gov135

Kinda wondering. I was over my buddy's last nite and he proceeded to tell me and my girlfriend about how one tropical fish has a better attitude than another, etc. Its a fish!

Does your dog have actual intelligence, or is it human nature to think that way?

Is a dog bright cause the mutt figured out if it brings back the stick it gets a pat on the noggin?

Cats are often characterized as being intellegent animals. Are they really?

Some lady makes a living hosting a tv show on animal planet where she "psychically connects" with you pet. And the show is a ratings success.

Or are we so stupid and lovey-dovey that we associate an animals' routine with actual brains?

So - let me know what you think - do we give pets too much credit, or not enough?

GakFace

I dont' think we give them enough, They all have a personality.. many people seem to ignore them. As for the stick fetching thing.. they have been positively reinforced... so yes, they know that getting the stick results in something good for them, you can do that with just about anything. My sister's fish is funny, he'll try to make you give him food by doing certain things.. and not just trying to eat bubbles, but by putting a show for you.. (its a beta). She aslo has a bearded Dragon... that guy definately has a personality and he knows his name too. If you say Guido..(his name) he turns and looks at you. When i first met him.. he gave me the evil eye, for about a month. Just would look at me strangely every day, and i could just feel it too... But now he just looks at me as a friend. I do believe there is some way to communicate back and forth, I have yet to perform a psychic link tho... For one, Guido used to flail like crazy when you'd pick him up.. but when my mom or sister hold him.. then can hold him by his front "armpits" and he won't mind a bit.. If i do that he'll still flail as he's not used to me as much. Thats a bit of personality and pointing out intelligence as well. He also shows fear if he's in the car with you... the whole sense of moving fast yet not.. and all that.. its obvious that it scares him. Thats gotta count for something. A bird, that is no longer with us, we got that was orginally kept with rude owners. Being so, he rarely would let us hold him, but eventually we could get him to sit on our shoulders... The amazing thing was when he died. About 1 hour before he died, he realized he was dying... As he became really nice and showed us that he wanted to spend his last hour with us. It was really sad as he would cuddle up with us and just show signs of need and want to be loved... Soon after he perished. He knew he was dying... that alone speaks a lot to me.

k, back to my paper

__________________
RoboBlaster:
Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it.

Cynthetiq

my cats smart? nah.... they just know who has the thumbs to open the fridge and the cans of food.... if they had opposable thumbs they'd not give us a second look.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Amaras

Haet to be pedantic, but psychologists haven't even been able to define intelligence properly yet, at least as as far as I've heard. I believe animals have varying degrees of intelligence (like humans). And of the more "intelligent" species, I think many have definite personalities.

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

homerhop

yes they have personality, when im out shooting I can tell how my dogs react and whats happening.They are smart as hell and find wasy to overcome situations very fast.

"Is a dog bright cause the mutt figured out if it brings back the stick it gets a pat on the noggin?"
The dog is very smart cos he is able to get you to do something it enjoys and get rewarded after.
I have lived my life around alot of different animals and I would say very few of them are stupid, and they all have their own traits the same as humans

__________________
its evolution baby

sixate

Animals are not smart. They are dumb and do not feel things like humans. When I see a cat that can shave, get dressed, go to work, pay the bills, cook, hit the gym, and talk I'll change my mind. Let's face it, pets are just fuzzy little creatures that people get attached to for some unknown reason. I don't get it.

clavus

Sixate has an operational definition of intelligence - The ability to shave, wear clothes, etc. Animals con't do those things, so he considers them "not smart" and incapable of human feelings.

OK. So rather than dis sixate ('cause you KNOW you want to) take a look at what he wrote. He defined his terms and backed up his point.

That said, I totally disagree with sixate. Maybe because my view of emotions and intellegence goes beyond the skills associated with having an opposable thumb.

Animals have emotions, many of the same ones that humans have.

Loyalty - I've seen my animals make sacrifices for my family and for eachother.
Emotions like Fear and joy are obvious to anyone who has spent time with a pet.
Love - I believe my cat loves me. Though I can't offer any emperical evidence.

As for intelligence - animals can learn (rember BF Skinner and his mouse mazes), they can think abstractly (elephants create "art" with themes and variations that progress over time), they use language (most notably dolphins, whales and primates), they work together (wolves hunt in packs), they get bored, etc.

__________________
Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

louiedog

sixate, could you do that when you were 10 months old?

With no training at all my dog once dug me out of the snow, rolled me over so I could breath, barked at me, nudged at my head to try and get me up, ran to the house and barked at the door until she realized no one was home, returned to me and curled up against me probably to keep me warm. Her breed was bred to be rescue dogs on ships, but this involved no swimming at all. You can't tell me she didn't know what was going on.

Animals have less developed brains, that doesn't mean they are not intelligent.

WhoaitsZ

I plan to post later on when I am not as tired as I am at the moment, but think of this: don't you think our failure at talking to animals where they understand one of many facts that proove we are not as smart as we claim to be?

there's a fine line between inteligence and ego.

louiedog

wait a second....

"When I see a cat that can shave, get dressed, go to work, pay the bills, cook, hit the gym, and talk I'll change my mind."

when exactly did humans become intelligent? caveman jeff didn't go to the gym or pay any bills

sixate

Of course not. I, just as everyone, was a stupid baby. I was still growing and developing. Can a cat develope into a state where it can do things that I do. Can it ever learn French, Japanese, or German? Get a degree? Shoot some hoops? Of course not. Animals just do what they need to unless a human decides to train them to do little tasks. That is not smart. They copy things. That's all.

sixate

I just thought of something. Maybe cats are smarter than many humans. I bet they don't belive that there's a man in the sky and a demon in the ground who will decide their fate.

louiedog

you developed the ability to play basketball on your own? and somehow taught yourself french without hearing it? i guess our ability to spontaneously know everything without copying is what sets us apart from the animals. that's amazing

TaLoN

and with the whole dog issue. certain dogs act certain ways based on genetics. you take a dog that has been bred as a herding dog and place it near a group of animals. that dog will herd them without even being told to/trained to do so. it is their instincts, not an intelligent decision.

sixate

It takes a thought process to learn a different language that animals don't have. I just used the language thing as an example. When I see a cat perform brain surgery I'll change my mind. I don't think that cats came up with that process now did they?

ARTelevision

Human intelligence would not be what other animals have, would it?

They have species-specific intelligence just like we do.

The problem here is the restrictive definition of intelligence, isn't it?

__________________
create evolution

crewsor

I don't really care if my pet is intelligent or not , all I know is my dog would gladly give its life to protect me. The only thing it ever wants is food, shelter, and a pat on the head. What it gives in return is priceless. Unconditional love and companionship. That's pretty special in my book.

__________________
We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

louiedog

So anyone that can't perform brain surgery is dumb?

The point I was making is that all intelligence is really just learning combined with knowledge we're born with. Animals do the same thing, they just have less cognitive ability. Yes humans are at the top but that doesn't make animals dumb. I'll stop arguing with you when you perform brain surgery.

sapiens

That's a very good point. Non-human animals don't have to solve the same kinds of problems than humans do. (And haven't had to solve the same problems over the course of their evolution). I do think that animals have intelligence, but it is qualitatively different from human intelligence. I think that most dog breeders would tell you that dogs are intelligent and they differ in intelligence. Humans have been breeding dogs and other animals for thousands of years (for specific skills, not just for appearance). Different breeds and different species have different forms of intelligence.

liquid_dreams

my dog is smart but not bright if you get what i'm saying

greytone

I think intelligence is a spectrum and not an all or nothing. The animal kingdom has examples of all points on that spectrum. There is obviously a large gap between humans and apes, that allows us to have abstract thought, appreciate art, and similar examples of human intelligence, but other species clearly demonstrate the ability to learn and understand or to deal with new or trying situations.

Various species demonstrate remarkable degrees of problem solving. An octopus can accomplish several serial tasks to get at food. Marine mammals as well as wild dogs and cats can work together to hunt, and then share the proceeds. Apes have been witnessed using tools. My first greyhound did not understand the concept of "play" when I got her. I had toys which she just ignored. I dog sat for my sister, and by the end of the week, she was having a ball playing with the toys, just like she had seen her "cousin" do. That is learned behavior that was not enforced by any stimuli other than the shear pleasure of the activity itself.

Animals clearly have emotions as well. I don't think they should be too closely compared to human emotions, but clearly they miss certain people or other animals when they leave. They are comforted by contact with other animals and people.

All that having been said, some of 'em are just plain ol' good eatin'.

__________________
I was there to see beautiful naked women. So was everybody else. It's a common failing.
Robert A Heinlein in "They Do It With Mirrors"

KillerYoda

My dog used to eat our house.

So no.

__________________
"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

splck

Comparing dogs and cats to humans is ridiculous. There are dumb pets and humans just as there are smart ones.
I feel sorry for people that don't have or get to experience having a pet...pet owners will know what I mean.

__________________
nice line eh?

sixate

Sorry, but I disagree with you. To say that animals are intelligent is just rediculous to me. I never said that I could perform brain sugrery now did I? I bet you can't either. So the fuck what. That doesn't make either one of us dumb. Just cause a dog can fetch and lead around a blind person doesn't mean that they're smart either. I could do both of those things and that wouldn't make me intelligent now would it?

cchris

I once had a dog that could open the fridge and bring me a beer.
He had bristles that were sharp when he licked me cause he couldn't shave and he certainly wasn't able to recite War & Peace but...............................................................

I think he was at the higher end of stupid though.

__________________
There's a fine line between participation and mockery

GakFace

First sixate, how do you then say humans are smart? I mean we are all "trained' how to do everything we do, thus we show no sign of intelligence either.

From the other spectrum... the problem I find with your definition, is you are stating somethng that is biologically impossible.. They do no have hands, they do not have vocal cords.. at least not to where they can speak like we do... But that doesn't stop anything. I mean for all we know the bird are always making fun of us, and saying "when they can speak in a civilized language such as us, then human will be intelligent".. Ya know? You're reason is like Fish aren't intelligent because they don't have lungs... thats sounds more like a stubborn excuse than a thought out answer. (no offense, remember this is a debate)

__________________
RoboBlaster:
Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it.

sixate

in·tel·li·gence

• the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations
• the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria
• The capacity to know or understand; readiness of comprehension; the intellect, as a gift or an endowment
• Knowledge imparted or acquired, whether by study, research, or experience; general information

That's not my definition. I don't think that a cat, dog, or fish falls under any of that. That makes them pretty dumb to me.

vermin

Having three cats and a dog I can say that all four animals fit three of these four requirements. The cats have learned what the super-soaker looks and sounds like, I've seen them move blankets around to make a comfortable sleeping place, and they bury their shit.

Actually the real difference between man and animal is man's ability to have sex on the phone.

__________________
If puns were sausages, this would be the wurst.

Phaenx

My dog could sleep on the phone. Sort of comical when a dog rings.

__________________
"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

rock_bottom

My German Shepherd was quasi-smart, but one thing about her was her geography. I swear, she learned the layout of about 10-20 blocks in every direction of my house. I could take her out a ways, and then let her lead me, just letting her pick the turns, and she'd always pick a direct path back to my house.

Nhanced1

I personally like to think that my bird has emotions. Whether it its sentient or has any sort of knowledge or problem solving skills like we would associate with a human is a different matter entirely. sure a mouse can be taught to find different ways through a maze, but its forced to because otherwise it won't eat. Knowledge of an area is hardwired into every animal because it needs to know its surroundings in order to find its home after hunting or gathering. Of course my bird is going to be nice to me, I give it food and it knows thats the only way to get food. but maybe that knowledge is proof of intelligence. I dont know.

__________________
"Sell Crazy Somewhere Else, We're All Stocked Up Here," Jack Nicholson - As Good As It Gets

sixate

I can't believe that some people will put their own level of intelligence on the same level of their pets. That's fine by me because I know I'm much smarter than any animal.

christophagust

I wouldn't put pets at human level of intelligence but they are smart in some ways. Our family dogs are so cunning it can be scary. For example, moving chairs to allow them to jump onto tables in order to obtain things from the table. Hiding their favorite toys or most of all putting thier paws on the kitchen or bathroom sink when they feel they want fresh water [even when there is water in the bowl]
There are about a million other things, but too many to post. I've got a great pic of our dog with a lolipop that she stole from the table. It is amusing becuase she is looking away from the camera with an expression that screams 'I have no idea how this lolipop got in my paws'

__________________
who dares wins... and sometimes loses

pazza

my cat is smart, it stand s outside my door until i open it then it runs in front of my feet while emitting a sound that could only be described as cries from the most tortured soul in hell. Bloody mongrel cat, although it does always end in me feeding it

__________________
The above thoughts are not necessarily the thoughts of this user.

ratbastid

My animals <i>appear</i> to be very clever. What's really going on is a subtle kind of learning, where they associate certain things with positive or negative results, and react accordingly. It looks like they can predict stuff or manipulate stuff, when in fact they've just learned how things work.

My puppy is adorable, wonderful, adaptable, and sweet. And she has a brain about the size of a small lemon. She's an AMAZING learning machine, one that is entirely without the capacity for rational or abstract thought.

WhoaitsZ

sixate: like gad said, some animals do not have the physical capability to do an act (ie, no thumbs) so you cannot say that they are to dumb to do it.

i doubt they could do surgery, myself, but i do not have the ego to say i know exactly!

on examples of intelligence. off the top of my head


1) an orangetan (sp) would always find a way to escape his housing at a zoo. he learned to steal any kind of tool and hide it in his mouth.

later on, when the zoo is all buy shut down, he would go unlock his door, then unlock all of the other doors.. then go back to his cage and play innocent

ravens/crows have learned how to use traffic in Asia to crack a certain nut they like to eat but are impossible to crack.

they drop their nut in a line of vehicular traffic. they wait until a car cracks it, then they watch the stop lights. when it is the color for traffic to stop they fly down and feast. when the color for 'go' comes back on, the bird flies away.

3) Dolphines (I forget where) have been hunting with people for awhile now. the chase fish and mullet up into the men's nets and gives the men signals to pull in..... the dolphines have an easier chance at catching some while helpiing humans out at the same time.

4) Alex, an African Grey (a great parrot) can now read. no, i did not say copy or mock... he can read

that's enough examples for now.

sixate

I'll continue to say animals are dumb. Here's a fact. Everything that you own was thout up by and built by humans. Animals can't use their brains like that. To me that makes them dumb. Are some cats smart for cats? I guess so, but in comparison to people they are dumb as rocks.

Eviltree

of course I do, though sometimes I associate human stupidity.

greytone

Of course animal are dumb, which we all know means "lacking the power of speech" or "not willing to speak." That does not mean that they are not capable of using language. Dogs clearly can learn a number of words, probably a few dozen. Any one who has had to spell B-A-T-H knows this. Primates have learned sign language. They had limited vocabularies, but they did learn to use proper syntax. Are they as intelligent as people? Of course not. But some species are capable of some behavior that indicates some level of what we call intelligence (or what everyone but Sixate calls intelligence).

__________________
I was there to see beautiful naked women. So was everybody else. It's a common failing.
Robert A Heinlein in "They Do It With Mirrors"

GakFace

WhoaitsZ: GakFace.. not GadFace


What? Birds don't communicate? Bees don't say where to find food? You need to remember that the HUMAN language is not the ONLY language. One does not need to be VOCAL to communicate... Sign Language says enough. So it is a FACT that animals communicate and thus have a language, thus.. Animals are NOT dumb.

Intelligence -- The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.
Ya know? That is precisly it. You guys keep saying, they aren't smart, they just learn things and apply it.. um.. yeah and that is intelligence.

Sixate: Everything is from Humans... Maybe now, but how did we first try to fly? We mimic'd the birds... I bet if you go back archaeologically, you might find out that we learned things from the animals. But more importantly, you state that animals just copy things... Hmm thats what we do.. We learn things..and then do those... You said when you can see a cat shoot hoops then you'll say its intelligent.. Did you learn how to shoot hoops by copying someone? Hmm you just copied, by that definition, you're not that intelligent.

As always, No offence intended, Just debating and debating needs opposition.