tiberry

Where did this concept come from? Why do most "christians" have this fixation on judgement - "You are all sinners, and if you don't do what God says, you'll go to hell!"

Why does (would) God care WHAT we do? If God is perfect, then he knew when he created us that we would lie, kill, cheat, steal, and commit every other immoral act and atrocity imaginable. Why then would he judge or punish us for that? Because of his failure to create a perfect man? How could he have failed? He's perfect, remember?

I've got a theory - but before I go into it, I want to prime the discussion with some insights from others...so have at it!!!

Mantus

It comes from the Old Testament. God is an imperfect, vengeful, juvenile and dominating figure in that par of the Bible. Like a spoiled brat who gets mad and smashes things when his Lego creations don’t work the way they are supposed to.

The poor generally enjoy this version of god because it gives them hope. Hope in the form of an indirect weapon against those they hate (the sinners). The politicians love this version of god because it gives them a great tool to control the poor. Control that is weaved though fear and knowledge. The malign individuals love this version of god because they can twist the doctrine to justify their own deeds.

We can observe that in an extremely stratified society the older version of god prevails. While in a less stratified society with a large middle class the Christian version of god prevails. If people have the ability to seek knowledge, justice and health from government institutions they will not worry about obtaining these services from the church. Therefore the purpose of religious institutions turns towards dispensing morality. Hense the current trend away from the older infantile god.

Ill call the above an educated guess.

Mojo_PeiPei

I think that is a stereotype drawn from the more conservative denominations of christianity. And why limit it solely to Christians... why not muslims, they are just as bad if not worse then christians.

God doesn't judge people so much on what they believe, rather how they act. Loving thy neighbor is not now, nor has it been in the past an action/thought limited to Christianity.

And God does know what will happen, but your looking at it in a backward way. Bottom line is God doesn't play a hand in our choices hence the whole free will thing. Life was meant to be lived, God leaves it to us to figure it out.

Further more in regards to hell, I don't see why there is a grey area. Simple concept, if you reject God, if you reject the simple and non-unreasonable laws he put down, you don't pass go and collect $200. Why does everyone have this fixation that if your a criminal and if you don't follow the law, you'll go to jail?

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MSD

"You have fre will, but if you don't use it the way I tell you to, you go to hell."

I refuse to accept that God is a sadistic, fucked-up deity who would taunt us like that. The only logical explanation for this definition of God is that man created God in his image, attributing to him all of our selfish, egotistical, egocentric nature.

I prefer to think of God as benevolent, a creator, not a destroyer.

tecoyah

hmmmm, you go to hell if you fail to follow me, sounds like a judgement to me. I think the focus is on christian, rather than muslim because we in the U.S. have a predominantely chistian society.
So mojo, what if I accept the laws, but not YOUR interpretation of the author, Do I pass go?If not , you can keep your $200 with my blessing, as I would rather be in purgatory than spend eternity with some egotistical, Deity.

Now to the thread topic(sorry couldn't resist)

Seems to me the judgement comes from a general superiority complex. Understandable. If I honestly felt I was the chosen of an all-powerful entity, I would feel pretty bad ass as well.

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Mojo_PeiPei

Well Tecoyah, like I stated, you don't have to be christian to be a good person, no implies otherwise either.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

riptide4070

-First of all, God-fearing people do not have a "fixation" about judgement. Scriptures tell us of God being the Supreme Judge of the universe He created.

-God cares because He loves His creation. The human mind cannot fathom His love.

-He judges humans for sin because He wants to teach us many things before our bodies' die. Sin is one of the first things we need to learn about.

-God did not fail when He created man. He gave us free will so we would not be puppets.

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Mojo_PeiPei

I like what Riptide said, God reserves judgement, it is his alone. People are so quick to judge the church by its people, its imperfect sinners. The fundamental message is whats good, the people can be fucked up.

For the record did God give us free will, or did we not steal it?

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tecoyah

God Fearing? why do these people you refer to have a fear of such a caring teacher. Don't tell me you're afraid he may judge you.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

papermachesatan

I find this view mostly in conservative christians. Moderate christians(especially the ones that have rejected the OT) are much more tollerable.

:::OshnSoul:::

It all started with the finding of the script (or so we are led to believe) of the 10 Commandments that Moses was given from God.
It could be that- A, the whole 10 commandments story was made up,
B- moses thought or decided to make a 10 commandments list and say GOd told him to.
God does not judge- otherwise how could He be all-loving, all-powerful and give us the gift of Free Will? We are truly all created in the image and likeness of Him- his offspring- really no different than Him, except for our Human Form and the fact that once we enter the world we we forget The Truth- some remember a great amount, some don't. It's all about Evolution.
But, God is not superior, He is everywhere you look, everything you touch and hear, everything you dream.
He does not hold anything against anyone, sees us all as holy and equal, and does not cast us into a Hell or send us to Heaven, but to become One with Him again in what we know as the Afterlife.

chavos

if you acknowledge that the world is fairly broken-people hurting each other, etc... then you'd pretty well have to beleive a benevolent God would take issue with said problems. But to quote Rev. Rathbun, "the more i read the book, i can't tell the judgement and the mercy apart."

When judgement of sin is connected and bound up in God's mercy and forgiveness...its not something to be afraid of....its about being refined and restored, no rejection and anger.

tiberry

Still haven't come close to supporting the rationale that would require "judgement" by anyone, including god.

- I don't question that god should reserve judgement, that is - we should not judge eachother.

- The 10 Commandments are just that. There is no associated punishment (hence no judgement) included or implied.


I just don't get it. I understand the implications of judgement - you get to 'live forever' if you listen and do the right thing or ask forgiveness enough (whatever your particular religion believes) or if you don't, you burn in hell. Why? Why the NEED to judge? Is there not enough room in heaven? Or is it simply to coerce us into 'doing what he said' or 'the right thing'. What kind of free will is that? Hardly free will...so that argument looses ground quickly.

Just doesn't seem to be a need to judge.

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Lebell

Christianity's message is the mercy of God, not His/Her judgement.

Anyone who says differently, doesn't understand Christianity.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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sekm

Gods 'rules' for us are there for our own good. If every person on earth followed the ten commandments and also loved one another (well the loving one another thing requires you to follow them anyway doesnt it ? - except the one about having one God) the world would surey be a much better place to live, a utopia ?

We will all make mistakes, and we will all suffer the consequences for those mistakes, but if we ask forgiveness then thats the first step on the road to undoing the damage done to ourselves and others (The simplest example of this is hating someone, how it always burns you inside far more than it hurts them.). We acknowledge it, deal with the consequences (many of which are nonobvious and far reaching) and avoid doing it again. Forgiveness is an attitude thing, not a get out of jail free card we get from chanting some magic words.

I believe that judgement is necessary to send away those whos minds are so warped and broken that they will corrupt heaven, and perish in the full presence of God. (Darkness cannot remain in the presence of light; even the darkness within cannot hide from Gods light.)

If God took away that broken mind that we cling to, he'd be taking away part of what makes us what we are, what we choose to become. (God says he will deliver us from our enemies, but for example if we are 'friends' with our greed, feeding it every chance we get, we will not be delivered from it; this kind of ties in with my view of forgiveness above)

So the only alternative is to send these people away, those so bitter and twisted in their minds that they refuse to love God, even when confronted with him. e.g. playing the victim and blaming God for lifes transgressions, and thereby rejecting him.

The whole hell thing im not sure about, but being bitter and twisted forever cant be so pleasant without anything to distract or stimulate.



God is just like a big parent, he wants best for us, and gives us rules that will protect us, not limit us. He doesnt want to judge anyone, but he cannot let people clinging to the darkness within themselves near him; this would effectively rape the soul and violate the free will given to choose our own destiny. (the light displacing darkness thing)

At least thats how i see it after my short 20 years, and no i cant prove it

And yes, most christians dont understand christianity themselves, are very poor role models, and give it a bad rep.

Im probably one of them.

thespian86

to keep us in line. Easy enough

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prosequence

I think trying to second guess God and His intentions is pretty big task to take on. I personally don't believe we are capable of doing so.
Want an opinion? (If not don't read on)
Here's an analogy. You want to get to the video store, it is three block away and on the right. You have the directions in front of you (commandments). After a block you still don't actually see the video store, so you make a left at the next intersection, cut through two alley ways, run into someones backyard, through the fence and into a lake. So, was this judgement? No, not really, if you would just follow the damn directions then things would work out instead of sitting at the bottom of a lake crying out "God, why have you judged me so!!!"

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Zegel

Arguing about religion is always fun eh? I have a few religious friends that claim both of the following are true:

If you break God's laws, you will go to hell.

Everything that happens is God's will.

How they can be comfortable believing that is beyond me. Seems to me if they're right, then their own God wills his creations to go to hell, and they have no say in the matter.

tecoyah

I would need to be relatively sure of the individual who wrote the directions down, and therein lies the issue.
While I firmly believe the "Ten commandments" are an excellent set of rules to live by(most of them), I am uncomfortable taking directions from a stranger. I know, I know, I just need to "get to know" your god.
This is unlikely if not impossible, considering that your god isnt even the same one as your preachers'(priest,cleric,rabbi,etc...).
And what if the guy who took down the directions as "god" dictated(unless you think it wrote them itself) made a mistake and the video store is actually four blocks down? Do you trust the transcriber in the same way you trust the author?

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

sekm

We have free will, so this is only true in a vague sense since he gave us the free will in the first place.

When bad things happen, God can work through the hearts and minds of people to make some good come of it, but thats a different story.

Christians are people too. Theyre just as likely as everyone else to think they know it all when in fact they dont.

Challenge them on that contraditction, theyll either realise theyre wrong and search for the truth, or their pride and arrogance will kick in and theyll not yield their flawed belief.

sekm

And whos to say that what is meant by a block in 3000BC is the same as what a block means today, especially since we're reading the babelfished version.

Everyone has their own "God" in the same way that everyone has their own reality based on the content of their mind. There is only one God, but no two people will ever view him in the same exact way because attitudes, experiences and beliefs affect their interpretation of events and information.

SecretMethod70

Very true. According to the Catholic faith at least, even non-Christians can be "saved" by being Good People (TM). Not very judgmental if you ask me. In fact, it's pretty reasonable.

Fundamentally true and a very important point here. Anyone who associates fear (of Hell or anything else) with Christianity is simply wrong and has no idea what they're talking about. Christianity is literally about the exact opposite - the absence of fear, of mediocrity, of cynicism, and so forth.

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prosequence

er ... Pardon?

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tecoyah

each individual will interpret "god" or the creator, according to the many aspects of experience and intellect. the chances of your version matching those of another are pretty much nil. while the general outline of this entity may be similar, the details will differ dramatically upon scrutiny.
thus there can be no true "god" for the masses, only many versions of that which has been created for you, either by the entity itself, or one of its many minions.
there is of course, the possibility that one might actually think it has placed a perfect picture of itself wlthin you and hundreds of thousands of others. should one believe this to be truth, my pity is yours.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

meembo

Jesus said that loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself were the two laws upon all others relied. I've taught that to my kids for 20 years, and they turned out fine, and they call themselves Christians. All's well that ends well.

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thingstodo

Mantus.... educated quess or not, what you said matches almost to a "T" with my own educated guess. It actually expanded it.

I primarily see the "control the masses" angle, coupled with the "wow, this brings us great power" thing. Thus the influence of the Catholic church as a political entity.Now that sure sounds like someone, somewhere is giving hope to those masses that have nothing.... why else continue you live. Live to die so you can have everything in heaven. Well, what's the point in staying here then??

I think most has been created by the "minions", and who the heck are they??

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chavos

You may need to tone down your cynicism a bit...that's not my theology at all. Personally, i haven't gotten to a point where i believe in a conscious afterlife. I believe that my Christian faith is lived out in the here and now...come what may.

All this has little to do with what i was saying before of course...i'm not necessarily refering to judgement on a cosmic scale. i'm also talking about what i feel here on earth.

KnifeMissile

I've always wondered about this. It's true that we're all sinners and that we're so fucked up that even those who preach can't be expected to be true to His teachings. However, if we're so fucked up, how do we even know what His teachings are? After well, it's stupid old us that are telling each other what He thinks. What the hell do we know? He is so far above us that we can't possibly understand what He thinks or wants, right? It makes no sense to me....

Lebell

Have you considered the possibilty that there is value in the attempt and that the journey is everything?

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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KnifeMissile

It depends on what you mean by "attempt." Those that tell us what the Word of God is don't sound like they're attempting anything. They claim that they definitively know what God wants! They don't ask you to find your own truth or go on your own journey, they just shove it down your throat and tell you that you'll go to Hell if they didn't...

No, they think they know! No journey involved.
Talk about the blind leading the blind...

Lebell

SOOO, why worry about them?

THIS Christian is telling you it isn't that way.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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tecoyah

I have noticed a little something....interesting. Both chavos, and Lebell are not mainline christian. You two actually seem to grasp the true fundamental message that the books try to express, without taking each line as "gods word".
I commend you for the effort involved in placing a modern face of ancient text. The difficulty, it seems to me, is in the millions who follow the "christianity 2.0 version" and have no desire to try the new Beta. Because many consider individual interpretation of the bible to be a bad thing...they are locked into a cycle of stagnation, and would probably consider you both as "bad" christians. Unfortunately they do make up the vocal majority of christianity, and are thus the societal face projected to the masses.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

KnifeMissile

Well, I "worry" about them for two reasons. First, like spam, although they do no harm to me, they are annoying, no?
Secondly, they actually are doing harm to me by being politically active and shaping legislature to force their blind views of God onto me...

Lebell

Well, I can't speak for chavos, but I have been condemned to hell by one or two of them...which is just silly because I have my own clergy forgive me regularly (every Sunday I go to church, in fact).

Anyway, I think there are MANY more of us than you think, tecoyah, it's just that we are not "squeeky wheels". Our faith doesn't require us to make a big hairy deal of it by shoving it in anyone's faces.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Lebell

Yes, it can be annoying. But this is the price we pay for a free society. I know that in the U.S. Constitution, there is no right not to be annoyed. Can't speak to the Canadian Constitution

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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chavos

Well, i sure can. I think. yeah...i'd echo lebell on this-there are a fair number of us...but we're somewhat scattered, and lack the sort of organization that the religious right has at the moment. but i don't think that's any reason to throw in the towel, and figure that this is the way it will be perpetually.

and yeah...i've been told i'm unsaved, even after my conversion. its all part of the game, imo.

:::OshnSoul:::

I hear ya- Perfect, all-loving, loves unconditionally, and created us equally and in the "Image and Likeness of Him".
Yes, I found that contradictory when growing up in a Christian family. Although I respect the religion, I knew all my life that even if someone told me something or the Bible Tell Me So, that was never enough for me. I knew that just by doing what others say is true, does not necessarily make it true for me. To me, religion is an opinion- for a lot of people it is their Truth, and that is cool, it's what feels right to them. But I chose to read between the lines and understand more of The Bible and it one day dawned on me- that it is a written book by people, not necessarily by God, although God did speak through some people in the Bible, and then through either misconception from the very beginning authors or innaccurate collaboration or piecing of the words of the bible may have led to what seems contradictory. To me, it is stories in a book told by many authors who all have their own perception and experiences. I cannot realize Who I Am by outside sources- but by what I know is true in my heart & listening to my Soul.

Arsenic7

"Knowing god" requires a lot of interpretation and since people will always be imperfect complete interpretation is impossible.

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bt8624

Becaus thats what religion is....man made...man said what "god" said. It was used way back when to strike fear into people so they would convert, and it has carried on to today, except people have much more education and more choices.

:::OshnSoul:::

That is true, but who said we're not perfect? Other people. A book. But how about this: We ARE perfect, as in offspring created from God- and that there IS a way to interpret- and it has to do with listening within to "listen" and to "know" God. Most people rely on outside sources for answers, yet they seem they still don't truly know an answer. Sometimes they find out that the answer is vague or inaccurate. Trusting your insticts, listening to your Soul- your feelings- will tell you the answers- all you need to know. The person you know you can rely on 24/7 is yourself.
Not trying to argue with you here, but showing a different perception on this.