Does space exist? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

powder · 11-20-2003, 10:08 AM

If vacumm is nothing and space is vaccum then space is nothing. How can nothing exist? Nothing is nothing.

John Henry · 11-20-2003, 10:25 AM

This is semantic.
Your postulates are:

1) A vacuum is nothing.

This is false. A vacuum is some space with no matter (or very little matter) in it.

2) Space is a vacuum.

This depends on what you mean by space. If you mean the space between planets and stars, then yes, this is largely empty, but there are various astral objects at different points throughout it, therefore not a vacuum. If you mean the space between, say, the furniture in your living room, this is occupied by air and so therefore not a vacuum.

Problem solved. Both postulates are false, so the argument is void (if you'll excuse the pun.)

The error originates from the intrinsic human notion that everything that exists is material. It helps in this instance to think of the universe in terms of space, time and matter. Time and space do not 'exist' in the same sense as porridge or Steve Guttenberg, but the concepts of space and time are definitley valid.

CSflim · 11-20-2003, 10:43 AM

nicely done!

rogue49 · 11-20-2003, 11:29 AM

BTW...even though Space is a vacuum.
You are only counting matter...which still exist but in minute amounts reletive to the surrounding area.
(like a fly in a football stadium)
But when taken over a vast volume, there are vast quantity existing.

Also do not discount the energies flowing through it,
including all types of the electro-magnetic spectrum.
Nor the atomic & sub-atomic particles that you can actually see or maybe not even detect.
Sometimes these only exist for a micro-second.

The space is still made up of the dimensions that define it.
3 spacial, 1 time (so far) and these are all influenced by the Theory of General Relativity/Gravity amongst other things.
The warps created by large masses have enormous reaches.

So Space is NOT "nothing"
it is something.

phukraut · 11-20-2003, 03:20 PM

isn't it postulated that space (celestial) is not empty at all, but full of dark matter? sorry i don't know much astrophysics so correct me if i'm wrong.

tecoyah · 11-20-2003, 06:54 PM

Dark matter and Dark energy are theory at this point , but likely do exist. It has been proven that pacticles of matter are constantly created and destroyed in the vacuum as well. Quantum mechanics allows and expects spontanious particle creation everywhere...including space.

irateplatypus · 11-20-2003, 07:15 PM

can't find the exact quote, but i remember Einstein suggesting that someday we'll find out that the vacuum of space is actually a pulsing froth of energy and material we have not detected yet. this is just a guess, but i thought it was interesting to think about.

stingc · 11-20-2003, 11:25 PM

The vacuum quantum fluctuations themselves are very hard to measure directly, but some of their effects have actually been observed.

The Casimir effect is the most famous example. Take two parallel, uncharged metal plates, and place them very close to each other. They turn out to attract one another. The effect is explained by realizing that vacuum fluctuations of electromagnetic fields are restricted between the plates (like sound waves resonating in an organ pipe) but not outside of them. This causes a net force.

Amarth · 11-23-2003, 01:44 PM

Space is a mathematical concept that involves the volume of a certain area. If the area is packed full of matter or has no matter at all makes no difference. Consider rephrasing the question.

11-20-2003, 10:08 AM	#1 (permalink)
powder Loser Location: ski town	Does space exist? If vacumm is nothing and space is vaccum then space is nothing. How can nothing exist? Nothing is nothing.

11-20-2003, 10:25 AM	#2 (permalink)
John Henry Addict Location: Grey Britain	This is semantic. Your postulates are: 1) A vacuum is nothing. This is false. A vacuum is some space with no matter (or very little matter) in it. 2) Space is a vacuum. This depends on what you mean by space. If you mean the space between planets and stars, then yes, this is largely empty, but there are various astral objects at different points throughout it, therefore not a vacuum. If you mean the space between, say, the furniture in your living room, this is occupied by air and so therefore not a vacuum. Problem solved. Both postulates are false, so the argument is void (if you'll excuse the pun.) The error originates from the intrinsic human notion that everything that exists is material. It helps in this instance to think of the universe in terms of space, time and matter. Time and space do not 'exist' in the same sense as porridge or Steve Guttenberg, but the concepts of space and time are definitley valid. __________________ "No one was behaving from very Buddhist motives. Then, thought Pigsy, he was hardly a Buddha, nor was he a monkey. Presently, he was a pig spirit changed into a little girl pretending to be a little boy to be offered to a water monster. It was all very simple to a pig spirit."

11-20-2003, 10:43 AM	#3 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	nicely done! __________________

11-20-2003, 11:29 AM	#4 (permalink)
rogue49 Loser	BTW...even though Space is a vacuum. You are only counting matter...which still exist but in minute amounts reletive to the surrounding area. (like a fly in a football stadium) But when taken over a vast volume, there are vast quantity existing. Also do not discount the energies flowing through it, including all types of the electro-magnetic spectrum. Nor the atomic & sub-atomic particles that you can actually see or maybe not even detect. Sometimes these only exist for a micro-second. The space is still made up of the dimensions that define it. 3 spacial, 1 time (so far) and these are all influenced by the Theory of General Relativity/Gravity amongst other things. The warps created by large masses have enormous reaches. So Space is NOT "nothing" it is something. Last edited by rogue49; 11-20-2003 at 11:45 AM..

11-20-2003, 06:54 PM	#6 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Dark matter and Dark energy are theory at this point , but likely do exist. It has been proven that pacticles of matter are constantly created and destroyed in the vacuum as well. Quantum mechanics allows and expects spontanious particle creation everywhere...including space. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

11-20-2003, 03:20 PM	#5 (permalink)
phukraut Addict	isn't it postulated that space (celestial) is not empty at all, but full of dark matter? sorry i don't know much astrophysics so correct me if i'm wrong.

11-20-2003, 07:15 PM	#7 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	can't find the exact quote, but i remember Einstein suggesting that someday we'll find out that the vacuum of space is actually a pulsing froth of energy and material we have not detected yet. this is just a guess, but i thought it was interesting to think about. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

11-20-2003, 11:25 PM	#8 (permalink)
stingc Psycho Location: PA	The vacuum quantum fluctuations themselves are very hard to measure directly, but some of their effects have actually been observed. The Casimir effect is the most famous example. Take two parallel, uncharged metal plates, and place them very close to each other. They turn out to attract one another. The effect is explained by realizing that vacuum fluctuations of electromagnetic fields are restricted between the plates (like sound waves resonating in an organ pipe) but not outside of them. This causes a net force.

11-23-2003, 01:44 PM	#9 (permalink)
Amarth Loser Location: About 50,000 feet in the air... oh shit.	Space is a mathematical concept that involves the volume of a certain area. If the area is packed full of matter or has no matter at all makes no difference. Consider rephrasing the question.