Another "what if" Theology thread for religious and non religious alike - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Tophat665 · 01-02-2004, 01:51 PM

What if
1) There were 100% proof that the God of the Old Testament existed and
2) Similar proof that he was a capricious and evil bastard?

How would that affect your life?
Would it make you wonder if maybe Satan was just getting bad press?

tecoyah · 01-02-2004, 02:23 PM

That would suck.....big time. I can think of nothing that would suprise me more, than to learn that the book is non-fiction.Guess I would just have to kill myself, or maybe Jerry fall-Well, since that would get me out of this creatures realm.

Rodney · 01-02-2004, 02:51 PM

If you look real closely at the old testament, there are mentions early on of other gods. The "false gods" rhetoric only comes on a little later. That "no other gods before me" line doesn't mean that there are no other gods, just that Jehovah's claiming the top spot.

So I guess I'd go worship somebody else. Zoroaster, maybe. You notice that Jehovah never really wiped out any of the Israelite's enemies; maybe a town here, an army there, but that's it. So there's a lot of percentage in being a Philistine, say, the people that'd come over from the coast and whup the Israelites' asses every so often. Or a Persian. Jehovah never laid a hand on the Persians.

ARTelevision · 01-02-2004, 05:03 PM

Life is a lot like that already.

This is probably why such a concept was developed.
Gods pretty much reflect the life situations of those who invent them - as explanations for why things are the way they are.

So my life wouldn't change at all.

rogue49 · 01-02-2004, 05:14 PM

Well, being true to the question, and under THOSE circumstances
Then I guess I'd have to fight against God
It would be a difficult fight, but I'd have to because then he's against my nature.

However, that definition/description of God is not mine,
so I'd have no conflict of interest in reality.

My faith is belief in what I'm a part of,
not someone who tells me what to do, but who I am.

The Creator is not my Lord
The Universe is my Essense.

bermuDa · 01-04-2004, 12:19 AM

i have no faith whether god is real or not. This would probably not affect my world much, unless god was still up to those "evil shenanigans".

chavos · 01-04-2004, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tophat665
What if
1) There were 100% proof that the God of the Old Testament existed and
2) Similar proof that he was a capricious and evil bastard?

Question to me doesn't make sense...mainly becuase i recognize that the Hebrew Scriptures do not paint a singular portrait of God. The God of the Deuteronomist differs from the God of Nahum, who in turn differs from the God of the Elohist, who yet again is different than the God of Daniel.

sort of astounds me that so many basically only see the OT as a repository of negative and evil statements about God. Its a challenging, multilayered set of documents that resists any easy catagorization. i suppose i should be less surprised though...such over generalization was a mistake i made for many years.

Tophat665 · 01-04-2004, 09:35 PM

Chavos, it's not that the OT is bad in and of itself, it's that:
1) According to at least one source ("Who Wrote the Bible", Friedman, Harper 1997, ISBN: 0060630353) the Pentateuch at the very least was written by committee, and that leaves a very confused, even contradictory story to begin with. What ever happened to the Raven in the Flood story? Remember a giraffe is a horse designed by committee.

2) The Fundamentalist pseudoChristian fanatics spouting medieval filth these days base many to all of their arguments in the OT, usually Leviticus and Deuterotomy.

And

3) I said OT god to just pick the root god of the big three - Judaeism, Christianity, and Islam.

Now, with that in mind, if the God that lead the Jews out of Egypt and plagued Job to win a bet and sent his son to death to cleanse original sin and changed his name when he talked to Mohammed, if that God were 1) Proved to exist and 2) Turned out to be randomly evil, where does that leave you?

I ask the question for three reasons. 1) The two threads out there for what if God did/did not exist seem to me to beg for a third question (and maybe a fourth, having to do with, say, what if the Jews or Mormons were the true church). 2) I'm digging back to High school for this one, so it's heavily decontextualized and paraphrased, but wasn't a Roman soldier once asked if he believed in the Christian (or maybe at that time Jewish) God, and he said, "Yes, and I hate him." 3) Finally, the Subgenii are a joke, but, in their joke they postulate the very thing I do for the purpose of this thread: God is all powerful and evil.

I realize there are lots of excellent scholarly answers to the problems of Earthly injustice and pain, and some of them I can even see the point of, but an equally valid answer would be that there is injustice and pain because God is Evil.

I do not believe that to be the case, but it is an interesting idea to kick around.

All that said, does the question make better sense now? If you don't feel like answering it, I actually do understand that, but please let me know if I have clarified it enough.

high_way · 01-07-2004, 05:14 AM

oops wrong forum... my bad

please ignore or delete this.

Jynx · 01-07-2004, 10:55 AM

ya know, if you ask some people (fundamentalists, usually), they'll say that item 1 is already fact and item 2 is impossible, according to the very definition of the god in item 1. moreover, they'll argue that the NT is just the fulfillment of the OT, and that's why both books are equally valid.

as for me: i wouldn't be too worried, because the OT god was centered on the children of israel, of which i am not a member. as for any direct confrontation, if i am presented with a situation that i consider evil, i will not partake in it, regardless of whether or not there is a god involved.

01-02-2004, 01:51 PM	#1 (permalink)
Tophat665 Minion of the scaléd ones Location: Northeast Jesusland	Another "what if" Theology thread for religious and non religious alike What if 1) There were 100% proof that the God of the Old Testament existed and 2) Similar proof that he was a capricious and evil bastard? How would that affect your life? Would it make you wonder if maybe Satan was just getting bad press? __________________ Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

01-02-2004, 02:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	That would suck.....big time. I can think of nothing that would suprise me more, than to learn that the book is non-fiction.Guess I would just have to kill myself, or maybe Jerry fall-Well, since that would get me out of this creatures realm. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha Last edited by tecoyah; 01-02-2004 at 04:36 PM..

01-02-2004, 05:03 PM	#4 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Life is a lot like that already. This is probably why such a concept was developed. Gods pretty much reflect the life situations of those who invent them - as explanations for why things are the way they are. So my life wouldn't change at all. __________________ create evolution

01-04-2004, 12:19 AM	#6 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	i have no faith whether god is real or not. This would probably not affect my world much, unless god was still up to those "evil shenanigans". __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

01-04-2004, 09:35 PM	#8 (permalink)
Tophat665 Minion of the scaléd ones Location: Northeast Jesusland	Chavos, it's not that the OT is bad in and of itself, it's that: 1) According to at least one source ("Who Wrote the Bible", Friedman, Harper 1997, ISBN: 0060630353) the Pentateuch at the very least was written by committee, and that leaves a very confused, even contradictory story to begin with. What ever happened to the Raven in the Flood story? Remember a giraffe is a horse designed by committee. 2) The Fundamentalist pseudoChristian fanatics spouting medieval filth these days base many to all of their arguments in the OT, usually Leviticus and Deuterotomy. And 3) I said OT god to just pick the root god of the big three - Judaeism, Christianity, and Islam. Now, with that in mind, if the God that lead the Jews out of Egypt and plagued Job to win a bet and sent his son to death to cleanse original sin and changed his name when he talked to Mohammed, if that God were 1) Proved to exist and 2) Turned out to be randomly evil, where does that leave you? I ask the question for three reasons. 1) The two threads out there for what if God did/did not exist seem to me to beg for a third question (and maybe a fourth, having to do with, say, what if the Jews or Mormons were the true church). 2) I'm digging back to High school for this one, so it's heavily decontextualized and paraphrased, but wasn't a Roman soldier once asked if he believed in the Christian (or maybe at that time Jewish) God, and he said, "Yes, and I hate him." 3) Finally, the Subgenii are a joke, but, in their joke they postulate the very thing I do for the purpose of this thread: God is all powerful and evil. I realize there are lots of excellent scholarly answers to the problems of Earthly injustice and pain, and some of them I can even see the point of, but an equally valid answer would be that there is injustice and pain because God is Evil. I do not believe that to be the case, but it is an interesting idea to kick around. All that said, does the question make better sense now? If you don't feel like answering it, I actually do understand that, but please let me know if I have clarified it enough. __________________ Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

01-02-2004, 02:51 PM	#3 (permalink)
Rodney Observant Ruminant Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town	If you look real closely at the old testament, there are mentions early on of other gods. The "false gods" rhetoric only comes on a little later. That "no other gods before me" line doesn't mean that there are no other gods, just that Jehovah's claiming the top spot. So I guess I'd go worship somebody else. Zoroaster, maybe. You notice that Jehovah never really wiped out any of the Israelite's enemies; maybe a town here, an army there, but that's it. So there's a lot of percentage in being a Philistine, say, the people that'd come over from the coast and whup the Israelites' asses every so often. Or a Persian. Jehovah never laid a hand on the Persians.

01-02-2004, 05:14 PM	#5 (permalink)
rogue49 Loser	Well, being true to the question, and under THOSE circumstances Then I guess I'd have to fight against God It would be a difficult fight, but I'd have to because then he's against my nature. However, that definition/description of God is not mine, so I'd have no conflict of interest in reality. My faith is belief in what I'm a part of, not someone who tells me what to do, but who I am. The Creator is not my Lord The Universe is my Essense.

01-07-2004, 05:14 AM	#9 (permalink)
high_way Addict Location: Australia	oops wrong forum... my bad please ignore or delete this. __________________ A stranger is just a friend you havent met yet. Impostor of the imposturous

01-07-2004, 10:55 AM	#10 (permalink)
Jynx Upright	ya know, if you ask some people (fundamentalists, usually), they'll say that item 1 is already fact and item 2 is impossible, according to the very definition of the god in item 1. moreover, they'll argue that the NT is just the fulfillment of the OT, and that's why both books are equally valid. as for me: i wouldn't be too worried, because the OT god was centered on the children of israel, of which i am not a member. as for any direct confrontation, if i am presented with a situation that i consider evil, i will not partake in it, regardless of whether or not there is a god involved. __________________ Truth is independant of Belief.