THUMPING RELIGION - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

02-07-2004, 09:12 PM

A card I received on my car window as I came back to it from the store:

FRONT:
"The wages of sin is DEATH-
The gift of God is eternal. Romans 6:23"

BACK:
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16............(The gospel in a nutshell)"

Possibly they chose my car out of the others who I did not see one on, because I have a bumper sticker that says
"God is too big to fit inside one religion."

What are your views on what the card said
and what are your views on "thumping" (promoting & preaching) yur religion to others?

I laughed a little, but respecting what they believe in their hearts.
But as one who is not religious, yet respecting all beliefs, could not see God as being full of judgement, sending me to death if I sin. I know that life is eternal for everyone.

I do not care for religion-thumpers, but take their views into mind.

The card had no markings of the church or religious party, so my question is what is their intention with this card? IF that card were supposed to scare me, how would I know where to go? They are not promoting their church, but their beliefs, which is fine. So, basically, it seems as though it is a way to scare people and hopefully get them to go to A church and get "saved". I respect that, but I don't see the need to scare or worry others as a healthy tactic to help them.

wilbjammin · 02-07-2004, 11:36 PM

I don't handle it very well. When I start talking about Nietzsche and nihilism and decadence and how "God is dead" and then the existentialists and how existence is absurd I end up saying things in a way that are somehow threatening. I don't feel too exceptionally bad about it though, they're invading my space and not being very respectful of my views.

Now I just try to politely say "no, thanks" and have them move away as quickly as possible. I get nothing out of discussions with people who treat me as if I'm stuck in the firey depths of hell.

I got a card that sounds just like what you received and it didn't have an overt church or religious party name on it... but I found an address in small print and researched it. There are interesting corporate televangelist ties to some of these groups.

ChrisJericho · 02-07-2004, 11:48 PM

Well that's pretty much the whole point of hell, to scare people into behaving in a way that benefits their religious party.

Since I go to UW in Seattle, the closest thing I have to people thumping religion are those handing out religious pamphlets. I say no thanks, just like I do to all the other pamphlet distributers. Conversing with people like this is useless since they usually have been brainwashed from an early age to be intolerant of others' beliefs.

Lebell · 02-08-2004, 01:03 AM

Well, to answer question number one, there isn't anything there I don't agree with.

To answer question number two, I think the best way to evangelize is to live the Gospel, which of course, is the point of it.

(Now, please don't read more into what I said than what I actually said.)

tecoyah · 02-08-2004, 04:35 AM

HHmmm......sounds like a vieled death threat, I would report this to the Feds as soon as possible. Considering the source, which is an organization known to commit murder(abortion doctors and such), I would be fearful for my life.
Obviously the above is meant satirically. Most of this paper preaching is simply an anoyance to me, and only lasts as long as it takes me to throw the offending material in the trash. Misguided as these people are, they are far from the worst and should be allowed to waste whatever resources they require to "save us all" from blistering damnation.
If this Heaven place is indeed populated by such arrogant, closed minded souls, you can have my seat.

prosequence · 02-08-2004, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by :::OshnSoul:::
...I have a bumper sticker that says
"God is too big to fit inside one religion."

Just a little side question.... what is your intent with such a bumper sticker?

Giltwist · 02-08-2004, 02:34 PM

I must admit that Christians, on a whole, thump a lot, even without meaning to do so. For example, my radio show cohost, has a tendency to start his arguments, "Now I'm a Christian," as if it makes a difference. Sure, sometimes it is useful info to have, however, he often says it when its totally unrealated to religion. I think that it is habits like these that get Christians in trouble a lot.

The other big problem is that, on the whole, we are far too...aggressive with our prosetylizing. While, when going out into religiously repressed nations, perhaps there is some good to come from it, but in first world nations, we treat thumping is just another form of spam. In my opinion, if a person is really ready to seek a deity, or spirituality in general, they will ask.

I try to present myself as a spiritual person, but I endevour not to bring it up unless I am asked. It makes people feel more comfortable around me. And, let's be honest, a comfortable atmosphere is definately a step in the right direction for talking about such deep matters. It's this same attitude which brings people to my shoulder to cry or to my ear to whisper secrets.

Telling someone your core beliefs can be very scary. If you want someone to be receptive to your ideas, listen to theirs.

02-08-2004, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by prosequence
Just a little side question.... what is your intent with such a bumper sticker?

No intention, really, for that sticker. I've always enjoyed expressing myself, and that is a view of mine- God IS too big to fit inside one religion. I fell in love with that sticker when i found it.

It means: Respecting all paths as a means to God, yet not limiting myself to just one.

02-08-2004, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tecoyah
HHmmm......sounds like a vieled death threat, I would report this to the Feds as soon as possible. Considering the source, which is an organization known to commit murder(abortion doctors and such), I would be fearful for my life.

lol, I never read into something like that. They live in fear, but why should I? I just like pondering the intention and reason to these types of things. Of course I can sit and think of all the things it could mean, but I only would become aware of whatever outcome, not worrisome or fearful. Driving a car on the freeway (or Meridian for that matter) is as much of a dead threat as one of those cards.

KnifeMissile · 02-08-2004, 08:50 PM

I don't understand why but I get really upset whenever people try to convert me. I've had someone on the streets with some pamphlet trying to talk to be before I told him to, literally, "fuck off." That's how much it offends me but I can't tell you why. In retrospect, I wish I didn't fly off the handle so. He didn't really deserve it.

But there's no denying that there's something about the practice that totally offends me. I understand that this is merely for the survival of their religion. If the religion didn't work so hard to procreate (convert others) and defend itself (you'll go to hell if you don't!) then, like evolution, the religion wouldn't still be around to bother us with it's attempts to procreate and defend itself...

KWSN · 02-08-2004, 08:52 PM

Yes. People who try to convert me annoy me... not because of their beliefs but because i believe that it is a waste of time on both parts. Someone who does not want to convert isn't going to. It just bothers me. I'm fine with their beliefs, though when brought up in a conversation, i will contest them. I am not fine with them forcing them on me and wasting my precious time.

Lebell · 02-08-2004, 11:30 PM

Just a note:

Those who are trying to "convert" you aren't doing it because they want their religion to survive; they're doing it because they sincerely want to save you from going to Hell.

This is what they believe, right or wrong in God's eyes.

So you might at least give them credit that they are trying help you, even if you think it's misguided.

KnifeMissile · 02-09-2004, 01:18 AM

Yes, I realize that they are ignorant of their religion's defense mechanisms and that they are honestly trying to help me but, like those who try to cure my illnesses by bleeding me to death (true story!), do their good intentions absolve them from my anger?
A total exaggeration, of course, but a good analogy, nonetheless...

Fire · 02-09-2004, 03:27 AM

just went to sell knives at my first pagan event- in a small town- The local christian college staged a protest , stating that they were appalled that pagans should be allowed to hold a gathering in their town- and they showed up to hand out tracts, which soon became something of a game, as the pagans tried to "collect em all" I actualy heard someone say "you got the curse of baphomet, where'd you find that one, all I got is a bunch of the ones with Kali in em" now me, I am a devout agnostic, and foremost in situations like these a capitalist, but it was interesting to watch from a sort of detached point of view, admittedly, I have many pagan friends, and few devout christian friends,- but in a way both sides seemed the same to me, each convinced the other was wrong, the pagans just as sure and inflexible as the christians- and in this, as simmilar as they were different.- don't know if I can convey the feeling that was there, but it struck me as almost erie, both sides were completely sure they were so different, and as such looked, at least from (kinda) the outside, frighteningly the same.....

tecoyah · 02-09-2004, 05:52 AM

Guess the real difference there would be , no pagan would ever go to the trouble to protest a christian gathering....mostly because we dont work that way.
You will rarely hear a pagan spout beliefs unless asked....but then you may be in for an earful.....still not a condescending one.

Bill O'Rights · 02-09-2004, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fire
I have many pagan friends, and few devout christian friends,- but in a way both sides seemed the same to me, each convinced the other was wrong, the pagans just as sure and inflexible as the christians- and in this, as simmilar as they were different.-

From my point of view, it seems that to me that, more often than not, it is the Christians that instigate these "shoving contests" with the Pagans.

The Pagans just want to be left alone, to do their own thing, then along comes some well meaning, albeit anoying, Christian group to stir up trouble. Whatever became of "Turn the other cheek"?

Lebell · 02-09-2004, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill O'Rights
From my point of view, it seems that to me that, more often than not, it is the Christians that instigate these "shoving contests" with the Pagans.

Oh, I don't know about that.

My own experience (about 5 years working a Ren Fest) is that the numerically dominant group, be it religion or whatever, tends to want conformity from the minority.

This I think is a human psychology trait, not a "Chrisitanity" trait.

*edited to say,

In case I was too crytic, pagans/druids/etc outnumber everyone else at a renfest by about 5 to 1.

02-09-2004, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
Just a note:

Those who are trying to "convert" you aren't doing it because they want their religion to survive; they're doing it because they sincerely want to save you from going to Hell.

This is what they believe, right or wrong in God's eyes.

So you might at least give them credit that they are trying help you, even if you think it's misguided.

Very well said.

Arsenic7 · 02-09-2004, 07:09 PM

Just don't thump back, it wouldn't look good on my part if the Jehovas Witnesses left with bumps on their head evertime they came to my door.

Also...I know they have good intentions but I doubt they'd feel the same way if someone attempted to convert them. I generally treat "missionaries" with the respect I give everyone else though.

irateplatypus · 02-09-2004, 10:51 PM

having been raised in the church, i'm often baffled by the difference of perception of those who grew up in different circumstances.

I can tell you I've never met anyone in the church who, while spreading the gospel, carried the sort of malice some assign to them.

sure, go ahead and be frustrated by the inconvenience and embarrassment the proselytizers bring. i'd probably feel the same. still, give them courtesy and the benefit of assumed good intention.

personally, i am unsure of the merits of "thumping". Like many on this board, i know that the chances of me changing my theology (or the creation of one) as a result of an encounter with a somewhat pushy stranger are slim. it appears to me that the method of communication involved is always outclassed by the message itself.

Edit: sorry about the confusion, a portion of the last paragraph was unintentionally left in the first (I move stuff around a lot when I post). i can see where the reader would have been mixed up.

KnifeMissile · 02-10-2004, 12:48 AM

I think you got it backwards, irateplatypus. Bible thumpers are the religious people thumping non-believers with the bible!

Lebell · 02-10-2004, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KnifeMissle
I think you got it backwards, irateplatypus. Bible thumpers are the religious people thumping non-believers with the bible!

If you believe it's a one way street, you haven't been on the TFP Philosophy board long enough

Fire · 02-10-2004, 03:13 AM

yeah- have to agree with lebell on the human traits thing- and also got me thinking about the old saying " there is no zealot like a convert"- and every pagan but one that I know is a convert.....
I also agree heartily with tecoya on the earfull- most pagans don't seem to go out of the way, but with some, get em talking and be prepared for the complete history of their religion and then some- not that that is so bad, I guess that it is just me being exposed to what seems to me to be a "more things change, the more they stay the same" kinda situation- not being particularly religious myself, I would guess that I have seen "thumpers" from every religion I have encountered- except for muslims and jews- havent ever seen them prosteletize - though I have seen pagan, christian, buddist, hindu, and several that i could not readily classify. I feel that thumping is only bad when it becomes intrusive or pushy- for example- a basket of christian, pagan, hindu or wahtever tracts just sitting on a table is totaly cool with me, a guy on a corner offering them to me slightly less so, someone actively comming up to me and thrusting them at me or putting them on my car enters the realm of the uncool- and door to door is realy not the way to gain my sympathy-

Spektr · 02-10-2004, 10:21 AM

One of the most important aspects of Judaism is that we do not prostelytize to anyone. Our religion is not one that needs to seek out members. Anyone choosing to become Jewish can do so, but only on their own accord

Charlatan · 02-11-2004, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spektr
One of the most important aspects of Judaism is that we do not prostelytize to anyone. Our religion is not one that needs to seek out members. Anyone choosing to become Jewish can do so, but only on their own accord

I've know this about the Jewish religion but hadn't thought of it in the context of Christian prosthleytizing.

Wouldn't it be a different world if all religions took this approach?

Think how different our world history would be...

Sure we'd have crusades and missionaries but the would be seen for what they are... wars of conquest and colonization (and this is just the tip of the iceberg).

02-11-2004, 02:14 PM

^^^^^ I attended the same church for a long time, but always felt that something wasn't right. I quit attending, then started going again when i was really lost and a loved one was suffering from depression and I had no idea what else to do- yet it still didn't feel right. The church had multiplied in population and come to find out, now you have to go through a long period of member classes to become an official member before being a part of any group- choir, drama, ushering, etc. I really felt then that it was getting out of hand.
This church thrives on expensive, classy fashion, as well as interior/exterior design of the place, promoting itself like crazy, and a lot of materialization & lack of acceptance is flooding the church, losing its true purpose. They turn down or ignore people that don't look like them, and all I hear about is gossip and judgements. Now this chuch is also overpopulated, having to have 3 sermons every sunday, they have a shuttle in the huge parking lot, and now have also built a seperate building called Champion Centre, and have basically changed their previous name- Covenant Celebration Church. First of all, I find the new name taking away the purpose and meaning.
The new place has a frickin huge cafe and bokstore- almost like a Barnes & Noble, serving Starbucks coffee.
It's all about popularity & profit, now.

Now, for me, if I were to attend a church, I would want to immediately sense and feel the purpose of church and its beleifs & meaning, with an intimite environment putting aside judgement and bringing a friendly, warm, sincere vibe. I could care less if I go to a high School auditorium for a sermon with only about 100 people there and a pastor who greets you as you come and leave and never preaches the same thing over and over, and also preaches without sounding "preachy"- where they encourage sharing experiences & stories, ideas, and an open mind. Just simply reading out of the bible and going off in a wild tangent about what he read and telling us what we need to do is something that does not work for me.
I know this may seem like it's going off-topic, but my point goes for the church itself on how "preachy" and prosthleytizing it can get to be.

02-11-2004, 08:34 PM

The only problem I have is when people attempt to 'convert' you to their views. I have no trouble discussing things, as I keep an open mind to others' views. It's when people blatantly tell me I'm wrong for my beliefs and proceed to list off the reasons why that I get annoyed...

Arsenic7 · 02-11-2004, 09:37 PM

Hmm...thinking a little more on the subject...my only real problem comes when empathy is forgotten and the "thumpers" refuse to see things as I do.

I remember I went to a debate titled "why I believe in god and why I do not" between a minister and a college philosophy professor here at OSU. It was interesting how few of the christians in the audience refused to believe that the professors views (he was an agnostic I'm pretty sure) could possibly make any logical sence.

Charlatan · 02-12-2004, 07:53 AM

:::OshnSoul:::

I find your experience in church facinating... I attend chuch once a year. Though I don't believe in God I do so to honour my wife's relatives.

The chuch is rural and quite tiny. They only hold service there in the summer as they don't have heat and only just recently got electricty.

I go on the weekend of our annual family reunion. It coincides with the cemetary service (this is a once a year event where after the service the congregation walks the small cemetary out back and says prayers and sings hymns in memory of their ancestors and recently departed that are buried there).

While I hold no truck with the belief in God, I do see the power of people and community. I listen to the sermon and usually take something away that I can think about.

What you describe is completely foreign to any experience I've ever had with the Church.

...interestingly (to bring it back to the topic), while I have had a few discussions with some of my wife's family that are members of the congregation (uncle is actually the misister and cousins are wardens of the chuch), not a one has tried to overtly convert me.

thingstodo · 02-16-2004, 03:49 AM

I think your bumper sticker says it all. Keep it on your car and toss the card. It's kind of obvious which one will last longer.

By the way, where did you get that sticker. I love it and would buy a box full if I knew where to get them!!

MSD · 02-16-2004, 01:48 PM

To addres the original question: Preach to those who want to listen. You're unlikely to change the opinions of those who don't, and more likely to turn them against you when they were indifferent to begin with.

02-17-2004, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thingstodo
I think your bumper sticker says it all. Keep it on your car and toss the card. It's kind of obvious which one will last longer.

By the way, where did you get that sticker. I love it and would buy a box full if I knew where to get them!!

awesome site:

www.evolvefish.com

Be0wulf · 02-17-2004, 10:19 PM

I'm a big fan of Buddhism.
You hardly ever have Buddhists come to your door and ask if you've accepted the teachings of Aviloketeshvara Boddhisattva into your heart.

...er...at least not in my neighbourhood anyway.

thespian86 · 03-01-2004, 01:43 PM

Thats very funny, Just recently I had a long conversation with a close friend about promoting my religion, which is CHRISTIANITY... (hahaha get it?) But for, what must be, the first time he was right. I try to be as open minded and i'll always be the one who trys to bend to fit others needs... so why be a jerk about this? it's not anyones right to say there beliefs are better, i think the term "Footwashing Baptist" was used in the book "To kill a mocking bird". It's not my right to tell anyone that they are wrong because religion is oppinion not fact. I belive that Jesus Christ lived and that he died to save me from my sins just like a person of another religion believes thier beliefs. Leave it alone and enjoy your freedom to live your life and believe what you want.

Xenomorph · 03-04-2004, 06:16 PM

I find the Jewish position quite interesting. Rabbis are required to slam the door in your face three times before they will start you on the path to Judaism.

I basically speak when spoken to. My friends come from a wide variety of religious backgrounds...two practicing Catholics (I am one), one nonpracticing Catholic, a former Jehova's Witness (now agnostic), an agnostic, a deist, a Muslim, and a now-nondenominational Christian who was once a Southern Baptist. Friendly religious debate pops up between us about every 2 seconds, so that's where I usually get up and 'thump'. Discussions among the Christians are entirely different than, say, discussions between a Christian, a Muslim, and an agnostic. Every one of is capable of articulating intelligent thought and most are fairly conscious in there (non)belief systems, so I find the discussions fun and enlightening.

Thagrastay · 03-18-2004, 08:50 AM

I consider myself a Messianist. I follow my Messiah, who is Yeshua, or Jesus of the Bible. I take the Bible literally where appropriately and understand that in those placees where it is stated as such, it is menat to be taken as metaphor or parable.
I was raised as a Methodist, which meant my family got all dressed up each sunday morning and we went to church and we had a marathon to see who could stay awake the longest as the pastor in his long robes droned on and on about things I had little to know interest in and I didn't see my parents do a whole lot about.
I always had known about God, but not in any real, cvoncrete sense, just that there was one and that He was around. By the time I was a teenager I had pretty much given up on church and stumbled upon the Boddhisattvas and was studying the Vedas and becoming a Hindu convert. However, much of the disciplines (I hadn't discovered Tantra yet) discouraged my friends and I missed out on a lot of parties, so I gave up on the studies for a while. But not completely. BY the time I entered University I had met a young lady who introduced me to the beauties of the Craft, and the similarities between hinduism and paganism was a very easy transition and soon I was a pagan and on my way to becoming a hedon as well.
Much of this time I had a lot of people evangelizing me, not the least of which were family members, but I had no time for that and thought that their attempts were silly and more than a bit backward.
I remained a Pagan for a very long time, and did much study in Virginia and at the Caycee center and in New Mexico and other places as well. Along the way, I founf the Tao, pardon the pun. and that helped things as well, but there was a hole somewhere needed filling.
Eventually, I met a man who challenged me intellectually to reconsider the Bible from a purely intellectual standpoint. He suggested that Christianity was a Thinking person's faith, and if the dogma and doctrine were removed, what was left was a picture that could not be denied.
I was intrigued.
I decided to approach the Bible from the same perspective as I had the Koran and the Tao and the Gitas and research it. He leant me a book called "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh MacDowell as a companion to the Bible he had given me, and I began my research.
It changed my worldview and my life.

In answer to the original question, I believe people place these fliers on cars because they want to get your attention, but they are not certain how to follow through and they are hoping that if you know about God, you probably already have heard about Jesus and will somehow know where to go to find out more.

I am very sorry about the bad experiences you had with the giant church you attended. I have had similar experiences as well. Unfortunately, the term Christain has come to mean just about anything anyone wants it to, rather than someone dedicated to Jesus, so I call myself a Messianist- one dedeicated to the Messiah. I know, whoop-de-do. But it clarifies things in my own mind. I fellowship in smaller churches and mentor those whom I am able on the streets. I love volunteer work, because that ius where the Lord lived and so I spend a loit of time doing that as well. On ocassion I will hand out fliers, but not the kind condemning people to hell. That does no good.
Either they will come to Messiah or they won't. I don';t know which are which, so I just treat them all like they are. Patience, tolerance, Love. But the Christian duty is at least to inform.

Bill O'Rights · 03-18-2004, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by :::OshnSoul:::
awesome site:

www.evolvefish.com

Yeah, I've got this on the back of my truck.

Lebell · 03-18-2004, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill O'Rights
Yeah, I've got this on the back of my truck.

I've always intented to get one of those along with the fish and put them together.

I figure that would really confuse people...

03-18-2004, 02:53 PM

^^^^^ Here ya go, just do this:

Lebell · 03-18-2004, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by :::OshnSoul:::
^^^^^ Here ya go, just do this:

Ok, now THAT I like

02-07-2004, 09:12 PM	#1 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	THUMPING RELIGION A card I received on my car window as I came back to it from the store: FRONT: "The wages of sin is DEATH- The gift of God is eternal. Romans 6:23" BACK: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16............(The gospel in a nutshell)" Possibly they chose my car out of the others who I did not see one on, because I have a bumper sticker that says "God is too big to fit inside one religion." What are your views on what the card said and what are your views on "thumping" (promoting & preaching) yur religion to others? I laughed a little, but respecting what they believe in their hearts. But as one who is not religious, yet respecting all beliefs, could not see God as being full of judgement, sending me to death if I sin. I know that life is eternal for everyone. I do not care for religion-thumpers, but take their views into mind. The card had no markings of the church or religious party, so my question is what is their intention with this card? IF that card were supposed to scare me, how would I know where to go? They are not promoting their church, but their beliefs, which is fine. So, basically, it seems as though it is a way to scare people and hopefully get them to go to A church and get "saved". I respect that, but I don't see the need to scare or worry others as a healthy tactic to help them.

02-07-2004, 11:36 PM	#2 (permalink)
wilbjammin * * *	I don't handle it very well. When I start talking about Nietzsche and nihilism and decadence and how "God is dead" and then the existentialists and how existence is absurd I end up saying things in a way that are somehow threatening. I don't feel too exceptionally bad about it though, they're invading my space and not being very respectful of my views. Now I just try to politely say "no, thanks" and have them move away as quickly as possible. I get nothing out of discussions with people who treat me as if I'm stuck in the firey depths of hell. I got a card that sounds just like what you received and it didn't have an overt church or religious party name on it... but I found an address in small print and researched it. There are interesting corporate televangelist ties to some of these groups. __________________ Innominate.

02-07-2004, 11:48 PM	#3 (permalink)
ChrisJericho eat more fruit Location: Seattle	Well that's pretty much the whole point of hell, to scare people into behaving in a way that benefits their religious party. Since I go to UW in Seattle, the closest thing I have to people thumping religion are those handing out religious pamphlets. I say no thanks, just like I do to all the other pamphlet distributers. Conversing with people like this is useless since they usually have been brainwashed from an early age to be intolerant of others' beliefs. __________________ "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

02-08-2004, 01:03 AM	#4 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Well, to answer question number one, there isn't anything there I don't agree with. To answer question number two, I think the best way to evangelize is to live the Gospel, which of course, is the point of it. (Now, please don't read more into what I said than what I actually said.) __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

02-08-2004, 04:35 AM	#5 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	HHmmm......sounds like a vieled death threat, I would report this to the Feds as soon as possible. Considering the source, which is an organization known to commit murder(abortion doctors and such), I would be fearful for my life. Obviously the above is meant satirically. Most of this paper preaching is simply an anoyance to me, and only lasts as long as it takes me to throw the offending material in the trash. Misguided as these people are, they are far from the worst and should be allowed to waste whatever resources they require to "save us all" from blistering damnation. If this Heaven place is indeed populated by such arrogant, closed minded souls, you can have my seat. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

02-08-2004, 02:34 PM	#7 (permalink)
Giltwist Insane Location: Pennsylvania	I must admit that Christians, on a whole, thump a lot, even without meaning to do so. For example, my radio show cohost, has a tendency to start his arguments, "Now I'm a Christian," as if it makes a difference. Sure, sometimes it is useful info to have, however, he often says it when its totally unrealated to religion. I think that it is habits like these that get Christians in trouble a lot. The other big problem is that, on the whole, we are far too...aggressive with our prosetylizing. While, when going out into religiously repressed nations, perhaps there is some good to come from it, but in first world nations, we treat thumping is just another form of spam. In my opinion, if a person is really ready to seek a deity, or spirituality in general, they will ask. I try to present myself as a spiritual person, but I endevour not to bring it up unless I am asked. It makes people feel more comfortable around me. And, let's be honest, a comfortable atmosphere is definately a step in the right direction for talking about such deep matters. It's this same attitude which brings people to my shoulder to cry or to my ear to whisper secrets. Telling someone your core beliefs can be very scary. If you want someone to be receptive to your ideas, listen to theirs.

02-08-2004, 08:50 PM	#10 (permalink)
KnifeMissile Location: Waterloo, Ontario	I don't understand why but I get really upset whenever people try to convert me. I've had someone on the streets with some pamphlet trying to talk to be before I told him to, literally, "fuck off." That's how much it offends me but I can't tell you why. In retrospect, I wish I didn't fly off the handle so. He didn't really deserve it. But there's no denying that there's something about the practice that totally offends me. I understand that this is merely for the survival of their religion. If the religion didn't work so hard to procreate (convert others) and defend itself (you'll go to hell if you don't!) then, like evolution, the religion wouldn't still be around to bother us with it's attempts to procreate and defend itself...

02-08-2004, 08:52 PM	#11 (permalink)
KWSN green	Yes. People who try to convert me annoy me... not because of their beliefs but because i believe that it is a waste of time on both parts. Someone who does not want to convert isn't going to. It just bothers me. I'm fine with their beliefs, though when brought up in a conversation, i will contest them. I am not fine with them forcing them on me and wasting my precious time. __________________ Your arms are broken!

02-08-2004, 11:30 PM	#12 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Just a note: Those who are trying to "convert" you aren't doing it because they want their religion to survive; they're doing it because they sincerely want to save you from going to Hell. This is what they believe, right or wrong in God's eyes. So you might at least give them credit that they are trying help you, even if you think it's misguided. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

02-09-2004, 01:18 AM	#13 (permalink)
KnifeMissile Location: Waterloo, Ontario	Yes, I realize that they are ignorant of their religion's defense mechanisms and that they are honestly trying to help me but, like those who try to cure my illnesses by bleeding me to death (true story!), do their good intentions absolve them from my anger? A total exaggeration, of course, but a good analogy, nonetheless...

02-09-2004, 03:27 AM	#14 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	just went to sell knives at my first pagan event- in a small town- The local christian college staged a protest , stating that they were appalled that pagans should be allowed to hold a gathering in their town- and they showed up to hand out tracts, which soon became something of a game, as the pagans tried to "collect em all" I actualy heard someone say "you got the curse of baphomet, where'd you find that one, all I got is a bunch of the ones with Kali in em" now me, I am a devout agnostic, and foremost in situations like these a capitalist, but it was interesting to watch from a sort of detached point of view, admittedly, I have many pagan friends, and few devout christian friends,- but in a way both sides seemed the same to me, each convinced the other was wrong, the pagans just as sure and inflexible as the christians- and in this, as simmilar as they were different.- don't know if I can convey the feeling that was there, but it struck me as almost erie, both sides were completely sure they were so different, and as such looked, at least from (kinda) the outside, frighteningly the same..... __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

02-09-2004, 05:52 AM	#15 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Guess the real difference there would be , no pagan would ever go to the trouble to protest a christian gathering....mostly because we dont work that way. You will rarely hear a pagan spout beliefs unless asked....but then you may be in for an earful.....still not a condescending one. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

02-09-2004, 07:09 PM	#19 (permalink)
Arsenic7 Insane Location: Corvallis, OR.	Just don't thump back, it wouldn't look good on my part if the Jehovas Witnesses left with bumps on their head evertime they came to my door. Also...I know they have good intentions but I doubt they'd feel the same way if someone attempted to convert them. I generally treat "missionaries" with the respect I give everyone else though. __________________ This is no sig.

02-09-2004, 10:51 PM	#20 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	having been raised in the church, i'm often baffled by the difference of perception of those who grew up in different circumstances. I can tell you I've never met anyone in the church who, while spreading the gospel, carried the sort of malice some assign to them. sure, go ahead and be frustrated by the inconvenience and embarrassment the proselytizers bring. i'd probably feel the same. still, give them courtesy and the benefit of assumed good intention. personally, i am unsure of the merits of "thumping". Like many on this board, i know that the chances of me changing my theology (or the creation of one) as a result of an encounter with a somewhat pushy stranger are slim. it appears to me that the method of communication involved is always outclassed by the message itself. Edit: sorry about the confusion, a portion of the last paragraph was unintentionally left in the first (I move stuff around a lot when I post). i can see where the reader would have been mixed up. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill Last edited by irateplatypus; 02-10-2004 at 05:32 PM..

02-10-2004, 12:48 AM	#21 (permalink)
KnifeMissile Location: Waterloo, Ontario	I think you got it backwards, irateplatypus. Bible thumpers are the religious people thumping non-believers with the bible!

02-10-2004, 03:13 AM	#23 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	yeah- have to agree with lebell on the human traits thing- and also got me thinking about the old saying " there is no zealot like a convert"- and every pagan but one that I know is a convert..... I also agree heartily with tecoya on the earfull- most pagans don't seem to go out of the way, but with some, get em talking and be prepared for the complete history of their religion and then some- not that that is so bad, I guess that it is just me being exposed to what seems to me to be a "more things change, the more they stay the same" kinda situation- not being particularly religious myself, I would guess that I have seen "thumpers" from every religion I have encountered- except for muslims and jews- havent ever seen them prosteletize - though I have seen pagan, christian, buddist, hindu, and several that i could not readily classify. I feel that thumping is only bad when it becomes intrusive or pushy- for example- a basket of christian, pagan, hindu or wahtever tracts just sitting on a table is totaly cool with me, a guy on a corner offering them to me slightly less so, someone actively comming up to me and thrusting them at me or putting them on my car enters the realm of the uncool- and door to door is realy not the way to gain my sympathy- __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

02-10-2004, 10:21 AM	#24 (permalink)
Spektr Copacetic Location: Nati	One of the most important aspects of Judaism is that we do not prostelytize to anyone. Our religion is not one that needs to seek out members. Anyone choosing to become Jewish can do so, but only on their own accord

02-11-2004, 02:14 PM	#26 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	^^^^^ I attended the same church for a long time, but always felt that something wasn't right. I quit attending, then started going again when i was really lost and a loved one was suffering from depression and I had no idea what else to do- yet it still didn't feel right. The church had multiplied in population and come to find out, now you have to go through a long period of member classes to become an official member before being a part of any group- choir, drama, ushering, etc. I really felt then that it was getting out of hand. This church thrives on expensive, classy fashion, as well as interior/exterior design of the place, promoting itself like crazy, and a lot of materialization & lack of acceptance is flooding the church, losing its true purpose. They turn down or ignore people that don't look like them, and all I hear about is gossip and judgements. Now this chuch is also overpopulated, having to have 3 sermons every sunday, they have a shuttle in the huge parking lot, and now have also built a seperate building called Champion Centre, and have basically changed their previous name- Covenant Celebration Church. First of all, I find the new name taking away the purpose and meaning. The new place has a frickin huge cafe and bokstore- almost like a Barnes & Noble, serving Starbucks coffee. It's all about popularity & profit, now. Now, for me, if I were to attend a church, I would want to immediately sense and feel the purpose of church and its beleifs & meaning, with an intimite environment putting aside judgement and bringing a friendly, warm, sincere vibe. I could care less if I go to a high School auditorium for a sermon with only about 100 people there and a pastor who greets you as you come and leave and never preaches the same thing over and over, and also preaches without sounding "preachy"- where they encourage sharing experiences & stories, ideas, and an open mind. Just simply reading out of the bible and going off in a wild tangent about what he read and telling us what we need to do is something that does not work for me. I know this may seem like it's going off-topic, but my point goes for the church itself on how "preachy" and prosthleytizing it can get to be.

02-11-2004, 08:34 PM	#27 (permalink)
Untitled Guest	The only problem I have is when people attempt to 'convert' you to their views. I have no trouble discussing things, as I keep an open mind to others' views. It's when people blatantly tell me I'm wrong for my beliefs and proceed to list off the reasons why that I get annoyed...

02-11-2004, 09:37 PM	#28 (permalink)
Arsenic7 Insane Location: Corvallis, OR.	Hmm...thinking a little more on the subject...my only real problem comes when empathy is forgotten and the "thumpers" refuse to see things as I do. I remember I went to a debate titled "why I believe in god and why I do not" between a minister and a college philosophy professor here at OSU. It was interesting how few of the christians in the audience refused to believe that the professors views (he was an agnostic I'm pretty sure) could possibly make any logical sence. __________________ This is no sig.

02-12-2004, 07:53 AM	#29 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	:::OshnSoul::: I find your experience in church facinating... I attend chuch once a year. Though I don't believe in God I do so to honour my wife's relatives. The chuch is rural and quite tiny. They only hold service there in the summer as they don't have heat and only just recently got electricty. I go on the weekend of our annual family reunion. It coincides with the cemetary service (this is a once a year event where after the service the congregation walks the small cemetary out back and says prayers and sings hymns in memory of their ancestors and recently departed that are buried there). While I hold no truck with the belief in God, I do see the power of people and community. I listen to the sermon and usually take something away that I can think about. What you describe is completely foreign to any experience I've ever had with the Church. ...interestingly (to bring it back to the topic), while I have had a few discussions with some of my wife's family that are members of the congregation (uncle is actually the misister and cousins are wardens of the chuch), not a one has tried to overtly convert me. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

02-16-2004, 03:49 AM	#30 (permalink)
thingstodo A Storm Is Coming Location: The Great White North	I think your bumper sticker says it all. Keep it on your car and toss the card. It's kind of obvious which one will last longer. By the way, where did you get that sticker. I love it and would buy a box full if I knew where to get them!! __________________ If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves. Stangers have the best candy.

02-16-2004, 01:48 PM	#31 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	To addres the original question: Preach to those who want to listen. You're unlikely to change the opinions of those who don't, and more likely to turn them against you when they were indifferent to begin with.

02-17-2004, 10:19 PM	#33 (permalink)
Be0wulf Upright Location: Canada	I'm a big fan of Buddhism. You hardly ever have Buddhists come to your door and ask if you've accepted the teachings of Aviloketeshvara Boddhisattva into your heart. ...er...at least not in my neighbourhood anyway.

03-01-2004, 01:43 PM	#34 (permalink)
thespian86 change is hard. Location: the green room.	Thats very funny, Just recently I had a long conversation with a close friend about promoting my religion, which is CHRISTIANITY... (hahaha get it?) But for, what must be, the first time he was right. I try to be as open minded and i'll always be the one who trys to bend to fit others needs... so why be a jerk about this? it's not anyones right to say there beliefs are better, i think the term "Footwashing Baptist" was used in the book "To kill a mocking bird". It's not my right to tell anyone that they are wrong because religion is oppinion not fact. I belive that Jesus Christ lived and that he died to save me from my sins just like a person of another religion believes thier beliefs. Leave it alone and enjoy your freedom to live your life and believe what you want. __________________ EX: Whats new? ME: I officially love coffee more then you now. EX: uh... ME: So, not much.

03-04-2004, 06:16 PM	#35 (permalink)
Xenomorph Crazy Location: St. Louis, MO	I find the Jewish position quite interesting. Rabbis are required to slam the door in your face three times before they will start you on the path to Judaism. I basically speak when spoken to. My friends come from a wide variety of religious backgrounds...two practicing Catholics (I am one), one nonpracticing Catholic, a former Jehova's Witness (now agnostic), an agnostic, a deist, a Muslim, and a now-nondenominational Christian who was once a Southern Baptist. Friendly religious debate pops up between us about every 2 seconds, so that's where I usually get up and 'thump'. Discussions among the Christians are entirely different than, say, discussions between a Christian, a Muslim, and an agnostic. Every one of is capable of articulating intelligent thought and most are fairly conscious in there (non)belief systems, so I find the discussions fun and enlightening. __________________ The facehugger is short-lived outside the egg which normally protects it. Armed with a long grasping tail, a spray of highly-concentrated acid and the single-minded desire to impregnate a single selected prey using its extending probe, it will fearlessly pursue and attack a single selected target until it has succeeded in attachment or it or its target is dead

03-18-2004, 08:50 AM	#36 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	I consider myself a Messianist. I follow my Messiah, who is Yeshua, or Jesus of the Bible. I take the Bible literally where appropriately and understand that in those placees where it is stated as such, it is menat to be taken as metaphor or parable. I was raised as a Methodist, which meant my family got all dressed up each sunday morning and we went to church and we had a marathon to see who could stay awake the longest as the pastor in his long robes droned on and on about things I had little to know interest in and I didn't see my parents do a whole lot about. I always had known about God, but not in any real, cvoncrete sense, just that there was one and that He was around. By the time I was a teenager I had pretty much given up on church and stumbled upon the Boddhisattvas and was studying the Vedas and becoming a Hindu convert. However, much of the disciplines (I hadn't discovered Tantra yet) discouraged my friends and I missed out on a lot of parties, so I gave up on the studies for a while. But not completely. BY the time I entered University I had met a young lady who introduced me to the beauties of the Craft, and the similarities between hinduism and paganism was a very easy transition and soon I was a pagan and on my way to becoming a hedon as well. Much of this time I had a lot of people evangelizing me, not the least of which were family members, but I had no time for that and thought that their attempts were silly and more than a bit backward. I remained a Pagan for a very long time, and did much study in Virginia and at the Caycee center and in New Mexico and other places as well. Along the way, I founf the Tao, pardon the pun. and that helped things as well, but there was a hole somewhere needed filling. Eventually, I met a man who challenged me intellectually to reconsider the Bible from a purely intellectual standpoint. He suggested that Christianity was a Thinking person's faith, and if the dogma and doctrine were removed, what was left was a picture that could not be denied. I was intrigued. I decided to approach the Bible from the same perspective as I had the Koran and the Tao and the Gitas and research it. He leant me a book called "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh MacDowell as a companion to the Bible he had given me, and I began my research. It changed my worldview and my life. In answer to the original question, I believe people place these fliers on cars because they want to get your attention, but they are not certain how to follow through and they are hoping that if you know about God, you probably already have heard about Jesus and will somehow know where to go to find out more. I am very sorry about the bad experiences you had with the giant church you attended. I have had similar experiences as well. Unfortunately, the term Christain has come to mean just about anything anyone wants it to, rather than someone dedicated to Jesus, so I call myself a Messianist- one dedeicated to the Messiah. I know, whoop-de-do. But it clarifies things in my own mind. I fellowship in smaller churches and mentor those whom I am able on the streets. I love volunteer work, because that ius where the Lord lived and so I spend a loit of time doing that as well. On ocassion I will hand out fliers, but not the kind condemning people to hell. That does no good. Either they will come to Messiah or they won't. I don';t know which are which, so I just treat them all like they are. Patience, tolerance, Love. But the Christian duty is at least to inform. __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

03-18-2004, 02:53 PM	#39 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	^^^^^ Here ya go, just do this: