Seer666

While I agree with you there, I have one problem. It costs me more money. And that just makes me want to kill them and be done with it.

__________________
Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

nash

How do you define "killing"? My definitions of "to kill" and "to murder" are different from each other. So for me, I say killing is necessary (or even preferred) in some cases whereas murdering people is wrong.

soccerchamp76

I agree with nash
To kill is different to murder.
For those with the karma argument against killing the person. How about this: instant karmac (spelling?) revenge. Their karma is having you be there at that moment with the intent to kill. That is karma. If there was none, he would get away with the crime, however, the karma got him in the middle of the act.
My philosophy on the situations: kill the fuckers.
If I seem some asshole raping ANYBODY I would feel as if I HAD to help the victim out and beat the living shit out of the criminal until he is dead. Rape is the worst crime you can live through threfore the rapists should get the worst possible punishments. Vigilante justice at its best. I doubt a jury would convict a man of murder if he kills a man in the middle of raping someone......

__________________
Brian Griffin: Ah, if my memory serves me, this is the physics department.
Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

hilbert25

Intenionally killing is wrong, no matter what the circumstances. People can and will recover from anything you do to them, save one thing, and that's killing them. It's the only truly permanent effect that you can have on someone Maiming, mentally harming, whatever, those can be counteracted in some small way, killing cannot.

If someone was going to rape my family, hopefully I'd find some way to stop him, short of killing him. A steel-toed boot to the scrotum would probably change his mind and it would
be hard to think about sex after I sledgehammered his knee.

If you believe in an afterlife and would like it to be pleasant, than wouldn't you want other people to feel such pleasantness? Killing someone, under any kind of belief system that has anything like karma would make that person suffer, but if they survived, they'd have a chance to make right what they did. If you don't give them a chance to make amends, aren't you condeming them to a bad existence, which if you believed in anything that has an afterlife dependent on your current life's behaviour, wouldn't you have just commited an attrocity that would assure yourself a bad place also?

That being said, with something like what is currently happening with the US army, I will not hold it against any one of them if they need to kill anyone. I want them to be as safe as possible. The ones that I believe should be held responsible, however are the leaders of the armed forces that put the enlisted men and women into such a situation.

Seer666

While I think that this is a good start, I have to say, that if someone shows he is not capable of getting alon with the rest of the planet, in case just like this, or obaying the rules, or at least being smart enough to not get caught, then keeping this person alive is doing nothing but slowing the rest of the human race down in trying to deal with scumbags like this. In my eyes, death is much kinder then imprisenment, much cheeper, and really, it would be better for the rest of the planet As this guys has just shown that consideration for others is not a concern of his, then consideration for him is not a concern for us. It is in the rest of the human races best intrests to just be ride of him so we can get on with our lives. Kill him and be done with it. That simple.

__________________
Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

iamnormal

Do onto others as you would have done onto you.

It is inherent that most life wants to live but for life to continue other life must fade. It's the way it's been and it's the way it will be.

analog

NOTE: I speak as a religious person, from a religious viewpoint.

Absolutely. This is not a wrongful death. I do not think anyone would be punished (as by God, etc.) for killing a person under such circumstances.

I believe that God has given me the means to act and the mind to decide right and wrong- and when the time comes to pull the trigger, if I truly believe it is the only recourse, and the right thing to do, I will not be punished for it.

gorilla

I agree completely. killing is natural. Cats kill mice all the time for no apparent reason other then curiousity and humans encourage it. If I had just cause, I could kill any one.

__________________
I'll bet you $5 that you read the previous word...

prosequence

So, do you think the "terrorists" or Sept 11 thought they were in the right?

__________________
And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

Seer666

To their point of views, yes. That doesn't mean they were sane, but they thought they were doing the right thing from their point of view. Remeber, your enemy never views himself as evil. Keep this in mind and it will help you understand him and befriend him. Or kill him quickly and painlessly if need be.


Yes, I read a lot of Hienlien.

__________________
Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

Jesus Pimp

What about killing people for food like the cannibals in central africa?

__________________
Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

Seer666

Well, as long as you aren't wasting anything I guess.....

__________________
Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

Spanxxx

Where do you think your parents received those notions of rights and wrongs? The United States, and most countries for that matter, have laws against killing other people. Often these laws trickled down from the religions that formed and shaped the peoples of those nations. As for the US, which was founded as a "Christian State" in essence, it's laws were thus laid out very accordingly like the bible's own messages on rights and wrongs.

Therefore, your parents telling you "not to kill someone" is still based on a message that they learned through training from a life under the reign of a nation founded on the bible.


Now, removing the bible and religion entirely, you can also make the judgement that outlawing killing and vigilante violence from a society leads to a more productive and structured populace that understands there are consequences to its actions and hopefully deters from actions that harm others. Of course, that doesn't necessarily stop anyone from hiring a good lawyer and getting away with what they've done. "If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit!"

Slavakion

Okay, but what about this?

A loved one is in the hospital, suffering, with no chance to recover. He/she has about 2 more years to love, which will be filled completely with suffering. A big thing keeping him/her alive is certain medication which is taken daily. Is it wrong to either let him/her stop taking the meds, or to help him/her not take the meds?

Otaku

but in killing them, dont you then give up your own right to humanity?

You are setting out to kill someone, thus losing all value to humanity.

Seer666

No, you are TAKING your right to humanity and your right to live unharmed by people that would do you and others harm. MURDER is wrong, killing in selfdefense or defense of a loved one is another thing completely. Have some mad man come at you child with intent to kill and do harm and see how much your humanity means if you do nothing.

__________________
Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

Aborted

Not so. Killing predates the bible and all religious texts and thus the bible cannot be interpreted as being the foundation of western law. Besides, even if, thousands of years ago, some angry caveman saw his mate have his face broken on a rock by another angry caveman, and decided that murder was a crime and that it should be written as such, they still would have had to come to that conclusion through basic instinct- an immediate reaction to what he had just seen.

I believe that the basic grasp of right and wrong is instilled in us in the same way as, say, the need to reproduce, and modern law enables us to develop this instinct into an acute understanding. Of course it's not quite as simple as that, as it's inevitable that there will be variation from extreme to extreme (pacifism to sadism, for example), but I doubt that if we all woke up one morning to find law no longer existed, the murder of as many people as possible would be the first thing on our agendas.

Religion is just an easy target in any argument.

Menoman

I think Aborted touched on what I would say, I know there are tons of animals that will kill each other, selfdefense/defense of territory/mating rights.

It would be a hard discussion due to todays civilization I do not think we truly know what could be right or wrong because we are bred into believing that what the law says should be morals, which isnt the way to go about a discussion about what our base morals were when we truly had animalistic behavior

Now since animals have no true sociality to answer to they are in as pure a form as we were when we were apes -> cavemen and the like.

I cannot say I think killing is truly wrong. I don't think that with our civilized world today that it should be happening either, but thats what happens when our morals are based on law from enviroment.

Factors such as ability to communicate, which animals mostly cannot do as well. Levels of attachment to each others , which most animals only have within immidiate family, come into play if we were to try to bring the theory to human species.

But, also there are many animals that kill their mating partner after the deed is done (praying mantis) and kill their own offspring (dogs at times) and some that will kill their own brother/sister soon after birth (sharks).

So my theory has holes in it

__________________

Seer666

I am going to disagree with you on right and wrong being related to instinct. Just about every behavoir that is viewed as "wrong" in the modern world, has at some point been viewed as right by another culture at some point. Rape was considered an exeptible past time, and a weapon of war. Patricide has been a great and acceptible way to climb the soical ladder for may cultures. Right and wrong are not instinct, but simple functions of society. As such, killing is right if done in a way that society agrees with, like defense of self or a loved one. Or if they are a terrorist fucktard. Instinct does not right or wrong make.

__________________
Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

gondath

On the issue of instinct, even those can be altered. You can be conditioned to not so much as flinch when seeing a death by the proper training. People can hold their breath until they pass out even if the instinct is to breath.

Seer666

Some people don't need training to not flinch at death. If you know that death is just part of life and not something to make abig deal out of, then you should be good to go for the most part. Some people even enjoy it. And yes, people can hold their breath untill they pass out. It's called will power. But how many people can hold their breath AFTER they have passed out? Once the mind is not running things anymore, instinct always kicks in. So you can train yourself to fight instinct, but I don't think you can break it. Humans have lots of instincts, all relating to survival and breeding, but right and wrong do not fall under that heading. They are simply ideas we've been conditioned with for so long that people mistake them for such.

__________________
Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

tiberry

Killing is just an act. There is nothing inherently "wrong" or "right" with any act that we commit. Who would be the judge of what's right and wrong? - I mean the ultimate judge? If you say "God" - then there was no need to even ask this question, as you already know the answer...so assuming that religion is removed from the equation:

There is no "right" and "wrong" - only action.

__________________
My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.

Jesus Pimp

__________________
Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

Amarth

Whew this thread again? I think I'll go for simplicity this time.

Yes.

MageB420666

Is killing wrong? No.
Is murder wrong? yes.
The difference? A murder initiates the act and situationby theirself.
Someone who kills has the situation forced upon them.

Should capitol punishment be allowed? Hell, yes. Prison is not a punishment. It is being fed, clothed, and provided for. We need to bring back actual punishments for crimes. Cut off the thief's hand, castrate the rapist and then slowly torture them to death over a few years(It's less than what the victim is dealing with), and kill the murderer.

I can garuntee that after just a few months of this rape, murder, and theft rates will drop like a stone dropped from a very high place down to a very low place.

__________________
Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

gondath

the deterrent to killing every convincted murderer, rapist, etc, is the number of innocents who will invariably be excuted along with them. The justice system is far from perfect in any country. I believe punishment for crimes deserves its own thread, though.

Jadedfox

May I suggest this as therapy for you all?

--jaded

__________________
There is no fucking you, there is only me.

macmanmike6100

hard to justify but not inherently wrong. let me say, though, that I don't believe that anything is inherently right or wrong. to say that would be to say that if we had not created a context for an action's "rightness" or "wrongness," there is right and wrong regardless.

omid

__________________
Kick butt buzz-cut dickheads who didn't like what I said.
The good times are killing me.
Jaws clenching tight we talked all night, oh but what the hell did we say?
The good times are killing me.

pig

Hmmm...for me, I personally reject the notion that all life is meaningless, because I find it a rather horrid worldview to adopt, and in the end sort of useless. Moving on from there, it seems to me that killing in defense or yourself or a loved one, assuming that you are not the aggressor, is not only justifiable emotionally, but logically as well. I used to be an absolute pacifist, and I do agree with the notion of the cycle of violence - but if someone else is definately going to commit an unprovoked violent act, and I would argue is therefore more likely to do so again, or I'm going to commit the violent act to stop them, I feel justified in taking their life if need be. I would perhaps agree with capital punishment in theory, but for practical considerations I disagree with it. It would seem that is both way to easy to kill someone who is innocent, and that it gives a tremendous amount of power to the government with can be abused. In short - I kill in self-defense : State sanctioned killing of people for same offense

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Mel

Use as much force on them as they do on you and if the offender dies that was in self defence and therefore justified. Killing for any other reason like revenge or some sick fantasy is... wrong

__________________