Memnoch

In your "Ask the Rabbi" answer to a Christian woman (Laurie Summers), dated 2/1/2000, you said (in reference to nuns, priests and monks remaining celibate and the Christian religion often seeing the world as something painful and to be feared), "The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World to Come." What is your stance on the use of (America's) illegal substance laws? I'm vigorously straight edge (someone who does not partake in the ingestion of alcohol, drugs, etc for the sake of altered states of mind), and it seems your explanation not only condones but promotes the use of these substances. I realize that Jews are required by their religious laws to adhere to the laws of the countries they live in. Assuming these illegal substance laws *weren't* in place, what would be your position? Can you help me out here?



-----Response-----



Good question. Even so, illicit drug use would still not be permitted by Jewish law, as it is a violation of several commandments such as:

1) It harms the mind and body. This is a violation of "Ushmartem Es Nafshotaichem" - the Torah commandment to guard one's health (Deut. 4:15). There are medical studies relating to marijuana smoking to infertility and/or birth defects. Even if a drug, such as marijuana, does not harm the bodies of certain individuals, it certainly impairs them mentally and leads to faulty understanding, and laziness in Torah and Mitzvahs.

2) Drugs often create a great craving to eat food, even when one isn't hungry. This may lead one to gluttony, which the Torah warns against in the case of the rebellious child. (Deut. 21:18)

3) Drugs create other cravings and to relax one's moral guard, which breaks the commandment of "Don't go after your hearts and eyes," which means that we are to keep our physical drives in check.

4) One who does drugs (depending on the situation) breaks the commandment to honor your mother and father. (Exodus 20:12 and Deut. 5:16)

5 Doing drugs is also in violation of the commandment "to be holy," according to the interpretation of Nachmanides. (Leviticus 19:1)

(see Rabbi Moshe Feinstein - Igros Moshe Yoreh Deah 3:35)

All the best,

Rabbi Tuvia Hoffman
Aish.com

wilbjammin

These are all pretty weak. I don't do drugs, but if these were the best reasons I had not to, I doubt that I'd be drug-free.

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Memnoch

They're weak if you are a person who is living without a strong faith in the judeo/christian god and his commandments, yes. I don't want this to become a thread about whether drugs are right or wrong, I hope to help jews and christians understand where the rhetoric of their faith lies, and see their reactions. In my opinion, someone who is true to their faith takes every commandment completely seriously. Were God to tell a faithful man, "You must hop up and down on one foot for ten seconds when you wake up every morning," that man should do so. Trite, I know.

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wilbjammin

I was talking about this from a Judeo/Christian standard.

Ok, here's why they're weak from a judeo/christian standard:

Not all drugs do this, and if it does make you hungry, then are you eating when you aren't hungry? No, you're hungry, so you're eating.

Basically this means drugs make you sexual and suspends your ability to hold off from doing what you wouldn't do if you weren't on drugs. That may be true if you're abusive with drugs, or if your drug of choice is alcohol of ecstacy... but other drugs and low amounts of those drugs are not going to overwhelm you so much that you have no control over yourself.

If we're talking about children or adolescents, then this is applicable. Of if you want to do drugs later in life around your parents, then maybe. But when you're an adult in your own house?

Actually, I'm sure this is referring to Leviticus 19:2.

Nachmanides says:

(if there's another quote from Nachmanides, let me know... I think this is the famous one that everyone refers to)

So, one shouldn't do drugs because isn't holy. The great yardstick of God. If one doesn't have an inclination in their lives anywhere that drug use is wrong, and this is what they turn to in order to be convinced not to do drugs, it isn't going to sink in. How is drug use not holy? What people do and blame on drug use isn't holy, I'm sure. Again, it is a matter of the actions that accompany drug use and how much one uses. This is very open to interpretation.

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nanofever

I'm glad people like Spong exist so I can keep from laughing when people mention Christanity and rationality in the same sentence. Honestly those verses were reaching and the interps. were pretty liberal to apply them to drug use. I could apply the same verses to computer use or the use of a toaster and the rational would be just as legitimate.

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Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

Memnoch

I appreciate your viewpoints. Any thoughts on the first point made by the rabbi?

Some would say "logic" or "ratonale" is a faith unto itself.

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wilbjammin

Can't really argue with the first one. Drugs aren't healthy, I think often in ways that people don't even realize. But I have a biased opinion, I've seen more horrible drug-related things than most people have - Dad ran a teen rehab center.

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virus

and thus we see the reason that you don't see a lot of Jewish drug crusaders on tv

keep in mind scholarship is uber-important in Judaism, so keeping your mind focused for study is pretty darn important.

i wonder if the good rabbi would make a case for benzedrine?

chavos

there used to be a great site, godmadewine.com...which was all about how we need to stop seeing booze as a curse all the time from a Christian perspective. i'd argue simiarly for most drugs-the only standard is if it harms you or the people around you, or your relationship with God. Save for those thigns...it appears to be a matter of conscience.

flamingdog

I have to ask, how do you think the good rabbi's response would be different were drugs not illegal and, more importantly, stigmatised in the minds of the religious establishment in the same way they are in the majority of the West, and perhaps even the world?

Memnoch

I think it'd be the same. For one, the Rabbi lives in Israel, not America. Very different cultures. Also, as I said in my letter, "assuming these illegal substance laws weren't in place, what would your position be?" He responded accordingly.

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flamingdog

Yes but isn't Israel known to be more conservative than America, if such a thing were possible? Plus, I mentioned the stigma of drugs to distance the argument from the legal implications. I just wonder if a Dutch rabbi might be led to make the same points.

Jay Francis

I think it was John Allegro, one of the translators of the Dead Sea Scrolls, who proposed that the early Christians were indeed as familiar with hallucinogens as were the other mystery cults of the time. He suspects the drug of choice, for having visions and communing with the "holy spirit" was the poisonous amanita mushroom.

Mojo_PeiPei

God created Marijuana, therefore it is inherently good. Go pot smokers!

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Memnoch

God created Satan, therefore he is inherently good. Go ritualistic virgin sacrifice!

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Mojo_PeiPei

God created Lucifer who fucked up and rejected him.

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irateplatypus

i'd like nanofever to apply those same points to a toaster.

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~ Winston Churchill