This was the old evolution thread, go to the new thread to post

[Fibrosa]

Originally posted by Killconey
Maybe its a little more complicated than people think, but its also not mutually exclusive. Darwin couldn't find evidence to disprove the actions of God and Christians for the most part support science. The only thing still seperating the two camps is the stubborn conclusion that one of them has to be right and the other has to be wrong.

Darwin wasn't out to find evidence to disprove God. Evolution doesn't dispute God, it doesn't touch on that subject. The problem is, some christians stick to a literal Genesis, which was disproved long before Darwin.

[happyraul]

If you belong strictly to one of the creationist camps I outlined, you are unable to accept some part of what mainstream biology accepts as the way things are, because you would inevitably contradict one of your beliefs. That is not to say you are unable to practice science, just that you don't agree with what is for the most part accepted. However, evolution is not really a theory of origin, so I guess in that regard, the two don't conflict, but there is still the business of randomness and purpose.

[Fibrosa]

Originally posted by happyraul
If you belong strictly to one of the creationist camps I outlined, you are unable to accept some part of what mainstream biology accepts as the way things are, because you would inevitably contradict one of your beliefs. That is not to say you are unable to practice science, just that you don't agree with what is for the most part accepted. However, evolution is not really a theory of origin, so I guess in that regard, the two don't conflict, but there is still the business of randomness and purpose.

I'm sure you realize this, but it's not only biology that has to be rejected, but physics, geology, astronomy, etc. I know what you are saying though, I'm just trying to clarify...think of the lurkers...

[Jdoe]

Originally posted by happyraul
If you belong strictly to one of the creationist camps I outlined, you are unable to accept some part of what mainstream biology accepts as the way things are, because you would inevitably contradict one of your beliefs. That is not to say you are unable to practice science, just that you don't agree with what is for the most part accepted. However, evolution is not really a theory of origin, so I guess in that regard, the two don't conflict, but there is still the business of randomness and purpose.

This is actually a very incorrect statement. You would have to ignore that the majority of significant scientific discoveries between the 1400's and the 1900's were made by Christian scientists to believe it.

On another point. It is not complicated at all if you are a believer in God and the Bible. For one simple reason:

Death came after sin. In order for literal evolution to occur, and I'm not talking about minor changes where some fish lose their eyes after some generations in a cave, you would have to assume that death came before. Which is a contradiction to Biblical belief.

Jdoe

[happyraul]

What does being a Christian have to do with practicing science? I said it myself, you can be an effective scientist and be a Christian, but you may not agree with what the mainstream says is correct.

Death came after sin. In order for literal evolution to occur, and I'm not talking about minor changes where some fish lose their eyes after some generations in a cave, you would have to assume that death came before. Which is a contradiction to Biblical belief.

It's not that easy, for not all people that believe in God and the Bible believe in it the same way. That is to say not everyone interprets things the same way. I am assuming you are saying that since Adam & Eve existed before sin, it is impossible for them to have evolved since evolution cannot occur without death, right? Well not everyone believes the Adam & Eve part like that, so it is not simple for them.

And for those who do believe it literally, this would certainly stand in the way of believing in evolution from a common ancestor. However, this flies in the face of mainstream science, which is supported by evidence. The only thing that stands against it is the Bible.

[Jdoe]

Good grief happyraul. I think I completely misread your statement I quoted. My apologies. Must refer to rule #1 at this moment:

Jdoe is not allowed to post under the influence!

As for the rest. Yes it depends entirely on interpretation. Although some things are integral parts of principle absolutes, regardless of different interpreted possibilities. But I don't think I'm nearly qualified to start discussing that. Plus discussions on absolutes rarely go far beyond agree to disagree.

Jdoe

[CSflim]

don't reposted threads normally get locked?
Not complaining....just wondering...

[numist_net]

I know that this may not represent all the creationists, but I would like to post this link: http://objective.jesussave.us/wackyevolutionists.html

its about "wacky evolutionists" (which, I am afraid to say, I am one).

Evolutionists! You never know what wacky nonsense they'll spout next! On this page, I will collect and dissect the excesses of their unsupportable philosophy. While this could be viewed as a humorous, even cruel, endeavor, my intention is not to mock (although sometimes it is impossible not to, given the source material). Instead, I hope to expose exactly what passes for Evolutionist thought and why it is so flawed, so that the Truth of Creation will stand out even more stark against the background of Evolutionism that our culture has been draped in.

This is from the same site as the christian science fair, so it makes for good reading.

Couldn't resist, so sorry.

scott

[Killconey]

Yeah, I must say that Christians do have the majority of the weirdos on this issue.

[Redlemon]

Originally posted by Killconey
Here's an interesting way of explaining creation and evolution in the same breath that I discovered recently:

Imagine if you will, God playing Sim Life. He lays the groundwork and sets everything up, but then proceeds to get bored and hit the speed up button until things look the way he wanted. Thus God used both creation and evolution to solve his problems.

Have you ever looked at Deism? That's pretty much the "belief" system (aka God the Watchmaker).

[The_Dude]

I like this quote

" [God] is the creation of ignorant and frightened humans in need of explanation to the fundamental quagmire of their existance."

explains it pretty well to me.

[CSflim]

Originally posted by The_Dude
I like this quote



explains it pretty well to me.

Yup.
Life in itself is meaningless abd pointless.
Get used to it,
and then start to GIVE it a meaning, and to GIVE it a point.
Just hanging around. watching the years tick by, for the time when everything will be wonderful...pretty sad.

[numist_net]

well, we give life its meaning by the actions that we do. Every day when we go outside, whenever we see someone else, we are making a difference, and giving life a meaning. Its a simplistic way to look at things, but it does work. Try it:

Next time you are just out walking somewhere, try smiling, and keep smiling for your entire walk. If you see someone on your walk, say 'hello' to them with your smile, and watch what happens.

It rarely fails.

[happyraul]

I believe that Christian science fair site is a hoax/parody.

[fnaqzna]

Originally posted by happyraul
Evolution, or decent with modification is fact. This is no longer debated, it is the mechanisms by which this happens that are debated.

You would be amazed... http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/index.htm


Enjoy!

[CSflim]

Originally posted by happyraul
I believe that Christian science fair site is a hoax/parody.

What makes you think that?
(look around, there's more to that site than jus tthat page)
Admitedly fundies are pretty funny (woah...funny fundies!), but I don't think that site is a hoax at all. Unfortunately people such as this exist, and even more tragically, they seem to think that they have the right to pervert the course of science/education/government/logic.

I also LOVE how they have an entire page devoted to
"Dawkins Watch".

[Lebell]

Yes, that "Objective" site is a parody, even deeper under cover than "Landover Baptist".

If you don't believe me, check out what you can buy in their online store:



Also, they are using the same store as "Landover", Cafepress.

I would guess the same people are involved.

[THE MAC GOD]

Life will happen in a universe that is wired for life.

[CSflim]

Originally posted by Lebell
Yes, that "Objective" site is a parody, even deeper under cover than "Landover Baptist".

Yeah...I take it back....I just noticed their "Macs are the work of the devil" page. It is a hoax.

The sad thing is that it is not too far off much of what I have read by "Creation Science" writers.

[The.Lunatic]

Okay i've got a somewhat limited knoledge on this, but i'm assuming its more than most.

1) matter is just trapped energy

2) in partical accerators they can fling energy at other energy and temporarly creat anitmatter and matter. antimatter is just negativly charged protons and positivly charged electrons if i'm not mistaken.

3) Our universe came from a singularity a point of infinte energy.

4) i'm bored my roomate shaved his facial hair and told me they were going to watch appocolypse now so i'm not going to my physics class or going to finish this post.

Regardless the universe is unchaoitic, and it spawned from pure energy. There is perfect symitry in all things. Sounds like the work of god to me.

[THE MAC GOD]

Everyone here needs to objectively read "The Hidden Face of God". It doesn't push religion, but it shows the direct correlation between science and religion. It will answer most questions posed here. Also, it's written by a reknowned Nuclear Physisist who actually quotes literature from the Aramaic instead of random translations. The actual translation clears up a lot of shit by itself.

[Jonny123]

I'll just throw in my thoughts:

he first question we must look at is if there is a god or not. Was the human race created by a higher power? How do we all have the perfect bodies that allow us to see, smell, reproduce, breathe and eat. Simpily evolution couldnt give us all of these features.. So what did?

I beg to differ - I see it being all evolution. In fact, it's evolution which brought about that brain power you used to perceive something being too perfect for evolution. And quickly touching on the perfect thing....I dunno about you, but last time I checked - our bodies are far from perfect...

Another thought I would like to bring up is about time. The universe had to start somewhere, but how did it start? There are many theories about this subject, some too far complex for people un understand..

this question...hmm... i always feel like my brain is going to explode. I think you said it in your question though... IMO, being the atheist I am, we are what we are...people on a planet, amongst a whole load of other unexplored, unknown shit.. what it started from we will NEVER know...and frankly, I think we should stop looking for the answer, honestly.

[genuinegirly]

So, I dug up this old thread because I was going to start a thread, and realized the topic has probably been discussed a zillion times over. Yep. It has.

My school recently had a prominent Christian geneticist speak in a forum: Dr. Francis Collins, the president of the Human Genome Project. His lecture was entitled, "The Language of God: Intellectual Reflections of a Christian Geneticist". You can find his lecture online, if you're interested.

People who attended the event seemed to have some interesting contrasting perspectives: either they loved everything they had to say, said it helped them reconcile the advancements in science concerning evolution, and their understanding of God - or it made them terribly offended and thought this man was blasphemous.

My personal opinion: he's a cool guy. I felt like I'd heard the lecture before, so nothing earth-shattering for me. Definitely a nice way to spend an evening.

Here's where I stand on the whole God vs. Science thing:

I can't deny the existance of a higher being. I acknowledge that it very well might be my own dillusion, but I feel like there's someone looking out for me. I pray. I find happiness when I attend religious services. It usually doesn't matter what religious service I attend, I tend to find God everywhere.

Come May, I'll have a BS in "Genetics & Plant Biology." I am a student of genetics. I also love plants. I find phylogenetics and evolutionary biology fascinating. I love understanding the genetic relationships. I find evolution a wonderful method of describing how our world ticks.

I fail to see the disconnect between science and religion. People tell me it's there. But for the life of me I don't understand it. So I go with what I understand, and live my life.

Where do you stand?

[levite]

I believe in Evolution, natural selection, chaos theory, and all of the elements that go into the scientific descriptions of how we got here from the Big Bang. I also believe in God, and that God is responsible for the Creation of the universe, and that there is such a thing as a Divine Plan.

In part, I can do this because I don't read Genesis literally, which is a perfectly acceptable choice for a Jew. There is an exegetical maxim of very long standing (it's been around long enough that I would wager money Jesus was familiar with it) that in ancient Hebrew is "dibra Torah k'lashon b'nei adam," meaning "The Torah speaks as people speak." What that means, in other words, is that sometimes the language of the Bible is idiomatic or metaphorical, and occasionally, it speaks in parables if that is the best way to convey meaning.

The point of the Genesis accounts of creation are not to give us accurate descriptions of the exact methodology of the creation of the universe. This is because the Bible is not a textbook. The Bible is there to teach us things about relating to God. In this case, the lesson offered is not about physics, biology, or geology, it is this: the God that revealed himself to the Israelites at Sinai is the same God who is solely responsible for the creation of the universe. Precisely how that creation was executed is, to the Biblical agenda, massively unimportant.

It is not clear to me that the entire Torah (Hebrew Scriptures) was in any way "dictated" by God. Prophecy is obscure, and much depends on the capacity of the prophet to comprehend and correctly interpret what God is attempting to show. But even if God did "write" Genesis, what good would it do to give a presentation on cosmological physics, planetary evolution, and natural selection to a group of pastoral desert nomads from 3500 years ago? It would be meaningless to them, completely incomprehensible, and they would fail to learn the lesson that the Genesis accounts accurately provide.

I also believe that the Divine Plan is flexible and subtle. God created the universe, in my personal opinion, to foster the emergence of intelligent life. I don't believe that "intelligent life" is limited to human beings, or is defined in any way by the shape, makeup, or evolutionary heritage of homo sapiens. I believe God speaks to many peoples, both on this planet, and, I am sure, on others. And if evolution had gone differently-- say, if there had been no asteroid collision 65 million years ago-- then something else would have evolved into awareness and intelligence, God would have revealed himself to those creatures, and perhaps this post would be being written by a two-meter tall semi-reptilian/semi-avian Jew descended from a Velociraptor. But I don't believe, from God's point of view, it would make a damn bit of difference.

I believe God wished to create intelligent life with free will in order to have aware, free creatures other than himself to relate to. I find it difficult to accept that it would make much difference what the physical appearance of such creatures would be, or the sequence of their DNA, or, for that matter, what elements their biology is ordered around.

I think God designed the matrix of the universe (physical laws, certain inherent probabilities, the way certain interactions tend to come about or resolve themselves, etc.), created all the proto-matter and proto-energy in the Big Bang ex nihilo, and set into motion the initial event of the Big Bang. The universe then developed according to the rules of evolution, natural selection, chaos and order, and physical laws that God designed.

[Hain]

Personally... I think "God did it" is the too easy answer to it. Where's the journey?

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

I fail to see the disconnect between science and religion.

Science requires tangible evidence. Faith does not. If you search for proof to your faith, you don't have faith, you just want to be right. I am not implying this towards you, however.

@ Levite:
You are the coolest religious guy, ever.

//soapbox

I look at the universe and I see an evolution of action/reaction. First the fundamental laws of the universe come into play setting these ground rules. Then The galaxies form, leading to stars and finally the planets. Some planets, like Earth, have/get the necessary chemicals to form complex molecules which can form all new and more complex reactions, still based off of the ground rules. These molecules grow in complexity till we have stimulus/action occurrences, even more complex and you get fully functioning organisms that can change their actions based on stimulus. Animals gain complexity for a variety of reasons and group order forms, with hierarchies, etc etc. To make this short: today we have "Human." Humans have this remarkably sophisticated stimulus/action/reaction processing system called the brain. Seating within the intricate physics/chemistry of the brain is consciousness.

I look at consciousness as another form of this progression of action/reaction. I believe it (consciousness) was there the entire time. If you take a piece of chalk and twist it will break according to a set of very precise laws. We model them with equations- tools of our conscious mind. Yet the chalk just reacts, there is no thought, yet we must think about how that chalk will break.

I had an experience that shaped me and still is one of the foundations of my philosophy. There isn't any specific being, it isn't loving, it doesn't care, it doesn't judge, it doesn't have to think, it just is. We all are connected within it, we are all connected to each other and everything. All we do to strengthen ourselves to it is to make positive connection with the universe.

What I really enjoy musing is if this consciousness of the universe and ourselves keeps evolving, what lies ahead? Yes I am naive, and I am idealistic, but... if it is a dream it is a good dream to me, one that forces me to look at everything.

[Mantus]

Wow! Great necro post. Brings me back to those days when I cared what happened this day on earth a billion years ago. I see allot of names here that helped me find myself with either great insight or great stupidity. Those were the days

All I can say is that I Got It and I am happy with my answer. I have never made an effort to explain my state of mind. I guess the most basic way to describe it is to say that I have faith in my ability to see the truth in every moment...cryptic I know...

[levite]

Originally Posted by Augi

@ Levite:
You are the coolest religious guy, ever.

Thanks!! That's so nice!

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

Where do you stand?

The reason there is a 'disconnect' between science and god is most people lack faith.

In the not so distant past you could lock science and religion together, one was the ally of the other, with only a few brief defections in astronomy.

Life was the miracle you were not suppose to 'need' to have faith, but none the less it was gods creation, how could you deny there was a god?

Then comes real science, showing the true age of the earth, that our sun was in fact a star (interestingly discovered by a priest I think), and then that life was not only changeable but that humans are a very young species.

The miracle was no longer a miraculous. Faith became true, blind, non-intellectual, gut feeling, faith, and thats just not enough for a lot of people.

Its not so much that science has a disconnect from God, but that science has disconnected the NEED for God. Now you can say 'well what of the big bang' and such but finding the next question science has no answer for doesn't automatically mean it needs to be filled with God.

[Hain]

//Off Topic-
@Ustwo:

I don't know the priest you are thinking of... but there was Giordano Bruno, the 17th-century monk burned at the stake for his opinion that every star in the night sky was a sun, very much like our own, with planets that have life created by God.

-End Off Topic//

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by Augi

//Off Topic-
@Ustwo:

I don't know the priest you are thinking of... but there was Giordano Bruno, the 17th-century monk burned at the stake for his opinion that every star in the night sky was a sun, very much like our own, with planets that have life created by God.

-End Off Topic//

I looked it up, the guy I was thinking of was....

Angelo Secchi, S.J. was born in Reggio, Italy and died in Rome. He was a physicist and mathematician with remarkable ability and passion for astronomy. Angelo worked in stellar spectroscopy, made the first systematic spectroscopic survey of the heavens, pioneered in classifying stars by their four spectral types, studied sunspots, solar prominences, photographed solar corona during the eclipse in 1860, invented the heliospectroscope, star spectroscope, telespectroscope and meteorograph. He also studied double stars, weather forecasting and terrestrial magnetism. He became director of the Vatican Observatory at the age of 32 and dedicated himself energetically to the task. Sabino Maffeo S.J. tells the story of his tenure at the Vatican Observatory. (See Maffeo S.J. Sabino, In the Service of the Popes Translation by George V. Coyne, S.J. Pg. 13-15).

He acquired an equatorial telescope of Merz with an aperture of 24 cm and a focal length of 435 cm, an excellent instrument for those times. Angelo decided to transfer the observatory to the top of the Church of St. Ignatius, a perfect foundation for an observatory, because the Church had been originally designed to support a dome 80 meters high and 17 meters wide. This Pontifical Observatory, famous for the discoveries of Father Secchi, was certainly more known to many generations of Romans for the simple, practical, daily service it offered them. It gave them the exact time of day.

[supersix2]

I've been recently thinking about all this after I watched a few episodes of "The Universe" on the History Channel and a show about the Hubble Telescope.

The stuff in these shows seriously blew my mind. One thing that really hit me was a picture that Hubble took of a patch of sky no bigger than a pin-point when viewed from earth and it had thousands of galaxies in just that small area of the sky. They explained how they can trace the trajectories of those galaxies all the way back to the Big Bang singularity.

So it got me thinking about how and why the Universe was created. How and why our planet was created and how and why are we here.

I just can't buy that the universe was randomly created in a massive explosion from a single point of infinite mass. I do agree wit the Big Bang theory because of the evidence that points to it but what I'm hung up on is why it happened and what was before it happened. What was around the singularity before the Universe was created? Was there some other form of existence before the Universe as we know it was made? These questions really bother me.

I simply cannot believe that our entire existence was a random chance.

That being said, I'm not a really religious person probably because I was forced to go to sunday school and church and it was more of a "chore" rather than something I genuinely wanted to do. That and my parents would be "conveniently religious" around Easter and Christmas and such but would not go to church regularly. Anyway I never really saw the point in it all.


I'm pretty sure I believe in God. I say that because I cannot make up my mind given my experience with religion and my knowledge of science. Recently I've been thinking about giving religion another shot mainly because of how these shows got me thinking.

I'm just so torn on it, if God created the universe and Earth and us did anything created God? How could a being simply exist in some realm outside of ours? But at the same time I just can't believe that everything we know exists purely by chance.

I don't think any form of religion or scientific theories can help me with this. It makes me feel so insignificant compared to everything else in the Universe. I mean think about it, all those thousands of galaxies in that one small part of the sky have billions of stars and planets. You're telling me that we are alone in the Universe and we are just here by chance meant to scrape out a living in a vast nothing?

I don't know this is all very troubling to me. I need answers damnit.

[n0nsensical]

Moved my post here.

[Nisses]

Great story for this discussion imho:
The Last Question - I. Asimov



A lot of the questions and arguments of non-believers of evolution center around details or incorrect comprehension of evolution.

The fact that it's a theory and "only a theory" for instance (it's a theory, founded on facts & evidence and therefore the best explanation we have for it at present, whereas creationism itself explains nothing)
Or the fact that it can't explain the beginning of life (it was never meant to do that, it's outside of the scope of that theory - hence why the very title of this thread is flawed)

Or like the OP so many moons ago that can't understand why there are still monkeys, since there's no "need" for monkeys anymore. (that particular primate *left* his former habitat, and changed as a result of it. The ones that are monkeys didn't).


That said, I will only accept evolution (not believe in) as long as the current frameset holds true. If sufficient evidence is provided why it isn't be true, then it's out with the old and in with the new.




@Augi: I just read about Omega Point this week. It seems like a cool concept/idea of what *could* lie ahead. Or maybe I just like the possibility of it
For some more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Point

[Hain]

Hmm, that is an interesting theory. Very must reminiscent of what I believe in. However, I would argue that our specific rationalizations of self consciousness are not unique and not entirely right. Would you believe that if there were conscious beings elsewhere they perceive themselves in a manner similar to our way?

This Omega Point theory is remarkable though. It is very similar to the Mayan perception of the universal consciousness.

[roachboy]

personally, i find creation stories to be interesting piece of fiction.

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by roachboy

personally, i find creation stories to be interesting piece of fiction.

My personal favourites are the First Nations creation myths. Strong animal imagery and anthropomorphism. Quite beautiful, actually.

[roachboy]

i like them too.
there are lots of them.
the dogon creation story--i think it's written down in one of marcel griaule's books (why o why do i remember this stuff?)
hesiod
william blake's versions
hegel's logic
big bang theory

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by roachboy

i like them too.
there are lots of them.
the dogon creation story--i think it's written down in one of marcel griaule's books (why o why do i remember this stuff?)
hesiod
william blake's versions
hegel's logic
big bang theory

Lets not be lumping in the scientific method with poets and philosophers.

Its cute to do so to make a 'shocking' point, but intellectually distinct from any other creation 'story'. While the big bang theory is obviously incomplete, and may well be totally wrong, it is based on observable data, from background radiation, to the apparent movement of the galaxies.

Unlike the others you listed, its not even an attempted answer, its a possible explanation for what is observed.

[Willravel]

When someone calls something scientific "blasphemous", it's usually progress.

[MSD]

Hey guys and gals, new thread!
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=132486