
You have much to teach....but need to learn to teach it.
Not preach it.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Thagrastay

I am going to be absolutely honest with you. After all the exchanges we have had, my very first reaction was to write your last missive off as just another arrogant and patronizing slap in the face.
But upon further reflection, I realised that I do not know what reasons you would have for that course, and so I have decided to take your words at face value, with a truly open mind and leave all bias at the door.

You see, I, too, grow weary of things, but I also would like very much to learn to communicate, and I am willing to change my way of thinking to accomodate you if you are willing to teach me your language. I ask only that you have the same good grace to reciprocate when the time comes.

What say you, sir/ma'am?

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

tecoyah

Wonderful....and thank you for the reply.

edit- cant say I didnt try...bye

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Thagrastay

You know, I have been reading your posts on your thread on open-mindedness and it occurs to me that you don't want to be open minded , you just want to be right.

I have decided I want nothing you have.

Good luck with the control issue.

__________________
"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

Thagrastay

Let me state firstly that this is not intended with any sarcasm or condescension at all, but will genuine admiration for the machiavellian dynamics at play. I am amazed.
I have been re-reading this thread- what wonderful manipulation that was! Bravo! Especially Lebell! He went from espousing to offering answers to my menial questions. That was very well done. I did not even see that coming.
Tecoyah, too! That was wonderful! I am unclear exactly what it was that you claim to have tried, since I wa the one offering to capitulate, but you were wonderful in that you were able to walk away from that seeming as if it were your idea!
I have learned so very much from youtwo! You are Geniuses!
Bravo! Bravo!

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

Lebell

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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tecoyah

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Thagrastay

Please, if ever you feel the urge to address me in any way, shape or form, fight it.
I have encountered your type before and that type is generally found lurking in the dark or urging others to fight wars for them or in their place.
I would use the word "cowards" or "pseudo-intellectual snobs" but I don't think either of you would understand what I meant by that. So instead I will politely ask that you just refrain from further deliberate contact with unless you can find a way to change your souls.










lol at the souls, part

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

ARTelevision

This is a public warning.
The grandstanding post above is offensive and out of bounds.
That should have been obvious before the "Submit Reply" button was hit the first time.

It was time to walk away from this long before the previous post.

I'm leaving this in place for the time being as an object lesson in taking public discussions beyond respectable personal limits and how not to proceed here.

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